Gentleman Jack
Member
Because there's a rather loud force trying to normalize his behavior and beliefs.
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JonTron Releases a Statement
- Thread starter LionPride
- Start date
- Status
Because there's a rather loud force trying to normalize his behavior and beliefs.
IrishNinja
Member
this might be true, would be great if we could put pressure on them to do so anyway. feels a little bad seeing YT partnerships looking more & more toxic in general, but gg "culture" gets to stay holding that L
rootbeerafloat
Member
The most shocking thing about this is learning that I'd been watching a kids-only show the whole time.
Marx was a Jew, think about it, like a white supremacist would....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Giftpilz
They're coming for our children!
Responding to ideas megaphoned in media/mass-media is normal. He represents a persistent vein of thought that whites are racially and culturally superior, and should have dominance over non-whites. His political thoughts are presented with the outright statement that laws should be changed to support his bigoted outlook. His programming is popular among people young enough that they won't understand the context of his attitudes, and will naturally gravitate toward because of association with his popularity.
I question why you'd see an ongoing discussion and assume the best contribution would be to tell others to talk less about it.
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
Triggerhappytel
Member
Oh look, someone else commenting without having watched the source video. There's a really fucking easy fix for this, but see if you can work it out for yourself.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
"I'm too lazy to bother watching any of the videos."
*people post summaries/outlines of the things JonTron says in the videos*
"Well I suppose it sounds bad, but who knows without watching the video."
????
You mean, like, I have to click to get to the OP, then click on links and then even have to spend my precious time that I could never waste for absolutely anything that is not incredibly important to watch a video? Please.
Please instead construct a device that beams the information directly into my brain. Thank you.
Edit:
In all fairness, I understand if someone does not want to spend 40 minutes to watch two videos, but if one wants to participate in the discussion or be knowledgeable about this issue, one could expect at least some effort.
ETCshow is more concise with 10 minutes, would put that first. Thanks anyway!
CloudyTuba
Member
It was so disappointing to see JonTron interpret his dead-end arguments being effectively countered as being entrapped, as if someone having a solid defense against his idea is some sort of trick.
Jon would make a statement. Destiny would reply with history and statistics and analogies, then Jon would go "Nuh uh uh! I see what you're doing here, you're trying to trap me!" Then he would just bail out on the current topic with a patronizing laugh, leaving it dead in the water. Rinse and repeat.
Like...he doesnt recognize those moments for what they are. In a moment in which he should be considering the idea that his own stance is not as well considered as he previously believed and might warrant reevaluation, he instead labels effective debate as some sort of liberal trick. What?
I know the reason but it's still so shocking to see in action. People who already know in their heart that they are right don't legitimately consider actual debate. If they already know (read: feel) with 100% certainty that something is the truth, then anything to the contrary must have some hidden flaw or trick. "I don't subscribe to that." They won't tell you what it is, just that it must not be right because it doesn't match what they believe.
Jon was not actually there to debate, he was there to feel right and whenever that was threatened he winced and began referring to Destiny as "you people" (referring to the liberals) to smack a label on him that he felt comfortable ignoring.
It's textbook cognitive dissonance and unfortunately it requires a healthy helping of self awareness and detachment to escape from. I'm watching one of my closest friends fall victim to it and I don't know if there's anything I can do to help. Facts are irrelevant in that realm. Destiny was constantly making an effort to understand Jon and Jon hardly made any effort to understand Destiny. That fact alone tells you where their hearts are going into this.
Also interesting to note is how the same struggles we face today as others faced decades ago are being forced to take new forms to exist in the modern day. You had people back then arguing for the white majority against racial mixing as well, but at that time people could still be publicly racist and not everyone considered that a bad thing, or they'd pick whatever threat was in the news (like communism) and use that as justification instead. After the strides taken since then, racism was effectively labelled as a bad and shameful thing. The same ideas still exist today but the people who believe them are now forced to put them through a different lens to believe them because the new baseline is now that racism is indeed a bad thing. It's the same fuckin' thing, though. It's just got a new cover story. It keeps getting new cover stories, but its still the same thing!
It's not necessarily intentional however. People know racism as this big monolithic evil from their history books but they don't recognize the individual components that created it in the first place. They don't realize that what they've been raised with or led to believe is just the same wolf in sneakier clothing passed down to them from a time that's not as long ago as they would like to believe.
It's easy to view the classic racists as mustache-twirling villains but in reality they didn't all necessarily know that what they were doing was incorrect either. Many were god fearing citizens who legitimately believed that they were good people making decisions that were in the best interest of their country. That's another important detail people forget.
Just because you are acting in good faith does not mean you are acting good.
Jon would make a statement. Destiny would reply with history and statistics and analogies, then Jon would go "Nuh uh uh! I see what you're doing here, you're trying to trap me!" Then he would just bail out on the current topic with a patronizing laugh, leaving it dead in the water. Rinse and repeat.
Like...he doesnt recognize those moments for what they are. In a moment in which he should be considering the idea that his own stance is not as well considered as he previously believed and might warrant reevaluation, he instead labels effective debate as some sort of liberal trick. What?
I know the reason but it's still so shocking to see in action. People who already know in their heart that they are right don't legitimately consider actual debate. If they already know (read: feel) with 100% certainty that something is the truth, then anything to the contrary must have some hidden flaw or trick. "I don't subscribe to that." They won't tell you what it is, just that it must not be right because it doesn't match what they believe.
Jon was not actually there to debate, he was there to feel right and whenever that was threatened he winced and began referring to Destiny as "you people" (referring to the liberals) to smack a label on him that he felt comfortable ignoring.
It's textbook cognitive dissonance and unfortunately it requires a healthy helping of self awareness and detachment to escape from. I'm watching one of my closest friends fall victim to it and I don't know if there's anything I can do to help. Facts are irrelevant in that realm. Destiny was constantly making an effort to understand Jon and Jon hardly made any effort to understand Destiny. That fact alone tells you where their hearts are going into this.
Also interesting to note is how the same struggles we face today as others faced decades ago are being forced to take new forms to exist in the modern day. You had people back then arguing for the white majority against racial mixing as well, but at that time people could still be publicly racist and not everyone considered that a bad thing, or they'd pick whatever threat was in the news (like communism) and use that as justification instead. After the strides taken since then, racism was effectively labelled as a bad and shameful thing. The same ideas still exist today but the people who believe them are now forced to put them through a different lens to believe them because the new baseline is now that racism is indeed a bad thing. It's the same fuckin' thing, though. It's just got a new cover story. It keeps getting new cover stories, but its still the same thing!
It's not necessarily intentional however. People know racism as this big monolithic evil from their history books but they don't recognize the individual components that created it in the first place. They don't realize that what they've been raised with or led to believe is just the same wolf in sneakier clothing passed down to them from a time that's not as long ago as they would like to believe.
It's easy to view the classic racists as mustache-twirling villains but in reality they didn't all necessarily know that what they were doing was incorrect either. Many were god fearing citizens who legitimately believed that they were good people making decisions that were in the best interest of their country. That's another important detail people forget.
Just because you are acting in good faith does not mean you are acting good.
Exactly. The true social gains we made during the civil rights movement were that no one would face the indignity of being accused of that most foul thought crime. And now people are undoing all the progress we made by thoughtlessly using the term to describe fellow human beings.
What's more damning is it's not just JonTron.
There are many young white male youtubers with millions of followers trying to mitigate the damage directing the attention and anger to how the media report the story. Boogie, TotalBiscuit, Scarenews etc. They don't agree with JonTron views but they still refuse to classify these views as disdain for non-whites. It's just " controversial opinions " to them.
The outlook is darn grim for non-whites when these "influencers" are normalizing racism for their young audience. Perpetual cycle in the making.
There are many young white male youtubers with millions of followers trying to mitigate the damage directing the attention and anger to how the media report the story. Boogie, TotalBiscuit, Scarenews etc. They don't agree with JonTron views but they still refuse to classify these views as disdain for non-whites. It's just " controversial opinions " to them.
The outlook is darn grim for non-whites when these "influencers" are normalizing racism for their young audience. Perpetual cycle in the making.
mr teaspoon
Member
I can't possibly be adding anything new to this conversation, but...
Just because Jon is seemingly otherwise a nice guy and gives off the vibe that he would be as horrified as anyone else if he walked outside tomorrow morning and saw racial death camps doesn't mean we can't make a list of the beliefs he espoused, put them onto paper, and look at what it adds up to.
In Jon's case, it's racism.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Please tell me this is sarcasm.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
One poster quoted it saying "exactly" and called it a thought crime. I wasn't the only one.
The satire has a clear target though. The fight for civil rights wasn't about the suffering of people being called a racist nor was it about thought crimes. Both posts check out.
To be honest, I don't think it's actually all that new. The internet has just given absolutely everyone a voice. This has done a lot of good things, but it's also brought a lot of really ugly ideas that we thought we'd resolved once and for all back out into the open. It's not as though some perfect United States free of this kind of white supremacy has ever existed; it's just that it lost the argument severely enough back in the 60's that it no longer had a voice in mainstream culture. (At least, not such an obvious voice. It's always been the subtext to what many politicians said about welfare queens and the like.)
I think the best we can do is to throw a spotlight on it, and force the people who support it to own up to that fact. I don't feel that the opinion of the population as a whole supports that sort of garbage - if anything, I think that we're actually getting better on race, if slowly and haltingly. Part of the reason white supremacists are getting so angry and defensive and loud is because they know they're losing.
(And I wouldn't be so quick to say that the people defending him don't agree with his views. I suspect they feel that he's going too far in terms of how he's expressing them and some of the specific stuff he called for, but - again, see what I said above about people honestly believing what they believe. Nobody has any problem laughing at flat earthers or 9/11 truthers or anything else that they clearly believe to be wrong. When they start to shift to being "well that's just his opinion valid opinion and people should stop criticizing him", it's because, on some level, they agree with him, at least to the point where having his opinion scorned makes them feel uncomfortable.)
Tallshortman
Member
If you already call it unreasonable how would it then be justified? What is a justified unreasonable witch hunt?
All of these claims are easily debunkable and are right wing talking points. I love jontron's videos, and I know that deep down inside he's a good person. He just absorbed too many 4chan nationalist memes -- I think that there are two kinds of people on 4chan, the people who believe everything on there, and the people who like to laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.
I hope I don't get flamed for this, but I think that a more patient and intelligent person could've handled this situation in a more altruistic way. How would Carl Sagan or Gandhi have dealt with someone who spouted such nonsense? I think they would've sat down with them and made a passionate case for why they should revise the poisonous ideology they've absorbed. Instead of making him out to be an inhuman wretch that must be disposed of, I think that using logic, history, and empathy one could've persuaded Jon to the good side. I think reading the book Guns Germs and Steel pretty much dispels racism. I don't see it having much effect on nationalism, but it certainly divorces the idea that any race is inherently one way or another. There's a video on youtube of a black guy who meets with KKK members with open arms, and it was really touching to see that reversal on the ex-KKK member's faces 'Wow, maybe they aren't so bad after all'. Jontron is no where near as corrupt minded as a KKK member, so I think the same compassion can be applied to him.
I see so much flaming and angry posting, and for what? Does acting angry on the internet solve anything? What if we solved these problems with compassion instead of animosity is all I'm saying.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Rubbish.
The second kind of person is providing cover for actual psychopaths and thinks it's hilarious. I wouldn't excuse them as 'good people deep down,' considering the rhetoric and behavior they are 100% complicit with.
If there's anything the Trump administration has teached us, it's that white supremacists are massive hypocrites.
excelsiorlef
Member
All of these claims are easily debunkable and are right wing talking points. I love jontron's videos, and I know that deep down inside he's a good person. He just absorbed too many 4chan nationalist memes -- I think that there are two kinds of people on 4chan, the people who believe everything on there, and the people who like to laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.
I hope I don't get flamed for this, but I think that a more patient and intelligent person could've handled this situation in a more altruistic way. How would Carl Sagan or Gandhi have dealt with someone who spouted such nonsense? I think they would've sat down with them and made a passionate case for why they should revise the poisonous ideology they've absorbed. Instead of making him out to be an inhuman wretch that must be disposed of, I think that using logic, history, and empathy one could've persuaded Jon to the good side. I think reading the book Guns Germs and Steel pretty much dispels racism. I don't see it having much effect on nationalism, but it certainly divorces the idea that any race is inherently one way or another. There's a video on youtube of a black guy who meets with KKK members with open arms, and it was really touching to see that reversal on the ex-KKK member's faces 'Wow, maybe they aren't so bad after all'. Jontron is no where near as corrupt minded as a KKK member, so I think the same compassion can be applied to him.
I see so much flaming and angry posting, and for what? Does acting angry on the internet solve anything? What if we solved these problems with compassion instead of animosity is all I'm saying.
Oh christ he can show compassion first...
He was sat down and talked to. That's how this all came out.
All of these claims are easily debunkable and are right wing talking points. I love jontron's videos, and I know that deep down inside he's a good person. He just absorbed too many 4chan nationalist memes -- I think that there are two kinds of people on 4chan, the people who believe everything on there, and the people who like to laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.
I hope I don't get flamed for this, but I think that a more patient and intelligent person could've handled this situation in a more altruistic way. How would Carl Sagan or Gandhi have dealt with someone who spouted such nonsense? I think they would've sat down with them and made a passionate case for why they should revise the poisonous ideology they've absorbed. Instead of making him out to be an inhuman wretch that must be disposed of, I think that using logic, history, and empathy one could've persuaded Jon to the good side. I think reading the book Guns Germs and Steel pretty much dispels racism. I don't see it having much effect on nationalism, but it certainly divorces the idea that any race is inherently one way or another. There's a video on youtube of a black guy who meets with KKK members with open arms, and it was really touching to see that reversal on the ex-KKK member's faces 'Wow, maybe they aren't so bad after all'. Jontron is no where near as corrupt minded as a KKK member, so I think the same compassion can be applied to him.
I see so much flaming and angry posting, and for what? Does acting angry on the internet solve anything? What if we solved these problems with compassion instead of animosity is all I'm saying.
Can you tell me how Gandhi main contribution to the world was healing racist wounds by his words/presence?
Because the Historical record speaks to his failures, Non cooperation being a highly effective form of economic sanctions to the UK eventually resulted in in the Chauri Chaura incident and resulted in him calling off the non violent non cooperation movement because surprise if economic sanctions are effective the colonial authorities will eventually react through force, and the non violent protests turn violent and he realised it would spiral out of control.
His calm righteous arguments of acceptance, womens rights, religious plurality, and ethnic plurality resulted in 3x 9mm bullets fired from a Beretta by a ultra hindu nationalist well after the violent partition of what became Pakistan and India.
Tell me if paradigm shifts occur because everyone likes the new idea/paradigm, or eventually those whom hold to the new paradigm by demography and mortality take over the structures the used to propagate the old paradigm.
How would Jontron be "healed" by Gandhi, a man influenced and mentored by Leo Tolstoy (a comulist), and the latter's theories of nonviolence being the most effective strategy for a India free of colonialism.
What did Orwell a contemporary think of Gandhi's methods? When confronted by the Nazi's as opposed to 'an old-fashioned and rather shaky despotism which treated him in a fairly chivalrous way', not a totalitarian Power, 'where political opponents simply disappear. (Orwell, review of Louis Fischer's Gandhi and Stalin, The Observer, 10 October 1948, reprinted in It Is what I Think, pp. 452–453.)
Or how the Jew's should have handled NAZI insanity : "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."Gandhi believed this act of "collective suicide", in response to the Holocaust, "would have been heroism".
(George Orwell, "Reflections on Gandhi", Partisan Review, January 1949.)
Gandhi was a great man. But the idea that when faced with race supremacist who wish to murder you, that they should be confronted by your en mass suicide is not helpful, not for the victims.
Lazlo Woodbine
Member
His "apology" video currently sits at a 36k to 9k like/dislike ratio and the comments (of which "Fuck NeoGAF" sits close to the top) are almost indistinguishable from what appears below a Breitbart article. Depressing.
EDIT: People attempting to 'middle man' this shit ("I'm not far left or far right, he's misunderstood") are more offensive to me then more obvious bigots because it's their insidious brand of faux non-partisanship that has helped normalise these sorts of attitudes.
EDIT: People attempting to 'middle man' this shit ("I'm not far left or far right, he's misunderstood") are more offensive to me then more obvious bigots because it's their insidious brand of faux non-partisanship that has helped normalise these sorts of attitudes.
Alt-riechers run "like" bots. It's meaningless.
Lazlo Woodbine
Member
With the current political climate, it's difficult to know to what degree that is true.
It's sad because it gives more impressionable viewers a sense that the bigots have captured public opinion and moral authority.
Prodigal Son
Member
lmao no they don't.
This isn't the result of some botting. It's just his audience liking the video. The majority of JonTron viewers still like the guy. There's no reason that reality wouldn't be reflected in the like/dislike bar on the dude's own channel.
They have. We're losing. Generation Z is going to be fucked.
His reddit sure isn't enjoying this
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
Bluemongoose
Neo Member
Okay, so I saw his "this is what I really mean" post and JonTron looked more calm and easily approachable in conversation. I was expecting a vitriol-spewing mess,which is really not a far cry from what he was during the "debate." I watched 30 minutes and couldn't continue. Just wince inducing.
As idealistic as Destiny was, he DID try to debate. JonTron resorted to "there you go again" whenever he couldn't respond intelligently and resorted to trying to rewrite history (Great Scott!). I really hope he doesn't believe all the regurgitated crap he was parroting. But even if he doesn't, I think it was more of a " I don't care how wrong you'll prove me. I have a right to believe this and I will. Fuck the left!" That's what I got.
As idealistic as Destiny was, he DID try to debate. JonTron resorted to "there you go again" whenever he couldn't respond intelligently and resorted to trying to rewrite history (Great Scott!). I really hope he doesn't believe all the regurgitated crap he was parroting. But even if he doesn't, I think it was more of a " I don't care how wrong you'll prove me. I have a right to believe this and I will. Fuck the left!" That's what I got.
First of all, thank you for the history lesson. I should've done my research before I name dropped.
You have a much more nuanced view of Gandhi than I. I'm referring to the layman's view of Gandhi which is one of empathy and peace. I didn't know about him being a proponent of mass suicide and I wasn't really thinking about how he wanted independence from Britain which I'm sure is confusing the point I was trying to make, since Jontron's is one of white nationalism. All I'm saying is that, we've all been yelling at each other on the internet, but I rarely see either side reaching out to each other in a more compassionate way. See Jontron as a patient, how do you heal the sickness in his heart? Just like understanding that the superiority of race is hogwash and really comes down to geographical randomness, I believe there has to be some sort of remedy for the xenophobia that is plaguing america today.
What's ironic about this whole thing is that the reason nationalism is on the rise is directly in relationship to immigrants, obviously they can't just say "I'm scared of brown people" because racism is actually a bad word now, so the argument they fall back on is "Well, we should be able to protect our cultural identity and borders" and all the while Jontron is an Iranian, the very kind of person that would've not been let in. There's a huge gaping flaw in the viewpoint he's adopted.
excelsiorlef
Member
The literal episode that caused this mess in the first place was someone reaching out and talking to him with compassion and directly trying to show him where his views err.... that;'s how the worst of his views came out...
Prodigal Son
Member
Are you trying to say its a bad thing that we know he believes these things in the first place? This is where you people lose me.
If reasonable people weren't willing to reach out and engage in discussion and debate with these fucking people we wouldn't even now know the extent of their shitty beliefs. Discussion is good. At its best it opens the eyes of the dumbfucks. At its worst it exposes the shittier viewpoint they typically don't want to be forthcoming about. It exposes them. Milo only sank because the Drunken Peasants and Joe Rogan had him on in the first place.
Not everyone is comfortable debating white nationalists. I totally get that. You're not obligated to either. But we really shouldn't shit on those who try.
excelsiorlef
Member
I'm shitting on no one.
I'm saying JonTron is not owed any compassion and that I believe it dubious to claim he can be saved with it given it's only brought the worst of him out thus far.
If people want to challenge him compassionately go forth but I reject the posts that judge those who offer him none, and apologize or try to downplay his behavior.
Read the very first post in that chain that acts like Destiny didn't do exactly what is being put forth as the cure for JonTron's "sickness"
Also you people?
Prodigal Son
Member
Not necessarily but maybe? Also these debates are public. More than just JonTron's opinions are on the line here. It is beautiful when someone like Destiny comes along and absolutely gutterfucks every shitty idea JonTron brings onto the table. It's not just about the individuals debating. Its those watching too. We can't let nationalism and liberalism exist in their own bubbles. When the ideas meet, the better ones come out on top. If you truly believe your ideas are superior (hint, they are), there should be no fear in facing shitty archaic beliefs head on.
Think about it like the Presidential debates. Hillary Clinton wasn't hoping to change Donald's mind on his shitty-ass policy. It's for the people looking who are still coming up with their opinion. Lots and lots of people are looking and when we refuse to talk with them outright, it makes us look like we've the weaker opinion.
If sane liberals challenged his nonsense views in their infancy, maybe he wouldn't be where he is today. I think 2017 JonTron is probably beyond saving. Doesn't change the principle of the matter.
And by 'you people' I just meant gaffers. I tend to stray far, far from the orthodoxy here when it comes to issues of speech. I hope that's cool.
pizzaparty
Member
I can't tell if this is ironic.
excelsiorlef
Member
Yeah I totally remember how Civil Rights were won by not talking about racism...
Prodigal Son
Member
Maybe. Sorry if I'm fucking up in properly keeping up with the discussion.
All I'm saying is we shouldn't be afraid to have debates with these people. We aren't showing him compassion if we're destroying him in a discussion.
Pellegri Testament
Member
This trash believes certain races should not exist and that white people should control everything, get the fuck out of here with "showing compassion" towards someone like that.
Prodigal Son
Member
do u wanna try reading the post you replied to again, dawg
excelsiorlef
Member
1) What does GAF orthodoxy on speech even mean in this context?
2) No one knew about the extent of his racism until 2017 when someone sat him down and politely talked to him
3) Liberals can't be held responsible for racist people being racist. You don't drive someone to being a white nationalist by being a mean liberal. That's not how racism works. You don't all of a sudden just believe in the genetic inferiority of minorities because some liberal wasn't nice to you... Insane liberals (whatever that even means) didn't cause JonTron to become a white nationalist
4) Not showing JonTron compassion is not being an insane Liberal either (if that's what you're insinuating)
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