• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Kayo Satoh: Sexy Japanese model, Street Fighter fan, and...

Status
Not open for further replies.

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
I kind of get what you're saying shanadeus, but michael jackson is a horrible analogy. He's black.
shidoshi said:
I think if you really want to learn more about the topic, one good place to start would be to read through the TransGAF here on GAF. You'll find stories from people about what they've gone through, why they made the decisions that they've made, and the search to figure out who they really are.

I don't at all look down on people who don't understand this topic, because it can be very complex and is something that still isn't out and public a lot of the time. The problem, as I see it, is that as of now what is assumed is that "penis = boy, vagina = girl".

That would be fine if that's what made people who they are, but it isn't. I'm going to assume you're a male, and forgive me if I'm wrong in assuming that. Are you a guy because you have a penis? What I mean is, is that the entire reason you'd consider yourself male? My guess would be probably not. You're probably a guy because you have a penis, AND because you feel like a guy, relate to being a guy, think like a guy, identify yourself with a guy, so on and so on.

What happens sometimes is that, for some reason, not all of those aspects are true. You have somebody who is born into a male body, but then they don't identify with being a guy, they don't see themselves as a guy, they don't relate to being a guy, none of that. For all of those things, they instead feel like and see themselves as female. Or, you have somebody who is born in a woman's body, but does have all of those feelings of identifying with being a guy, thinking like a guy, so on and so on.

I think the first step to getting better at dealing with gender issues is then asking ourselves what is more important about a person: who they are physically, or who they are mentally/emotionally. Now, I think most would say the latter. Is Stephen Hawking who he is physically, or who he is mentally/emotionally?

If you really want to give the topic some though, ask yourself a few simple questions as a start. If you are a guy now, but tomorrow woke up and you had a woman's body, which gender would you relate with? It's a simple question, but really answers a lot. If you suddenly had a woman's body, would that make you a woman, or would the fact that who you are is male be more important than that? Or look at it in another, somewhat sillier way. If you take a Toyota Prius, take the outside body off, and put on the chasis a Ford pickup body, what kind of vehicle is it? Is it a Toyota, or a Ford? A car, or a truck?

If we can say that who a person is is who they are inside, not outside, then we should allow ourselves to say that a person who is male physically but in every other way identifies with being female may indeed be a female. I know how hard it can be to accept that, because we have it so ingrained in us that the equation for what gender you are is as simple as a check of the crotch. But again, if we're then smart enough to understand that there's far more to being a human being than that, then we need to start to accept that life can't always be explained by such simple answers.
Thanks, this does help out a lot. Still kind of lost on some things though... I'll dig up and look through the TransGAF thread later on.
 

mollipen

Member
harSon said:
I always wondered, is this truly an indicator of someone being born into the wrong body? Because outside of the biological and phenotypic differences between men and women, everything we consider to be gender related are socially constructed.

I think you have to look at people on a case-by-case status, and see what their personal situation is. If I were to say that I should have been born a girl instead of a guy because I like the color pink and want to play with dolls, that is an issue I face directly because of what society has dictated to me are gender roles.

When we start to get to people who would truly be labeled as transgender in this situation, the feelings of disconnect are far, far deeper. Of course, that's why it's so important to find quality sources of help in this matter, to determine who you really are and what your situation is.



Squire Felix said:
Doesn't get anymore male then having a dick.

So if you're a guy, get into a serious accident, and they have to cut off your penis, are you then a girl?
 

btf1980

Member
Shanadeus said:
Does he look like a toddler?
Way to miss my reasoning.
If he was like a toddler in both mind and body then yes, I'd consider him a toddler.
Even if he's biologically a 40 year old man.

Both mind and body huh? OK, if you are going to include the aspect of the mind into the equation, you are definitely treading on murky waters because you have no clue who a "white appearing" black man thinks he is. The MJ example is not really applicable with transexuals at all, because you are clearly just judging by appearance only. You know nothing about the mental aspect of the person. With respect to gender or age, the mind is applicable, but with matters of racial appearance? Eh...

Furthermore, Michael Jackson did not look "white". He looked like he was void of melanin, like a ghost or I dunno, someone with a disease called vitiligo.
 

harSon

Banned
DY_nasty said:
I kind of get what you're saying shanadeus, but michael jackson is a horrible analogy. He's black.

I don't agree with what you guys are saying but I think someone of mixed ancestry would be a better fit for the analogy you're trying to make. Someone like Rashida Jones or Katja Shchekina for example.
 

mokeyjoe

Member
btf1980 said:
Both mind and body huh? OK, if you are going to include the aspect of the mind into the equation, you are definitely treading on murky waters because you have no clue who a "white appearing" black man thinks he is. The MJ example is not really applicable with transexuals at all, because you are clearly just judging by appearance only. You know nothing about the mental aspect of the person. With respect to gender or age, the mind is applicable, but with matters of racial appearance? Eh...

Furthermore, Michael Jackson did not look "white". He looked like he was void of melanin, like a ghost or I dunno, someone with a disease called vitiligo.

Er, well when it comes to black/white skin tone the amount of melanin is all the only difference.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
harSon said:
I don't agree with what you guys are saying but I think someone of mixed ancestry would be a better fit for the analogy you're trying to make. Someone like Rashida Jones or Katja Shchekina for example.
Well thats not exactly it. Michael Jackson really shouldn't be used because he's black - just because he suffered from a disease and did all sorts of crazy things to himself, he's still black. That doesn't change. The only black man who is white on the inside is Uncle Ruckus.
 

btf1980

Member
shidoshi said:
So if you're a guy, get into a serious accident, and they have to cut off your penis, are you then a girl?

No, but I wouldn't see the point of living personally. Being dickless would be terrible. Having a dick is a big part of being a man, fuck all that noise. Any man would tell you this. A dick does not define me, but damn it's a HUGE part of who I am as a man. Walking around without a cock...jesus! Nope, I wouldn't feel like a complete man. Sorry if it this doesn't fit into your paradigm of dickless dudes.
 

Dresden

Member
btf1980 said:
No, but I wouldn't see the point of living personally. Being dickless would be terrible. Having a dick is a big part of being a man, fuck all that noise. Any man would tell you this. A dick does not define me, but damn it's a HUGE part of who I am as a man. Walking around without a cock...jesus! Nope, I wouldn't feel like a complete man. Sorry if it this doesn't fit into your paradigm of dickless dudes.
You should just be honest with yourself and admit that you didn't think this shit through. Unless you're so dumb that you'd kill yourself if you were ever castrated.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
btf1980 said:
No, but I wouldn't see the point of living personally. Being dickless would be terrible. Having a dick is a big part of being a man, fuck all that noise. Any man would tell you this. A dick does not define me, but damn it's a HUGE part of who I am as a man. Walking around without a cock...jesus! Nope, I wouldn't feel like a complete man. Sorry if it this doesn't fit into your paradigm of dickless dudes.
I'd rather lose my dick than lose arm or leg...
 

btf1980

Member
mokeyjoe said:
Er, well when it comes to black/white skin tone the amount of melanin is all the only difference.

Sure, but white people still have melanin, just smaller amounts than darker people. Vitiligo is when melanocytes (cells that produce melanin) stop working. MJ had no melanin. Big difference from being white.
 

btf1980

Member
Dresden said:
You should just be honest with yourself and admit that you didn't think this shit through. Unless you're so dumb that you'd kill yourself if you were ever castrated.

Castrating me would be killing me. Sorry if you disagree.
 

TUSR

Banned
shidoshi said:
I think you have to look at people on a case-by-case status, and see what their personal situation is. If I were to say that I should have been born a girl instead of a guy because I like the color pink and want to play with dolls, that is an issue I face directly because of what society has dictated to me are gender roles.

When we start to get to people who would truly be labeled as transgender in this situation, the feelings of disconnect are far, far deeper. Of course, that's why it's so important to find quality sources of help in this matter, to determine who you really are and what your situation is.





So if you're a guy, get into a serious accident, and they have to cut off your penis, are you then a girl?
Car accident is completely different then being born with one.
are you making up excuses to like pretty boys?

try harder
 
There is a very emotive and sensitive episode of Law & Order that relates to gender identity. It revolves around the story of a couple, of which the girl was in the process of hormone treatment but working towards a full operation. Her boyfriend was completely naive to her biological gender; in other words he did not know the truth. Eventually one of the detectives let it slip, and in disbelief, immediately went to his girlfriend and grabbed her by the crotch - to which he fell back in shock and horror. She is furious and breaks in tears. He runs out of the room to go to the bathroom. There he later takes an overdose of pills and kills himself. Before he died, he was crying and clearly hurt. In hindsight, he probably felt that the person he knew had died and had lost her.

I've already said too much about the episode but the tragedy does not end there, certainly for the girl who has just seen her life blown apart in an instant. I've often wondered how I would deal with it if I was in love before finding out
 

Shanadeus

Banned
btf1980 said:
Sure, but white people still have melanin, just smaller amounts than darker people. Vitiligo is when melanocytes (cells that produce melanin) stop working. MJ had no melanin. Big difference from being white.
Fine, he's whiter than white. The skin notwithstanding he still acted like a white, I don't consider him no brother after all his antics.
 

Threi

notag
btf1980 said:
No, but I wouldn't see the point of living personally. Being dickless would be terrible. Having a dick is a big part of being a man, fuck all that noise. Any man would tell you this. A dick does not define me, but damn it's a HUGE part of who I am as a man. Walking around without a cock...jesus! Nope, I wouldn't feel like a complete man. Sorry if it this doesn't fit into your paradigm of dickless dudes.
This is probably a sensitive subject to certain people but dammit this post made me laugh :lol
 

TUSR

Banned
Shanadeus said:
Fine, he's whiter than white. The skin notwithstanding he still acted like a white, I don't consider him no brother after all his antics.
he bleached his skin completely to look like a white man, and hence all his constructive surgery.

if you think its all from vitiligo you're dumb
 

Shanadeus

Banned
Dresden said:
I just feel sad for anyone who has such a fixation about their penis.
I can totally see where he's coming from though.
Nowadays you can get a pretty decent replacement for a hand, with a sense of touch perhaps and a wide range of motions.
But the cock prosthetic?

No luck there.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
btf1980 said:
This is dumb. I guess prosthetic limbs don't exist in your universe.
In this universe, prosthetic limbs are crap. A hook where my hand used to be? You think soldiers are coming back home to get fresh cyborg bodies or something?

All I need my dick for is pissing standing up and sex/fapping. Hell, I'd probably get a lot more work done if I didn't have a dick. Sex isn't so important that I'd give up an arm for. I don't think any sane person would say that.
 

mollipen

Member
Squire Felix said:
Car accident is completely different then being born with one.
are you making up excuses to like pretty boys?

try harder

I'm point out that your "it has a dick thus it's a guy" rule isn't exactly the end-all be-all rule.
 

Nameless

Member
Masked Man said:
Good for her for having the courage to come out. :D
Also, I'm very pleased to hear that she's been receiving so much support from people. Gender identity is a touchy and confusing subject, but the more people that discuss it, the more likely we are to make progress toward widespread understanding.

It's really not confusing at all. How you feel doesn't change what you are on an anatomical level.
 

Shanadeus

Banned
Squire Felix said:
he bleached his skin completely to look like a white man, and hence all his constructive surgery.

if you think its all from vitiligo you're dumb
So he did a couple of cosmetic surgeries here and there in order to look white (thus confirming a desire to become white, aka a white mentality) yet he's still no whitey because of his genes?

That's just silly.

Nameless said:
It's really not confusing at all. How you feel doesn't change what you are on an anatomical level.
No one has said that.
 

Dresden

Member
Shanadeus said:
I can totally see where he's coming from though.
Nowadays you can get a pretty decent replacement for a hand, with a sense of touch perhaps and a wide range of motions.
But the cock prosthetic?

No luck there.
I'd rather lose an arm or a leg than the cock, true. But it wouldn't be the end of my life if my dick got chopped off (although I'd be pretty fucking depressed).
 

btf1980

Member
Shanadeus said:
Fine, he's whiter than white. The skin notwithstanding he still acted like a white, I don't consider him no brother after all his antics.

MJ acted like a white? What the fuck does that mean? White guys sleep in giant beds with prepubescent boys and offer them "jesus juice"?

I'm black, tell me what the brothers act like.
 

TUSR

Banned
Shanadeus said:
So he did a couple of cosmetic surgeries here and there in order to look white (thus confirming a desire to become white, aka a white mentality) yet he's still no whitey because of his genes?

That's just silly.


No one has said that.
if i wear a rabbit suit for the rest of my life, am i a rabbit or a normal man
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Shanadeus said:
So he did a couple of cosmetic surgeries here and there in order to look white (thus confirming a desire to become white, aka a white mentality) yet he's still no whitey because of his genes?

That's just silly.
No no no... a skin disease and the following fucked up procedures of a crazy person made to appease his abusive father doesn't make turn a black guy white all of a sudden. As fun as it is to say it, its not really true.
 
Vigilant Walrus said:
Is it possible to get a prostate penis? (not a strap-on)?
I watched a special on this (forgot which channel). A guy loses his penis and balls in a motorcycle accident. Few years after the incident he learns about all the crazy new ways of getting a new penis. One doctor was specializing in creating penis out of the most sensitive tissues from the body. Again, I don't particularly recall everything. But the guy goes with a doctor who creates a prosthetic penis for him powered by a small manual hand pump. You basically pump your penis into an erection and enjoy sex. The special was really eye opening for me because the whole contraption down there seems awfully complex. For doctors to recreate the senses and the mechanism of it seemed pretty awesome to me.
zero margin said:
but not better
I was hinting at LSD but whatever.

I KID
 

btf1980

Member
DY_nasty said:
In this universe, prosthetic limbs are crap. A hook where my hand used to be? You think soldiers are coming back home to get fresh cyborg bodies or something?

All I need my dick for is pissing standing up and sex/fapping. Hell, I'd probably get a lot more work done if I didn't have a dick. Sex isn't so important that I'd give up an arm for. I don't think any sane person would say that.

A hook? What era are you in? Some prosthetic limbs today, especially legs are state of the art. Honestly, anyone bringing up hooks when talking about prosthetics has been watching too many films. Pirates have hooks.

I bet they use leeches for blood poisoning in your era as well.
 

Jenga

Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
There is a very emotive and sensitive episode of Law & Order that relates to gender identity. It revolves around the story of a couple, of which the girl was in the process of hormone treatment but working towards a full operation. Her boyfriend was completely naive to her biological gender; in other words he did not know the truth. Eventually one of the detectives let it slip, and in disbelief, immediately went to his girlfriend and grabbed her by the crotch - to which he fell back in shock and horror. She is furious and breaks in tears. He runs out of the room to go to the bathroom. There he later takes an overdose of pills and kills himself. Before he died, he was crying and clearly hurt. In hindsight, he probably felt that the person he knew had died and had lost her.

I've already said too much about the episode but the tragedy does not end there, certainly for the girl who has just seen her life blown apart in an instant. I've often wondered how I would deal with it if I was in love before finding out
Irresponsible on the girl's part for lying to her boyfriend. Don't get angry at me for the comparison GAF, but it's like going into a relationship without telling someone you have a child, are married, or having an STD or some shit. You're pulling them into a relationship with a big life-changing secret. That is never positive.


also, i forget law and order still exists these days
 

Shanadeus

Banned
DY_nasty said:
No no no... a skin disease and the following fucked up procedures of a crazy person made to appease his abusive father doesn't make turn a black guy white all of a sudden. As fun as it is to say it, its not really true.

He looks white, he wants to be white (whether that's because of the abuse and taunts from his father isn't really relevant or proven) and in the end he ends becoming an eccentric, white pop-artist with zany habits and wishes. This is just my personal opinion, he just strikes me as a white person - his genes (which themselves are barely relevant to racial identity) aren't even relevant to me.

Jenga said:
Irresponsible on the girl's part for lying to her boyfriend. Don't get angry at me for the comparison GAF, but it's like going into a relationship without telling someone you have a child, are married, or having an STD or some shit. You're pulling them into a relationship with a big life-changing secret. That is never positive.


also, i forget law and order still exists these days

That is something I fully agree with, you don't enter a relationship where trust and honesty are the most important things without mentioning something as important as you not being biologically male/female and thus might not be able to fulfill certain dreams (such as getting biologically related kids) their partner might have.

Squire Felix said:
if i wear a rabbit suit for the rest of my life, am i a rabbit or a normal man
Furry.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
btf1980 said:
A hook? What era are you in? Some prosthetic limbs today, especially legs are state of the art. Honestly, anyone bringing up hooks when talking about prosthetics has been watching too many films. Pirates have hooks.

I bet in they use leeches for blood poisoning in your era as well.
Prosthetic hands are garbage. You're not picking up a basketball again, you're not performing any delicate tasks, you're not even playing video games anymore (gasp!). Legs have become much better, but even then you need to be sitting on a lot of money to have anything capable of returning an active person to anything close to what they're accustomed to.
 

btf1980

Member
Dresden said:
I just feel sad for anyone who has such a fixation about their penis.

So saying that my penis is part of me as a man means I'm fixated on my penis? What man doesn't think his penis is part of him? Don't feel sad for me because I like my penis & would prefer for it to be there at all times.
 
Jenga said:
Irresponsible on the girl's part for lying to her boyfriend. Don't get angry at me for the comparison GAF, but it's like going into a relationship without telling someone you have a child, are married, or having an STD or some shit. You're pulling them into a relationship with a big life-changing secret. That is never positive.
Maybe she was saving that information for the second date.
 

mokeyjoe

Member
Shanadeus said:
Fine, he's whiter than white. The skin notwithstanding he still acted like a white, I don't consider him no brother after all his antics.

Black isn't the same as 'African-American'. African-American infers its own subculture, 'black' is just a skin colour. A black Nigerian, or a black Ghanaian, or a black German, or a black Australian may not fit on with your stereotype either, it doesn't mean they're not 'black', or acting 'black' which is a meaningless term.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Shanadeus said:
He looks white, he wants to be white (whether that's because of the abuse and taunts from his father isn't really relevant or proven) and in the end he ends becoming an eccentric, white pop-artist with zany habits and wishes. This is just my personal opinion, he just strikes me as a white person - his genes (which themselves are barely relevant to racial identity) aren't even relevant to me.
They are relevant and proven.

There are actually a lot of African-Americans who feel the need to lighten their skin to gain are more (what they feel) 'acceptable' look. Its not so much of a quest to be white as it is to lighten their skin complexion because of the idea that lighter skinned blacks are more liked. Its easy to find skin bleaching products...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom