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Law School & Lawyer GAF
- Thread starter SD-Ness
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peterb0y said:So can you give me a job? kidding, congrats on having a job in the city.
/onlyhalfkidding
On a more serious note, do you have any advice for a 1L who is looking to land a summer job? Just mass email? I'm Cuban so I'm currently looking at diversity programs too. I know its tough, so its not something that I'm banking on or anything, just a goal.
Would if I could! Definitely check out diversity programs - many firms have such programs. Best advice is to just apply early and often and, of course, do well on your exams. As a 1L, a firm job will be very difficult (but a lock for you next summer from NYU as a 2L), so don't don't think you'll get one and ignore everything else. Honestly, as a 1L, I'd just take whatever job I could get. Good luck!
RandomDancing
Member
Just from what I've seen in my class at law school, the majority of students are either K to JD students, or are around 30 years old. I'm a 3L and I don't really know many 26, 27, 28 year olds in my class, but I can name at least ten that are aged 29 to 32. I really don't know of any disadvantages they've had in OCI or anything like that because of their age.
It's also weird to me because I'm a K to JD and everyone still looks pretty young so I always just assume everyone is 23/24 years old. Was amused by how irritated half the class got when my friend complained about turning 25.
It's also weird to me because I'm a K to JD and everyone still looks pretty young so I always just assume everyone is 23/24 years old. Was amused by how irritated half the class got when my friend complained about turning 25.
Bleh, now the school is at the point where everybody starts freaking out like 1Ls.
In my evidence class, we are still at the "fucking evidence, how does it work" kind of phase. Plus, he's like "don't make up facts, I hate students make up facts" but now he's all like "suppose that this made-up witness came in..." when going over a practice exam essay.
In my evidence class, we are still at the "fucking evidence, how does it work" kind of phase. Plus, he's like "don't make up facts, I hate students make up facts" but now he's all like "suppose that this made-up witness came in..." when going over a practice exam essay.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
I think I'm finally hitting that point. I've always been sort of neutral about law school. I felt like I've been working towards doing something the whole time, but I definitely also felt often things were either arbitrary or completely pointless. Now, however, I'm starting to feel like this has all been a giant waste of time. I'm getting way too many rejections, finals seem pointless now which actually makes them more intimidating because I can't get motivated, and everything I've worked towards actually seems to be falling apart. It is becoming more and more clear there will be no funding for me in the office I've spent two summers and a semester externship in. I'm functioning more and more like a regular employee there, and I still can't find a way to get a job. I feel like I have way more practical experience than a lot of my classmates. I'm playing a pretty important litigation support role for my agency's labor litigation. (At least it seems that way to me....) I'm the only intern in my department's history to get the level of work I'm getting. However I still can't convey this to employers. I go to a million "networking" meetings with professors, former bosses, and people I randomly get sent to, and nothing ever seems to come of it. I send out applications, do my extern work, and do my schoolwork. I'm going 100 mph everyday and getting nowhere. On top of all this, my girlfriend of 6 years decided in September that the future we were building together wasn't what she wanted. I feel like the last 2.5 years have been a complete waste. I'm at the point where I don't know why I get out of bed every morning. It feels like I'd end up with the same results. The worst part is everyone else I talk to doesn't understand and all they can say is, "You're getting a law degree from an awesome school! Why are you complaining? You're going to be rich!" I don't know what to do, except the same thing I'm already doing... Awesome :\ I already know that sucks.
That sucks man; especially about the girl friend- in the end its stuff that really matters, not to be sappy. As for jobs, I definitely hear you as well- when I went off to school everyone was like ENJOY UR 6 DIGITZ BRAH, and its tough. I seriously think that you'll eventually find something, the universe isn't that cruel. You've put in your time and work, just keep networking and good things should happen.
^Best encouragement a 1L like myself, who knows jackshit, can give.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
When it rains...
Keep pushing, man. Try to broaden your job search to something like a clerkship. Don't forget. There are a lot of people in a similar boat as you. You have to keep it going.
The girlfriend thing is rough. That will have a definite impact. You'll have to try to focus on school now, though, with finals coming, as hard as that may be. At the least, you won't have to limit yourself to DC, which is a tough legal market to crack.
Para bailar La Bomba
Banned
Buck up, man. If it's any consolation, working in a large firm is not the be all and end all of a legal education. Most of my colleagues are miserable and live incredibly unbalanced lives. Being cooped up in an office for 12-16 hour days is not a natural state of being. It takes a certain person to work in corporate environment and you won't know whether you're that type of person until you try it for a year or so.
Besides what you're experiencing now is something we've all gone through to some varying degree, at some point. Uncertainty is a terrible burden but it sounds to me you need to untangle your personal life from your legal career.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Who said anything about working in a large firm? And yeah, you're right that I need to "untangle" the two, but one falling apart as the other fails to come together is like a perfect storm of stress. I'm really not trying to claim that I have it so much worse than anyone else. It really is just a lot of stress right now. "Buck, up" doesn't exactly help when I'm already trying to do everything I can... I'm obviously gonna keep doing what I'm doing, but again, when everything I try to do to make the situation better consistently fails I start to wonder whether I'm actually capable of making the situation better at all.
It will get better man, it just will. I always run through these terrible scenarios in my head sometimes when I'm stressed out, and then I just have to stop and say you know what, whats the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen? In the end, you realize how relatively not so bad the absolute worst case scenario is.
Im not trying to make light of your situation, rather quite the opposite. Just trying to say that things might not be as bad as they really do seem.
Para bailar La Bomba
Banned
What I perhaps was alluding to is the fact you're in a position now where you still have a reasonable amount of personal freedom and autonomy and you should be making light of this situation, not looking back on it like you've wasted 2.5 years. (And if you need reassurance on this point, think about of all the personal improvement you've made in the last 2.5 years.)
As far as your job-hunting is concerned, I don't mean to patronize you or trivialize your situation, but to me it sounds like you're pressing too much and becoming disillusioned because you're not seeing any results. Eg. attending a network meeting and not seeing anything come to fruition...probably like 99 per cent of the other people who attended that meeting. Sometimes pressing too much can be counterproductive, both on your mental well-being and your prospects with a future employer.(I can attest to this from personal experience).
It sounds to me you're being too harsh on yourself too. You need to convince yourself that everything's going to be alright in the end, which it will be. It always does. You could be posting here next week gloating about the interview/offer you received.
Like I said, we've all gone through what you're experiencing. The fact this has coincided with losing a girl has exacerbated the problem. This to me is the crux of the problem.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
I don't know if I really suggested otherwise... Knowing what the problem is doesn't exactly make things better. You're absolutely right that there are a ton of people with similar job search related problems right now. Do most of them strike you as happy with the situation they're in? Like I said before, it's not like I've thrown my hands in the air and said "fuck it." I keep hustling. The point of posting here tonight was really to vent to one community that I would expect to understand the situation better than most.
O, and BBoy, you're right. Clerkship apps are going out in the next few days. (Hopefully tomorrow, but it seems doubtful.) After that it's a few firms back in NJ where I have managed to get a few contacts. I will say that having to leave DC would kind of piss me off. I've spent 7 years doing the work I thought I needed to do to stay here. My ex stayed unemployed for a year while we lived off my loans so she could find a job here, and now that I'm in a similar position I'm gonna have to go back home with my tail between my legs.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Are you from NJ? Me, too. Why the fuck do you have a Flyers logo in your avatar?
Jersey is a great legal market. I think you'll have a shot at a clerkship if you target wisely. It's definitely your best route right now, IMO. Safe, stable, available employment with great exit options.
Jersey is a great legal market. I think you'll have a shot at a clerkship if you target wisely. It's definitely your best route right now, IMO. Safe, stable, available employment with great exit options.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Yep I'm from NJ. I'm a very rare breed of Flyers fan that was raised in North Jersey, guess I was just raised right
. I'm applying to clerkships here in DC because I have a few connections I've made. I've hear some horror stories about NJ clerkships though... they seem to hire so many that after that one year I hear a lot of them have a hard time finding work.mikeybwright
Banned
ZackieChan
Member
Damn. Should I move back home to Jersey from SoCal?
Pollux
Member
What about Zelda or Mario 3d land?
Haven't got Zelda yet since the Wii is at the GF's house and Mario 3d...well that's going to be something I'll sit down and play when I have a ton of free time. Basically Christmas.
Also...anyone have any advice on what I should focus on for Contracts? Should I focus on cases or the theory behind them, basically would it be better to re-read cases or just review my briefs and the notes on the theory while studying Calimari and Perillo?
I'll take my quickie stop from studying to say:
Just identify the issue, apply the rule, look for the exception to the rule (if there is one for this situation/rule and there always is), mention it or apply it if it actually applies, then add some policy (if your prof likes that, or if you have time at the end of the test it never hurt to just throw some in). Cases should only be used as examples, or "this is same situation as blah blah". Also, most profs like "As was mentioned it class" since it makes them think you listened to them (haha). Most profs say they don't like IRAC (or whatever getting to maybe/LEEWS recommends) but its bs. They just want you to do shitty so they can curve the class easily.
In short, read the briefs and hornbook. Reading cases are near useless unless you need help understanding except...thats what the hornbook is for.
Also, just finished my take home final for patents. While I was doing it I thought of how most of the supreme court is pretty not technologically savvy in their private life (Roberts still has a beeper, wtf). I got to meet Ginsburg a while back, she mentioned how patents cases always is even more of a slog than usual because of this. When they make patents rulings, its always fun to read patents blogs cause they shit their pants.
Also, I have an alarming amount of "Multiple choice with explain your answer" this year. Like almost all of them. I don't have one test (outside of patents) that isn't multiple choice heavy. Which I'm fine with, and it makes sense, but its kind of weird because some of my profs are doing it because its "all the rage" I feel.
Pollux
Member
Good advice. Does anyone else have trouble sleeping during finals? I'm tired as shit, but I feel like I need to review more. And then when I've spent a few hours studying I'll step aside for a bit and then an hour later I feel guilty for not reviewing more.
Then it's 330 am and I'm on GAF trying to calm myself down so I can actually go to sleep.
Absolutely right.
Irac is too basic and makes you look like the average joe. Not a good idea when a lecturer is marking 600 papers that day.
Pollux
Member
Well tonight I didn't get a wink of sleep (last night now I guess), I went to go to sleep around 330 I think and about 20 seconds later I felt like I was getting stabbed in my eye. Spent the next hour in the bathroom looking in the mirror every which way and blasting my eye with eye drops. Turns out I had a splinter in my eye (not a big one) but holy crap that was painful. Lots of red bull to get me through the day today. Study this afternoon. Kentucky vs. Saint Johns tonight, and then I'm going to go to bed extremely early. 9-10pm ish. Can't wait.
But before that I need to get the UCC down. Any advice on easy ways to remember different parts of Article 2, or is it as simple as "Just memorize it"? It's not the memorization thats the problem, it's remembering how all the sections fit together with one another, and then applying them to hypos.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Let's pretend I know NOTHING about Corpoorations and have an exam in two weeks. How would people here suggest I learn enough about the subject to pass the exam in this purely hypothetical situation?
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
If you have an idea of all the sections, I'd just grab a Contracts hornbook for an afternoon or two and just read through the parts of the UCC you want to grasp. Those always helped me put into perspective what the law actually tries to accomplish and what pitfalls it may have.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Find notes keyed to the text book. They are often online. NYU's Student Government has a TON of them. This of course should not be done if anything in your schools ethic codes prevent it (not that it should, I mean you could buy a horn of study book at the bookstore most likely)
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Yeah I've got an old outline. Gonna snuggle up close with it this weekend. Still don't think I've ever been this poorly prepared before though. Don't like this feeling.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Eh for my corporate law test I didn't sleep for 24 hours.*I didn't think I did great on it, but I wound up with a B or B-. Funniest thing was during bar review I was able to retain it far easier than other things and despite Barbri saying it would be a minor or non topic on the NY Bar that year it was a major question and I absolutely nailed it!
*Partially because the hot water heater broke in the building and it was in December and meant showering in the cold. So if I went to sleep I'd be guaranteeing myself to wake up sweaty and dirty as hell
I hate studying for stuff that I have read for the entire semester. Just seems like a waste of time creating an outline since as I read it I'm immediately remembering stuff.
And I never use the actual outline on the test. I know its the process of making it, but damn it sucks. I already got a half grad bump up on the best (B to B+) so I'm thinking of just winging it and studying for other classes. good/bad idea? Its open book/notes btw.
And I never use the actual outline on the test. I know its the process of making it, but damn it sucks. I already got a half grad bump up on the best (B to B+) so I'm thinking of just winging it and studying for other classes. good/bad idea? Its open book/notes btw.
Two weeks is PLENTY of time to learn corporations. It's pretty easy, depending on how in-depth your prof gets into Delaware law. I've always said there was not a class in law school I could not learn in 3 days if someone gives me an outline. I graduated, having tested that theory many times, and never once did I think to change that philosophy. You just have to be effective and focused.
ZackieChan
Member
Looking ahead to next year, how important do you guys think a Bar prep class is?
elrechazado
Banned
I played wow all through law school, it was much better than studying for finals.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
I took one. I passed. Do I think I could have passed without it? Maybe. I think the course was good for materials and helping me keep on track.
Speaking of, anyone taking the NY bar want to buy my Pieper books? Unmarked.
I'll put it this way: Of the 8 percent of people that failed a bar exam (whatever state it is, they just aggregate em all), 90 percent of them didn't take a bar course. I'm not a 3L yet, but that alone should indicate it's importance.
Also, if you hate your life because you have law review/finals and just general law school stuff, raise your hand. *raises hand*. I hate finals times. Actually, I've hated this entire semester.
Attackthebase
Member
I wonder what MMO I'll be playing when I enter law school?
Attackthebase
Member
Commish was right. Damn, thats a long time. You don't need to know the specifics for alot of the civ pro cases, just what they stand for. Know the entire evolution past international shoe with the case chain of S. Ct. cases and the like. Pick up the Emmanuels and E&E and your copy of the FRCP and god help you!
I would also do practice questions (of the multiple choice variety, from those books lexis sells) to learn quickly. It helps, trust me. O and find an outline from the year before.
Swaggg; I got this haha
Pollux
Member
Damn right you do. After the Kentucky game I'm hitting the books for Contracts and Torts. Contracts Wed. and Torts next Sat. Civ. Pro. the Following Wed. and then Property on Sat. and then Crim. the Wed. after that.
I have plenty of time, have read the cases already, get the theory already, and have the "Understanding" books for Torts, Crim, and Property. Calimari and Perillo for Contracts, and Glannon's book for Civ. Pro. And Civ. Pro. is open book, Torts we can bring in a single sheet of paper with whatever we want on it, typed or w/e.
This should be OK.
Time to go focus on theory.
Good luck everyone!
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I don't even try in any class other than first semester 1L until the last week. I have finals in less than two weeks and haven't started; I've also made the Dean's list every semester.
It just depends on how well you cram. I still laugh at 1L's freaking out at finals.
It's funny when people talk about Int'l Shoe and shit; I remember vaguely that we had a class called that in Civ Pro, but I don't even remember what it's about; like minimum contacts or whatever? I got the 5th best grade in Civ Pro too.
ZackieChan
Member
Right. I couldn't tell you anything about anything I learned in 1L. This first 2L semester, my heart just hasn't been in it. I haven't read anything. But I will know it all before the finals!
I think it was working in an actual firm over the summer that made me realize I basically had to learn everything as I went. I pretty much learned nothing of real value in any class but LRW.
I'd rather play Dark Souls than study, but I gotta learn everything about International Commercial Arbitration by Monday.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Read Glannon's Civ Pro book. It is the absolute definitive way to learn civ pro. Just do it already. Do it. Do it.
Pollux
Member
Glannon is a terrible teacher btw. Just refers you to his damn book.
RandomDancing
Member
I may or may not be doing the exact same thing with my corporations class. I'm totally screwed though because I have FIVE FINALS. Gah. Biggest scheduling error of my life. And of course, I have the last three, three days in a row. My brain is assuredly going to melt in the next 20 odd days.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I have four, but one of them is a mediation class with a 50 page long "book" and a 25 question multiple choice.
What sucks about corporations is when it gets into corporate responsibility, that's always fuzzy and a total pain in the ass. Corporate structure and such is pretty easy, actually.
ZackieChan
Member
I've got 5 this semester plus a paper. Same deal next semester. Maybe I should drop a class.
One of my goals for the new year is to get 100% on my reports. This area is my weakness.
I'm high on orals and exams. My assignments are sound-decent but I need that extra push to achieve ultimate success.
In the past I have been knocked for lack of comphrensive analysis. With different areas of law, and the problem that I guess 'I can go on forever,' but then get paranoid and condense the fuck out of my shit; in collaboration with word limits I suppose my judgment and delegation of analysis is fairly poor. Another problem would be the fact my university bell-curves, and perhaps my boring assignment is just 'another.'
All tips would be appreciated. Even from 1st years. Assignments are doing my head in.
I'm high on orals and exams. My assignments are sound-decent but I need that extra push to achieve ultimate success.
In the past I have been knocked for lack of comphrensive analysis. With different areas of law, and the problem that I guess 'I can go on forever,' but then get paranoid and condense the fuck out of my shit; in collaboration with word limits I suppose my judgment and delegation of analysis is fairly poor. Another problem would be the fact my university bell-curves, and perhaps my boring assignment is just 'another.'
All tips would be appreciated. Even from 1st years. Assignments are doing my head in.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I just pulled up an outline for Trusts and Estates that's so fucking thorough it blows my mind that anyone would write it.