Wolf Akela
Member
If I was a carry I'd pick GA, QSS or Maw for my defense though. I'll prolly melt from skills anyway.
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- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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ARMOR DOES NOT REDUCE THE DAMAGE RETURN OF THORNMAIL. DAMAGE RETURNED BY THORNMAIL IS CALCULATED BEFORE RESISTS.
Anyway, Thornmail is pretty decent on rammus because it also increases DBC damage return. With taunt, AD carries will poop themselves when they are forced to hit you.
ARMOR DOES NOT REDUCE THE DAMAGE RETURN OF THORNMAIL. DAMAGE RETURNED BY THORNMAIL IS CALCULATED BEFORE RESISTS.
Anyway, Thornmail is pretty decent on rammus because it also increases DBC damage return. With taunt, AD carries will poop themselves when they are forced to hit you.
SouthernDragon
Member
All I know is that when I see a Rammus with Thornmail on the opposing team I become very, very unhappy.
I remember gaf having an in-house game that lasted over an hr. No lie, one of the most epic matches I've had and I'm glad everyone had the patience to play it 'til the end lol.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Except Randuins/Heart/GA/FoN are all better items on Rammus anyway, so by the time they get a Thornmail, you'd be facing his final build. The marginal return on a Thornmail isn't all that great.
Electrastar too star (am I doing it right)?
*edit* I was so confused by some of those items and then I realized it was dominion. Electrastar, please teach me how to kill people with rammus on dominion!
Well the first thing you are doing wrong is playing Dominion.
Princess Carl
Member
Dominion is like a CoD esque mode.
Fighting constantly for 20 minutes occasionally trying to get the objectives.
Its short and full of pvp.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Shift + 1/2/3/4 for Joke/Taunt/Dance/Laugh.
Found a good post on Reddit about whether you should buy Black Cleaver or Last Whisper, pretty interesting.
Link
XeroSauce
Member
By the time Thornmail has done anything for you as a carry, you are dead.
Thornmail is good on no one because it makes the enemy not want to focus you.
Are you tanky? Great, then you aren't taking the hits for your team like you should because no one wants to attack you.
Are you the carry? Great, it doesn't matter if you have thornmail because you die in 5 hits anyways. (and you are limiting your final build)
Some might say the armor is worth it, but FH gives the same armor while also helping your entire team with the aura instead of just you.
Some may say it's useful if you have a taunt...you aren't taunting to do damage, you taunt to initiate.
The issues lies with lower level play where people attack anyone irregardless of their items or the build. They are tanky with a GA? No worries, your carry will poke them to death. They have a Banshee's/QSS? Ah screw it, CC him, it's take like 45 seconds for that thing to recharge!
This argument would seem to imply that it is better for a tank to not have defensive items since the enemy team will then "want" to attack them.
SouthernDragon
Member
All I know is that attacking a tank in a 1v1 is a pain in the ass if they have Thornmail. I'm just speaking from experience. A FH/Randiuns is way better in a teamfight, though.
STOP ENJOYING GAMES I DO NOT ENJOY
This argument would seem to imply that it is better for a tank to not have defensive items since the enemy team will then "want" to attack them.
You'd have a point if the game didn't have tons of defensive items that help the team. Aegis, Frozen Heart, Randiuns are all great tanky items that benefit your team. Giving them reason to attack you and punishing them if they ignore you. Having a thornmail helps no one on the team except yourself, even then any AD carry with a bloodthirster will just ignore the damage.
Only times you should even remotely consider thornmail (even then, always better choices)
-Other team is largely physical damage auto attacking characters.
-Other team is a bunch of tards that likes attacking the tank.
-You're a tank that can taunt.
SouthernDragon
Member
Kill ALL the towers.
IsayFever
Member
Oh, push turret make kill win game?
SouthernDragon
Member
no no, kill turret make push = babby
XeroSauce
Member
Well..you'd have to predict his ult beforehand, no?
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
How? WW's ult is instant with no travel time, unless you can predict when he is going to click on you, you will never get to dodge his ult. Unless you going to dodge ahead of time, hoping t hat WW will ult you instead of waiting the extra 2 seconds.
This argument would seem to imply that it is better for a tank to not have defensive items since the enemy team will then "want" to attack them.
This is why most good tank cannot be ignore, such as shen/rammus taunt, leona stun, amumu's aoe damage scaling with health, etc.
IsayFever
Member
wait wait why no turret kill, push make?
http://youtu.be/IAAT68detiU
Hecarim art spotlight. Don't care too much for his design; maybe his skins will be interesting.
Hecarim art spotlight. Don't care too much for his design; maybe his skins will be interesting.
Yeah, they went overboard with the skulls.
lazorexplosion
Member
Another reading comprehension fail? Dude I've had perfectly satisfying 60-70 minute games. But when you can't get your teammates to respond to chat or pings to stick together long enough to take down a tower when they have clear advantage like baron buff or a numerical advantage and the other team is exactly the same it's just farcical. It's like watching a game of chess where the rooks go up and back but nobody wants to capture pieces.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Hey Ryze players what do you guys build late game? After you get your tear, boots, and build your frozen heart and banshees what do you go for next?
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Isn't the whole point tho that we are arguing thorn on Rammy and Rammy is usually taken when the team is AD heavy and he has a taught. So he always fills #3 and you can argue he also fills #1.
Bigger issue I have with Thorn is I've never heard a definitive answer to the defense ball curl return damage deal in terms of theory craft. I've heard both sides, but I'm not if either side really KNOWS.
Jazzy Network
Member
Stuff that weakens MR like Void Staff or Abyssal Scepter sounds like a good idea.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
If someone autoattack you once, and take 100 health from you, thornmail will deal 30 magic damage to the attacker.
If you activate defense ball curl with increase armor, the same auto attack will deal like 90 damage to you, and thornmail will deal 27 magic damage to the attacker.
This is why people say defense ball curl or armor decrease thornmail damage, since you take less damage, you reflect less.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
lazorexplosion
Member
I just saw scarra streaming with MR runes and saying how he thought it was stronger. It's a thing people! ^^
He was running MR blues and movespeed quints on Anivia, but the principle is the same.
Regardless, I don't want someone on my team who is going to go afk or grief if they don't like how the game is going. That's like, bottom tier on the bad teammate chart and I always try to report afk/ragequitting people.
For overpowered carrying non-banned junglers, lee sin or udyr, which should I choose?
Avinexus
Member
I run flat MR blues and MS quints on all of my AP mids. But I actually run move speed quints on almost everything, I find that extra move speed helps me far more than anything else. Granted, I don't play AP very often.
He reminds me of WoW DKs lol.
[Will of the Ancients] Spell Vamp is AMAZING on Ryze. If you're not taking that much damage, Rylais is amazing too. His Q debuffs the full slow speed, its gross. Then after one of those, void staff.
MR runes are great on casters that want to survive laning phase. Like Anivia.
FutureZombie
Banned
What is the rational behind not taking down turrets ASAP? I don't see how it allows the other team to "free farm" at all. If you take a turret down early, you can roam some, or you can still stay in lane, but you have more flexibility. But I've noticed more people intentionally leaving turrets up. It seems too risky since later in the game you're always one death away from having a lane pushed hard.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Well...
It's funny cause that's the exact thing I was posting about. I need like a definitive theory crafting answer from the devs at this point cause I've heard so many people say both sides.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
This was ranked, too.
Caught Tryn twice in the jungle early and shut him down for good, Corki got fed, then it turned into a complete slaughterfest. They literally never got one of their buffs without me killing them seconds later and taking it back.
I got so fed at one point I had over 5k gold in my pocket. I bought a Triforce and finished an Aegis at the SAME TIME.
The final push to their nexus I chased their entire team back to fountain and scored a solo ace while my team pushed down the turrets/inhibs. I've never gotten fed as Udyr so it was awesome to me to experience how much of a brick wall he becomes.
Caught Tryn twice in the jungle early and shut him down for good, Corki got fed, then it turned into a complete slaughterfest. They literally never got one of their buffs without me killing them seconds later and taking it back.
I got so fed at one point I had over 5k gold in my pocket. I bought a Triforce and finished an Aegis at the SAME TIME.
The final push to their nexus I chased their entire team back to fountain and scored a solo ace while my team pushed down the turrets/inhibs. I've never gotten fed as Udyr so it was awesome to me to experience how much of a brick wall he becomes.
No, you dont need a dev answer. You can easily test it out on a custom game and find out that ARMOR DOES NOT REDUCE DAMAGE RETURNED.
I learned this the hard way against tryndamere. It could just be that tryndamere is still an overpowering force that cannot be stopped, but what it SEEMED like is that when I would be crushing him early with Riven, getting first blood, stopping him from farming, whatever, once I took down the tower at 10 minutes, he would just keep autoattacking, by the time he got the lane pushed to a safe spot where I could fight by the river, he'd have full crits, etc. So I would have to have extra wards if I wanted to keep getting XP, or I'd roam and probably lose XP (and he would keep autoattacking to kill the turret), and whichever way I did it, he would get the entire minion wave.
If I left the turret up, in theory he wouldn't get the whole minion wave since the turret would interfere, and if he left his turret I could keep trying to kill him. So I try to wait until like 15 minutes unless all lanes seem to be winning and we have a good chance of group pushing elsewhere while giving up top turret or whatever.
And now it's time for ultra low ELO! I was afraid I might drop below 700 but I finally got a win in ranked tonight after like 3 losses.
This took just over an hour, and we had like half our nexus health and no inhibitors, plus nocturne was refusing to buy wards all game (saying it was a support job) and disconnecting off and on for like 5-10 minutes at one point. One or two people were screaming obscenities in capital letters, which I suppose is normal for ranked games. However, people kept actually doing what they were supposed to and focusing Xin, and after winning 3-4 defensive battles we finally pushed down the other team's nexus after killing like 3 of them. Disregard my crazy build...early on I really wanted mana and bought sheen out of some weird thought that it would help me with mana.
And this is the game I wanted to post earlier this week:
5 solo top champions, elo hell etc., no way we'd win! But then entertainingly we did well and they surrendered early. Which was fortunate, since they would have presumably murdered us past 40 minutes.
Because if you're winning your lane it means you're denying your opponent farm, and getting kills on them. Soon as you destroy the tower, your wave can push far enough past the river that you can't safely keep them from farming or gank them. Ya you can roam now and maybe pressure other lanes, but you already had a sure bet of denying farm/killing top lane for farm already and you lost it from destroying tower.
Everything everybody said about the "early tower kills" is correct. All of this stems from the problem that once people down towers, they don't have enough of an impact on the rest of the lanes to offset the freefarm their lane will recieve.
This is why it is OK to kill mid tower early, because mid lane can pressure the entire map - jungle, top, bot and dragon, always giving them something to do if their lane is on the opponents side of the map. But if top lane takes the tower early, they can try to gank mid, but even if that is successful, they have nothing else to do. (Top to mid ganks are generally pretty obvious as well). The only other thing top lane can do is to keep pushing to their 2nd tower and most people are way too chicken to do that, especially really early game. Bot lane is even worse, since you want to farm for as long as possible. If you destroy the opponents tower early, you cant gank mid, nor can you farm from mid. All you can do is push to the 2nd tower (ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH) and force dragon once theyre pushed in that far. Dragon is nice, but afterwards you're still waiting for your minions to reach your half of the river.
This is why it is OK to kill mid tower early, because mid lane can pressure the entire map - jungle, top, bot and dragon, always giving them something to do if their lane is on the opponents side of the map. But if top lane takes the tower early, they can try to gank mid, but even if that is successful, they have nothing else to do. (Top to mid ganks are generally pretty obvious as well). The only other thing top lane can do is to keep pushing to their 2nd tower and most people are way too chicken to do that, especially really early game. Bot lane is even worse, since you want to farm for as long as possible. If you destroy the opponents tower early, you cant gank mid, nor can you farm from mid. All you can do is push to the 2nd tower (ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH) and force dragon once theyre pushed in that far. Dragon is nice, but afterwards you're still waiting for your minions to reach your half of the river.
I always hear that udyr counters Irelia.... Holy shit he counter her so hard. I got first blood on her at level 2. Last hit with bear stance then when she went in to last hit, i stun her and tiger her for half her health. Did this 3 times and she died.
It got up to a point where i was ahead 50cs and their entire team came up to kill me twice. I was 1/2/0 and I was still taking off half her health in less than a second. Easiest win I have ever gotten.
It got up to a point where i was ahead 50cs and their entire team came up to kill me twice. I was 1/2/0 and I was still taking off half her health in less than a second. Easiest win I have ever gotten.
lazorexplosion
Member
CassiOPia am i right? SOOO GOOD
Inskipp
Member
It also gives the enemy an opportunity to freeze the lane closer to their second tower, forcing you to either expose yourself to ganks or lose farm.
It's specifically the reason why I never hit the tower whenever I manage to push to the opponents tower early in the game. I just let the enemy tower kill my creeps and deny the enemy from farm that way.
XeroSauce
Member
Around my ELO, taking down a tower early can be a detriment if it's REALLY early because you are still too squishy to take on the jungler + laner and potentially anyone else, and roaming doesn't help as much until you hit 7 or 8, more worthwhile to stay in lane and level up.
However, that is completely different from putting pressure on a tower. Swinging a few hits while pushing the mid wave stresses out the other team and forces jungler and other lanes to leave their lane, enabling free farm for your team. The only time I'd suggest getting a tower early is at top or mid, and even then, getting it around level 9 where you can sustain yourself.
XeroSauce
Member
That's part of the game, and it's part of almost every multiplayer game, you're going to have to learn to deal with teammates like that every so often.
Don't insult my reading comprehension, sir, I understood you perfectly. But everyone has bad teammates. I'd rather have teammates that farm then teammates who quit and ruin the game for me and everyone else.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
The return to ranked continues to go well.
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