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[xelios]

God is an abstract idea. It is not a magical invisible guy with superpowers.
Get over it.

Where did you learn the concept of god from? Devil May Cry series?

Uh, the bible? You know where he makes plants grow without sunlight and turns people into pillars of salt. I tried to pick the least impressive examples, but there are more.

 

[Yamauchi]

I hope these guys are an extreme minority, and I hope that many Muslim leaders denounce this violent act if they haven't already. Gus Dur, the former president of Indonesia and leader of a 30 million-strong Islamic grooup who recently died, was a good example of how Muslims can exist in the modern world. He met personally with Salman Rushdie--the Satanic Verses guy--and visited Israel.

 

[KHarvey16]

I can read Danish fairly decently, and the article states thus (my translation might be a bit rusty)



I don't really know how the fuck they're supposed to fire a warning shot before drawing the weapon, but that's what the article says.

That's an incredibly counter productive strategy if true. This "shoot to wound" thing seems to be very widespread among the general populace though, so it would still be nice to see something official.

 

[Milk Lizard]

How do you know this?



Or this? What are you reading that we aren't?

Because it has been said by the police that is what they aimed for ? According to what they are trained to do (and not what canadian police are) they should kill if it's the last option which it clearly wasn't here (this is stated in the news article i already posted and really i dont know where to find any english sources for danish laws but it has been debated so much here) as he is still alive and they got him down.

Laws of physics and human physiology do not acknowledge the arbitrary political boundaries of nations.

Read the effing article.

I'm off for now, dinner and UFC watching. Toodles.

No I wont because all I ever said is this is what they are trained and told to do. I'm not going to bother debating if it's dangerous or not to do warning shots.


Also on a unrelated note not to you he told the press that he left his 5 year old granddaughter in the living room while he himself ran to the panic room. :lol

 

[Kaeru]

I hope these guys are an extreme minority, and I hope that many Muslim leaders denounce this violent act if they haven't already. Gus Dur, the former president of Indonesia and leader of a 30 million-strong Islamic grooup who recently died, was a good example of how Muslims can exist in the modern world. He met personally with Salman Rushdie--the Satanic Verses guy--and visited Israel.

No you got it all wrong.
Islam means peace.
Moderate muslims sure do exist. Every practiciing muslims aim is to live the life according to how Muhammed lived, which is described in detail in the hadiths.
Muhammed was a moderate muslim was he not?

 

[KHarvey16]

Because it has been said by the police that is what they aimed for ?

Is this according to you or is there some sort of quote to go along with this? It's not in the original story.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

That's an incredibly counter productive strategy if true. This "shoot to wound" thing seems to be very widespread among the general populace though, so it would still be nice to see something official.

I'm not 100% on this, but I think it applies to police here in Norway too; you're supposed to aim for non-vital body parts like arms and legs if you have to fire at a person, with shots towards the torso being the least desireable option. Also, policemen here don't carry guns at all times AFAIK, I don't even think they carry batons at all times.

 

[Count Dookkake]

No you got it all wrong.
Islam means peace.

No, you got it all wrong.

"Work makes free."

 

[Milk Lizard]

I can read Danish fairly decently, and the article states thus (my translation might be a bit rusty)



I don't really know how the fuck they're supposed to fire a warning shot before drawing the weapon, but that's what the article says.

Yeah you're translation is very rusty but that is mainly because of weird writing way in danish. The stuff about warning shot is when you have drawn the gun before firing it.

Is this according to you or is there some sort of quote to go along with this? It's not in the original story.

Well according to what i heard police officer saying in tv (who also said talked very positively about the way it was handled with not killing him). Anyway I dont think I'm going to bother anymore, I know all this shit because it has been debated so many times here (especially with the other case already mentioned) and from that it is pretty clear that they did what they were supposed to : Only kill him if he's a threat to your life.

 

[Dileas]

Is it possible that there are different protocols in different countries? I'm from Denmark but have no idea how our police officers are trained. I can however tell you that Danish police doesn't have a lot of the fancy equipment mentioned earlier in this thread. Moreover the reactions to fatal shootings in this country do lead me to believe that our police isn't taught to shoot to kill.

Like others have mentioned(ie boogie), it's extremely dangerous to shoot limbs, not only is it highly likely you're going to miss and could possible cause collateral damage, you still risk the chance of killing the individual by the fact the you might hit an artery(femoral,tibial..etc) and cause a bleed out.

Again I don't really have much knowledge of police protocols, but it would be extremely foolish to attempt those types of shots. If you're going to shoot, you shoot to kill.

And to reiterate on warning shots. Warning shots are just that, a warning that you are prepared to use lethal force, and the immediate escalation from a warning shot is lethal force. Warning shots are not to be taken lightly, a shooter can only fire a warning shot if he/she is in immediate danger for their life. At least this is what the Canadian army/NATO goes by. Also as far as I know warning shots are generally used only by military(in North America anyways) and in occupied countries.

 

[Ikael]

This scumbag is an Al Qaeda terrorist, tried to murder a 75 year old cartoonist, and wielded an axe at a police officer... and they didn't even kill him?

I bet he can provide good intel. Criminals are usually more useful alive than dead. See also: forced work > death penalty

 

[Bidermaier]

Uh, the bible? You know where he makes plants grow without sunlight and turns people into pillars of salt. I tried to pick the least impressive examples, but there are more.

WRONG

Ok now you have to understand that before the scientific revolution things were just not read as we do it today. Allegory was the norm.
If you dont understand that you understand NOTHING.

Allegories are not lies. They are representation of concepts, in a old fashioned way.
You cant read a biblical text the same way as you read a text book.
I know, that happens all the time today. Its a pity.

Of course you can deny what I say and keep bashing the poor fools than follow the sacred books as a recipe book. I guess it must be fun, kinda, for a while.

 

[Count Dookkake]

WRONG

Ok now you have to understand that before the scientific revolution things were just not read as we do it today. Allegory was the norm.
If you dont understand that you understand NOTHING.

Allegories are not lies. They are representation of concepts, in a old fashioned way.
You cant read a biblical text the same way as you read a text book.
I know, that happens all the time today. Its a pity.

Of course you can deny what I say and keep bashing the poor fools than follow the sacred books as a recipe book. I guess it must be fun, kinda, for a while.

The parts of the bible that are allegorical are clearly marked as parables.

Everything else is supposed to be real.

No amount of retconning can change that.

 

[blame space]

so are we allowed to post our MS Paint drawings of Mohammed in this thread?

 

[itsinmyveins]

That's an incredibly counter productive strategy if true. This "shoot to wound" thing seems to be very widespread among the general populace though, so it would still be nice to see something official.

Why would it be counter productive? I'm guessing the same rules apply for most scandinavian countries and probably several other european as well.

 

[silverbullet1080]

so are we allowed to post our MS Paint drawings of Mohammed in this thread?

 

[D4Danger]

so are we allowed to post our MS Paint drawings of Mohammed in this thread?

I don't see why not.

you first

 

[KHarvey16]

Why would it be counter productive? I'm guessing the same rules apply for most scandinavian countries and probably several other european as well.

You use a weapon to eliminate or subdue a threat. Trying to aim at small, mobile targets like legs or arms means a much, much higher chance of missing and I'm sure it's easier to over penetrate even if you do hit them. So you're effectively endangering others when you send these bullets in whatever direction you're aiming. You shouldn't use a gun unless death is an acceptable outcome for whatever it is you're shooting at.

 

[itsinmyveins]

You use a weapon to eliminate or subdue a threat. Trying to aim at small, mobile targets like legs or arms means a much, much higher chance of missing and I'm sure it's easier to over penetrate even if you do hit them. So you're effectively endangering others when you send these bullets in whatever direction you're aiming. You shouldn't use a gun unless death is an acceptable outcome for whatever it is you're shooting at.

I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that's why they fire a warning shot first. And no matter if you aim for the chest or a leg/arm you're endagering people in the surrounding area if there are any. I'd also guess that it all depends on the situation to a large extent.

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that's why they fire a warning shot first. And no matter if you aim for the chest or a leg/arm you're endagering people in the surrounding area if there are any. I'd also guess that it all depends on the situation to a large extent.

A warning shot is even worse than aiming for arms. Of course any use of a gun puts bystanders in danger, but it should be top priority to keep them as safe as possible. Warning shots and aiming for extremities contradicts that. It's sacrificing bystander safety for the suspect's, which makes no sense.

 

[blame space]

I don't see why not.

you first

nsfw

http://i45.tinypic.com/291eqky.jpg

 

[xelios]

Come on, wouldn't it be better to continue the discussion rather than get the thread locked on purpose.

 

[Milk Lizard]

nsfw

http://i45.tinypic.com/291eqky.jpg

Wtf. :lol

 

[itsinmyveins]

A warning shot is even worse than aiming for arms. Of course any use of a gun puts bystanders in danger, but it should be top priority to keep them as safe as possible. Warning shots and aiming for extremities contradicts that. It's sacrificing bystander safety for the suspect's, which makes no sense.

I don't think it makes sense to you because you don't know anything about either the situations nor the routines. I'm no expert either, but I'm assuming a lot depends on the situation and how "controlled" it is and the tactic used is based on that.

 

[Dandy]

nsfw

http://i45.tinypic.com/291eqky.jpg

:lol You know your craft well.

 

[silverbullet1080]

nsfw

http://i45.tinypic.com/291eqky.jpg

ruh roh

 

[Canova]

nsfw

http://i45.tinypic.com/291eqky.jpg

:lol :lol

 

[Combichristoffersen]

nsfw

http://i45.tinypic.com/291eqky.jpg

Brace for thread lockdown!

 

[silverbullet1080]

A warning shot is even worse than aiming for arms. Of course any use of a gun puts bystanders in danger, but it should be top priority to keep them as safe as possible. Warning shots and aiming for extremities contradicts that. It's sacrificing bystander safety for the suspect's, which makes no sense.

A warning shot is a shot to the floor usually which is pretty safe, aiming for extremities is dangerous and pointless though.

 

[Treo360]

yes he is and I'm pretty sure that his face is always covered up in islamic art. it's possible that they just gave up on that point since he's obviously a major christian figure and there's like a thousand pieces of art with his picture on it in every single church.

So then where's the rage? Or are all prophets not created equal? I understand the point that he, Jesus, is a major christian figure, but if it's good for Moe it should be good for Joe.

 

[heliosRAzi]

A warning shot is a shot to the floor usually which is pretty safe, aiming for extremities is dangerous and pointless though.

The agency I work for discourages shooting warning shots into the ground because could ricochet and hit yourself, the target, or a bystander.

I'm reading a PDF which quotes a section from Act on Police Activities that went into effect in 2004 in Denmark and it says:

16. (1) The police may use force only if necessary and justified and only by such means and to such extent as are reasonable relative to the interest which the police seek to protect. Any assessment of the justifiability of such force must also take into account whether the use of force involves any risk of bodily harm to third parties.
(2) Force must be used as considerately as possible under the circumstances and so as to minimise any bodily harm.
17. (1) Firearms may only be used:
(i) to avert an on-going or imminent dangerous assault on a person;
(ii) to avert other imminent danger to the lives of persons or of such persons incurring grievous bodily harm […]
(iv) to secure the apprehension of persons who have or are suspected on reasonable grounds of having commenced or committed a dangerous assault on another person unless the risk that such persons will commit another such assault is deemed not to exist;
(2) Before the police fire shots involving a risk of harm to a person, the person must be informed in so far as possible, first by shouted warnings and then by warning shots, that the police intend to fire if police orders are not observed. It must also be ensured, in so far as possible, that the person is able to observe the order.
(3) In case of an obvious risk of hitting third parties, shots may only be fired as a last resort […]
(5) If police shooting has caused harm to a person, the person must immediately be examined by a doctor.

 

[Milk Lizard]

So then where's the rage? Or are all prophets not created equal? I understand the point that he, Jesus, is a major christian figure, but if it's good for Moe it should be good for Joe.

Nah they are not equal. Muhammed > everyone else.

 

[KHarvey16]

I don't think it makes sense to you because you don't know anything about either the situations nor the routines. I'm no expert either, but I'm assuming a lot depends on the situation and how "controlled" it is and the tactic used is based on that.

Posters here are suggesting that police always prefer to aim for extremities. This sounds wrong for the reasons I gave, and even if it's not, it's a very strange strategy.

A warning shot is a shot to the floor usually which is pretty safe, aiming for extremities is dangerous and pointless though.

Basically only if they're on soft ground. You can't do it in a house and you can't do it on anything hard like pavement.

 

[Chichikov]

A warning shot is a shot to the floor usually which is pretty safe, aiming for extremities is dangerous and pointless though.

Hell no.
Bullets can easily ricochet and wound a personat that distance, not to mention that the debris from the impact can be dangerous as well.
Obviously it all depends on the type of bullet, floor's material, shooting angle etc. but it is very dangerous to discharge a firearm straight down at the floor and I would be extremely surprised to find out that it is an allowed practice in any military or law enforcement agency.

The only warning shot that can be reasonably safe is up in the air in an open field, though it too is generally discouraged as it is very dangerous to do in an urban surrounding (it can be surprisingly hard to judge your firearm's angle when shooting like this) and it is wise to not let people get in the habit of doing this.

 

[silverbullet1080]

Basically only if they're on soft ground. You can't do it in a house and you can't do it on anything hard like pavement.

I mean versus shooting in the air.

 

[Piano]

nsfw

http://i45.tinypic.com/291eqky.jpg

Oh lord :lol

 

[itsinmyveins]

Posters here are suggesting that police always prefer to aim for extremities. This sounds wrong for the reasons I gave, and even if it's not, it's a very strange strategy.

Basically only if they're on soft ground. You can't do it in a house and you can't do it on anything hard like pavement.

I can't speak for Denmark, although I assume their set of rules are fairly similar. You very rarely read about people being shot to death by the police where I live, but you do sometimes read about them firing a warning shot in the ground and sometimes shooting the suspect in the leg. I'm not sure if they are using it now but I know they were introducing a bullet similar to hollow points a couple of years back to minimize the risk of the bullet ricocheting for instance.

The bottom line though, is that you don't see as much gun violence. You're talking about small countries where the police fire their weapon maybe 20-30 times a year in general. No, not per police officer but for the police force in its entirety.

 

[News Bot]

Blasphemy is a victimless crime. Personally, I think that anyone who gets offended by something even mildly religious should enjoy long walks on the beach, because they can fuck right off.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

The agency I work for discourages shooting warning shots into the ground because could ricochet and hit yourself, the target, or a bystander.

I'm reading a PDF which quotes a section from Act on Police Activities that went into effect in 2004 in Denmark and it says:

I found a PDF from the Norwegian police. It's from 1989, so regulations might've been changed since then.

§ 20.
If a policeman finds that he has to use firearms, he shall - unless circumstances forces him to do otherwise - fire a warning shot beforehand. Warning shots must not be fired unless terms for use of firearms exists.


Comments to § 16.3.
When weapons are used, it has to be with as much care as possible. The opponent must never be dealt more severe damage than what is absolutely necessary for the desired purpose. It must, as far as possible, be ensured that no one is dealt long-lasting damage* by use of weapons. If hits are intended, shots should be fired at as short range as possible, and it should preferably be aimed downwards, towards the legs.


Comments to § 20.
A warning shot shall be directed in such a way that the risk of damage is as low as possible. Usually it will be least dangerous to fire the shot straight up in the air.

* Not really sure what the specific term in English would be, but 'varig men' in Norwegian essentially means a damage that will last for the rest of your life.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

If the picture is so upsetting to your god, then let him deal with it.

God is an abstract idea. It is not a magical invisible guy with superpowers.
Get over it.

Where did you learn the concept of god from? Devil May Cry series?

WRONG

Ok now you have to understand that before the scientific revolution things were just not read as we do it today. Allegory was the norm.
If you dont understand that you understand NOTHING.

Allegories are not lies. They are representation of concepts, in a old fashioned way.
You cant read a biblical text the same way as you read a text book.
I know, that happens all the time today. Its a pity.

Of course you can deny what I say and keep bashing the poor fools than follow the sacred books as a recipe book. I guess it must be fun, kinda, for a while.

So you're saying you don't believe in God, but it's understandable to defend him, because he's an idea worth defending?

 

[soul creator]

religious people who get upset when god is mocked are the ultimate White Knights

dude it's god. I'm pretty sure the all powerful creator of the universe can handle himself!

 

[Kipz]

religious people who get upset when god is mocked are the ultimate White Knights

dude it's god. I'm pretty sure the all powerful creator of the universe can handle himself!

It's because deep down, they all know what they believe is one giant lie. It's much easier to silence those who break your fragile world view than to change your world view.

 

[D4Danger]

nsfw

oh my.

Just so you know I'm not taking a bullet for you.

 

[YoungHav]

I hope these guys are an extreme minority, and I hope that many Muslim leaders denounce this violent act if they haven't already. Gus Dur, the former president of Indonesia and leader of a 30 million-strong Islamic grooup who recently died, was a good example of how Muslims can exist in the modern world. He met personally with Salman Rushdie--the Satanic Verses guy--and visited Israel.

Don't believe the media hype. Extremism is a very small %. Islam is the most popular religion in the world. If even 50% were extremist this world would be over by now. It's a shame the media here and asshole pundits sometimes use this as a blanket generalization of Islam.

 

[Boogie]

I don't think it makes sense to you because you don't know anything about either the situations nor the routines. I'm no expert either, but I'm assuming a lot depends on the situation and how "controlled" it is and the tactic used is based on that.

Two words why warning shots are fucking retarded: Round accountability.

A warning shot is a shot to the floor usually which is pretty safe, aiming for extremities is dangerous and pointless though.

No it is not. Bullets ricochet.

The bottom line though, is that you don't see as much gun violence. You're talking about small countries where the police fire their weapon maybe 20-30 times a year in general. No, not per police officer but for the police force in its entirety.

And this is probably the truth. These countries lack gun violence which is more prevalent in NA (which, consequently, makes policing more dangerous in NA), so the police procedures and policies, and legal implications regarding use of deadly force and firearms aren't as well-developed.

I am positively jaw-to-the-floor shocked that these countries have it written in policy encouraging actions such as warning shots and aiming for limbs.

 

[Neo C.]

I am positively jaw-to-the-floor shocked that these countries have it written in policy encouraging actions such as warning shots and aiming for limbs.

Warning shots are wide spreaded. I've learned it in the military as well, though it's only allowed in open area. It isn't allowed in closed area for obvious reason.

Now, aiming for limbs isn't part of military training, I don't know how common they are in police forces. Though I've used heavy weapon in military which can cause death by shooting on limbs (heart attack through impact of the bullet). That might be one of the reasons why the difference of shooting center or aiming for limbs doesn't matter in military.

 

[Boogie]

Warning shots are wide spreaded. I've learned it in the military as well, though it's only allowed in open area. It isn't allowed in closed area for obvious reason.

That's fine. I would also hope that it goes without saying that police != military though.

Now, aiming for limbs isn't part of military training, I don't know how common they are in police forces.

Absolutely nonexistent at all levels of policing in Canada, from general patrol officer to SWAT/ERT. I am confident that is the case in the USA as well.

You simply cannot train the human body to consistently hit a limb with a firearm in a high-stress, life-and-death situation. But you can train to hit centre of mass consistently.

That is why, even if there exists a policy to aim for limbs, it is dangerous. Because even if it works, such as it seems to have in this case, it is due to luck, not training. And you can't write procedures and policy based on being lucky.

 

[KHarvey16]

That PDF linked earlier said most police usage of firearms in Denmark resulting in injury involved the arms and legs. It also said that approximately half of all those cases involved over penetration. Also it says there have been 66 incidents reported of police firing at civilians between 1996 and 2006, and in those 51 people were hit. That means in 23% of the cases the officer missed.

 

[mAcOdIn]

That is why, even if there exists a policy to aim for limbs, it is dangerous. Because even if it works, such as it seems to have in this case, it is due to luck, not training. And you can't write procedures and policy based on being lucky.

Why would a gun even be used for such a thing? That's like handing someone a sword and telling them to try and cut off the fingers of the assailant, it's silly and stupid. You use a gun to kill, if you want non deadly force use a stun gun or a baton, not a gun. It's just such a silly concept I find it hard to fathom that any country would even issue their police guns and expect them to be used that way.

 

[KHarvey16]

Why would a gun even be used for such a thing? That's like handing someone a sword and telling them to try and cut off the fingers of the assailant, it's silly and stupid. You use a gun to kill, if you want non deadly force use a stun gun or a baton, not a gun. It's just such a silly concept I find it hard to fathom that any country would even issue their police guns and expect them to be used that way.

Ah, and furthermore another thing that PDF talks about is standard issue equipment to police in Denmark which includes a short truncheon and pepper spray.