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Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite announced (PC/XB1/PS4, 2017) [Update: Info In OP]

Anth0ny

Member
I could argue that neither game sold like shit because of how they played.

Now you're getting it.

Dumbing down gameplay mechanics isn't going to drastically change how a game sells. The masses see things more superficially than that. Which is why MK and tons of other games sell on the power of "sick graphics, bro."

Don't forget fatalities made it appeal to the most influential demographic out there - youtubers and twitch streamers

Fatality only video compilations on youtube have 20+ million views

Exactly!

Marvel needs something that can be made into a Youtube compilation. Level 3s? Story mode moments? Character specific super moves? There's so much potential considering the history of these characters.
 

Hazzuh

Member
Simplifying fighting games to encourage casual players to stick with them has never fucking worked. Not once. It's infuriating that developers still try to trot out that line for it, too. I can't tell if they're dumb enough to believe it or just trying to work the PR angle.

Ultras were supposed to be a comeback mechanic to keep players in the game in SF4, but it's more likely that a pro will make better use of it, while a scrub will just whiff and waste it on wake-up.

Any dunce can do some damage with X-Factor, but you're more likely to be shredded by Wong's XF1 Wolverine who knows how to kill all of your characters before they can do anything or a competent XF3 Vergil who can clean up when things go south.

I like that SF5's input buffer is a lot more lenient than in prior entries of the series, but quite a lot of the faces seen at Capcom Cup 2016 are the same as in 2015.

Even fucking Smash Bros has only 2 attack buttons, but Melee also happens to have the most consistent tournament results of any fighting game ever. Because the people who place well just know how to play the game better than the rest of the competition. And there were even plenty of posts here on GAF complaining that Smash 4 was too complicated when that game was released.

You can dumb down Infinite as much as you like. It won't change a thing. The dedicated players will be the ones who get results, and the people who can't handle their losses or figure out how to learn from them will throw in the towel and move on with their lives as soon as they're tired of taking a beating online. Nothing you can do can keep the latter group around; that's a mindset problem that can't be solved through game development.

Preach. The way to make fighting games accessible and successful with a broader audience is to have loads of good single play content. I spent ages playing Soul Calibur 2 when I was younger just because the single player content was amazing.
 

NexusCell

Member
oooooh god damn, combo has spoken:







that was actually Sakurai talking about Melee. but I'm getting the same vibes from this game :(

Hey man, no offence, but you're doing Combofiend pretty dirty by putting words in his mouth. A lot of posters already think that fake quote is real, so I would appreciate if you take that bullshit back to Smash or make it clear that quite is fake.
 
Are you trying to get me SWATted?! :p



I think the fatalities are a draw, but not as much as people would think. I think the story mode and the popularity of that franchise are what did it. MK9 brought everything back in a biiiiig way.

That being said, Marvel has massive juice now
Make it private lol
 

Negaduck

Member
Except Marvel isn't selling you a 2,000$ piano, they're selling you a 60$ game so they need to sell by volume. FGC people don't get that, which is fine.

That's why it's an analogy it's not literal. It's the removal of options and utilities that dumb it down that upsets people

Rising thunder is a good edge case of dumbing down a game so anyone can jump in.

Even if riot didn't buy the cannons and crew I doubt we'd be getting crazy hype over RT (I liked a lot of things about RT but not one button specials.)
 
Now you're getting it.

Dumbing down gameplay mechanics isn't going to drastically change how a game sells. The masses see things more superficially than that. Which is why MK and tons of other games sell on the power of "sick graphics, bro."

I get what you're saying but it isn't clean like that

If that was the case VF would be the best selling game ever because holy shit VF5

Now we'll see how this holds up once Dissidia hits consoles because I played that when I went to Tokyo and my god game crushes everything looks wise right now
 

Dahbomb

Member
If MvC:I is a sales success... it's not going to be because of the game play but because it has the Marvel brand, great roster, will have good single player modes, good netcode, solid graphics and no BS microtransation/on disc DLC controversy.

MvC:I can have the WORST game play of the entire VS series and still sell the best.
 
Hey man, no offence, but you're doing Combofiend pretty dirty by putting words in his mouth. A lot of posters already think that fake quote is real, so I would appreciate if you take that bullshit back to Smash or make it clear that quite is fake.

Combofiend stole my car

Make it private lol

Private THIS

That's why it's an analogy it's not literal. It's the removal of options and utilities that dumb it down that upsets people

Rising thunder is a good edge case of dumbing down a game so anyone can jump in.

Oooo that's a good pull. What's the game that Sirlin is making? The one with one button everything?

Slayven has his phone ready

I broke it
 

JeTmAn81

Member
No fighting game which requires you to play three characters to even begin a match is "easy" to play. Far from it. Capcom is right to continue to look for ways to make this kind of gameplay more accessible, I just wish 2v2 wasn't their answer. This is a bigger problem in the fighting game community anyway, how to smooth out the learning curve.
 

Negaduck

Member
Oooo that's a good pull. What's the game that Sirlin is making? The one with one button everything?

The one that was a board game right? I don't know anything about that one, does it really have one button everything?


No fighting game which requires you to play three characters to even begin a match is "easy" to play. Far from it. Capcom is right to continue to look for ways to make this kind of gameplay more accessible, I just wish 2v2 wasn't their answer. This is a bigger problem in the fighting game community anyway, how to smooth out the learning curve.

I agree. Instead of dumbing down the game to bring players in, why not make tutorials and guides better as a community or game to help players learn. It's not necessarily the games fault it has a higher skill ceiling.
 
Since Captain Marvel is already in, if I could get 3 out of the 9 listed below I'd be ecstatic.



Songbird (Thunderbolts)
The Runaways - [From Left to Right] Karolina Dean aka "Lucy in the Sky", Molly Hayes, Nico Minoru, Chase Stein, Gertrude Yorkes "Arsenic"
Elsa Bloodstone - (Nextwave)
Gamora (Guardians of the Galaxy)
Ms. America (The Ultimates)
Ms. Marvel
Angela (Guardians of the Galaxy)
Singularity (A Force)
Gwen Poole - Gwenpool

I didn't list Black Widow because she's obviously going to be in, and I'm confident She-Hulk is a shoe in as well.

Yeah, I'm not expecting Molly, but Angela would be my out of left field Marvel pick. Give me a strong and fast sword lady.

Angela is actually more likely than you'd think considering Marvel puts her in everything.


I'm hoping for Songbird. She has powers that would work really well for this sort of game. She's not particularly prominent right now, but I feel that people underestimate the chances of characters that Marvel may want to promote in the future, and the Thunderbolts could get a push.

I hope so, for ALL of that



No taking out Chun Li. I've loved playing as her since MVC1, (especially Shadow Lady)

and she's pretty ingrained into the series
 

tribal24

Banned
Simplifying fighting games to encourage casual players to stick with them has never fucking worked. Not once. It's infuriating that developers still try to trot out that line for it, too. I can't tell if they're dumb enough to believe it or just trying to work the PR angle.

Ultras were supposed to be a comeback mechanic to keep players in the game in SF4, but it's more likely that a pro will make better use of it, while a scrub will just whiff and waste it on wake-up.

Any dunce can do some damage with X-Factor, but you're more likely to be shredded by Wong's XF1 Wolverine who knows how to kill all of your characters before they can do anything or a competent XF3 Vergil who can clean up when things go south.

I like that SF5's input buffer is a lot more lenient than in prior entries of the series, but quite a lot of the faces seen at Capcom Cup 2016 are the same as in 2015.

Even fucking Smash Bros has only 2 attack buttons, but Melee also happens to have the most consistent tournament results of any fighting game ever. Because the people who place well just know how to play the game better than the rest of the competition. And there were even plenty of posts here on GAF complaining that Smash 4 was too complicated when that game was released.

You can dumb down Infinite as much as you like. It won't change a thing. The dedicated players will be the ones who get results, and the people who can't handle their losses or figure out how to learn from them will throw in the towel and move on with their lives as soon as they're tired of taking a beating online. Nothing you can do can keep the latter group around; that's a mindset problem that can't be solved through game development.

/clap

pretty much nailed it
 

sephi22

Member
Mhmm. Online and finishing all the trials is a different story but those same people are gonna get bodied in Infinity online too.
Why should a game's online mode or trials mode cater to the least skillful? If someone doesn't do the legwork to learn the game, they are supposed to get bodied.

Another reason for the dumbing down of the game is people saying "the games are too chaotic. It's impossible to tell what's going on". This happened as recently as the last Bombcast where they were mentioning the leaks and said this.

I play dota. It's impossible for me to follow a league of legends team fight because
A)I'm not familiar with any of the champions and their abilities
B) I don't know what to look for
And my LoL playing friend can't follow dota 2 team fights for similar reasons

It's the same in Marvel 3. If you don't hit training mode with every character at least once, and check out each of their moves and assists, you wouldn't know what you're looking at in a match. Once you understand whos doing what then it's only a matter of learning common attack patterns that a character uses and the assists they use to fill holes in it or extend their combos.
 
The one that was a board game right? I don't know anything about that one, does it really have one button everything?

I think it does ya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fENgvKRqMKA

Your car was garbage anyway.

How dare you make fun of Dikembe!

No taking out Chun Li. I've loved playing as her since MVC1, (especially Shadow Lady)

and she's pretty ingrained into the series

Put her in the goddamn bin
 

Anth0ny

Member
If MvC:I is a sales success... it's not going to be because of the game play but because it has the Marvel brand, great roster, will have good single player modes, good netcode, solid graphics and no BS microtransation/on disc DLC controversy.

MvC:I can have the WORST game play of the entire VS series and still sell the best.

Exactly... that's the most annoying thing for me. Yet watch people act like the gameplay had something do with it.

Same thing as people saying Melee was too hard and Brawl sold more because it was easier to play. And totally not because Wii had 5x the install base of the Gamecube. fucking hell.
 
Simplifying fighting games to encourage casual players to stick with them has never fucking worked. Not once. It's infuriating that developers still try to trot out that line for it, too. I can't tell if they're dumb enough to believe it or just trying to work the PR angle.

Ultras were supposed to be a comeback mechanic to keep players in the game in SF4, but it's more likely that a pro will make better use of it, while a scrub will just whiff and waste it on wake-up.

Any dunce can do some damage with X-Factor, but you're more likely to be shredded by Wong's XF1 Wolverine who knows how to kill all of your characters before they can do anything or a competent XF3 Vergil who can clean up when things go south.

I like that SF5's input buffer is a lot more lenient than in prior entries of the series, but quite a lot of the faces seen at Capcom Cup 2016 are the same as in 2015.

Even fucking Smash Bros has only 2 attack buttons, but Melee also happens to have the most consistent tournament results of any fighting game ever. Because the people who place well just know how to play the game better than the rest of the competition. And there were even plenty of posts here on GAF complaining that Smash 4 was too complicated when that game was released.

You can dumb down Infinite as much as you like. It won't change a thing. The dedicated players will be the ones who get results, and the people who can't handle their losses or figure out how to learn from them will throw in the towel and move on with their lives as soon as they're tired of taking a beating online. Nothing you can do can keep the latter group around; that's a mindset problem that can't be solved through game development.

Nuking the thread with truth bombs.
 

Crocodile

Member
A) I'd avoid calling MvC: Infinite "dumbed down" given what we've seen so far. "Different in a way that may or may not be worse" or "removes some of the things I liked most about the series" I think is more accurate.

B) With regards to simplifying controls and what not, its less about worse player competing with good players but rather that worse players can feel they can play at all. Let's not forget that to a lot of people, doing Shoryukens with any consistently is hard as fuck. The goal as far as I can tell here, and in any other fighting game where they use this sort of language, is not so much to close the skill gap but just make it easier for casuals to play at all.
 

cordy

Banned
Since MK9 came out in 2011, the fighters I've spent the most time on have been it, MKX and TTT2. Why these 3? I don't know about everyone else but personally these reasons:

- Story Modes:
TTT2 didn't have a Story Mode but the other 2 did. I spent a heavy amount of time in them just going through, using new characters, having fun and enjoying the story. I did Story Mode before I even jumped online
- Challenge Ladders: MK9 had the 100 Challenge Tower thing, MKX has Towers, I spent a ton of time there messing around.
- Arcade / Ladder: All games gave you a standard 9-10 match regular arcade ladder and at the end gave you a nice ending. Imagine going through all of that with the characters you tried out in Story Mode. It gives you some experience before you even want to jump online.
- Ghost Mode: TTT2 had a ghost mode which had numerous characters, styles, just very fun. You can turn the difficulty up as well as you climb the rankings with your character.
- Customization / Krypt: TTT2 has customization, MK has krypt. Unlocked the different clothing pieces for my characters and messed around in some graveyards. Spent a decent amount of time.

I did all of these things before I even thought about jumping online.


Not everyone is like me but judging from what I enjoy doing, that's what I like. With SF games and Marvel games these days it's not even close. Those games really try to force you online rather than making it seem as though the single-player side was good enough on it's own and online was an option. For people who love competition and fighting others it's worth it but for those who don't? It doesn't help. Mind you I jumped online when it was time and I was pretty good. I just didn't like spending time with that compared to things away from the online side.

Thankfully Marvel and Capcom have already commented on the Story Mode and other single-player things that'll give me the things I need in a game. Gameplay is great at all but not everyone plays games slowly for that. You can get fun in different areas.
 

Negaduck

Member
Simplifying fighting games to encourage casual players to stick with them has never fucking worked. Not once. It's infuriating that developers still try to trot out that line for it, too. I can't tell if they're dumb enough to believe it or just trying to work the PR angle.

Ultras were supposed to be a comeback mechanic to keep players in the game in SF4, but it's more likely that a pro will make better use of it, while a scrub will just whiff and waste it on wake-up.

Any dunce can do some damage with X-Factor, but you're more likely to be shredded by Wong's XF1 Wolverine who knows how to kill all of your characters before they can do anything or a competent XF3 Vergil who can clean up when things go south.

I like that SF5's input buffer is a lot more lenient than in prior entries of the series, but quite a lot of the faces seen at Capcom Cup 2016 are the same as in 2015.

Even fucking Smash Bros has only 2 attack buttons, but Melee also happens to have the most consistent tournament results of any fighting game ever. Because the people who place well just know how to play the game better than the rest of the competition. And there were even plenty of posts here on GAF complaining that Smash 4 was too complicated when that game was released.

You can dumb down Infinite as much as you like. It won't change a thing. The dedicated players will be the ones who get results, and the people who can't handle their losses or figure out how to learn from them will throw in the towel and move on with their lives as soon as they're tired of taking a beating online. Nothing you can do can keep the latter group around; that's a mindset problem that can't be solved through game development.

More need to see this post. New players join, have fun with a "possible" dumbed down system. And then after they bought the game we get left, the community who keeps the game alive has to play the game that was dumbed down so new players can buy it and play a little and then never (of course not all new people stop) play the game again
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I think the "MvC3 had a low barrier to entry" thing is a pretty big misnomer, because of all those reasons I just mentioned on the other page. You can only really be a problem or do damage once you've learned the fundamentals of 3 different characters and their interplay, and that takes quite a while and experimentation for figuring out DHCs and stuff.

We're talking casuals not people who have a preexisting motivation or necessary fighting game experience, right? Skill and motivation-wise these people are significantly worse than the worst people you see on Day 1 streams, mind you, and MvC's demand of knowledge is far greater than most other fighters or fighters casuals are likely to be accustomed to (MK, SF).

These are the people recouping dev costs.
 
Also this whole thing might be moot because if the gems really are similar to CVS2 Grooves we're all fucking wrong

Wait but that means infinites, oh no
 

Durden77

Member
Dive Kick is a harder than average game because it's all fundamentals. You have to really understand fighting games to win consistently in Dive Kick. In Marvel you can just Tatsu + Berserker Slash or Teleport + Beam assist to close the gap and have free offense, and then ABC your way to good damage.

But you say this stuff like it's common everday knowledge. Nearly every single person that I would show MvC3 to that didn't already know a thing or three about it didn't even know what an assist WAS, let alone how to use them properly and consistently. If you decide you want to learn that stuff then yeah, there's a path for you there. But comon telling someone to "dive then try to kick your opponent" is much easier for the average player than "use your beam assist to lock down your opponent so you can get some pressure in. Then once you get a hit confirm go into your basic combo", no matter how much or little they know about fighting games.

Which is why, as much as it pains me to say it, I think I do understand why they are trying to do away with assists. MvC3 was pretty damn accessible yes, but certain things about it are just hard for casual players to wrap their head around unless they really want to. And I think assists might actually be that main thing. I played a lot of MvC2 with my neighborhood friends, but it wasn't until I started getting deep into MvC3 that I even began to really wrap my head around them and how to use them properly.

There's just something about using another character to assist you, and the benefits that can bring especially with things like nullifying advancing guard and the like that many players might not even understand in the first place, that is just hard for a lot of people to wrap their head around. It's like a thing where they just can't understand that they are THAT important, and get put to the back burner or not used at all. And that creates a huge skill gap.

Now I'm not saying I AGREE with their removal of assist at all. I have to wait and see more about how the game operates. But I do see where they are coming from.

What makes MvC3 FEEL more difficult is that the skill ceiling is much higher than 90% of fighting games, and it's less random than most, so if someone is better than you it will be felt.

Marvel 3 had a very low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling. Anyone could pick up Wesker or Wolverine and do LMHS MMHS combos. This wasn't the case with any other Versus games. Of course, at the top level, that's when things get crazy. But guess what? Marvel Infinite scrubs are going to get fucked just as hard by top players. that's ALWAYS how it is.

Somehow they think making Marvel more accessible than 3 is the answer. I don't get it.

And all of this if very true. I don’t mean MvC3 is hard in that the basics are hard to understand, but in that the game has developed to the point to where those basics are now nearly null and void. The skill level is so high now that asking a basic ABC combo player to keep up with a veteran is like asking Michael Moore to keep up with a marathon runner. It's just a lost cause.

That initial accessibility, while it lead to one of the most fun fighting games on the planet all things considered, really doesn't matter at all from an actual accessibility stand point any more. And that wasn't just the player's doing, the game with it's insane amount of variables was designed like that.

MvC3 was a really weird mixture of trying to be the most accessible fighting game on the planet and also trying to be the most inaccessible. I actually think it would have been far more successful to a wider audience if they would have had better tutorials/story mode/ect. Because the accessibility was there for new players, but the know-how or even a path for it, which is just as important, was not.
 

K.Jack

Knowledge is power, guard it well
Has a video game series ever been simplified, explicitly to be more accessible for casual players, and come out better because of it?
 

NotLiquid

Member
I still think that making the game "accessible" is only a conceptual course and not a "fundamental" one.

I feel like the way that accessibility is going to manifest itself the most is in the extra content. They're trying to build up the game to be feature rich in terms of modes. On that front I think it's a good idea.

To what end that extends in the current mechanics they chose to go with is hard to say but I wouldn't by any means say it isn't a change that's exciting. I think the idea of removing a third character in the group, on paper, does seem like it may pander more to the concept of individualizing character experiences and allow people to have an easier time to dip their feet into the puddle, but that trade-off comes with the Infinity Stone gimmick that is a whole new can of worms. The question, I think, is whether or not the dev team actively thought of Infinity Stones as this game's main gimmick before they decided on what the team formation was going to pan out - i.e did the devs actually try 3v3 at one point with the new system but decided it was becoming too superfluous?

When game devs talk accessibility I don't think it's a matter of simplifying games themselves as much as it is allowing the players to feel as if they're entering the game without an entry barrier. What I'm wondering is if they decided to design Infinity based on the premise of being "beginner friendly" or if that's just how they wanted to market it when in reality it's rooted in the dev teams just trying on a new idea. After all, I still stick by the notion that Marvel 3's entry barrier is way too high for a game that doesn't really favor it's substance over it's style.

Ditching the assists or a third character doesn't necessarily make this game any less shallow, especially when you assure that you have some incredibly well knowledgeable people working on the game. The one thing it does is make it more presentable, and I assume that's what they're taking advantage of in marketing even though that might not have been the ulterior motive.
 

Negaduck

Member
Also this whole thing might be moot because if the gems really are similar to CVS2 Grooves we're all fucking wrong

Wait but that means infinites, oh no

They'd have to really make differences to gameplay to be that close to grooves. It sounds more like choosing your x factor buffs to me.
 

1upsuper

Member
I really don't want this to be Megaman vs Marvel going by this threads most wants
You know that's not what people are saying. It was insane that 3 didn't have Capcom's flagship character. If Darkstalkers can get several characters then Mega Man certainly can as well.
 

Durden77

Member
Has a video game series ever been simplified, explicitly to be more accessible for casual players, and come out better because of it?

Um arguably MvC3?

I'd defintley say SFV myself too.

XCOM?

There's more. Streamlining things is not always necessarily a bad thing.
 
So now we're already declaring that any success Infinite potentially sees will only be because of single-player content? There's absolutely no possibility that this game could end up with a fun, deep system at all and garner success from that?

This community is hilarious at times. It's good to see MVC3 players do exactly what MVC2 players did when MVC3 was unveiled, though.
 

cordy

Banned
nobody buys fighting games for the single player mode.

More people would buy a fighting game with more modes like a Story Mode and Arcade Mode, more features, more customization and more extras as a major selling point compared to a fighting game which has gameplay as it's major selling point. MK9 and MKX sold as much as it did based off everything else that doesn't relate to it's gameplay. Even if it had SFA2 gameplay, if they marketed the game with it's gameplay being top notch it wouldn't have sold that much.
 

Trey

Member
Infinite is promising a lot of singelplayer story content, which if they deliver on, will ensure the game sells extremely well.
 

Anth0ny

Member
A) I'd avoid calling MvC: Infinite "dumbed down" given what we've seen so far. "Different in a way that may or may not be worse" or "removes some of the things I liked most about the series" I think is more accurate.

B) With regards to simplifying controls and what not, its less about worse player competing with good players but rather that worse players can feel they can play at all. Let's not forget that to a lot of people, doing Shoryukens with any consistently is hard as fuck. The goal as far as I can tell here, and in any other fighting game where they use this sort of language, is not so much to close the skill gap but just make it easier for casuals to play at all.

A) I think the "dumbed down" comes up because they like throwing around "more accessible".

B) Again, players are going to get BODIED just as hard when they jump online. And then they'll quit like they always do. It's just how fighting games are. People don't want to hold that L, they stop playing. Fighting games have an uncanny ability to make you feel like you don't know how to play the game when you face someone better than you. They make you feel like you aren't even PLAYING the game because your opponent dictates the pace so hard.

It's not like a team based shooter, arguably the most popular games in the world, where you can pick on a shitty player on the other team. Or place blame on your team mates when you lose. OR rely on your team mates to help you. Shooting games never make you feel like your soul just got snatched like fighting games do. You got shot in the head? Respawn in 5 seconds and its on to the next one. Get perfected in fighting games? GOTTA HOLD THAT SHIT.

What I'm saying is... no matter how you "dumb down" a fighting game, no matter how easy or accessible you make it, you will always get bodied by someone better than you. And for most people, that feeling of utter hopelessness when you get exposed will cause them to quit the game forever.
 
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