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MGSV: Ground Zeroes - Spoilers Thread - #TeamBowie

A

atr0cious

Member
JayEH said:
At the end of Tape 4, is it implied that Paz is trying to have consensual sex with Chico? I know it ends with something like "Do you want to do it here?" and Chico keeps saying stop it. That part was weird.
Click to expand...

KittenMaster said:
I'm watching the latest 100 hour marathon, and I noticed something about Zero during MGS3.

It is very out of character for him to question the strategic value of an alligator costume.
Click to expand...

Woah...

Jame Bond in Octopussy uses an alligator disguise to get in.

Hmm...

Octopussy, disguise.

Octo decoy

Decoy Octopus.

Zero is Decoy Octopus in MGS3.
 
K

KittenMaster

Member
1964 though.
But hey, maybe he felt betrayed and went evil because of Octopussy?
Click to expand...
If we're going by the system where every major MGS event happens every ten years since 1964 then...

Oh... oh my...

The Man With the Golden Gun, considered one of the worst Bond movies, came out in 1974!
 
T

teknix

Neo Member
I was thinking about Kaz's performance at the end of GZ and realized the reason it seemed so over the top and a bit hard to watch was due to the huge jump in the realism of the characters and their realistic expressions and movement while holding onto the over the top vocal performances that could be overlooked in older games. That mixture was a bit jarring.

I can understand now why Kojima wanted a more subdued performance for Snake. The subtleness of the part where Snake says"What's up, Huey" was refreshing.
 
H

Holykael1

Banned
teknix said:
I was thinking about Kaz's performance at the end of GZ and realized the reason it seemed so over the top and a bit hard to watch was due to the huge jump in the realism of the characters and their realistic expressions and movement while holding onto the over the top vocal performances that could be overlooked in older games. That mixture was a bit jarring.

I can understand now why Kojima wanted a more subdued performance for Snake. The subtleness of the part where Snake says"What's up, Huey" was refreshing.
Click to expand...

But but but.. Kaz sounds so cool.
To me this was always a non issue because I always take Metal gear super seriously, even with the "ridiculous" things people point out.
 
L

Lernaean

Banned
rosaceadude2112 said:
This is pretty bunk, dude. Not that you're wrong, but bunk in the sense that this is portrayed as a fault with the series, something it's failed to accomplish, rather than one of its fundamental themes

The tragedy of Big Boss isn't that he becomes a bad guy, it's that he strives for an ideal that doesn't exist. After learning the truth about the Boss' defection, what he wants is to prevent another soldier from ever being the victim of political machinations again.He establishes Outer Heaven so soldiers can simply be soldiers, without being bound by the wills of suits and desk jockeys. But what he fails to realize is that there's no such thing as a neutral act of violence. A soldier fighting for Big Boss is no different than a soldier fighting for the Soviet Union. He becomes the thing he hates the most.

Snake Eater is a story about, above all things, perception. Remember that this was the first in the series to introduce the little thing where you can press R1 during cutscenes to see events through Snake's eyes. In doing so, we're given some extra insight into his character, even if it's just a jokey little bit where he's staring at Eva's chest while the Ocelots surround them. While it seems kinda small and insignificant, it's actually important enough that his eyes become one of the defining aspects of his character. His entire arc is illustrated through the first person view. MGS3 is a game where we see the lives of soldiers as through the campy lens of action movies(specifically modeled on James Bond and Rambo) before the facade is ripped away and we witness the true depth of their suffering. It's a campy action romp that ends as a tragedy. Honestly I think the way it plays with different tones is pretty genius.

The most important series of events in 3 is Snake's capture, torture and escape culminating in the boss fight with The Sorrow. The torture (In a microcosm of the whole game, the torture is first concealed behind a veil before it's gruesome nature is revealed) is the most graphic in the series up to this point, and there's certainly no way to "win" it like before. In Snake's cell we meet Johnny, who is actually somewhat of a warm and comforting presence. Johnny provides a humanity to all the enemy soldiers you've been facing thus far. He shows kindness to Snake, something rarely shown happening between opposing soldiers. Then the fight with the Sorrow confronts you(not just Snake, you) with your actions thus far, trying to make you rethink how callously you dispatch your foes. Now press R1 after all this happens. With his eye missing, Snake begins to quite literally see things differently. Most of the hidden R1 segments from here on out involve The Sorrow, the specter of death is shown to be guiding his every move. Snake doesn't kill Volgin, he's fried by a random bolt of lightning(summoned by the sorrow, natch). He's still beholden to forces beyond his control or comprehension. The final image we see is a POV shot of Snake tearing up as he stands before The Boss' grave. His vision is clouded here, just as his judgement will be. Literally and figuratively, he cannot see past his own pain. He is more or a less a slave to the traumas of his youth. His later ideals aren't based on any pragmatic view of what war should or shouldn't be, but just a personal desire to not be hurt in the same way again.

The important distinction between Big Boss and Solid Snake is that they're inversions of each other. Solid's story in MGS1 was all about him defying his "programming" and moving on to forge his own path despite what his genetic code(nevermind that nothing anyone in this game says about genes makes no fuckin sense, it's all metaphor) and the manipulations surrounding him were supposed to predetermine for him. On the other hand, when we meet Naked Snake he's still young and naive, but we the players know that in the future he will become a villain. In essence, his future is predetermined. Solid took what he learned about the world and used it to form his own set of values. Naked let them possess him and drive his every move. Moreover, Solid's eyepatch in 4 is on the opposite eye.

Metal Gear Solid 2 is about the folly of idolizing Solid Snake, and the danger of wanting to emulate him. The Solid Snake in this game is not the in-universe, canonical legendary soldier of Shadow Moses, but instead the video game character Solid Snake of Metal Gear Solid. And this video game character tells you not to take pixels at face value, but instead question who put the pixels there and the meaning behind them.

What I'm saying is, for Big Boss in MGSV to suddenly take charge and be the sole master of his destiny would contradict his entire character up to this point as well one of the series' main thematic conceits. Because well, being an independent man of action is an honorable and noble virtue, which is incompatible with the series' notions on war and conflict. War is a violation predicated entirely on lies and deceit, and participating in it of your own volition isn't meant to be admired or glorified.

holy shit this is long. sorry if this all seems out of order, i could ramble about mgs for a while.
Click to expand...

That's why i love MGS. It has the ability to really make you feel any feeling for it's characters, whether it is sympathy, hatred, scorn, whatever, and it's userbase consists of people insightful such as yourself, that analyze all this information they are given by the game. It's really not just a game series, it's a modern classic saga.
And on the other side you have this smirking genius that creates all that and laughs with our attempts to decode all this information.
Really thank you for this piece.

About BB not taking the reigns of his own life, i believe that he never was to be the mastermind of anything. He might be the perfect soldier but he also is a very emotional person, right from the beginning, easy and eager to love wholeheartedly and also hate so much that it would blind him. And he needed people around him. This old dog that had cleared mountainous obstacles on it's own, needed someone with him and he was maybe too attached with some of these bonds.

He also had his dreams, and those around him helped him make them come true, and now? Now we are at the point when his dreams are being destroyed and his loved ones taken away from him and i think, always my opinion, that it's not just the spirit of vengeance possessing him, but also a profound fear he'll be left alone and with his dreams unaccomplished, and that's the worst.

Take history, all those people that wrote history were depicted as giants, supreme beings, but in reality they were just people, just like you and me. Some would be great strategists and other great orators, but they were human, with their own passions and vices and fears. History is being written in the MGS universe too, and in the face of history BB is the legendary soldier, but playing him now we know he's just a man, a man with emotions, fears and passions and maybe he wants Kaz on his side because he respects his opinion and he thinks together they will drive the dream forward.
 
J

Jonnax

Member
From the tapes, Skullface says that he's known Big Boss for a long while. Are there any strong theories?
I can't recall anyone having a burnt face except for The Fury but even if he'd survived he would be in his 60s at least if he had fought in WWII with The Boss.

Unless of course they were wearing a mask like that one in MGS3 that imitates Volgins buddy. That seemed realistic enough to fool anyone!
 
K

KittenMaster

Member
Jonnax said:
From the tapes, Skullface says that he's known Big Boss for a long while. Are there any strong theories?
I can't recall anyone having a burnt face except for The Fury but even if he'd survived he would be in his 60s at least if he had fought in WWII with The Boss.

Unless of course they were wearing a mask like that one in MGS3 that imitates Volgins buddy. That seemed realistic enough to fool anyone!
Click to expand...

I think the problem is that people forget that Big Boss has had a life before Operation Snake Eater, especially one where he's participated in wars before then.
 
J

Jonnax

Member
KittenMaster said:
I think the problem is that people forget that Big Boss has had a life before Operation Snake Eater, especially one where he's participated in wars before then.
Click to expand...

But wasn't The Virtuous Mission the first time that Snake and Zero worked together? It'd be quite coincidental if Skullface knew Zero from way back and somehow interacted with Snake as well.
 
K

KittenMaster

Member
Jonnax said:
But wasn't The Virtuous Mission the first time that Snake and Zero worked together? It'd be quite coincidental if Skullface knew Zero from way back and somehow interacted with Snake as well.
Click to expand...
And his dealings with Zero could have came later (especially since it is within the context of him being CIPHER). It is totally possible for somebody to interact with two people without interacting with them at the same time.
 
T

Tookay

Member
teknix said:
I was thinking about Kaz's performance at the end of GZ and realized the reason it seemed so over the top and a bit hard to watch was due to the huge jump in the realism of the characters and their realistic expressions and movement while holding onto the over the top vocal performances that could be overlooked in older games. That mixture was a bit jarring.

I can understand now why Kojima wanted a more subdued performance for Snake. The subtleness of the part where Snake says"What's up, Huey" was refreshing.
Click to expand...

The thing that was weird about Kaz's performance on the heli was that it felt like the VA was breaking character and going into another voice completely.
 
A

akidnamededdy

Banned
Jonnax said:
But wasn't The Virtuous Mission the first time that Snake and Zero worked together? It'd be quite coincidental if Skullface knew Zero from way back and somehow interacted with Snake as well.
Click to expand...

I don't think it was. It's been a minute since I played MGS3 but I had the impression that they already knew each other.
 
B

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
Big Boss wasn't a founding member of the FOX Unit. The Boss and Zero created the unit shortly after The Boss killed the Sorrow.
 
J

JayEH

Junior Member
Yo did anyone else notice this in the TPP E3 trailer?

RlhXvzP.png


Is that the Medic/Ishmael? He's the only one without a mask and looks kinda like him from the (brief) glimpses we see of him in GZ.

Sorry if this is old news.

Edit: Sorry for bad quality.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
bernardobri said:
Big Boss wasn't a founding member of the FOX Unit. The Boss and Zero created the unit shortly after The Boss killed the Sorrow.
Click to expand...

Big Boss helped found it as well, remember the Virtuous Mission was their first real mission if it succeeded they would be formally organized into an official unit.

(skip to 3:56)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbfhmuxsorY&list=PL1604CAAEC9E334CA&index=2

KittenMaster said:
I don't know but Kaz's business efforts cost him an arm and a leg.
Click to expand...

Hey oh!
 
C

cackhyena

Member
Ugh, watching cutscenes from 3 makes me want the whole game redone with TPP's engine for glorious open world/ jungle game play. Out of all the games in the series, it's the perfect fit. I can dream.

kasane said:
peace walker spoilers
Wasn't kaz assassinated at his home 2001 i think ?

What timeline is TPP in again?
Click to expand...
1984
 
B

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
foxtrot3d said:
Big Boss helped found it as well, remember the Virtuous Mission was their first real mission if it succeeded they would be formally organized into an official unit.

(skip to 3:56)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbfhmuxsorY&list=PL1604CAAEC9E334CA&index=2
Click to expand...

Yes, but the unit had already its time being under CIA's tutelage with The Boss and Zero being the main managers, and Big Boss was merely an agent for the faction. He didn't even know that The Boss was working with FOX before VR.
 
H

Holykael1

Banned
Tookay said:
Tell me all about the vaginal bombs in Gitmo...
Click to expand...

Honestly if you abstract yourself from the horribleness of the situation, it was a pretty smart move, also Im sure it wasn't in the vagina, it must have been in the uterus.
It serves it's purpose by establishing Skullface as a horrible, relentless, smart and cunning man.

Regarding Kaz's change of accent, I didnt notice but that's probably because Im not an english native speaker and cant distinguish some accents.
 
G

GAMEPROFF

Banned
Does Paz or Chico refere to Big Boss with his Codename to him during the Ground Zeroes Mission? I cant remember correctly, but I think it was just Kaz via Codec?

Chicos strange behavior when Big Boss finds him made me suspisious, that something is up... But maybe its because Chico is just in panic.
 
R

Rojo

Member
JayEH said:
Yo did anyone else notice this in the TPP E3 trailer?

RlhXvzP.png


Is that the Medic/Ishmael? He's the only one without a mask and looks kinda like him from the (brief) glimpses we see of him in GZ.

Sorry if this is old news.

Edit: Sorry for bad quality.
Click to expand...

yea i caught that im thinking the same thing.
 
R

Rogue Agent

Banned
GAMEPROFF said:
Does Paz or Chico refere to Big Boss with his Codename to him during the Ground Zeroes Mission? I cant remember correctly, but I think it was just Kaz via Codec?
Click to expand...

In GZ, Kaz refers to him as Snake or Boss. Chico refers to him as Snake. Paz refers to him as Big Boss. Huey refers to him as Boss.

Basically, people on the outside would refer to him as Big Boss - his title given to him by the US. Like Skull Face, for example.
 
K

Kinyou

Member
Was it actually covered in the one of the games yet why Zero goes so bonkers? I've only heard that he has different ideals than Big Boss in how to achieves The Boss's dream but does that really explain why he goes over so many corpses, backstabbing wherever he goes? Same thing for Para-Medic, how does she go from the movie loving cutie to crazy doctor that tortures Grey Fox?
 
F

Fancy Clown

Member
Kinyou said:
Was it actually covered in the one of the games yet why Zero goes so bonkers? I've only heard that he has different ideals than Big Boss in how to achieves The Boss's dream but does that really explain why he goes over so many corpses, backstabbing wherever he goes? Same thing for Para-Medic, how does she go from the movie loving cutie to crazy doctor that tortures Grey Fox?
Click to expand...

Because it was convenient to the plot. None of the games have showed those characters having a realistic transformation into the megalomaniacs they become, although TPP might.
 
K

KojiKnight

Member
Fancy Clown said:
Because it was convenient to the plot. None of the games have showed those characters having a realistic transformation into the megalomaniacs they become, although TPP might.
Click to expand...

This. I expect TPP to cover most of this... a LOT of time is going to pass, and us viewing this "sudden" massive change along with the time skip for Big Boss will allow them to explain the changes without it being a simple exposition dump.
 
R

RavenH2

Member
KojiKnight said:
This. I expect TPP to cover most of this... a LOT of time is going to pass, and us viewing this "sudden" massive change along with the time skip for Big Boss will allow them to explain the changes without it being a simple exposition dump.
Click to expand...

Speculation ahead, be warned

I think ground zeros has already given us a taste of the changes the characters go through in the saga. We all know Big Boss treats Liquid very badly, as stated by him in MGS1. Perhaps it's because after Chico's death in the Helicopter crash he doesn't want that kind of attachment to a kid anymore, hence when (if) he meets Eli (Liquid?) he basically treats him like ass...

If I remember correctly BB wasn't very nice to Chico when you first met him in PW, but then it kinda grew on him. He grew attached to him, so much so, that he planned to rescue (both chico and paz) instead of doing what would have been logical for a PMC, execute them. He walks into a trap to rescue them. After all that, I don't think BB would ever want to be attached emotionaly to a kid a again.

As for Zero's motives, to me it was very clear that Skullface worked for Cipher, but Zero didn't trust him, and he has his own motives amongst them, he wants to kill Zero (perhaps he is resposible for what happened to the factory in his hometown?)

We all know Zero survives MGSV, so it is logical for him to turn to AIs. They don't betray you like Skullface did, and I'm sure Skullface will get very close to Zero, enoguh to make up his mind about the Patriots system in the future...
 
D

doofy102

Member
rosaceadude2112 said:
Snake Eater is a story about, above all things, perception. Remember that this was the first in the series to introduce the little thing where you can press R1 during cutscenes to see events through Snake's eyes. In doing so, we're given some extra insight into his character, even if it's just a jokey little bit where he's staring at Eva's chest while the Ocelots surround them. While it seems kinda small and insignificant, it's actually important enough that his eyes become one of the defining aspects of his character. His entire arc is illustrated through the first person view. MGS3 is a game where we see the lives of soldiers as through the campy lens of action movies(specifically modeled on James Bond and Rambo) before the facade is ripped away and we witness the true depth of their suffering. It's a campy action romp that ends as a tragedy. Honestly I think the way it plays with different tones is pretty genius.
Click to expand...

Ahh, so good. I get it now why Volgin says, "The most important thing to a soldier is his eyes." That line always stuck with me for some reason. It's tied into MGS3's metaphore.

And when the Boss passes a message onto snake via Eva: "I've never seen such clear eyes." Not even Snake and Eva know what the hell she is talking about then. But you can tell it's important, somehow, "because it came from the Boss" etc but really because of how the game takes the time to ponder this line and its significance for a moment.

And it's so good to see someone looking at MGS3's tone and not taking the "it's inconsistent and bad" stance. Whilst "in theory" those arguments might sound correct, really the game feels perfectly fine tone-wise the way it is, it always did, and how that works is probably too complicated a question for armchair critics to tackle so they try to ignore it.
 
A

Alienous

Member
Kinyou said:
Was it actually covered in the one of the games yet why Zero goes so bonkers? I've only heard that he has different ideals than Big Boss in how to achieves The Boss's dream but does that really explain why he goes over so many corpses, backstabbing wherever he goes? Same thing for Para-Medic, how does she go from the movie loving cutie to crazy doctor that tortures Grey Fox?
Click to expand...

Para-Medic was probably a character who got too caught up in bringing fiction too life. Given millions in resources she probably just lost track of her morality.

Zero. Hmm. I'd say it'd be realizing that the government you work for is corrupt at its core. That they had you send your best soldier to kill his own mentor over money, essentially. That, despite your promises, Sokolov didn't make it back to his family. In Portable Ops, in a scene that seemed more about establishing the reveal in MGS4 than being a cohesive part of the plot, Ocelot (working for the "man with the same codename as Null", Zero) secures the Legacy. That's the foundation of Zero's power, he's one of the few privy to the knowledge of its existence.

The thing is, Zero doesn't go 'insane', he assumes control of the corrupt government he witnessed. We don't get to see much of Cipher, but what we do see isn't evil. The problem surfaces when AI are put in charge, and it is those that accelerate the war economy and view humanity as decadent and in need of shaping. The modern, AI driven Patriots is what we see for most of the series.
 
R

R-User!

Member
Fancy Clown said:
Because it was convenient to the plot. None of the games have showed those characters having a realistic transformation into the megalomaniacs they become, although TPP might.
Click to expand...

*with a wry grin on my face*
Or: Please be excited for Metal Gear Solid 6 in 2019/20!
See you again Snake!
 
V

Various Artists

Banned
mcz117chief said:
So.... he was stabing himself with a jack until he made a hole for it in his chest ? That is a crazy lvl of crazy.
Click to expand...

No proof of it, but just a theory. He had seen so much shit he probably needed a way to "feel" again. Think of like what a cutter does and why. Physical pain as a way to deal with emotional trauma. His tape recorder was all he had to hurt himself.
 
K

Kinyou

Member
JPizzle84 said:
No proof of it, but just a theory. He had seen so much shit he probably needed a way to "feel" again. Think of like what a cutter does and why. Physical pain as a way to deal with emotional trauma. His tape recorder was all he had to hurt himself.
Click to expand...
Yeah, compared to Paz his torture didn't seem very physical but more on a psychological level. Self harm seems likely.

Alienous said:
Para-Medic was probably a character who got too caught up in bringing fiction too life. Given millions in resources she probably just lost track of her morality.

Zero. Hmm. I'd say it'd be realizing that the government you work for is corrupt at its core. That they had you send your best soldier to kill his own mentor over money, essentially. That, despite your promises, Sokolov didn't make it back to his family. In Portable Ops, in a scene that seemed more about establishing the reveal in MGS4 than being a cohesive part of the plot, Ocelot (working for the "man with the same codename as Null", Zero) secures the Legacy. That's the foundation of Zero's power, he's one of the few privy to the knowledge of its existence.

The thing is, Zero doesn't go 'insane', he assumes control of the corrupt government he witnessed. We don't get to see much of Cipher, but what we do see isn't evil. The problem surfaces when AI are put in charge, and it is those that accelerate the war economy and view humanity as decadent and in need of shaping. The modern, AI driven Patriots is what we see for most of the series.
Click to expand...
While those explanations make somewhat sense I think it's a missed opportunity that we so far didn't even really hear Zero explaining himself. I mean, I get that he might fight the corrupt government, but why fight Big Boss, his comrade?
But maybe that confrontation is finally happening in Phantom Pain and he gets to explain himself a little more.
 
W

wintermute0

Banned
Kinyou said:
Yeah, compared to Paz his torture didn't seem very physical but more on a psychological level. Self harm seems likely.


While those explanations make somewhat sense I think it's a missed opportunity that we so far didn't even really hear Zero explaining himself. I mean, I get that he might fight the corrupt government, but why fight Big Boss, his comrade?
But maybe that confrontation is finally happening in Phantom Pain and he gets to explain himself a little more.
Click to expand...

Big Boss and Zero fell out over the Les Enfants Terribles project. Zero went behind Big Boss's back, cloned him, and then expected Big Boss to be ok with it. Of course, BB wasn't ok with it and this severed their friendship. I'm not putting a spoiler tag, because this information has been known since Metal Gear Solid 1.

The Phantom Pain will probably explain more of Zero's motives behind Cipher (The Patriots), and it will probably go more in depth about Big Boss and Zero's antagonistic relationship.

I expect The Phantom Pain to answer a lot of key questions about MGS lore. I'm excited.
 
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