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Microsoft Is Bringing Windows 10 To ARM, x86 Apps Included
- Thread starter JaggedSac
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Shogmaster
Member
MS is accelerating Windows on ARM development because Intel threw in the towel on Atom brand in 2016. MS has already been enjoying marketshare growth via $100 Atom based x86 tablets.
ARM versions won't be much cheaper than $100 Atom SOC tablets. But it will ensure that ultra low cost segment isn't going to be jeopardized by earnings and profits fluctuations of one line of products from one hardware vendor (Intel).
hm, growth in Chinese-only devices, most manufacturers dropped their cheap tablets since they could not make money on them despite Microsoft giving away Windows licenses and Intel going all the way down with the pricing.
This is for latest flagship Snapdragon 835, so they wont be cheap. Emulation will likely be way worse than on laptop but at the same time who cares. Point is being able to do some work if needed, not doing it all the time.
I assume this is for things like Surface phone, but even more for premium tablets and things like laptops competing with Chrome OS.
killer rin
Member
But when we are talking about Microsoft Rebooting the OS, he is still right. They only Rebooted it twice from Windows Mobile to Windows Phone 7, and from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8. The fact that certain devices didn't get upgraded to 10 is irrelevant because there is still an upgrade path from 8.1 to 10 in place
Shogmaster
Member
It might require the top of the line ARM SOC today to run Windows, but in 5 years, the low end ARM SOCs will be able to do the same.
Yup that's almost certainly the long term play.
Also, don't count Intel out yet. Did you know that Intel once made their own line of ARM SoCs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XScale
If this x86 on ARM thing takes off, I'd expect Intel to move in, just like they changed horses from Itanium to AMD64 when it became clear that AMD64 was going to win the 64-bit wars...
Shogmaster
Member
I use to have an XScale device actually. I was like '206MHz?!? gotdam this thing is fast!!!' lolz
Frustrated_me
Member
This isn't true IMO, like at all. I know organizations with 100's of thousands PCs who are very close to finishing their Windows 10 testing. It's one of the more popular versions of Windows that is being welcomed by end users and administrators.
michaelius
Banned
As usual when Microsoft is making promises that sound too good to be true wait for actual implementation because the ugly things usually hide in the details they are not talking about - like forced telemetry in "free" Windows 10 or bringing xbox games to PC where Spencer forgot to tell us they will be UWP only.
Nikodemos
Member
Worth noting that the test device in that Youtube video runs an SD820 with 4 GB RAM, which is the same config as the HP Elite X3 and the new Alcatel Idol 4S Windows (T-Mobile exclusive for now).
I wonder if Microsoft will eventually create an install pack for Windows Phone, to use for Windows compatible devices. Then you'll be able to install Windows on your Android phone. Maybe even dual-boot.
I wonder if Microsoft will eventually create an install pack for Windows Phone, to use for Windows compatible devices. Then you'll be able to install Windows on your Android phone. Maybe even dual-boot.
My Dell x50v was running at 512MHz. It was a beast. I sill have it (not sure about charging cable though).
Shogmaster
Member
LOL, I just remembered that I spent like $1200 back in 2010 on a used Fujitsu P1620D, an 8.9" LCD 1.2GHz U7600 Core 2 Duo Windows UMPC with a resistive single point touch screen.
Now days, you can pick up a $100 7" tablet that runs Windows 10 with multitouch and Atom. And the Atom SOC DESTROYS that ULV Core 2 Duo!
Now days, you can pick up a $100 7" tablet that runs Windows 10 with multitouch and Atom. And the Atom SOC DESTROYS that ULV Core 2 Duo!
NeOak
Member
I remember wanting that. I had bought a Dell Latitude XT with a 1.33Ghz C2D in 2009 and used it until the Surface Pro 2 came out.
I'm not sure I want steam to put even more toss on it's service :3
It's been terrible enough in the last year without the mobile market :3
If I owned Intel stock I'd be rather nervous.
So at the high end Skylake has had problems, AMD is about to try and broadside them for the first time in decades right as sales are stagnating. Meanwhile on the low end they are being brutalized by ARM, they have given up on their competing mobile chip line. Now with this news, x86 legacy, the main thing stopping the same happening to their midrange lines for consumers and servers might just disappear.
...
Personally I really do want to move back to Windows phone. I'd love to see a truely great device from MS. Something actually desirable and successful. I have absolutely no love for Android, I tolerate it for the time being and I imagine I'll not alone. Microsoft have a great opportunity to hit all the right design and performance notes, build a device that is a real 'what you need of it' tool not the same old thing.
Wireless displays, AR, VR, cellular as just a data network, etc. Imagine the surface studio, but it was just a dumb display being run from your pocket. Lot of really interesting possibilities for how the future of computing may be.
So at the high end Skylake has had problems, AMD is about to try and broadside them for the first time in decades right as sales are stagnating. Meanwhile on the low end they are being brutalized by ARM, they have given up on their competing mobile chip line. Now with this news, x86 legacy, the main thing stopping the same happening to their midrange lines for consumers and servers might just disappear.
...
Personally I really do want to move back to Windows phone. I'd love to see a truely great device from MS. Something actually desirable and successful. I have absolutely no love for Android, I tolerate it for the time being and I imagine I'll not alone. Microsoft have a great opportunity to hit all the right design and performance notes, build a device that is a real 'what you need of it' tool not the same old thing.
Wireless displays, AR, VR, cellular as just a data network, etc. Imagine the surface studio, but it was just a dumb display being run from your pocket. Lot of really interesting possibilities for how the future of computing may be.
Alx
Member
The main issue with WinRT is that it couldn't run Win32 apps, precisely.
boneyjangles
Member
Well x86 is approaching 40 years old, I doubt it's going to last forever with all that legacy crap.
NeOak
Member
Hyperbole much?
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Which is why UWP is there.
This has some very neat potential when it comes to Windows sticks and those tiny and cheap Windows microcomputers. Qualcomm may also be ready to take a nice bite at the thin client segment here.
It's simply not the full experience yet but it's obviously a very important step forward.
It's not a viable option (or one with many headaches) for anyone doing serious IT work to use Win 10 + ARM based chipset without x86_64 emulation support. There's various tools out there that are neither x86 (or need lots of ram) nor UWP.
I've already posted this in the phone thread, but I think that they have to get it right first time this time around.
If it's a case of 1st generation ARM W10 devices being barely useable because the of performance like they were with RT initially, that's that. Performance has to be acceptable and on par with low cost Intel powered devices.
If they manage to do that, the low cost market segment might open up for them and there's also a chance that phones running Windows may find a viable niche in business.
The video is encouraging, especially since it's still almost a year to go until we'll see devices I suspect.
If it's a case of 1st generation ARM W10 devices being barely useable because the of performance like they were with RT initially, that's that. Performance has to be acceptable and on par with low cost Intel powered devices.
If they manage to do that, the low cost market segment might open up for them and there's also a chance that phones running Windows may find a viable niche in business.
The video is encouraging, especially since it's still almost a year to go until we'll see devices I suspect.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Your definition of "serious IT work" is very narrow. There's a huge market for thin clients and the like. Windows on ARM may not be a choice for some users, but it may be very interesting for others. Qualcomm could be sitting on a pile of gold if it doesn't screw it like Intel did when it tried its luck in the mobile market.
It won't be sufficient for them, that's for sure. But they're shopping in a different segment anyway, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I mean, I wouldn't expect to run multiple virtual machines on a device like that, either (nor would I expect that of a £200.- Intel powered laptop to be fair).
The question for me is performance like I said above. If an ARM powered W10 device can compete with a cheap Intel powered one when it comes to "standard" business and home use software that's brilliant. If Win32 application lag or the OS itself lags in full desktop mode, that's a massive problem.
The question for me is performance like I said above. If an ARM powered W10 device can compete with a cheap Intel powered one when it comes to "standard" business and home use software that's brilliant. If Win32 application lag or the OS itself lags in full desktop mode, that's a massive problem.
The future of Business for sure. wish it was already here, I will be getting a new PC next month for work. I would love it to be something like this in a small light tough form factor.
Fantasy Final
Member
If Microsoft is making a full Windows 10 experience on a phone, I am switching from iOS to Windows day 1.
Sad Affleck
Member
Nvidia's leadership must be creaming their pants right now. Nvidia SoCs running x86 games. A Switch-like device able to play most of your Steam library. Oh yeah.
Edit: Because I'm guessing that this won't be an exclusive feature for Snapdragons.
Edit: Because I'm guessing that this won't be an exclusive feature for Snapdragons.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Most of those x86 devices have flopped hard.
infinityBCRT
Member
I imagine this emulation must be based on the same approach they took for 360 backwards compatibility. If so, this is promising.
Also, this gives me hope that there could be a portable arm based xbox device in the future. They aren't stuck on x86 forever.
This is precisely how they get back into the mobile market with a Surface phone. It's a phone you can carry around with you and use for calls, Twitter, Facebook, and such, then when you get home, you dock it and it becomes your workhorse PC. They already have Continuum developed and ready to go for this use case.
This is way too early of a sample to be even remotely functional but holy heck, they are in the open with this announcement now. I for one welcome our full Windows on ARM overlord.
Intel surely is not happy about this.
Now that the principal drawback is gone (having Windows as a backup) I expect Apple to make the big jump (again) with macOS and i guess they'll actually be the first ones to ship a non-beta product with their desktop OS on ARM.
Intel surely is not happy about this.
Now that the principal drawback is gone (having Windows as a backup) I expect Apple to make the big jump (again) with macOS and i guess they'll actually be the first ones to ship a non-beta product with their desktop OS on ARM.
Yeah. If they can get 64bit x86 going, the there would be a lot more to talk about
This is great news. To be able to get a full desktop experience on an ARM based device would be huge.
But I wonder if they are also planning to scale down the install size of Windows 10. As of now you need 20GB of open space, and that is just the initial install, then at least another 2GB worth of updates. Who knows how much more the emulator will add on to the OS.
To me this seems like it is MS's attempt to combat the rising popularity of Chrome OS which Already runs on ARM processors. They want the education market back and this may be their thicket.
But I wonder if they are also planning to scale down the install size of Windows 10. As of now you need 20GB of open space, and that is just the initial install, then at least another 2GB worth of updates. Who knows how much more the emulator will add on to the OS.
To me this seems like it is MS's attempt to combat the rising popularity of Chrome OS which Already runs on ARM processors. They want the education market back and this may be their thicket.
I doubt that they're engineering W10 for ARM "down" from the x86 version, but rather "up" from Windows 10 Mobile (W10M + the emulator) which is very small in size and doesn't require the same sort of patches.
edit: the W10M system is less than 4GB on my phone btw.
soxinthebox
Member
Yeah I wonder if this is a feature built on top of the existing Continuum desktop software (obviously no current phones will support it though).
I'm assuming Win10M is that small because it lacks the desktop functionality. Once MS starts adding drivers, services, etc to get the full desktop experience, it is going to get huge. MS needs to make a Non-legacy edition that is lean.
So in theory I could put steam on a new Surface Phone and play a bunch of games on it? The video shows it running world of tanks pretty well on a snapdragon 820. Next year's snapdragon should run it even better.
I'll just need someone to make a decent controller overlay and I'll be in heaven.
I'll just need someone to make a decent controller overlay and I'll be in heaven.
NeOak
Member
Apple first? How? They haven't shown anything running on ARM. Even when they showed OS X on x86 it still took a while to come out.
Unless you mean they'll make iOS into a desktop OS and ship that.
In theory, yes.
This is a common misconception. Intel did not kill the entire Atom line, only their mobile(ie. tablets and phones) Braxton and Sofia architectures as NeOak mentioned earlier. This has no affect on the Surface.
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
I see this being more useful for low-end tablets and Chromebook competitors. I think the phone side of the equation is not happening.
Too bad it's just x86-32 for the moment. It's quite a feat, but people are transitioning to 64-bit binaries now.
Too bad it's just x86-32 for the moment. It's quite a feat, but people are transitioning to 64-bit binaries now.
NeOak
Member
There is no new $40 chip replacing the current x7-z8750 either. Only Core m's.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
You haven't used Continuum yet, have you? It already has that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KNzatcI9Fqw
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