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[cyberheater]

Hmm. Is he talking speculatively or from an informed pov?

He's saying what some of us have guessed for a while now, about things being limited to the windows partition. Which would kind of suck, not really a reversal of their existing policies.

I believe it's pure speculation on his part. At this point. Only clowd knows...

 

[JawzPause]

So cboat was right again according to the latest updates regarding ram and Windows 8.

 

[twobear]

So cboat was right again according to the latest updates regarding ram and Windows 8.

The latest updates are people who're not working with the Xbone—and expressly say that they're not interesting in working on it or buying it—speculating about it?

That's vaguer even than MS's PR.

 

[Amir0x]

Well have at it and run off the big differences of these console, please i insist.

This is pasted from the thread linked.

I made this post the last time someone claimed they were basically the same system now ->

Yeah that was my list. The No self-publishing vs. self-publishing is crossed out on my list though now, and someone told me that Sony has their own Smartglass-esque solution that doesn't require Vita, so I have to look into that.

 

[Knuf]

Quick & dirty:

 

[Hot Coldman]

Their attitude to this "reveal" boggles my fucking mind. That's core, industry-standard functionality, assholes! It ain't supposed to get its own grand reveal, you announce that shit ASAP!

 

[abic]

Yep. All I see is a company that clearly has no idea what they are doing.

No, it's a company busy playing catchup to Sony.

They thought they could win this generation easy, had it in their pocket, just lock it up with DRM and always online.

They got caught out.

To be fair, this is an incredibly fast recovery -- reversing DRM 7 days after E3, coming up with an Indie program possibly a few weeks after.. They have a shot.


Sony did good, clear vision, no reversals, strong foot forward.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

It seems Phil Harrison is the reason why MS deiced allow self-publish

http://www.oxm.co.uk/58990/microsof...ext-gen-xbox-can-play-work-in-progress-games/

 

[JawzPause]

The latest updates are people who're not working with the Xbone—and expressly say that they're not interesting in working on it or buying it—speculating about it?

That's vaguer even than MS's PR.

Why is it speculation? I would think the developer knows more than us about the development of games on XB1.

 

[Amir0x]

Their attitude to this "reveal" boggles my fucking mind. That's core, industry-standard functionality, assholes! It ain't supposed to get its own grand reveal, you announce that shit ASAP!

It doesn't surprise me too much though. Microsoft put themselves behind a bit of a rock and a hard place when it comes to what's left in their arsenal to surprise gamers after E3. Microsoft felt they had to reveal as many games as possible to try to get ahead of the suffocating negativity they were facing regarding Xbox One. The problem is, that failed anyway and now they did a 180. But that still means that Microsoft was left revealing 85-90% of all their first year Xbox One stuff already, whereas Sony has only 25-30% revealed. So naturally they'd be scrambling for big guns to show off at the remaining trade shows this year. I guess they thought self-publishing would get big applause lines like Sony's 'ode-to-consumer-rights' from E3. I don't think they realize how awkward that would have been for them. So I consider it a bullet dodged for them lol

 

[ekim]

Why is it speculation? I would think the developer knows more than us about the development of games on XB1.

MS said in the GB interview, that one can use the full HW.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-self-publishing-on-xbox-one/1100-4696/

GB: But this isn’t a situation where, if you just pick up an Xbox One at Target, you’re only going to be able to access certain parts of the memory, certain parts of the graphics processor? This is going to allow you, at least eventually, once it’s all put into place, to be able to do everything that someone like Respawn is doing?

Whitten: That’s right.

 

[twobear]

Why is it speculation? I would think the developer knows more than us about the development of games on XB1.

A developer who isn't interested in developing for or even buying an Xbone. Why would they be any more clued in about a policy that MS haven't officially announced yet?

It's not impossible that it will be limited to the Windows RT partition, but I think we should probably wait for stronger 'news' than the speculation of somebody who, by their own admission, doesn't actually know.

 

[c0de]

MS said in the GB interview, that one can use the full HW.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-self-publishing-on-xbox-one/1100-4696/

This is a giant bomb if true!

 

[JawzPause]

A developer who isn't interested in developing for or even buying an Xbone. Why would they be any more clued in about a policy that MS haven't officially announced yet?

It's not impossible that it will be limited to the Windows RT partition, but I think we should probably wait for stronger 'news' than the speculation of somebody who, by their own admission, doesn't actually know.

Fair enough

 

[LastChance2Frag]

MS said in the GB interview, that one can use the full HW.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-self-publishing-on-xbox-one/1100-4696/

Seriously Eurogamer obviously didn't get the memo, but clearly developer Brian Provinciano knows all the inside news and has no problem with Xbox as a whole - "I have no interest in even buying an Xbox One, let alone developing for it"

I wonder if they post this nonsense because they didn't get the 10 minute interview with Whitten.

 

[FranXico]

MS said in the GB interview, that one can use the full HW.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-self-publishing-on-xbox-one/1100-4696/

By "full hardware" he could also mean the same way that WinRT apps access the full hardware of the device they run on.

 

[Withnail]

MS said in the GB interview, that one can use the full HW.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-self-publishing-on-xbox-one/1100-4696/

So they're going to publicly release full documentation for the GPU and other low level hardware so that anybody has full access without signing an NDA? I'll believe it when I see it.

A more likely situation is that there is a public SDK and runtime for indies and a different runtime for the major publishers to use. Which means the bigger indies (Blow, Oddworld etc) are still expected to duke it out with the massage apps.

 

[MMaRsu]

It seems Phil Harrison is the reason why MS deiced allow self-publish

http://www.oxm.co.uk/58990/microsof...ext-gen-xbox-can-play-work-in-progress-games/

More like Sony

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

More like Sony

I doubt that,i like indie but it's not like indie will have really big effect to the sales,unless it's minecraft level,but minecraft already on 360 and will coming XB1

Of course maybe in here whatever MS did,people will say it must because Sony

 

[Leflus]

More like Sony

So this is why they sent Agent Phil to MS!

 

[CambriaRising]

I doubt that,i like indie but it's not like indie will have really big effect to the sales,unless it's minecraft level,but minecraft already on 360 and will coming XB1

Of course maybe in here whatever MS did,people will say it must because Sony

Ms takes a 30% cut of every digital game sold on the console, it absolutely makes a big difference.

 

[cyberheater]

By "full hardware" he could also mean the same way that WinRT apps access the full hardware of the device they run on.

Nope. It's obvious from his comments that the intention and the goal is to allow full blown game development. It's pretty clear from Whittens' comments.

 

[Clear]

Word to the wise: A stock machine is not a devkit, at best its a test unit.

 

[cyberheater]

Word to the wise: A stock machine is not a devkit, at best its a test unit.

If it allows you to develop games for Xbox One then by definition it's a dev kit.

 

[Clear]

If it allows you to develop games for Xbox One then by definition it's a dev kit.

No, it really isn't.

You might be able to make it fit based purely on semantics, but that's just a PR line, the reality is far different.

 

[cyberheater]

No, it really isn't.

You might be able to make it fit based purely on semantics, but that's just a PR line, the reality is far different.

What's the difference?

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Ms takes a 30% cut of every digital game sold on the console, it absolutely makes a big difference.

...Yes?same as Steam and GOG

 

[CambriaRising]

...Yes?same as Steam and GOG

What do Steam and GOG have to do with what I said?

My point is that for every game on the console, it is a potential revenue boost. That's why they want this, not to drive console sales.

 

[Mandoric]

What's the difference?

Manuals, support software, debugger access (and usually modified hardware to allow the debugger to run at the same time as a game.)

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

What do Steam and GOG have to do with what I said?

My point is that for every game on the console, it is a potential revenue boost. That's why they want this, not to drive console sales.

Then why don't you just simply said revenue boost because more digital games there?

 

[Black Republican]

It seems Phil Harrison is the reason why MS deiced allow self-publish

http://www.oxm.co.uk/58990/microsof...ext-gen-xbox-can-play-work-in-progress-games/

Good job Phil

 

[dragonelite]

Debug unit is good enough.
As long as it can run code and you can program in debug tools it should be fine for a $99 price point.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

They always planned WinRT and XBLIG v2. They're not changing the policy now, they're just changing the message.

So, you're saying devs still cannot self-publish?

 

[cyberheater]

Manuals, support software, debugger access (and usually modified hardware to allow the debugger to run at the same time as a game.)

And why can't MS provide access for those signed up devs. The machine has dedicated cpu cores for the OS/hypervisor. There is no reason why MS can't include debugging tools on a consumer unit once you've signed up to the dev program and downloaded the dev tools to your Xbox One.

 

[DPJ]

Even with 180 mk2 it's going to be interesting to see which indie developers are going to be prepared to give Xbone a shot... because I can't see all of the guys hitting out at MS of late being so quick to forgive and forget.

Phil Fish seems unmoved, and I can't see the Retro City Rampage guy being eager to give them another shot... It'll be interesting to see what'll happen now with guys like Just Add Water and Jon Blow and such.

But yes, I agree with the posts pointing out how laughable it is that MS wanted to make a big show of them playing catch up to everyone else as though it's something they'd deserve a pat on the back for.

Oh, and anyone who seriously thinks this wasn't a reactionary move (to arguable degrees perhaps) with regard to Sony on MS' part(Again) is simply deluding themselves.

 

[Withnail]

So, you're saying devs still cannot self-publish?

They can self-publish the same way they could on the 360, in the indie ghetto with the massage apps.

 

[Steroyd]

I doubt that,i like indie but it's not like indie will have really big effect to the sales,unless it's minecraft level,but minecraft already on 360 and will coming XB1.

But we won't know what the next Minecraft or Angry Birds will be until after it sells.

 

[Mandoric]

And why can't MS provide access for those signed up devs. The machine has dedicated cpu cores for the OS/hypervisor. There is no reason why MS can't include debugging tools on a consumer unit once you've signed up to the dev program and downloaded the dev tools to your Xbox One.

It would require granting end-user access to the hypervisor, which MS is unlikely to be willing to do. Even then there would easily be edge cases that a retail unit can't handle; want to make a game that uses all 5GB of RAM, and debug problems that occur with the OS at full load? You can't, because the OS is then getting cranked down to fit the debugger in. Have a bug that nukes everything but the hypervisor? Sorry, most I/O drivers run outside of Ring 0, you're not getting anything worthwhile unless you have a dedicated debug port.

 

[ChorusLindarr]

On XB1 the Windows OS and Game OS run as virtual machines.

If these indie games are effectively apps running on the Win8 OS then they will invariably only have access to the Win8 reserved HW resources. It would be impossible for them to see anything outside that.

So for the Win8 OS it'll have 3GB DDR3, 2 Jaguar CPU cores and the entire GPU (less many of the lower level features) to play with. It's not the full system's resources but it's enough to produce some superb content.

On the other hand if they are running on the Game OS then there's no issue, and they'll have full access to everything published AAA developers do.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

So cboat was right again according to the latest updates regarding ram and Windows 8.

How do sites keep falling for the RCR devs rants?

It's sad.

 

[cyberheater]

It would require granting end-user access to the hypervisor, which MS is unlikely to be willing to do.

No it wouldn't. The debugging tools and telemetry data would still be run under the protection of the hypervisor. No extra permissions required.

Even then there would easily be edge cases that a retail unit can't handle; want to make a game that uses all 5GB of RAM, and debug problems that occur with the OS at full load? You can't, because the OS is then getting cranked down to fit the debugger in. Have a bug that nukes everything but the hypervisor? Sorry, most I/O drivers run outside of Ring 0, you're not getting anything worthwhile unless you have a dedicated debug port.

And now your stretching. We're talking indie games here. If you're making a game that big then you definitely will require a full debug unit.

 

[MrBud360]

XBMC app for Xbox One now!!!!!!!

 

[cyberheater]

XBMC app for Xbox One now!!!!!!!

Unless they allowed MKV support then I don't really see the point.

 

[Mandoric]

No it wouldn't. The debugging tools and telemetry data would still be run under the protection of the hypervisor. No extra permissions required.



And now your stretching. We're talking indie games here. If you're making a game that big then you definitely will require a full debug unit.

The debugging tools and telemetry would require full, user-managed, read-write access with hypervisor privileges. By definition you need extra access to the game and dashboard VMs, as well as the hypervisor itself in order to actually access any metrics stored in (hypervisor-space) RAM by the (hypervisor-space) debugger rather than immediately output.
By definition, this also allows play of ANY arbitrary software.

And, that's exactly the point: a devkit is a full debug unit. What's being mooted here is a test unit.
Indie or no is also a poor distinction; there's a huge middle ground of indie devs who might push an aspect of the machine hard (see Blow's PS4 title and its massive RAM allocation).
What MS is pitching is a great middle ground for allowing rapid prototyping of lightweight titles, but it's no replacement for a full kit; ideally we'll get (from both sides!) a two-pronged approach of easy test access like MS now promises and extremely inexpensive or loaner full kits like Sony is supplying.

 

[Audible Phonetics]

Interesting. I wonder if any details leaked with how MS will get a cut of any purchase downloads and how do they plan to categorize and organize the app store to prevent over saturation.

 

[excaliburps]

Yeah that was my list. The No self-publishing vs. self-publishing is crossed out on my list though now, and someone told me that Sony has their own Smartglass-esque solution that doesn't require Vita, so I have to look into that.

Wait, what? Where did you see this? Is this what famousmortimer was hinting at as Sony's "surprise" at gamescom?

So, with MS being "angry," does this mean this is their BIG announcement for Xbox One at gamescom? Hopefully, it's just one of many. I mean, I'm not sold on it yet, but I'd love to see them pump out more good news.

 

[gofreak]

Wait, what? Where did you see this? Is this what famousmortimer was hinting at as Sony's "surprise" at gamescom?

They announced in Feb there would be an app for iOS/Android/Vita that would offer the dev framework for smartglass-y second screen stuff for PS4.

 

[cyberheater]

The debugging tools and telemetry would require full, user-managed, read-write access with hypervisor privileges. By definition you need extra access to the game and dashboard VMs, as well as the hypervisor itself in order to actually access any metrics stored in (hypervisor-space) RAM by the (hypervisor-space) debugger rather than immediately output.
By definition, this also allows play of ANY arbitrary software.

And, that's exactly the point: a devkit is a full debug unit. What's being mooted here is a test unit.
Indie or no is also a poor distinction; there's a huge middle ground of indie devs who might push an aspect of the machine hard (see Blow's PS4 title and its massive RAM allocation).
What MS is pitching is a great middle ground for allowing rapid prototyping of lightweight titles, but it's no replacement for a full kit; ideally we'll get (from both sides!) a two-pronged approach of easy test access like MS now promises and extremely inexpensive or loaner full kits like Sony is supplying.

I can see what you're getting at but none of that precludes tools being provided by MS that has direct access to low level instrumentation and data from the hypervisor and provides a mechanism that allows the user to get to that information without MS handing over the keys to the hypervisor.

I agree that it's not going to be a full blown dev kit but I do believe that MS will provide enough tools to allow you to develop full blown indie games on the device. There would be no point otherwise.

 

[Mandoric]

I can see what you're getting at but none of that precludes tools being provided by MS that has direct access to low level instrumentation and data from the hypervisor and provides a mechanism that allows the user to get to that information without MS handing over the keys to the hypervisor.

I agree that it's not going to be a full blown dev kit but I do believe that MS will provide enough tools to allow you to develop full blown indie games on the device. There would be no point otherwise.

Proper debugging does involve handing over keys to Game OS and Dashboard OS, as well as at least portions of hypervisor unless added hardware is provided. Which is why it's normally hidden behind restricted distribution and a nominal fee equal to the cost of several games; hell, even full rather than restricted TEST access requires playing burns of retail games, so sans restrictions the box needs to be at least $1000 or so to keep people from just treating it as an up-front purchase of every game on the platform. ;P

It makes far more sense as one of three alternatives:
a) Limited to no debugging or other direct hardware access, intended as an aid for rapid prototyping. You get the opportunity to get your title started, and have something to show while you apply for a full kit/see how quick and easy it is to port your PC title.
b) Ability to run limited software under Game OS; possibly a service to sign your software (pending review in some cases) and authorize it to be run on your Xbone, which would make total sense under the old always-on paradigm.
c) Dashboard OS being yet another Windows 8 device, with all that entails.

 

[statham]

Developers And Fans React To Microsoft's Xbox Indie Reversal