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[nib95]

So as I stated earlier, this 180 is great for us gamers, but why are they limiting self publishing to titles that are up to 3GB only? Why not just allow the game to be as large as it needs to be similar to the PS4? I mean, Demos these days are sometimes nearly that large, so they should really give self publishing devs some more leeway here.

 

[jeffers]

So as I stated earlier, this 180 is great for us gamers, but why are they limiting self publishing to titles that are up to 3GB only? Why not just allow the game to be as large as it needs to be similar to the PS4? I mean, Demos these days are sometimes nearly that large, so they should really give self publishing devs some more leeway here.

3gb ram is the speculation, not hdd space.

 

[Takuya]

So as I stated earlier, this 180 is great for us gamers, but why are they limiting self publishing to titles that are up to 3GB only? Why not just allow the game to be as large as it needs to be similar to the PS4? I mean, Demos these days are sometimes nearly that large, so they should really give self publishing devs some more leeway here.

Microsoft works in weird, and mostly stupid ways so far for Xbone. They've practically destroyed or back-pedalled on any vision/plans they had, they're completely on reactionary mode right now. These policies aren't fleshed out at all right now, it's all just to get rid of the negative PR, but it isn't really working.

I liked EDGE's headline for their article:

Indies welcome Xbox One self-publishing, but remain cautious on discoverability - reaction from Vlambeer, NimbleBit, Rocketcat, Size Five Games and Lucky Frame

 

[Mandoric]

So as I stated earlier, this 180 is great for us gamers, but why are they limiting self publishing to titles that are up to 3GB only? Why not just allow the game to be as large as it needs to be similar to the PS4? I mean, Demos these days are sometimes nearly that large, so they should really give self publishing devs some more leeway here.

The 3GB is speculation based on option C that I listed; that's how much RAM the Dashboard OS has access to.

It's also not a very accurate picture of any size restriction. If Dashboard OS can use virtual memory, there's no reason why an indie title under this program can't swap out too; if it can't then large portions of that allocation are going to be eaten up by other apps.

 

[nib95]

3gb ram is the speculation, not hdd space.

I can't see that being the case. My guess is 3GB limitation for download size. Why on Earth would you limit ram use. It's not at all logical and would just limit the potential of the games visuals and optimisations. At least with the download size limitation Microsoft themselves save on server storage and resources.

Remember the 360 has/had download size limits too. Originally indie games couldn't be larger than 100mb in size. So it makes sense they'd do something similar with self pubs on the XO.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

My biggest compliant with MS is their approach with indie devs. Hopefully the XB1 will be a really open platform that allows devs to easily and cheaply publish and update games. I look forward to hearing details at gamescon.

 

[mentalfloss]

Microsoft may soon have a more indie-friendly console than Sony or Nintendo

 

[batman2million]

Microsoft works in weird, and mostly stupid ways so far for Xbone. They've practically destroyed or back-pedalled on any vision/plans they had, they're completely on reactionary mode right now. These policies aren't fleshed out at all right now, it's all just to get rid of the negative PR, but it isn't really working.

I liked EDGE's headline for their article:

Wasn't it Edge that had the PS4 on the cover stating it won the next-gen war? Any Xbox One article from them seems useless now.

This is good news. Still can't believe the backlash they're getting for this. Now people are insulting them for them back pedaling on their policies? Cut them some slack, they're just trying to fix the PR mess.

Damned if they do, damned if don't.

 

[jeffers]

I can't see that being the case. My guess is 3GB limitation for download size. Why on Earth would you limit ram use. It's not at all logical and would just limit the potential of the games visuals and optimisations. At least with the download size limitation Microsoft themselves save on server storage and resources.

Remember the 360 has/had download size limits too. Originally indie games couldn't be larger than 100mb in size. So it makes sense they'd do something similar with self pubs on the XO.

if you read the thread, the 3gb speculation of ram was to do with the OS split. if its run on the windows side, it could be limited to whats available to it. that is what the speculation/s is/are in the lines of.

 

[nib95]

if you read the thread, the 3gb speculation of ram was to do with the OS split. if its run on the windows side, it could be limited to whats available to it. that is what the speculation/s is/are in the lines of.

Don't see that being logical. That 3gb of ram is allocated specifically for OS features, nothing to do with games. I don't see how they'd suddenly divide that 3gb OS ram reservation for games too. It still has to have all the OS functions, instant start, Kinect etc, which means if it was limited to that reserve ram allotment, it'd actually be much less than 3gb of ram the indie dev had to work with. If true and devs are forced to use a portion of the 3GB OS ram reserve, that's much worse than the 3gb download size limitation, as PS4 indie Devs would have order of magnitude more ram to work with.

 

[Takuya]

Wasn't it Edge that had the PS4 on the cover stating it won the next-gen war? Any Xbox One article from them seems useless now.

That's a pretty poor reason to dismiss their articles.

This is good news. Still can't believe the backlash they're getting for this. Now people are insulting them for them back pedaling on their policies? Cut them some slack, they're just trying to fix the PR mess.

Damned if they do, damned if don't.

They damned themselves by trying to force consumers to adopt their stupid always-online DRM policies, and are still forcing consumers to buy into a peripheral that has proven nothing, and still hasn't.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

That's a pretty poor reason to dismiss their articles.

It's a great reason to dismiss their articles. I was planning on getting a sub for Edge until I saw that retarded cover informing me of the console I am going to buy.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

That's a pretty poor reason to dismiss their articles.


They damned themselves by trying to force consumers to adopt their stupid always-online DRM policies, and are still forcing consumers to buy into a peripheral that has proven nothing, and still hasn't.

All devices have proven nothing until they are released.

I think it's fine to be skeptical of MS exact policies, but you're trying way too hard in this thread.

Anyway, I look forward to learning more details.

 

[Harlock]

Will be full games or with limited hardware access like apps?

 

[nib95]

Microsoft may soon have a more indie-friendly console than Sony or Nintendo

Microsoft has a long way to match Sony on that front. You don't even need a dev kit to start making games for the PS4, Sony has been handing out FREE dev kits to many indie Devs, they've got rid of concept approval and they're providing dev kits to universities through their Academia programmes. Oh and no 3gb limitations for self publishing either. That's the difference between a pre existing vision and a band aid reversal. But at least now I'm more confident Microsoft will continue to improve things based on Sony's success.

Note to self. Don't go to Venture Beat for this sort of news...

 

[Hex]

Microsoft may soon have a more indie-friendly console than Sony or Nintendo

Wow.

 

[Takuya]

It's a great reason to dismiss their articles. I was planning on getting a sub for Edge until I saw that retarded cover informing me of the console I am going to buy.

Maybe you aren't going to buy it, but the majority of their reader population will. They expressed the general sentiment towards the upcoming platforms and made a strong case for it in their article. "Don't judge a book by its cover", as they say; unfortunately some people (like you) do.

All devices have proven nothing until they are released.

I think it's fine to be skeptical of MS exact policies, but you're trying way too hard in this thread.

Anyway, I look forward to learning more details.

Kinect is out, this new version adds a few other detection sensors but it's pretty much the same thing with a slight upgrade. It's a telling sign when they remove the core Kinect functionality from Ryse and Crimson Dragon ("AAA" titles) knowing it would doom them.

And if it hasn't proven itself, as you say "proven nothing", why should anyone have to be forced to pay for it if they want an Xbone? You're trying too hard.

 

[fade_]

Ouch at the Skulls of Shogun dev's response!

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

Is any of MS original XB1 plans still in place? Jesus. Sony really made them scrap everything.

 

[mckmas8808]

First TitanFall, then this. Dem leaks, lol poor MS

What happened with TitanFall?

 

[harSon]

Microsoft is damned if they do, damned if they don't at this point. They're seen as anti-developer/anti-indie if they try and take control of the the content within their online store by adding draconian hoops developers have to jump through to release games on their platform (and understandably so), and now that they've seemingly dropped those requirements, people are weary of discoverability (and shovelware bombardment) on the platform, despite the fact that the competition have suffered from the very same issue this generation. I understand ideals and principals, but those are non-factors at this point considering that ideals and principals have ultimately won out in the face of the changes that have been made over the last few months. It's their decision to voluntarily leave out a potentially sizable demographic that is willing to purchase their games, but I'd argue that it's an absolutely boneheaded one to make for an indie developer.

And from an indie developer standpoint, it's pretty idiotic to hold a grudge in the face of these sweeping changes. If the platform is good to develop for, regardless of past policies, then it's a good platform to develop for. As an indie developer, it makes absolutely ZERO sense to not release your game onto as many platforms as possible unless exclusivity was the only reason your game was funded/created, because that act would be the very definition of leaving money on the table. It's kind of ironic seeing developers complain about Microsoft's publishing requirement to release exclusively for their system if they publish the game, only to voluntarily forego releasing your game on that company's platform.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Maybe you aren't going to buy it, but the majority of their reader population will. They expressed the general sentiment towards the upcoming platforms and made a strong case for it in their article. "Don't judge a book by its cover", as they say; unfortunately some people (like you) do.

It's a dumb cover that plays as an advertisement for Sony. Very easy to judge it in that way.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Developers And Fans React To Microsoft's Xbox Indie Reversal

I LOLd at "demattrickation". Funny cuz its true.

 

[cyberheater]

Proper debugging does involve handing over keys to Game OS and Dashboard OS, as well as at least portions of hypervisor unless added hardware is provided. Which is why it's normally hidden behind restricted distribution and a nominal fee equal to the cost of several games; hell, even full rather than restricted TEST access requires playing burns of retail games, so sans restrictions the box needs to be at least $1000 or so to keep people from just treating it as an up-front purchase of every game on the platform. ;P

It makes far more sense as one of three alternatives:
a) Limited to no debugging or other direct hardware access, intended as an aid for rapid prototyping. You get the opportunity to get your title started, and have something to show while you apply for a full kit/see how quick and easy it is to port your PC title.
b) Ability to run limited software under Game OS; possibly a service to sign your software (pending review in some cases) and authorize it to be run on your Xbone, which would make total sense under the old always-on paradigm.
c) Dashboard OS being yet another Windows 8 device, with all that entails.

I haven't got enough information to respond to this but I do think that MS do intend a more full blown development environment powered by a consumer Xbox One unit. They have said as much and they obviously think this is big enough that the leak was a big deal for them.

I guess we will find out more at the official reveal.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

What happened with TitanFall?

GI leaked Titanfall before E3. They're on a roll now.

 

[Lord Phol]

This gen seems to be full of reaction-based decisions from all fronts, lots of last minute changes so far. The stakes are high and both MS and Sony are doing everything to come out on top.

 

[Delusibeta]

Honestly? Whitten is almost certainly lying: there is no way for a retail Xbone to serve as a dev kit for "proper" Xbone games without major security concerns. It's going to be XBLIG2, mark my words.

Didn't Microsoft announce some sort of deal with Unity at Build?

WinRT support and free Unity Pro licences if you sign a publishing deal with Microsoft.

 

[Wynnebeck]

It's a dumb cover that plays as an advertisement for Sony. Very easy to judge it in that way.

Your argument would have merit if Edge had a history of having covers that did nothing but support Sony and the Playstation. However, since there have been numerous covers supporting MS and the Xbox, it's makes your reasoning sound pretty silly.

 

[cyberheater]

Will be full games or with limited hardware access like apps?

Full blown games.

From the GB article.

GB: But this isn’t a situation where, if you just pick up an Xbox One at Target, you’re only going to be able to access certain parts of the memory, certain parts of the graphics processor? This is going to allow you, at least eventually, once it’s all put into place, to be able to do everything that someone like Respawn is doing?

Whitten: That’s right.

 

[RoboPlato]

Full blown games.

From the GB article.

It's actually impossible for that to be true without the added hardware and tools that a full devkit comes with. I'm not saying that only a tiny fraction of the console will be available but it won't be everything.

 

[cyberheater]

Honestly? Whitten is almost certainly lying: there is no way for a retail Xbone to serve as a dev kit for "proper" Xbone games without major security concerns. It's going to be XBLIG2, mark my words.

Fuck off with that bollocks.

 

[cyberheater]

It's actually impossible for that to be true without the added hardware and tools that a full devkit comes with. I'm not saying that only a tiny fraction of the console will be available but it won't be everything.

Once again. From the article:-

GB: Post-Xbox One launch and when this system is available, is there a reason for people to have proper Xbox One development kits? Is there a significant difference between what the developers get access to in terms of building their games?

Whitten: Our goal is for you to be able to have full access of the system and the services on Xbox Live. Also, this is a dev kit. This is the way that we will think about dev kits for people on my team that are working on Xbox One. There’s no “this is a second class sort of experience” type of thing. Right now, obviously, in the build-up to a platform launch, there’s lots of special builds and lots of special kits and all that kind of stuff, but that’s more time and place.

 

[KageMaru]

They can self-publish the same way they could on the 360, in the indie ghetto with the massage apps.

This is honestly all I want. I think true self publishing is great for the bigger indie teams out there, and I hope MS provides this option for them, but for people like me, all I wanted with the PS4 or Xbone is XBLIGv2.

Maybe you aren't going to buy it, but the majority of their reader population will. They expressed the general sentiment towards the upcoming platforms and made a strong case for it in their article. "Don't judge a book by its cover", as they say; unfortunately some people (like you) do.

Kinect is out, this new version adds a few other detection sensors but it's pretty much the same thing with a slight upgrade. It's a telling sign when they remove the core Kinect functionality from Ryse and Crimson Dragon ("AAA" titles) knowing it would doom them.

And if it hasn't proven itself, as you say "proven nothing", why should anyone have to be forced to pay for it if they want an Xbone? You're trying too hard.

Why do you ever bother with MS threads? You're not interested in the system, all you do is passively troll anything they do, and in the end shit up threads.

SMH...

Edit:

Once again. From the article:-

I agree with the others that these retail units will never be "dev kits" in the same way real dev kits are to professional developers. If it's like XBLIG with access to most of the hardware, that's good enough for me.

You'll write the code on your PC and test it on your Xbone, much like XBLIG on the 360. So describing it as a test unit is pretty accurate.

 

[RoboPlato]

Once again. From the article:-

Interesting but from everything I understand about the development process on consoles I don't see how it would work like that. If someone could explain I'd appreciate it.

 

[cyberheater]

Interesting but from everything I understand about the development process on consoles I don't see how it would work like that. If someone could explain I'd appreciate it.

We don't know the detail yet. Article here:-

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-self-publishing-on-xbox-one/1100-4696/

 

[Kenshin001]

Borut Pfeifer ‏@plushapo 17h
Has Microsoft announced a new indie friendly "we won't breach your contract policy"? No. kthxbai


craig ‏@see5harp 16h
@plushapo Why you so sour your shit didn't sell shit?

What's that about?

 

[RoboPlato]

We don't know the detail yet. Article here:-

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-self-publishing-on-xbox-one/1100-4696/

I'll keep an eye out for details. I'm very curious about how that'll work.

 

[Delusibeta]

Interesting but from everything I understand about the development process on consoles I don't see how it would work like that. If someone could explain I'd appreciate it.

Certainly, I'd love to hear how they intend to fit in the game + the debuggers into a retail device at the same time while letting the game have full access to hardware, all while preventing hackers getting access, jailbreaking the console and enabling piracy. I'll be realistic, however, and assume Whitten is lying.

 

[jeffers]

im siding with cboat on the issue for now ( http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=72482816&postcount=159 ). though if it was limited to 3gb, in some dev mode you could then use the rest of the ram + processing power for dev tooling

 

[bronzeP]

Whitten: Our goal is for you to be able to have full access of the system and the services on Xbox Live. Also, this is a dev kit. This is the way that we will think about dev kits for people on my team that are working on Xbox One. There’s no “this is a second class sort of experience” type of thing.

So people just have to buy the Console instead of a expensive devkit?

 

[Takuya]

It's a dumb cover that plays as an advertisement for Sony. Very easy to judge it in that way.

And every magazine that has any other console on its cover isn't directly advertising those either? Give me a break.

 

[cyberheater]

Certainly, I'd love to hear how they intend to fit in the game + the debuggers into a retail device at the same time while letting the game have full access to hardware, all while preventing hackers getting access, jailbreaking the console and enabling piracy. I'll be realistic, however, and assume Whitten is lying.

So once again you're outright saying that Marc Whitten, the VP of Xbox corporate is lying in the article. With no evidence to back up your assertion. SMH.

 

[statham]

Microsoft talks making life easier for developers on Xbox One

 

[Hoo-doo]

So people just have to buy the Console instead of a expensive devkit?

If you want to make an indie game with limited hardware access and want to launch it through the W8 store, then yeah.

At least, that's what I get out of all this. Which is pretty great news for 1/2 man teams looking to get creative.

So once again you're outright saying that Marc Whitten, the VP of Xbox corporate is lying in the article. With no evidence to back up your assertion. SMH.

Lying? The man's explanation can be interpreted a dozen different ways.
Don't put words in people's mouths.

SMH indeed.

 

[chubigans]

Microsoft talks making life easier for developers on Xbox One

This shines some light on the "build W8 games if you want to make XB1 games" statement MS made at BUILD:

Gibson also shed a bit of light on how development differs when coding for Xbox One's Windows-derived OS, which is designed to run in parallel with the gaming partition, allowing instant switching between games and apps.

"The applications are very similar to Windows 8, like we brought a lot of the Windows 8 namespace - WinRT can be used for building those applications, the time it takes to port a Windows 8 application to the new Xbox?" he said. "It's super, super easy. There's some things we added to the platform for handling gestures, for handling voice and handling ten foot UI paradigms."

 

[cyberheater]

Lying? The man's explanation can be interpreted a dozen different ways.
Don't put words in people's mouths.

SMH indeed.

It's not about interpretation or putting words into peoples mouths.

Delusibeta said:-

I'll be realistic, however, and assume Whitten is lying

or are you having issues reading today?

 

[Hoo-doo]

It's not about interpretation of or putting words into peoples mouths.

Delusibeta said:-


or are you having issues reading today?

Missed that one, apologies. But still, Whitten lying still isn't that crazy seeing as Microsoft has been blatantly lying it's ass off for the last 2 months. Saying one thing and then doing another.

 

[soul creator]

If you want to make an indie game with limited hardware access and want to launch it through the W8 store, then yeah.

At least, that's what I get out of all this. Which is pretty great news for 1/2 man teams looking to get creative.



Lying? The man's explanation can be interpreted a dozen different ways.
Don't put words in people's mouths.

SMH indeed.

He literally said someone could buy an Xbox from Target and do what Respawn is doing. Obviously remains to be seen how it works in practice (and I understand skepticism), but that does very directly imply that it's intended to be a "real" devkit.

It's not completely unheard of. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can go to Best Buy, get a Macbook and an iOS device, and have the same "devkit" that EA uses.

 

[Aasir Osu]

Out of curiosity, is PSN currently considered a better environment for discoverability? I know that when I'm on it, I often find it to be an inconsistent experience, with some games having screenshots, demos, videos or combination thereof, and some don't. From the OS screenshots I've seen of PS4, I can't make any judgments on how the experience would be better - unless all games would have to adhere to certain promotional mandates. That would be a start, I guess. I also imagine that both next gen systems will have user ratings of some sort as well. Which also goes in line with "Trending" talk that MS has made about that being one method of discovering content on the store. Or, I may be confusing that last point with the W8 store.

One other question; like the poster above, I'm confused by this 3gb speculation. I thought the 3 OS's reserved 3gigs, and games ran in the left over 5gigs. Can anyone point to any links where MS talks about this OS allocation? I didn't know that Apps would only run in the OS portion of the system - I just assumed that 3gigs total was reserved for the OS and future OS use. I had know idea that applications would also run in the 3 gig portion as well.

 

[Kysen]

Are people really buying into the idea that a retail Xbone is the same hardware wise as a dev kit? This is nothing more than the same setup that PSMobile uses. Super restricted playpen that runs on retail devices. Not even close to the real thing.