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[cyberheater]

Missed that one, apologies. But still, Whitten lying still isn't that crazy seeing as Microsoft has been blatantly lying it's ass off for the last 2 months. Saying one thing and then doing another.

Well given what a huge deal MS was going to make of this at Gamescon. I have to believe what he's saying is the truth.

 

[cyberheater]

Are people really buying into the idea that a retail Xbone is the same hardware wise as a dev kit? This is nothing more than the same setup that PSMobile uses. Super restricted playpen that runs on retail devices. Not even close to the real thing.

Do people not bother reading posts and articles around here and just spew the first thing that enters their head?

 

[LukasTaves]

The problem is that the new editor, Unity, requires a 40.000$ fee in order to release games on xbox 360 and will be same for xbox one i assume

Which means only a 1% of indies can afford it, even if they dont have to pay for a dev kit

While XNA releases came for free, you only had to pay 99$, not 40.000$ and xbox 360 acted as a dev kit as well

Unity 4.2 has free deployment to windows 8 store, if xbone really allows developers to publish indie games through the store, being able to do it with the free version of unity wouldn't be bad at all.

 

[Delusibeta]

Considering Microsoft reps has been lying their ass off with regards to family sharing of time limited demos, amongst other things, I have no trouble in thinking they aren't telling the full story here.

Unity 4.2 has free deployment to windows 8 store, if xbone really allows developers to publish indie games through the store, being able to do it with the free version of unity wouldn't be bad at all.

That requires the paid version, Unity Pro, as I understand it. Still beats the $silly that Unity charges to let you release a game on PS360, but still.

 

[Hex]

So once again you're outright saying that Marc Whitten, the VP of Xbox corporate is lying in the article. With no evidence to back up your assertion. SMH.

Because we have no evidence in the past six months of Microsoft directly lying to us. None at all.
But all and all people should really just wait and see, on BOTH sides of this.
The ones praising this like it is something magical and going to be the golden honey pot and the ones seeing a trap filled mine field.
Let the cards fall before the fun begins on whatever side it comes.

 

[Mandoric]

He literally said someone could buy an Xbox from Target and do what Respawn is doing. Obviously remains to be seen how it works in practice (and I understand skepticism), but that does very directly imply that it's intended to be a "real" devkit.

It's not completely unheard of. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can go to Best Buy, get a Macbook and an iOS device, and have the same "devkit" that EA uses.

iOS apps don't run to the metal (so debugging is simpler) and you're required to use a subscription service to sign your apps for on-device testing (possible here, but not the same experience "real devs" have.)

 

[LukasTaves]

Interesting but from everything I understand about the development process on consoles I don't see how it would work like that. If someone could explain I'd appreciate it.

Certainly, I'd love to hear how they intend to fit in the game + the debuggers into a retail device at the same time while letting the game have full access to hardware, all while preventing hackers getting access, jailbreaking the console and enabling piracy. I'll be realistic, however, and assume Whitten is lying.

Be it the game OS or the application OS that you develop for, the resources are virtualized. In development mode Ms can simply allow the partition to expand it's memory size and cpu/gpu usage to accommodate for debugging. It also guarantee security because even if the machine is running unsigned code, that would be run under a virtual OS and not the actual system, that as far as we know remains untouchable.

Everything being virtualized is also how Ms can indeed allow retail to be same hardware wise than the devkits they send for devs.

 

[cyberheater]

Because we have no evidence in the past six months of Microsoft directly lying to us. None at all.

Changing policy is not the same as lying.

But all and all people should really just wait and see, on BOTH sides of this.
The ones praising this like it is something magical and going to be the golden honey pot and the ones seeing a trap filled mine field.
Let the cards fall before the fun begins on whatever side it comes.

Honestly. I think it could be great. And hopefully usher in a new generation of bedroom coders unless MS fuck it up (which is entirely possible).

 

[LukasTaves]

Considering Microsoft reps has been lying their ass off with regards to family sharing of time limited demos, amongst other things, I have no trouble in thinking they aren't telling the full story here.



That requires the paid version, Unity Pro, as I understand it. Still beats the $silly that Unity charges to let you release a game on PS360, but still.

For windows 8 store that's completely free, at least that is what this page is telling me:

We’re thrilled to be able to tell you that by updating Unity, users of the free version of our software gain access to three new and completely free deployment options: Windows Store Apps (covering Windows 8 and Windows RT), Windows Phone 8 and Blackberry 10. What’s more, we’ve also made deployment to Windows 8, Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 available absolutely free of charge to all our Unity Pro users.

http://unity3d.com/unity/whats-new/

 

[chubigans]

Honestly. I think it could be great. And hopefully usher in a new generation of bedroom coders

See, I don't agree. There are so many different avenues to game making that the idea of an open platform like this is not as huge as it once was. Not to mention that it'll still be an expensive option for entry indies (as opposed to ios, PC, XBLIG, Android, etc.)

 

[cyberheater]

See, I don't agree. There are so many different avenues to game making that the idea of an open platform like this is not as huge as it once was. Not to mention that it'll still be an expensive option for entry indies (as opposed to ios, PC, XBLIG, Android, etc.)

If an Xbox One can be used a devkit to produce full blown games as stated in the GI article. You've got the expense of paying $499 for the retail unit and any cost of dev admission from MS and your time and effort. Hardly an expensive option.

 

[soul creator]

iOS apps don't run to the metal (so debugging is simpler) and you're required to use a subscription service to sign your apps for on-device testing (possible here, but not the same experience "real devs" have.)

if all this VM HyperVisor doobedy doo stuff is to be believed, Xbox One games don't run "to the metal" either (at least, not in the same way as older consoles), hence the reason for the Game OS.

That said, I'm getting out of my league here, so I'm probably not gonna speculate too much more, lol

 

[Delusibeta]

For windows 8 store that's completely free, at least that is what this page is telling me:



http://unity3d.com/unity/whats-new/

Huh, my bad then. I was under the impression that Microsoft was bundling that with Unity Pro (and sticking a "now with $1,500 worth of software included for free!" slapped on). Evidently not.

 

[trmas]

This thread has been great comedy... just wait until the attached strings are revealed.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

If an Xbox One can be used a devkit to produce full blown games as stated in the GI article. You've got the expense of paying $499 for the retail unit and any cost of dev admission from MS and your time and effort. Hardly an expensive option.

But there was no explanation. It was a confusing statement that probably the creators of Titanfall don't even agree with. Also we have no idea how it works. He literally says "That's right" which is basically saying "We don't know yet but I'll keep your interest peaked" and from the start of this PR games coming from MS "That's right" always turned into "We changed this because blah blah blah". They never have the story 100% straight so I hardly believe a $500 machine gives you access to full hardware. And if it does, I can already see a PSN other os situation happening.

 

[Gestault]

Because he said he is going to leak less stuff after E3 and trying to keep a low profile for a while, because he was pretty active the last few months (more than usual) and probably was at risk getting caught. Since the rumour was already out there, he could respond without problems.

Famous is also backing him that he heard something similar and Famous is very reliable. So even if it turns out to be false, it was probably true at some point (up to BUILD I think). He also doesn't just run with things already speculated/rumoured. Please explain the Remember Me GIF, the GTA SA list of voice actors and some of his other stuff. Has has legit info, but obviously can't know everything.

So he broke a self-imposed silence on an important topic to leak incorrect information?

 

[Barzul]

But there was no explanation. It was a confusing statement that probably the creators of Titanfall don't even agree with. Also owe have no idea how it works. He literally says "That's right" which is basically saying "We don't know yet but I'll keep your interest peaked" and from the start of this PR games coming from MS "That's right" always turned into "We changed this because blah blah blah". They never have the story 100% straight so I hardly believe a $500 machine gives you access to full hardware. And if it does, I can already see a PSN other os situation happening.

Just because you find it hard to believe does not make it impossible. I just don't see why Microsoft would be making a huge deal out of this to garner all that positive press, if the weren't confident that what they're announcing would be a game changer in regards to game development. The potential backlash alone especially given what they've had to endure so far, would make lying an incredibly dumb decision.

 

[trmas]

If an Xbox One can be used a devkit to produce full blown games as stated in the GI article. You've got the expense of paying $499 for the retail unit and any cost of dev admission from MS and your time and effort. Hardly an expensive option.

Are people really dumb enough to believe this? I'm just wondering...

 

[evilchicken]

To me it seems they are realizing that desktop PCs are on a rapid decline market share-wise (this isn't a jab at PC gaming, follow MS or Apple stock news to see what i'm talking about). So they are building a mobile platform filled with a range of devices. I don't mean mobile in the literal sense, I mean you have several options available for running things bought in the Microsoft ecosystem. That includes tablets, XBO, PCs, Phones. The Apple and Android ecosystems allow for any users develop, and Microsoft is full aware they need to be on that boat in every front as well. I'm basically saying that XBO is trying to become another W8 appstore outlet, that includes apps and games.

 

[cyberheater]

Are people really dumb enough to believe this? I'm just wondering...

What a moronic reply. Try actually adding to the debate.

 

[3rdamention]

So he broke a self-imposed silence on an important topic to leak incorrect information?

Did you even read the post your responding to at all? He said famousmortimer even backed up cboat. Famous said he even heard yesterday that the word amongst industry insiders was the self publishing was just like what cboat was saying. He said either policies changed or Microsoft isn't giving the full details yet.


You really do have it out for cboat don't you? Why are you so obsessed with trying to prove him wrong? You seem all caught up on that in this thread.

 

[chubigans]

What a moronic reply. Try actually adding to the debate.

Thing is, if they're serious in making a retail XB1 as close to an actual devkit as possible, it'll be an unprecedented level of access to any console ever. If it's not "sandboxed" or anything, and just a full on access to all hardware, then that is friggin nuts from a security standpoint.

That's why I have my doubts.

 

[evilchicken]

Thing is, if they're serious in making a retail XB1 as close to an actual devkit as possible, it'll be an unprecedented level of access to any console ever. If it's not "sandboxed" or anything, and just a full on access to all hardware, then that is friggin nuts from a security standpoint.

That's why I have my doubts.

I doubt the level of access is less secure than microsoft's XNA program. Just because you can use the APIs of the hardware that doesn't mean you have full access to everything each component can do.

 

[LukasTaves]

Huh, my bad then. I was under the impression that Microsoft was bundling that with Unity Pro (and sticking a "now with $1,500 worth of software included for free!" slapped on). Evidently not.

That might be true if you get picked by Ms studios to publish on the xbone... This is strictly for windows 8 store apps apparently.

 

[cyberheater]

Thing is, if they're serious in making a retail XB1 as close to an actual devkit as possible, it'll be an unprecedented level of access to any console ever. If it's not "sandboxed" or anything, and just a full on access to all hardware, then that is friggin nuts from a security standpoint.

That's why I have my doubts.

Which I understand. I'm just going by the direct quotes said by a Xbox VP once the leak about this came out. We have 3 options here:-

1. He's outright lying - Which I really doubt.
2. He's wrong about some very important details - Again, I doubt he would make such an error. This was going to be a huge thing for MS and I would have thought he would have been thoroughly briefed for the interview.
3. He's right. In which case. Things are going to get very interesting for indie devs and bedroom coders.

I hope it's option 3.

 

[Gestault]

You really do have it out for cboat don't you? Why are you so obsessed with trying to prove him wrong? You seem all caught up on that in this thread.

I've posted three times, and I was asking why CBOAT, who made a point to say he was keeping a low profile, wouldn't have leaked the original information about the policy change, but did make the point to clarify the leak. I don't think that's unreasonable. The information we've been given directly, most notably in the Giant Bomb interview, suggests that what CBOAT did reveal was both old information, and incorrect.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Just because you find it hard to believe does not make it impossible. I just don't see why Microsoft would be making a huge deal out of this to garner all that positive press, if the weren't confident that what they're announcing would be a game changer in regards to game development. The potential backlash alone especially given what they've had to endure so far, would make lying an incredibly dumb decision.

Have we been in the same world or what but everything MS has said was first saying it was impossible to possible. To me, that sounds like they don't have it together and are just saying things as they go along free winging it. They are trying to dig themselves out a hole but being very vague on how things work. So essentially If every X1 unit could be a 'true' dev kit.. How many people will be able to access it? Your telling me that I can just buy one, go straight to debug mode and start making games? Nah, there's more to it.

 

[Chobel]

I've posted three times, and I was asking why CBOAT, who made a point to say he was keeping a low profile, wouldn't have leaked the original information about the policy change, but did make the point to clarify the leak. I don't think that's unreasonable. The information we've been given directly, most notably in the Giant Bomb interview, suggests that what CBOAT did reveal was both old information, and incorrect.

No, no, no! CBOAT leak was before GI article... So CBOAT didn't leak to clarify the article.

 

[Barzul]

Have we been in the same world or what but everything MS has said was first saying it was impossible to possible. To me, that sounds like they don't have it together and are just saying things as they go along free winging it. They are trying to dig themselves out a hole but being very vague on how things work. So essentially If every X1 unit could be a 'true' dev kit.. How many people will be able to access it? Your telling me that I can just buy one, go straight to debug mode and start making games? Nah, there's more to it.

Of course there's more to it, that's why they've said wait till Gamescom for specifics.

 

[FStop7]

Props to GI for actual reporting.

Yeah, funny to see MS get mad and stomp its feet because someone in games journalism did some real journalism.

I'm surprised that Klepek knew about it and didn't report it.

 

[scently]

Interesting but from everything I understand about the development process on consoles I don't see how it would work like that. If someone could explain I'd appreciate it.

This is rather easy to understand. According to an ex MS employee on B3D, he was saying that the beta and final kit will probably have just 8gb ram. This is because, as games only have access to 5gb, the dev/debug tools will be installed into the 3gb.

Do bear in mind that the 360 devkit only had 512mb ram for a long time before the introduction of the 1gb model, and full blown AAA games where made with those kit.

So this can work.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Of course there's more to it, that's why they've said wait till Gamescom for specifics.

Exactly but people are here making it out to be that the Xbox will magically offer something better than competitors even claiming that indie devs can take full 100% control over the Xbox one retail units is fact because of what Witten said. No he didn't say yes, or anything of that sort. He just made a vague answer about it. So as far as I'm concerned, it's all just a plan to set forward a different agenda. I'm just waiting for the real confirmation.

 

[Nokterian]

This was a 'suprise' for gamescom? What a joke they should have said it in may but no,what a pr disaster these couple of months,just a complete joke..and reading on something there are still strings attacted. It is microsoft,there are always things attacted and nothing will change that.

 

[soul creator]

Exactly but people are here making it out to be that the Xbox will magically offer something better than competitors even claiming that indie devs can take full 100% control over the Xbox one retail units is fact because of what Witten said. No he didn't say yes, or anything of that sort. He just made a vague answer about it. So as far as I'm concerned, it's all just a plan to set forward a different agenda. I'm just waiting for the real confirmation.

well as with anything, there's nothing 100% "fact" until it's released, but it's not like it's some completely impossible goal. It doesn't take magic or anything, just specific planning and architecture.

So I understand skepticism, but I don't think it's some crazy unpossible thing for them to work on. I have an "Apple Development Kit" right now that allows me to reach millions of people, aka, a Macbook and an iPhone, lol. I also have a "PC Devkit", called my PC.

 

[Ghost]

I think the fact this isn't happening this year should tell you all that nothing about the program is written in stone yet. Including what devs have access too.

I don't think there's any reason they couldn't give you access to either partition depending on what you're developing. To be honest I'm not sure how it works any other way because the rules about what the App environment can do seem to be very different to the Game environment in terms of multi-tasking and switching.

 

[FranXico]

He literally said someone could buy an Xbox from Target and do what Respawn is doing. Obviously remains to be seen how it works in practice (and I understand skepticism), but that does very directly imply that it's intended to be a "real" devkit.

It's not completely unheard of. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can go to Best Buy, get a Macbook and an iOS device, and have the same "devkit" that EA uses.

I'm pretty sure that Respawn are not developing Ryse on a stock consumer XBox One.

Although, to be honest, that might explain a thing or two.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it.

 

[Barzul]

Exactly but people are here making it out to be that the Xbox will magically offer something better than competitors even claiming that indie devs can take full 100% control over the Xbox one retail units is fact because of what Witten said. No he didn't say yes, or anything of that sort. He just made a vague answer about it. So as far as I'm concerned, it's all just a plan to set forward a different agenda. I'm just waiting for the real confirmation.

I honestly don't think his answer was vague. He was asked in the GB interview if someone could do what someone like Respawn is doing (with Titanfall I assume) on a retail Xbox One unit and his response was "That's right". To me it doesn't get much clearer than that. I still think there's a lot we don't know especially in regards to how they'll be handling the Windows store on the Xbox. So hopefully everything will be cleared up at Gamescom. I do understand your skepticism though, Microsoft has screwed up a lot since the X1 reveal. Maybe this is them fixing it.

 

[nasos_333]

I'm pretty sure that Respawn are not developing Ryse on a stock consumer XBox One.

Although, to be honest, that might explain a thing or two.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it.

Besides the extra tools, the hardware should be about same, especially since these are already 8GB ram systems, so you can have the tools in part of the ram easilly

It was not the same with xbox 360, where the tools could take up a lot of ram comparing to the 512MB and the extra 512MB would be really needed to take full advantage of the small ram

Now unless the game can actually fully use 8GB, this is not such a big issue

 

[la flama blanca]

Thing is, if they're serious in making a retail XB1 as close to an actual devkit as possible, it'll be an unprecedented level of access to any console ever. If it's not "sandboxed" or anything, and just a full on access to all hardware, then that is friggin nuts from a security standpoint.

That's why I have my doubts.

It won't be, everything Microsoft says has a giant fucking asterisk next to it.

 

[Barzul]

I'm pretty sure that Respawn are not developing Ryse on a stock consumer XBox One.

Although, to be honest, that might explain a thing or two.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it.

Respawn is developing Titanfall, Ryse is Crytek.

 

[Kalm]

I'm pretty sure that Respawn are not developing Ryse on a stock consumer XBox One.

Although, to be honest, that might explain a thing or two.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it.

I'm 100% sure of that.

Respawn is definitely not developing Ryse.

 

[Takuya]

Besides the extra tools, the hardware should be about same, especially since these are already 8GB ram systems, so you can have the tools in part of the ram easilly

It was not the same with xbox 360, where the tools could take up a lot of ram comparing to the 512MB and the extra 512MB would be really needed to take full advantage of the small ram

Now unless the game can actually fully use 8GB, this is not such a big issue

The real devkits have 12GB.

 

[soul creator]

I'm pretty sure that Respawn are not developing Ryse on a stock consumer XBox One.

Although, to be honest, that might explain a thing or two.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it.

Well yes, currently they aren't (since it's launch, and things are always in flux at launch) but there's nothing preventing that from happening in the future. Maybe big developers will get more 1 on 1 support calls, MS reps flying out in person to help them, and things like that, but that's not a hardware issue. Infinity Blade and Words with Friends both use the same "devkits". Crysis and facebook games both use the same "devkits". It all just depends on whether or not the Xbox One was designed with this in mind from the beginning. According to Mark Whitten, it has been, but we obviously won't know for sure (so skepticism is still valid) until it's out in the wild.

Spoiler

Respawn is doing Titanfall, not Ryse, lol

 

[nasos_333]

The real devkits have 12GB.

TBH i cant see why they would need so much extra RAM, unless all the tools (like Unity3D) can run directly on the system, without interfacing with a PC

In fact i find hard to believe most games will actually use 8GB ram for assets, since would need a super optimized engine to run such a game, even with the "next gen" xbox one GPU

 

[tokyostomp]

So MS is doing this to sell a buttload of units

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Microsoft talks making life easier for developers on Xbox One

TONS of great info in that article talking about developing on Xbox One.

Partnernet is apparently gone, and all testing is done in production, and sandboxed so non-authorized users can't access it using multiple methods (IP, accounts, probably console ID's, etc).

Also, he says the only difference from the debug units and retail kits will be special security certificates installed on the device. The hardware is exactly the same between the two though.

There are debug Xboxes, absolutely, but it's the exact same hardware as a regular Xbox, it's just which keys and which certificates are on it, allowing it to see which version of the [Application Programming Interface] is in production.

Can't wait to give developing on this a shot!

 

[Syphon Filter]

So MS is doing this to sell a buttload of units

Doubt it, its nothing big.

 

[Takuya]

TBH i cant see why they would need so much extra RAM, unless all the tools (like Unity3D) can run directly on the system, without interfacing with a PC

In fact i find hard to believe most games will actually use 8GB ram for assets, since would need a super optimized engine to run such a game, even with the "next gen" xbox one GPU

You can't even use 8GB RAM for assets, there's 3GB reserved for the OS.

 

[nib95]

TBH i cant see why they would need so much extra RAM

In fact i find hard to believe most games will actually use 8GB ram for assets, since would need a super optimized engine to run such a game, even with the "next gen" xbox one GPU

Most games will use the absolute maximum amount of ram available for that game, and to do that well, you need the extra ram (not available to the retail unit) for debugging, libraries and tools to properly optimise for maximum efficiency and potential. This has been the case since forever. With respect to smaller download titles, If Microsoft limit the amount of ram available to self published indie games on the XO, we'll just get better looking and running indie games on PS4 too, dependant on how much time and budget the devs have. But at the least it eases up their development process and allows them much more room to manoeuvre with respect to optimisations and time frames. It'd probably make it more difficult to port PS4 indie games over to the XO as well.

 

[x3sphere]

Thing is, if they're serious in making a retail XB1 as close to an actual devkit as possible, it'll be an unprecedented level of access to any console ever. If it's not "sandboxed" or anything, and just a full on access to all hardware, then that is friggin nuts from a security standpoint.

That's why I have my doubts.

I don't think it's crazy from a security standpoint even if they give full access - for one, any code written will likely only work on unlocked units as it'll be signed with the devkit key. Which means MS will still have to sign the code for it to work on any retail units.

Additionally, anyone truly interested in the hacking the system will be able to get their hands on an actual devkit easily. I knew plenty in the PS3 scene that had kits. I also know some with Vita kits. Still, any code is restricted to running with user permissions so it doesn't magically let you get at firmware bits unless you've got some kind privilege escalation exploit.