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My brother is a massive racist, and I feel broken
- Thread starter Geist-
- Start date
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The contradiction of this text is mind blowing.
There's no contradiction there, he clearly states he doesn't care about racism that doesn't affect him personally. His aunts stopped being racist to his face so now he doesn't care.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
DontBeThatGuy
Member
What does them not hurting him or loved ones personally have to do with anything? What kind of selfish shit is that? Racist beliefs and philosophies do in fact hurt a great many people in potentially different ways (especially with so fucking many of them out there), which should matter if you hold even a smidgen of empathy and integrity. It's not a simple disagreement of politics, this shit isn't a game, it's deeper than that, obviously.
This is the OP's brother: "Like, not just believing stupid politics shit, he literally believes Muslims are all murderers and rapists and they deserve to die kind of racist". I mean, what?
This 'Out of mind, out of sight' in instances like this is straight garbage. He's on some genocide shit, and you're preaching "just don't talk to the poor sap about politics, there's always Marvel vs DC Comics, all kinds of different stuff!". It's kinda pathetic.
If you're not physically stuck with him for whatever reason, you can do so much better, OP, that's the real answer.
theignoramus
Member
Yeah, if some auntie of mine was talking shit about my wife and babies behind my back, best believe they would be cut the fuck off from seeing us for a loooooong time. I dont play that shit.
True american right there. The fuckiest fuck you got fucking mine i've read in a while.
Playmaster
Banned
So is making sweeping generalizations about religious people ok on GAF or not?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Who are you talking about?
Try it and find out
SaviourMK2
Member
It'll surely be dufficult and I never wish for anyone to be put in this position. But you might want to cut him out of your life.
People like him generally won't see the error of their ways until they start losing people they care about.
You need to consider your stress levels and exposure to toxicity. Too much of it might one day blow you off your ticket then your relationship becomes undesirable.
Don't cold turkey him, just be honest "I can't do this anymore, I'm sorry but we can't keep this up if you're going to make me uncomfortable".
People like him generally won't see the error of their ways until they start losing people they care about.
You need to consider your stress levels and exposure to toxicity. Too much of it might one day blow you off your ticket then your relationship becomes undesirable.
Don't cold turkey him, just be honest "I can't do this anymore, I'm sorry but we can't keep this up if you're going to make me uncomfortable".
Playmaster
Banned
Christians, Muslims etc? Eh nvm I'll just give the forums rules a read over
Eh I'm a junior don't wanna risk my account. You try
Playmaster
Banned
accidental double post
Aaronology
Member
I feel like you just tried to throw a "ok but what about Christians" wrench into this discussion on the sly. I could totally be off base, tho.The forums? Eh nvm I'll just give the forums rules a read over
Eh I'm a junior don't wanna risk my account. You try
Edit: And look at that edit! Guess my spidey sense tingled true.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
The forums? Eh nvm I'll just give the forums rules a read over
Eh I'm a junior don't wanna risk my account. You try
I thought you were referring to a post in this thread :s I read the thread and didn't see anyone generalizing anything about religion.
Zelenogorsk
Banned
This is your brain on libertarianism.
Ascenion
Member
That's a tough spot OP. I know personally I've lost a brother (he passed away) and I've only got one left so cutting ties over him being racist wouldn't be an option for me. He's my only brother and it'd hurt me less to let him be racist than to chose to never interact with him again knowing there's a brother I actually can't ever interact with again. Just seems petty to me, but then my perspective is different.
If I were you I'd have a serious discussion and try to open his mind if not, I'd think hard about cutting him out of your life and what that means. That's a major decision. Racism is no joke, I'm a black man living in the south so it's almost my everyday in some form, but if you simply accepted a racist family member for who they were I wouldn't hold it against you. Tons of people where I live do that. You aren't responsible for the actions of your family members. I think you can support him, while still denouncing his racist ways.
If I were you I'd have a serious discussion and try to open his mind if not, I'd think hard about cutting him out of your life and what that means. That's a major decision. Racism is no joke, I'm a black man living in the south so it's almost my everyday in some form, but if you simply accepted a racist family member for who they were I wouldn't hold it against you. Tons of people where I live do that. You aren't responsible for the actions of your family members. I think you can support him, while still denouncing his racist ways.
So I'm sure that I don't carry any clout around these parts, but I feel a need to weigh in on this whole topic.
I'm noticing a lot of kind of permanent or totally unhelpful type responses to this issue (i.e. cut him off, just don't talk about it), but the reality is that neither is going to fix any of the inherent problems. Keeping quiet and avoiding the topic is not only going to cause OP a huge amount of psychic discomfort, but also does nothing to actually educate his brother. Likewise with cutting him off.
Look, I'm white. My wife is black. Prior to meeting her, I'd heard a lot of stupid bullshit about how people shouldn't marry outside of their race, about the difficulty of being a mixed race child, etc. I've had family from the south, supposedly, who were in the KKK. I fell in love with this woman, and I wanted to be with her, but I had what in retrospect is an insane amount of anxiety over how to approach the matter with my family. What would they say? Would they disapprove? If they did, what kind of decisions would I have to make? Who would I resent? All of that was eating me alive.
All of that turned out to be a non-issue. My family loves this woman, and they treat her like true family, and she loves them as well. Their racism wasn't some inherent flaw, but a result of several layers of ignorance and indoctrination, and the thing that helped to chip away at that was having a member of "the other" brought into their family. There was no pain to the process. They just accept things as they are.
Do they still hold some ignorant thoughts? Definitely. No question. But this is progress.
OP, it's not as though your brother possesses some genetic defect that makes him think and say racist things. You'd likely have the same inclinations. His problem is that he's a human being, he's young, he lives in an grotesquely confusing and tumultuous time, and he's managed to internalize some really harmful bullshit. He's likely regurgitating, at least on some level, shit that he's heard from other ignorant, indoctrinated people.
Without question, his thinking is harmful, it leads to hatred and violence, and there is no place for it in the world many of us want to inhabit.
You have several choices in front of you, all of which are easy in some ways and difficult in others but many of which hold absolutely zero value in terms of fixing the problem.
First, you can avoid the matter altogether by steering the conversation away from matters of race, politics, etc., and focus instead on pleasantries and distracting media- or sports- type discussions and move on with your life knowing that you're lying to yourself and to your brother.
Or
You can stop talking to him altogether, which is actually much simpler in the sense that you'll have to put even less effort into avoiding his rhetoric. You'll have removed one of millions of painful elements from your life, taking away but a single reminder of the racist society we live in, but you will have alienated your brother, possibly other members of your family, and you will have squandered an opportunity to actually help him change in some meaningful way.
Or
You can scream at him, which would be pleasant in some ways in the short term, and which may make you feel like a big tough person who took a stand and fought against racism, but what do you gain? A momentary satisfaction that you fought. But will your brother change? He'll know you're angry. He may avoid saying things that upset you to keep the peace. But will you have changed his mind? Likely not.
Or you can do the difficult, thankless work of treating him with the same love and empathy with which you'd ask him to treat others, and work with him in ways that may be slow going and imperceptible but may eventually bear fruit. It means being patient, understanding that while his ideas may be evil, he's still just a person. That the things he thinks, stupid though they may be, are a result of something (likely a fear or a frustration), and work to help him understand.
What really sucks about this is that there is no ease to this method. It's unreasonable to expect him to do the work, although we'd all like to. That's hard to hear, but it is what it is. He has no incentive to change his world view, and since his ideas are so primitive and baseless and irrational and hateful, he doesn't have to bring any facts or logic to bear in defending them. That's what I mean--his effort only involves thinking what he thinks.
Your effort will have to involve a good deal of self-education, patience, empathy, and constantly finding creative new ways to talk about why his thinking is wrong in ways that don't alienate him.
That doesn't mean you have to be tolerant of racism. I think that's an easy take away from talking like this, but that isn't the intent at all. But the practical reality is this: refusing to speak to these people or attacking them with anger isn't going to fix the problem. That's a totally unskilled and embarrassing way to deal with the matter. And I'm not saying don't be angry. Be angry. I'm angry all the time about this shit. But losing control of that anger and aiming at someone instead of conducting yourself with grace and dignity gains you absolutely nothing.
There are a lot of angry people on this forum. I don't begrudge them that anger at all. Again, lord knows I have my own fair share of it. But I'm so tired of seeing people fuck up over and over and over again by responding to people like your brother with even more mindless, stupid, clumsy anger.
Love your brother, OP. Be patient with him. But also teach him, and never back down on what you believe. Sacrifice in the name of a cause sometimes means sacrificing your own sense of self righteousness. You can do both of those things, and you can do them without fracturing your family. I live in Appalachia, and I am surrounded by Trump supporters and Blue Lives Matter types, and it tears me up inside. But I've made way more progress with these people by being patient and having actual mature discussion with them than I have by flipping out every time I hear something that insults my personal worldview. I haven't completely changed anyone, but I've made more meaningful progress than I would have if I had just gotten angry and walked away from the conversation because it was too difficult to engage.
At the same time, the fuck do I know?
I'm noticing a lot of kind of permanent or totally unhelpful type responses to this issue (i.e. cut him off, just don't talk about it), but the reality is that neither is going to fix any of the inherent problems. Keeping quiet and avoiding the topic is not only going to cause OP a huge amount of psychic discomfort, but also does nothing to actually educate his brother. Likewise with cutting him off.
Look, I'm white. My wife is black. Prior to meeting her, I'd heard a lot of stupid bullshit about how people shouldn't marry outside of their race, about the difficulty of being a mixed race child, etc. I've had family from the south, supposedly, who were in the KKK. I fell in love with this woman, and I wanted to be with her, but I had what in retrospect is an insane amount of anxiety over how to approach the matter with my family. What would they say? Would they disapprove? If they did, what kind of decisions would I have to make? Who would I resent? All of that was eating me alive.
All of that turned out to be a non-issue. My family loves this woman, and they treat her like true family, and she loves them as well. Their racism wasn't some inherent flaw, but a result of several layers of ignorance and indoctrination, and the thing that helped to chip away at that was having a member of "the other" brought into their family. There was no pain to the process. They just accept things as they are.
Do they still hold some ignorant thoughts? Definitely. No question. But this is progress.
OP, it's not as though your brother possesses some genetic defect that makes him think and say racist things. You'd likely have the same inclinations. His problem is that he's a human being, he's young, he lives in an grotesquely confusing and tumultuous time, and he's managed to internalize some really harmful bullshit. He's likely regurgitating, at least on some level, shit that he's heard from other ignorant, indoctrinated people.
Without question, his thinking is harmful, it leads to hatred and violence, and there is no place for it in the world many of us want to inhabit.
You have several choices in front of you, all of which are easy in some ways and difficult in others but many of which hold absolutely zero value in terms of fixing the problem.
First, you can avoid the matter altogether by steering the conversation away from matters of race, politics, etc., and focus instead on pleasantries and distracting media- or sports- type discussions and move on with your life knowing that you're lying to yourself and to your brother.
Or
You can stop talking to him altogether, which is actually much simpler in the sense that you'll have to put even less effort into avoiding his rhetoric. You'll have removed one of millions of painful elements from your life, taking away but a single reminder of the racist society we live in, but you will have alienated your brother, possibly other members of your family, and you will have squandered an opportunity to actually help him change in some meaningful way.
Or
You can scream at him, which would be pleasant in some ways in the short term, and which may make you feel like a big tough person who took a stand and fought against racism, but what do you gain? A momentary satisfaction that you fought. But will your brother change? He'll know you're angry. He may avoid saying things that upset you to keep the peace. But will you have changed his mind? Likely not.
Or you can do the difficult, thankless work of treating him with the same love and empathy with which you'd ask him to treat others, and work with him in ways that may be slow going and imperceptible but may eventually bear fruit. It means being patient, understanding that while his ideas may be evil, he's still just a person. That the things he thinks, stupid though they may be, are a result of something (likely a fear or a frustration), and work to help him understand.
What really sucks about this is that there is no ease to this method. It's unreasonable to expect him to do the work, although we'd all like to. That's hard to hear, but it is what it is. He has no incentive to change his world view, and since his ideas are so primitive and baseless and irrational and hateful, he doesn't have to bring any facts or logic to bear in defending them. That's what I mean--his effort only involves thinking what he thinks.
Your effort will have to involve a good deal of self-education, patience, empathy, and constantly finding creative new ways to talk about why his thinking is wrong in ways that don't alienate him.
That doesn't mean you have to be tolerant of racism. I think that's an easy take away from talking like this, but that isn't the intent at all. But the practical reality is this: refusing to speak to these people or attacking them with anger isn't going to fix the problem. That's a totally unskilled and embarrassing way to deal with the matter. And I'm not saying don't be angry. Be angry. I'm angry all the time about this shit. But losing control of that anger and aiming at someone instead of conducting yourself with grace and dignity gains you absolutely nothing.
There are a lot of angry people on this forum. I don't begrudge them that anger at all. Again, lord knows I have my own fair share of it. But I'm so tired of seeing people fuck up over and over and over again by responding to people like your brother with even more mindless, stupid, clumsy anger.
Love your brother, OP. Be patient with him. But also teach him, and never back down on what you believe. Sacrifice in the name of a cause sometimes means sacrificing your own sense of self righteousness. You can do both of those things, and you can do them without fracturing your family. I live in Appalachia, and I am surrounded by Trump supporters and Blue Lives Matter types, and it tears me up inside. But I've made way more progress with these people by being patient and having actual mature discussion with them than I have by flipping out every time I hear something that insults my personal worldview. I haven't completely changed anyone, but I've made more meaningful progress than I would have if I had just gotten angry and walked away from the conversation because it was too difficult to engage.
At the same time, the fuck do I know?
My parents in law have always been right-wing Fox news viewers.
For several years I tolerated it politely, engaged them earnestly and respectfully and discussed topics with them in an effort to find common ground. It went well. We got along. We respected each other's viewpoints. My father-in-law even started talking to me about how bad it was that black people have to worry about getting shot by cops.
Then last year happened.
The current situation is that we're not speaking and they're harassing us on Facebook after threatening us with violence.
It's easy to tell yourself "well, hey, I didn't win them over immediately, but I made some progress." You might even believe it! But understanding somebody is not the same thing as actually causing them to develop moral character. Getting confused about that can be dangerous.
Pupperbabysassy
Member
He's racist and he believes in GOD? Does he know that he's going to hell for hatred?
Of course there is a common sense point where you have to step away from a situation. Also, while your story is terrible, it isn't evidence that one shouldn't try.
What I'm seeing from OP about his brother is that this dynamic is in early enough stages to approach with the method I advocate.
Outside of that, as an extreme, yeah... do whatever it takes to keep you and yours safe. There are, of course, some people who will never change.
But if I can counter your anecdote with one of my own: I had a coworker who moved away early last year. He contacted me a few weeks ago by phone to catch up, and he told me that our conversations had had a serious impact on how he thinks, particularly about politics and about matters of class. This is a person who would often get outraged about some "news" he had read, usually through Facebook, and so a good deal of my personal effort was (without calling him stupid or ignorant or raising my voice or any of that) to do some research on whatever the subject was (i.e. death panels, Obama sending the military to collect your guns, aborted fetus black market tissue), and coming back to him with information that helped clarify the issue. Sometimes he accepted it easily, sometimes not--I attribute the latter to an ego thing, which I get... I do stuff like that all the time probably.
But anyway, my point is this guy called, and he was talking to me about current issue, and I could tell that he'd had a pretty significant change in perspective. And he attributed that to our conversations, which took place over literal years as coworkers, and I didn't even know anything I'd said had made a difference until long after I thought he was out of my life forever.
So never assume your efforts are without value.
If it wasn't a big deal then they wouldn't be cutting family members out of their lives.
Not according to white god. You know, the one true god and the one republicans worahip.
Blueingreen
Member
Where is your family from historically if you don't mind me asking, it's quite a bizarre mindset?
Ronald Reagan ?
Militaratus
Member
I know your feel OP. My older brother links me videos of FEMA Death Camps and New World Order like an idiot. Even talked about blowing up a hotel due to it being run by the Illuminati. Just because they are family doesn't mean they share your level of intelligence and tolerance.
I just ignore him or show my displeasure when he spouts such nonsense, and treat him like a brother when he is acting normally. There's really not much you can do with an insane/racist family member.
I just ignore him or show my displeasure when he spouts such nonsense, and treat him like a brother when he is acting normally. There's really not much you can do with an insane/racist family member.
"Sure, my brother says he's going to blow up a hotel and kill innocent people, but hey, what are you gonna do?"
God save us from civic-minded Americans like you.
Militaratus
Member
Oh I knew it was the drugs talking when he said that, if he really planned to do it I would report him with no issue. Nowadays he moved to England and is more preoccupied with farting out children as he puts it, and metal detecting in munch infested Scotland trying to find hidden treasure... Seriously...
LookAtMeGo
Member
Luckily my family is good shit when it comes to race. My parents are still a bit religious about sexual orientation and it drives me mad but there is no hate involved, just stupid ignorance.
As for my friends though. I've got to the point that if any of them say some racist shit around me I tell them to shut the fuck up before I kick their ass and do my best to explain why they should shut the fuck up.
Its crazy how much it happens when white guys get together that people think its ok to be racist allofasudden. Im like yo you wouldn't say that shit if buddy was here so why you think its cool to say that shit now? IDGAF shut the fuck up.
All you can really do is try to learn people. I think I've got through to a lot of them. I find a lot of people are good people, just misguided. Just gota show em the light. But some are too far gone and there is no saving them. Hope your bro can grow the fuck up
As for my friends though. I've got to the point that if any of them say some racist shit around me I tell them to shut the fuck up before I kick their ass and do my best to explain why they should shut the fuck up.
Its crazy how much it happens when white guys get together that people think its ok to be racist allofasudden. Im like yo you wouldn't say that shit if buddy was here so why you think its cool to say that shit now? IDGAF shut the fuck up.
All you can really do is try to learn people. I think I've got through to a lot of them. I find a lot of people are good people, just misguided. Just gota show em the light. But some are too far gone and there is no saving them. Hope your bro can grow the fuck up
excelsiorlef
Member
Miles Quaritch
Member
Huh? So how did you convince your friend to change their views? Or are you simply pretending they don't have those views any more?
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I gave up on trying to convince family members. They can say all the stupid backwater things all they want. I just won't be around.
Psychoward
Banned
I'm glad someone who talked about blowing up buildings unironically is having multiple children.
This. ^
This is why I leave politics and religion out of EVERYTHING. Everyone has their own views and beliefs.
Miles Quaritch
Member
So if a family member was a virulent racist and was spreading that to their children, you'd just happily nod along like nothing was happening?
They're not your kids. You don't really get a say.
GameAddict411
Member
So basically sweep everything under the rug and pretend nothing is happening? His brother is harboring and growing hate inside him. It would be very concerning to me and everyone else who knows him if I were the op. The op brother case is not an isolated case. It's been happening all over America. Racial violence is only going to grow. It's a reality that we have to face and to try to reverse or else this world is fucking doomed.
Professor Beef
Banned
Cut him out of your life at your earliest convenience. You'll both be happier for it.
Whenever one of these threads pop out and people are like "just don't talk about X with them" or even worse "don't bring up anything remotely political" I'm like... what the hell do you people talk about with your friends and relatives. There's only so much I can say about the weather and the last video game.
Nevermind the fact that whether or not you talk about it, they're still racist and you know it, and you choose to ignore it because it doesn't personally affect you.
Nevermind the fact that whether or not you talk about it, they're still racist and you know it, and you choose to ignore it because it doesn't personally affect you.
SomewhatGroovy
Banned
This is such a sensitive topic to me as I had a (half) brother (we share same mom who married my Arabic dad after divorcing his white dad) who I had loved for 37 years out of the blue tell me to move my "ass back with the rest of your sand ******s" when Trump won. Some deep harbored anger he carried for years , hidden really well, that just came out of nowhere. Haven't spoken with him or our mom since and am at peace knowing I never may.
OP, we don't get to choose our family but your brother sounds like he still may have an in you can use to help him. At end of day he is responsible for his behavior and you are responsible for who you surrounded yourself with. Best of luck
OP, we don't get to choose our family but your brother sounds like he still may have an in you can use to help him. At end of day he is responsible for his behavior and you are responsible for who you surrounded yourself with. Best of luck
GameAddict411
Member
It's clear he was lashing out at you for reasons beyond just racism, but I get how difficult it is. Hope they will come around one day.
Miles Quaritch
Member
So you'd ignore abuse because they are not your kids?
How far would you take this line of thinking?
Miles Quaritch
Member
No-one goes to sand nigger as an attack unless they've been harbouring those feelings for some time.
Eh I'm a junior don't wanna risk my account. You try
Probably a good call, just be on the safe side for a while. Even though I make sweeping generalizations about various artificially-separated groups all the time on here
I wish no one was part of any permanent groups, so generalizing would be pointless. It would add a lot more nuance to everything. Tribalism sucks.
I hear this a lot from moderate-ish conservatives, but it's always paired with the toxic idea that if you try to ignore or don't think about how people create groups and discriminate against out-groups, then you won't discriminate and there won't be an issue. I think even basic psychology shows that this isn't true.
Damm, this is a pretty stupid attitude to take.
All I said was I wish. I'm not saying it's reality, and as long as all humans aren't indoctrinated with positive experiences of every possible common physical, mental, ideological, or preferential variation of the species at birth, it never will be.
The only people saying that are people who don't have to worry about being discriminated. I agree.
'Ignore discrimination?' Boom. Outed. You don't know what discrimination is.
Psychoward
Banned
Lol
I'm not sure what's funnier, treating massive racism as a view and belief that should be tolerated or pretending that if you ignore "politics" it won't be an issue
America's partisanship is so fucked when blatant racism is seen as a valid platform even among people who disagree.
Psychoward
Banned
Calling someone a sand n***** and telling them to move back to their own country after celebrating the election of a xenophobic white supremacist they voted for is pretty fucking racist. That's like, as close to 100% concentrated racism as you can get without physically harming someone because of their race. Jesus.