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[Rocket Number 22]

So that's the benchmark for how awful a religion is? As long as they're not driving trucks, all other behavior and history is acceptable?

 

[nkarafo]

Read a bible, and the stuff we fear about muslims is also contained in their holy book.

Christianity was "patched" with the new testament though. Muslims still only have the outdated version.

 

[Reverse Giraffe]

I'm pretty sure this is the actual trend in Europe.

Who knows what will happen, immigration is mostly because people are fleeing the wars in Syria and others, will that war really last for other 30 years?

That's the thing about the Middle East. While the Syrian Civil War may have ended, who knows what other conflicts will come up in the region? It is perpetually at war. Saudi Arabia is waging war in Yemen and has made numerous bellicose gestures toward Qatar, Lebanon and Iran.

The people of the West Bank and Gaza will attack Israel again just as they always have in the past.

 

[Reverse Giraffe]

Christianity was "patched" with the new testament though. Muslims still only have the outdated version.

.

 

[JordanN]

strawman

Terrorists also target muslims who haven't killed anyone.

Now you understand why it's called extremism.

Christianity was "patched" with the new testament though. Muslims still only have the outdated version.

Patched

a.k.a A perfect divine being can change his mind at will. Ok.

 

[i-Lo]

Unsurprisingly some really disgusting responses here.

I understand the fear some people have but demonizing the moderates whose successors are expected to fully integrate with european/western culture is not doing anyone favours.

Terrorists also target muslims who haven't killed anyone.

Now you understand why it's called extremism.



Patched

a.k.a A perfect divine being can change his mind at will. Ok.

Because mainstream christianity today is more about community and an adherence to a code by which to live and less about divine being overall.

 

[Dunki]

Unsurprisingly some really disgusting responses here.

I understand the fear some people have but demonizing the moderates whose successors are expected to fully integrate with european/western culture is not doing anyone favours.



Because mainstream christianity today is more about community and an adherence to a code by which to live and less about divine being overall.

The problem is that even in Germany the moderates are not a majoity but a small minority. Again 8 in 10 Mosques teaching radical believes. In Berlin there is a very liberal mosques in which men and women can pray together without restrictions with out separate entrances etc. And you know what?

This one now needs to be under police protection every day because your so called moderate muslims thinking this is a disgrace to Islam.

 

[JordanN]

Because mainstream christianity today is more about community and an adherence to a code by which to live and less about divine being overall.

Motivated by fear in which if you don't accept God/Jesus, you are essentially doomed for all eternity.

There is community, but God is still central to the way the religion works.

Actually, that's why I find it weird how Christianity supposedly "fixed" the bible. All non-Christians are written off for being non-believers and sent to a place of torment. Not even the original Old Testament said that (although in that book, God has no problem going to war and claiming land for his people).

 

[TTOOLL]

Sweden is fucked.

Before you criticise me let me remind you that in Muslin countries people are NOT free as we are in western societies, especially women and minorities.

 

[JordanN]

Sweden is fucked.

Before you criticise me let me remind you that in Muslin countries people are NOT free as we are in western societies, especially women and minorities.

I'm interested in what is your solution.

Do you want a law to explicitly states "no muslims"? Basically puts a ban on a religion?

 

[Martinski43]

Being Swedish i have been thinking about moving to Poland, Czech republic or the baltic countries. Mostly because i am anti-religion. And Islam is a religion is disagree on so many many levels so if that will become more and more influential here i am outta here.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Wait, you seriously think that Muslims will be the majority by 2100? It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. MAYBE by like, 2500.

 

[T.v]

Religion is not the biggest problem here with bringing in refugees. Integration is. Most countries have a shamefully inadequate system in place to deal with immigrants, and have had long before it began to be overburdened by these mass numbers. This is a situation that's rough on all parties and we'd better step up soon.

The behavio of some in this thread is also shameful. Bunch of fanatics dogpiling and throwing the discussion way off. I sincerely hope there will be some decent moderation soon.

 

[Sosokrates]

Thats fine with me, as long as they follow the laws, the same with any person regardless of there religion.

 

[Stare-Bear]

The problem is that we try to fit in their morals and values. Sexual education is dwindling down because Muslim youth doesn’t want to hear about LGBT issues.

Schools in Dutch cities play down or even skip history lessons about the holocaust because Muslim youth believe it never happened.

While all religions have its bad sides, I feel that Islam is particularly vicious to anyone who’s not a straight male.

 

[HarryKS]

Don't worry, Cthulu will take over by then. Hail Cthulhu.

 

[Xenobureido]

Christianity was "patched" with the new testament though. Muslims still only have the outdated version.

That's something so important. On top of it, Christianity also went through secularisation, strictly removing the church from the state.

Christianity was like Islam - 500 years ago. Unfortunately we cannot give Islam that much time to catch up. Respecting women and homosexuals needs to happen right now.

 

[New Year. New Me]

The solution to this issue is limiting or blocking anyone's ability to live in Europe. In fact, if we want to change the values that we find concerning we need to have discussions that find a middle-ground between common values of Islam and Europe. Pretending that they don't exist or inherently hating then doesn't help. We need to make an effort to reach across the table and try to understand them so we can coexist.

 

[Takyon]

It's just my hunch that the immigration level will be a little bit below the "medium" trend in that graph.

 

[Ubername]

Thats fine with me, as long as they follow the laws, the same with any person regardless of there religion.

Yea fine with me as well, I mean humanity does such a good job at not attempting superiority over each other and not discriminating based on skin color, sexuality and political ideals, damn fine job at not doing that.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Who knows what will happen, immigration is mostly because people are fleeing the wars in Syria and others, will that war really last for other 30 years?

A lot of the refugees and immigrants flowing into Europe right now are not from Syria. From the entire African continent (mostly) young men are looking for a better future in Europe. There's no reason to assume this will stop anytime soon.

My opinion on this as a Dutchman, is that we should restrict immigration. It's already been proven that people from these areas are hard to integrate, and often times they have difficulty entering the workforce as well. We should invest in the economies of these African countries to reduce poverty, eliminating the main reason they have for coming here.

 

[Ke0]

Maybe if we stop destabilizing their region constantly they wouldn't be migranting in the numbers they do…or we can continue to destabilize the region then complain about the displaced people that come as a result.

 

[Durask]

I think a nice read to complement the original post will be this article.

https://medium.com/incerto/the-most...of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15#.3vinlxv0s

The One-Way Street of Religions
In the same manner, the spread of Islam in the Near East where Christianity was heavily entrenched (it was born there) can be attributed to two simple asymmetries. The original Islamic rulers weren’t particularly interested in converting Christians as these provided them with tax revenues –the proselytism of Islam did not address those called “people of the book”, i.e. individuals of Abrahamic faith. In fact, my ancestors who survived thirteen centuries under Muslim rule saw advantages in not being Muslim: mostly in the avoidance of military conscription.
The two asymmetric rules were are as follows. First, if a non Muslim man under the rule of Islam marries a Muslim woman, he needs to convert to Islam –and if either parents of a child happens to be Muslim, the child will be Muslim[3]. Second, becoming Muslim is irreversible, as apostasy is the heaviest crime under the religion, sanctioned by the death penalty. The famous Egyptian actor Omar Sharif, born Mikhael Demetri Shalhoub, was of Lebanese Christian origins. He converted to Islam to marry a famous Egyptian actress and had to change his name to an Arabic one. He later divorced, but did not revert to the faith of his ancestors.
Under these two asymmetric rules, one can do simple simulations and see how a small Islamic group occupying Christian (Coptic) Egypt can lead, over the centuries, to the Copts becoming a tiny minority. All one needs is a small rate of interfaith marriages. Likewise, one can see how Judaism doesn’t spread and tends to stay in the minority, as the religion has opposite rules: the mother is required to be Jewish, causing interfaith marriages to leave the community. An even stronger asymmetry than that of Judaism explains the depletion in the Near East of three Gnostic faiths: the Druze, the Ezidi, and the Mandeans (Gnostic religions are those with mysteries and knowledge that is typically accessible to only a minority of elders, with the rest of the members in the dark about the details of the faith). Unlike Islam that requires either parents to be Muslim, and Judaism that asks for at least the mother to have the faith, these three religions require both parents to be of the faith, otherwise the person says toodaloo to the community.
Egypt has a flat terrain. The distribution of the population presents homogeneous mixtures there, which permits renormalization (i.e. allows the asymmetric rule to prevail) –we saw earlier in the chapter that for Kosher rules to work, one needed Jews to be somewhat spread out across the country. But in places such as Lebanon, Galilee, and Northern Syria, with mountainous terrain, Christians and other Non Sunni Muslims remained concentrated. Christians not being exposed to Muslims, experienced no intermarriage.
Egypt’s Copts suffered from another problem: the irreversibility of Islamic conversions. Many Copts during Islamic rule converted to Islam when it was merely an administrative procedure, something that helps one land a job or handle a problem that requires Islamic jurisprudence. One do not have to really believe in it since Islam doesn’t conflict markedly with Orthodox Christianity. Little by little a Christian or Jewish family bearing the marrano-style conversion becomes truly converted, as, a couple of generations later, the descendants forget the arrangement of their ancestors.
So all Islam did was out-stubborn Christianity, which itself won thanks to its own stubbornness. For, before Islam, the original spread of Christianity in the Roman empire can be largely seen due to… the blinding intolerance of Christians, their unconditional, aggressive and proselyting recalcitrance. Roman pagans were initially tolerant of Christians, as the tradition was to share gods with other members of the empire. But they wondered why these Nazarenes didn’t want to give and take gods and offer that Jesus fellow to the Roman pantheon in exchange for some other gods. What, our gods aren’t good enough for them? But Christians were intolerant of Roman paganism. The “persecutions” of the Christians had vastly more to do with the intolerance of the Christians for the pantheon and local gods, than the reverse. What we read is history written by the Christian side, not the Greco-Roman one. [4]
We know too little about the Roman side during the rise of Christianity, as hagiographies have dominated the discourse: we have for instance the narrative of the martyr Saint Catherine, who kept converting her jailors until she was beheaded, except that… she may have never existed. There are endless histories of Christian martyrs and saints –but very little about the other side, Pagan heroes. All we have is the bit we know about the reversion to Christianity during the emperor Julian’s apostasy and the writings of his entourage of Syrian-Greek pagans such as Libanius Antiochus. Julian had tried to go back to Ancient Paganism in vain: it was like trying to keep a balloon under water. And it was not because the majority was pagan as historians mistakenly think: it was because the Christian side was too unyielding. Christianity had great minds such as Gregorius of Nazianzen and Basil of Caesaria, but nothing to match the great orator Libanius, not even close. (My heuristic is that the more pagan, the more brilliant one’s mind, and the higher one’s ability to handle nuances and ambiguity. Purely monotheistic religious such as Protestant Christianity, Salafi Islam, or fundamentalist atheism accommodate literalist and mediocre minds that cannot handle ambiguity.)
In fact we can observe in the history of Mediterranean “religions” or, rather, rituals and systems of behavior and belief, a drift dictated by the intolerant, actually bringing the system closer to what we can call a religion. Judaism might have almost lost because of the mother-rule and the confinement to a tribal base, but Christianity ruled, and for the very same reasons, Islam did. Islam? there have been many Islams, the final accretion quite different from the earlier ones. For Islam itself is ending up being taken over (in the Sunni branch) by the purists simply because these were more intolerant than the rest: the Wahhabis, founders of Saudi Arabia, were the ones who destroyed the shrines, and to impose the maximally intolerant rule, in a manner that was later imitated by “ISIS” (the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria/the Levant). Every single accretion of Sunni Islam seems to be there to accommodate the most intolerant of its branches.

 

[Sinfamy]

Maybe if we stop destabilizing their region constantly they wouldn't be migranting in the numbers they do...or we can continue to destabilize the region then complain about the displaced people that come as a result.

Oh yea because Sweden sure loves destabilizing the Middle Eastern region.
Who is this "we"?

 

[base]

Meh, don't really care which religion takes over.

Before Islam, Christianity wasn't native to Europe. I'm pretty sure there where Vikings, the Gauls and the Normans who were living there and practiced another religion.

Regions always change throughout history. It's no different today.

Instead of complaining about another group taking over, why not increase the birth rate of your own? Nothing says Christians can't have children at the same rate as Muslims.

I'm not really into religion, don't really care about it but honestly, don't you think Islam would destroy our way of life? And also, why give up all the culture we've built up during centuries? Ancient Romans, Greeks, etc. It's our legacy. We should be proud to be Europeans.

 

[JordanN]

I'm not really into religion, don't really care about it but honestly, don't you think Islam would destroy our way of life?

Muslims already live here so no.

And also, why give up all the culture we've built up during centuries? Ancient Romans, Greeks, etc. It's our legacy. We should be proud to be Europeans.

Then have more babies. Blaming another group for your problems is incompetence.

 

[base]

People seriously arguing that homophobia is a thing of past in Christianity? Do you guys pay attention to what is happening in this country? We literally have a homophobic Vice President.

Did he kill anyone for being gay?

 

[base]

Muslims already live here so no.


Then have more babies. Blaming another group for your problems is incompetence.

But they are still minority. In countries where they are getting a mayor influence they become violent.

I don't blame them for having children. I'm not on that level. But I can tell you that they use social benefits in the European countries, don't want to work and don't integrate well. Muslim people born in Germany (a simple example) don't want to take a basic education, many people are analfabetic or really low educated.

If they want to come here they are welcome but they have to follow the rules. Not making their own laws like sharia. Plus their women should take off their burkas.

 

[Dunki]

But they are still minority. In countries where they are getting a mayor influence they become violent.

I don't blame them for having children. I'm not on that level. But I can tell you that they use social benefits in the European countries, don't want to work and don't integrate well. Muslim people born in Germany (a simple example) don't want to take a basic education, many people are analfabetic or really low educated.

If they want to come here they are welcome but they have to follow the rules. Not making their own laws like sharia. Plus their women should take off their burkas.

I totally agree with this, I would also go the route to bann all mosques financed by Saudi Arabia and co and isntead build one ones who have Imans who were educated in Europe and do not teach radical believes of Turkey or Saudi Arabia. Also the Burka has NOTHING to do with the Islam. It was a tool invented by the radical Islam.

 

[JordanN]

But they are still minority. In countries where they are getting a mayor influence they become violent.

Do the violent countries you speak of have a history of geo-politics and foreign intervention that pushed them ideologically closer to violence instead of just being Muslim majority?

Also, you realize in these same countries that peaceful muslims are targeted as well? Extremists don't care who they target.

I don't blame them for having children. I'm not on that level. But I can tell you that they use social benefits in the European countries, don't want to work and don't integrate well. Muslim people born in Germany (a simple example) don't want to take a basic education, many people are analfabetic or really low educated.

I can't speak for Germany but muslims have integrated themselves in other Western countries.

If they want to come here they are welcome but they have to follow the rules. Not making their own laws like sharia. Plus their women should take off their burkas.

I agree. This is why it's important to have a constitution that would be hard to overturn by mob rule.

 

[base]

Do the violent countries you speak of have a history of geo-politics and foreign intervention that pushed them ideologically closer to violence instead of just being Muslim majority?

Also, you realize in these same countries that peaceful muslims are targeted as well? Extremists don't care who they target.



I can't speak for Germany but muslims have integrated themselves in other Western countries.


I agree. This is why it's important to have a constitution that would be hard to overturn by mob rule.

I'm a foreigner living in another European country, so FYI I really know how it's like when the natives don't like me because of my countrymen - stereotypes, etc.

That's why I'm not talking about the whole Muslim community. I have muslim friends from Morocco and Iraq, they are OK but there's one thing which shocked me - they never criticized the WTC attack or any other terrorist attack. They always say their "brothers" fight for their religion's freedom. Total bullshit if you ask me.

The West countries feel awful about the colonies from centuries ago. They feel they have to pay the debt so they let them in.

May I ask you one thing? If more than half of the population of the Earth is really poor and move to one continent, you really think it wouldn't have a mayor impact on the whole continent? In my opinion it would destroy it and once again in the human history there would be a big shit on the whole planet. But yeah, our religion gives us hope. And the cycle repeats itself for years.

That's why all religions are stupid. We should be moving to Mars by now not thinking about some guy who never showed up plus millions of people were killed in his name.

 

[Dunki]

Do the violent countries you speak of have a history of geo-politics and foreign intervention that pushed them ideologically closer to violence instead of just being Muslim majority?

Also, you realize in these same countries that peaceful muslims are targeted as well? Extremists don't care who they target.



I can't speak for Germany but muslims have integrated themselves in other Western countries.


I agree. This is why it's important to have a constitution that would be hard to overturn by mob rule.

Many here have not. Example is this video which was aired in 2015 by a very central TV station. If you have 30 minutes watch it it has english subtitles as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWAIKoatWM&t=818s

The conclusion we have huge problems right now with parallel worlds even following their own laws ignoring our courts etc. What the scary part is that many muslim children believe in the Sharia and how a women has to obey their man etc.

And now with 1 million more muslims and the fact that 8 out of 10 mosques teach radical believes here. There is a huge problem growing and growing while our gov just seem to ignore it and the huge influence Saudi Arabia and Turkey has on the Islam in Germany.

 

[Mister Apoc]

there are fundamental differences between islam and christianity

islam has no seperation of state and religion like christianity has

"render unto ceasar which is caesar's"

islam has no equivalent to that

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Between me growing up with Lebanese Christians and knowing a couple of terrorist sympathizers (Afghan and Lebanese), I dont think the growth of Middle Eastern culture in Europe will be a positive one.
Eventually, I expect to see the kind of tribal violence that exists in the Middle East today, repeat itself in Europe and maybe the white populations fleeing to places like Russia.

 

[Reverse Giraffe]

Do the violent countries you speak of have a history of geo-politics and foreign intervention that pushed them ideologically closer to violence instead of just being Muslim majority?

Also, you realize in these same countries that peaceful muslims are targeted as well? Extremists don't care who they target.

I can't speak for Germany but muslims have integrated themselves in other Western countries.

I agree. This is why it's important to have a constitution that would be hard to overturn by mob rule.

Its funny, we're like complete opposites I'm liberal on everything except that I don't believe Islam is a positive thing (because of my liberal principles.)

You're a conservative Muslim coddler.

 

[JordanN]

there are fundamental differences between islam and christianity

islam has no seperation of state and religion like christianity has

"render unto ceasar which is caesar's"

islam has no equivalent to that

In practice, Christians don't care.

Again, look at who opposed Same-sex marriage in the Western world? Or the fact Christians run for government.

Its funny, we're like complete opposites I'm liberal on everything except that I don't believe Islam is a positive thing (because of my liberal principles.)

You're a conservative Muslim coddler.

1.6 Billion muslims currently exist.
If they're really a threat or are plotting to ruin our lives, we should all be dead by now.

I never said I believe Islam to be a good thing. I'm critical of all religions. But it's paranoia to somehow think every Muslim wants your head when they already live in our society.
Or when people talk about violence yet innocent muslims are still targeted.

 

[Spooky Scary Skeleton]

I have absolutely no problem with Shia muslims. It's the Sunni sects that tends to get brainwashed a lot by Wahabism beliefs.

 

[InterMusketeer]

1.6 Billion muslims currently exist.
If they're really a threat or are plotting to ruin our lives, we should all be dead by now.

I don't think they want to kill us, I just think they don't give a fuck about western culture and values and will replace it with their own. I don't think they're aware of this, or that it's something they're actively pushing for (though Erdogan was calling for Turks living in western Europe to have as many children as possible), but it just happens naturally when a large group migrates. Especially when they can't or won't assimilate to the host culture. I do notice that a lot of muslims are very forgiving and supporting of their motherland, despite those countries' obvious shortcomings, whereas they're very critical of Europe.

 

[womfalcs3]

I wish the trend would go to not having a religion at all.

Not gonna happen. It was God's will to have Muslims permeate the world.

 

[Mister Apoc]

the Middle East being the way as purely a result of western colonialism is a lacking theory

i don't disagree that it played a role, but other regions were just as effected by western colonialism and they are not experiencing anywhere near the violence like in the middle east

 

[womfalcs3]

the Middle East being the way as purely a result of western colonialism is a lacking theory

i don't disagree that it played a role, but other regions were just as effected by western colonialism and they are not experiencing anywhere near the violence like in the middle east

Yes. Just read about Great Britain colonizing Oman, the UAE, Iraq, and Egypt, and drawing birders after it left.

And the French in Egypt and Labanon.

They drew borders less than a century ago that ignited the fighting we see today.

 

[Mister Apoc]

Yes. Just read about Great Britain colonizing Oman, the UAE, Iraq, and Egypt, and drawing birders after it left.

And the French in Egypt and Labanon.

They drew borders less than a century ago that ignited the fighting we see today.

doesn't explain the crusades or alot of islamic imperalism before western colonialism

 

[Mr_Black]

Man. You guys seem so worldly.

You know there are gay Muslims right? Fucking hell.

ISIS attackers are the consequence of the forever wars in mid east. What did you think was going to happen? We'd just obliterate all those families and that wouldn't galvanise a response?

ISIS has as much to do with Islam as Roy Moore has to do with Christianity.

Muslims are pretty much the same vacuous money grabbing assholes as we are.

But yeah some young desperate Muslims are getting peddled a bunch of easy answers from radical clerics.

Similar to how that guy in Charlottesvile got sold on a bunch of easy answers.

Radicalism in all forms seem to end up with someone getting run over.

If people feel like they have attachments to this world. Things they care about and don't want to lose like family, wealth, a good house, job etc. You'll find most people are absolutely the same regardless of religious dogma.

You'll find that how powerful the dogma is is correlated to how fucked up the surroundings are. See Alabama.

 

[BraveOne]

Islam and its followers can fuck off. Their culture and society is beyond fucked. "but all religionz bad" yeah no. Compare standards of living between christian nations and muslim ones. Where'd you rather live?

To be fair, the year is 1439 in the Muslim calendar.

Modern muslims aren't comparable to modern Christians. They are more like Middle ages Christians.

Europe seems to want this mass migration ...they've been voting in favor of it time and time again. that being the case, i find it harder and harder to feel sorry for them. reap what you sow ...which will likely be more and more terrorism, and possibly/eventually Sharia Law.

people love to complain about and mock Christianity ...but have a go with Islam under Sharia and start your list of complaints. you'll be begging for the former in no time.

How on earth are you not Banned, these have to be the most racist and ignorant post i think ive ever seen on this board. Quality has really dropped if mod's are not banning these accounts.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Muslims didn't invent sexism and homophobia, but they do it worse than anyone else I can think of on the planet. Hopefully, these new migrants to Europe have sought to live there in part so they can leave behind the regressive traits of the societies they left behind.

Actually, American Muslims are more accepting of same-sex marriage than white Evangelical Christians.

 

[Ashes]

How on earth are you not Banned, these have to be the most racist and ignorant post i think ive ever seen on this board. Quality has really dropped if mod's are not banning these accounts.

And these people consider themselves the enlightened ones.

 

[rrvv]

Many here have not. Example is this video which was aired in 2015 by a very central TV station. If you have 30 minutes watch it it has english subtitles as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWAIKoatWM&t=818s

The conclusion we have huge problems right now with parallel worlds even following their own laws ignoring our courts etc. What the scary part is that many muslim children believe in the Sharia and how a women has to obey their man etc.

And now with 1 million more muslims and the fact that 8 out of 10 mosques teach radical believes here. There is a huge problem growing and growing while our gov just seem to ignore it and the huge influence Saudi Arabia and Turkey has on the Islam in Germany.

source please

 

[Mr_Black]

And these people consider themselves the enlightened ones.

You could probably feed a load of breitbart articles, a splash of info wars and the_donald into some sort of deep learning algorithm.

And it could spit out the same exact posts as that fucking moron.

They can't even tell they all sound exactly the same. It's fucking bananas.

It's all surface level talking points with no real intellectual merit. Just a hop scotch of bullshit breitbart articles regurgitated ad nauseam.

The worst part is they don't even have the self awareness to even realise it.

Just some sort of strange conviction of knowledge. Based on breitbart talking points. It's so fucking sad to see so many young people get marked like this.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Islam and its followers can fuck off. Their culture and society is beyond fucked. "but all religionz bad" yeah no. Compare standards of living between christian nations and muslim ones. Where'd you rather live?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_Philippines

Would you like to live in the Philippines?

 

[BraveOne]

Taking images from T_D.. Gaf needs to drop people like you. You are a poison on this forum