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NieR: Automata Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter BRSxIgnition
- Start date
Wait... did you get Ending E or not?
Because... you should probably get on that if you haven't.
As for "not getting it" just think of it this way: "everything in automata is in service to its themes". Just mull over it for a couple of days. Imo the game only ever got better the more I made connections and interpretations the better it got imo.
btw: pascal's mentioning of Nietzsche and how the bosses are named after philosophical figures isn't not important.
In order:
- For ending E the pods go against their programming to maintain the memories of 2B, 9S, and A2 since they have gotten so close. The pods realize this might just end up being a horrible mistake, since the machine-android war still must go on, but they decide to risk it for that slight glimmer of hope.
- The reveal of 2B being 2E is a 2 fold reveal.
1: It reveals that A2 is much older than we assumed, since she is quite literally the second prototype attacker android. This lets us into why she knows what she knows and why she hates YoRHa.
2: Its gives context to everything we've seen that was conflicting about 2B. "emotions are prohibited" is only ever expressed by 2B. No one else really cares, unless its 2B to 9S; then "emotions are prohibited". It makes 2B into a tragic character (not that she wasn't already)
- The backdoor is to enable endless fighting. The backdoor happens, android data moves onto new models, cycle continues. Each side constantly evolving in a made-up war, with made-up motives, with made-up gods. Its just the truest kind of sad. (this is mostly contextualized by when you learn about android moral after humanities demise; doubly so after you learn Devola and Popola's past post Nier).
Ritzboof
Member
im sorta with you on this one, the ending was a bit awkward. things could have been built up far better, like the concept that 2B is actually supposed to be executing 9S the whole time. the implications of that flew straight over my head, and i only have a deeper understanding of it after having it spelled out for me here. im not really sure what i missed
the ending is a bit awkward, but what really did it about ending E for me was the interaction between the pods and how hard the game doubled down on its theme. just on its own, its a fantastic and thoughtful ending with an immensely charming hint of metagame. its just very awkward with how it ties together the events of the game
edit: i could be horribly wrong, though:
because i have no idea what this is referring to. i must have missed a whole lot at some point
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The game doesn't do a very good job of conveying the exact nature of 2B and 9S' situation, and to an extent, it kind of sabotages its own reveal with the clipshow of incidental deaths from throughout the game.
Plus, the one time that 9S actually DOES learn the truth, the Commander confronts 9S and is just like "yeah I guess" and 2B doesn't have to kill him.
You can get a little more context from this short story: http://nier2.com/blog/2017/03/07/nierautomata-world-guide-novellas/#more-5385
For reference, that story is meant to take place at some point before the game begins.
Snakethesniper
Member
The backdoor is the final stage of Project Yorha. The idea if I'm not mistaking is to eliminate all Yohra androids and the bunkers so that the remaining androids on earth will never discover the truth about humanity being extinct and continue believing that humans are on the moon waiting till the war is over. Like the return of Jesus Christ basically.
yes got it! Like I said, I don't think it's bad, far from it, but the execution was...weird? Like, the fact that 2B killed/got killed 9S numerous time was already hinted ("It ends always like this"), and we can't really connect with the reaction of 9S when it discovers the truth becase...we already knew it (and maybe him too, I don't remember with which character we find the top secret files that says what's project Yorha). I mean, I didn't get really a feel of "revelation" at the end, because they basically told this things far before, so you get there like "yeah I knew that".
On another note, I feel like the characters in the first Nier were more fleshed out. Like Pascal seems the Automata's Emil but fails in comparison. Weiss was more interesting than the pods, and we get a whole backstory for ... the "girl" I don't remember the name atm
This makes some sense. Thank you. Thank you to the other poster too.
I'm assuming the red girl was a projection of the machine's network consciousness, simply because that's how I remember it and I don't want to go back and check (I've set the game down for the night). If so, does that mean the machines made YoRHa? And regardless of that, if the final stage was blowing up the bunker for the sake of Earth androids, why make the logic virus? And, I thought YoRHa was invented before humans died.
Appreciate the time taken to answer these. If anyone has any reading or viewing material that would help, I'd be grateful.
- The red girls are indeed manifestations of the machine network main server.
- No the machines did not make YoRHa.(despite Black Boxes being made from machine cores) Other androids did (iirc Jackass is off to hunt them down)
- Its all for show. Creating a false narritive to give meaning to the lives of other androids (which includes giving an excuse to continue fighting). A logic virus raises few eyebrows and makes androids more likely to look for some semblance of "vengeance" making the cycle spin spin spin.
- Nope. The Humanity Server/ council of humanity was made as part of project YoRHa. Humans were dead for quite some time before YoRHa was implemented
Playing/ watching a LP/ retrospective of Nier would help a great deal i think since it will give you a better understanding on the whole white chlorination and project gestalt goings on. assuming you haven't experienced the first game at all at some point.
No, this is the Commander being very subtle about it. Think about it. Who is the first person 9S would have discussed the matter with after that talk between 9S and the Commander? 9S specifically laments the fact that he didn't have time to talk to 2B about it before the major operation at the start of Route C. What do you think would happened if 9S had brought it up with her? The thing is that 2B doesn't need separate kill order to off 9S. She is authorized to do so from the start and can kill him when she sees it necessary.
thequickandthedead
Member
Uh this might be a dumb question but why were the YorHa units given emotions if they were prohibited?
Not trying to be snarky or anything but think of it this way:
Who specifically says "emotions are prohibited"?
Why might they be saying that?
Why might no one else but said character care at all about "emotions"?
See this is another thing i'm missing: if the YoRHa project always had in plans to eventually exterminate the units, why building them in the first place? I mean, they could have done the whole Council of Humanity thing even without YoRHa, and its not like they were made to put and end to the war since it was already planned to continue it.
Part of the project for creating the artificial God that is the Council of humanity. Their new, snazzy and incredibly advanced combat androids descend from the skies as the proverbial angels of vengeance. Its part of the symbolism and gives a nice morale boost to the groundpounders.
Disagree on 2 fronts here. Nier is about perspectives thus characters become the center of the plot and driving force for the player. Automata is more about literal existentialism and is more beholden to its themes than Nier was. The best example i go to is Adam and Eve. On the face of it, they seem like short-lived kinda meh villians, until you clue in that they are more concepts for the greater idea behind "hatred" and more-over an extension of the ideas behind the machine network itself; that's when they become truly deep characters. The second point is Pascal. He's much more like the King of facade and the Wolves combined and morphed in a way.
I was also pretty okay with the pods too since its more about their growth to sentience than anything else. The moment pod 153 talked about how 2B should initiate conversation more, I basically made a mental note: yeah, these aren't just mindless bot-pods. But that's just me.
That... wouldn't work at all logistically. Say the council of humanity exists w/o YoRHa. Then what? Who sends supplies? Who fights the Alien machine network?
Basically, you can think of YoRHa as a guinea pig military branch of the concept of Androids. The whole point of YoRHa is an image to give other androids. "There is a fight worth fighting for, so don't give up". w/o YoRHa, that's utterly meaningless.
Yeah, the false angels beholden to a god already dead is a much better way of putting it, your right. Makes the whole gothic, young, hyper attractive aesthetic of all the YoRHa units make much more sense, honestly.
Edit: I also noticed how the Operators have the reverse aesthetic traits that field YoRHa do. Almost like, while the ground units are blind but can "speak" (a metaphoric freedom) as much as they want because they can be on earth, the Operators can't "speak" (must stay on the bunker) but are the eyes for the ground units during missions.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I know, but the point is that it's another moment that works against the big 2E reveal.
Not only do we get a clipshow of incidental deaths that don't represent what A2 was talking about, but we also have a moment earlier in the game that sets a conflicting precedent unless you really think about it(and that provokes more logical gaps that you have to stop and fill in).
It all shakes out eventually, but the delivery leaves a lot of room for improvement. It's not like Taro is a stranger to big emotional impacts that become deeper upon examination. It was definitely within his area of expertise to make that moment clearer without sacrificing depth.
Only if you expect it to be one DUN DUN DUN!!!!!! Now everything suddenly makes sense! -reveal, instead of one in the series of reveals that together form the big picture that makes one go:
The whole game is filled with aspects that only make sense after something else is revealed. Its pretty clear that it is supposed to build up gradually.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Regardless of any imagery, A2 made it plenty clear herself. "2B hated to keep killing you" coupled with the type E reveal was plenty
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Not at all. The Project Gestalt reveal from the first game is powerful, but it has layers to it that you have to dissect through inference and supplemental material.
Further, this is the reveal. It's not building up to anything else.
thequickandthedead
Member
Ah ok. Fair enough considering the relationship between 9S and 2B. But what need does a YorHa soldier have​ for emotion anyway? I assumed they would've​ been created without that capacity.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
If I remember correctly, YoRHa or the powers that be established through testing that emotions improved the androids' performance. They talk about it in the stageplay.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
As soon as he says anything to 2B, she'd be ordered to eliminate him. The subtext of what the commander says about 9S "choice" about what to do with the information is that so long as he plays along with the charade, he's all good.
The problem with 9S is he's simply too emotional to NOT react to the information.
Snakethesniper
Member
this is how I feel too. also, maybe it's not clear early that 2B needs to kill him, but the fact that the death of 9S is a cycle and that she act cold because of it it's implied
also there's the heavy teasing of the prize in the tower. you know it has to be the big reveal, the twins also tell you "hope you don't regret it". and when they give you the file it's the same file 2B already read if I'm not mistaken, since he already knows about the moon server. so why the reaction like it's something new to him?
Not even to the player thinking about the information that has been provided and how it fits with all that he or she has seen during the game? Of course it is building up to anything else, namely the implications of what that reveal means in regards to everything else that has happened and been said before that. Processing it takes time, but that doesn't dilute the value.
Then mention of the backdoor and its intended use was in the Black Box document that 9S acquired during the hack-heavy Soul Box. The small difference between the two document was that the one in the Black Box one talked about preparation and the latter one was basically a notification for immediate execution of the plan. But yes, that part didn't quite make sense in the gradual feed of info because it was clear that the protocol was executed, so the latter document was indeed meaningless. One would guess it was only supposed to be in the latter document but someone in the dev team 'effed up.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
the 2E -> 9S reveal is so deeply personal that I doubt if anything has ever been as effective to me, other than Steins;Gate
The 2E thing would have worked a lot better on me if A2 had mentioned that it had been going on for 3 years now, only 9S couldn't remember that.
Just cutting to a flashback of times toobs kills 9S because it was actually necessary (virus, killing themselves to destroy engels) rather than because she had orders from command after he learned something about Yorha only confused me and ruined the twist. I was left wondering how could those deaths possibly had been planned?
Also missed the sidequest at the point so you can understand how little sense it made.
Just cutting to a flashback of times toobs kills 9S because it was actually necessary (virus, killing themselves to destroy engels) rather than because she had orders from command after he learned something about Yorha only confused me and ruined the twist. I was left wondering how could those deaths possibly had been planned?
Also missed the sidequest at the point so you can understand how little sense it made.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
There are clues throughout the game that are very apparent on a replay. Its not just Amnesia, that's just the most obvious clue. YoRHa Betrayers, Retrieve the Confidential Intel (yeah "machines" killed that guy... honest) etc. All show how command handles problems within its own ranks.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
It doesn't dilute the value of the reveal, but it does dilute the impact of the moment.
To be clear, the reveal itself is great. I think it's the perfect bomb to drop at that moment given the shift from loredumps and a grandiose boss battle to the much more intimate showdown between 9S and A2.
My criticism is that the conflicting information provided undercuts the immediate impact of the reveal, and it doesn't come across as a deliberate stylistic decision. The reuse of erroneous cutscenes suggests that it was probably a time/money problem.
True it's just that Amnesia directly mentions the 2E units. Just goes to show that people should really play a lot of the side quests as without it, stuff like the 2E reveal is kinda like "oh so that's what's been up with her. Ok."
Exactly. Or throughout Route B maybe show just a couple of flashback type scenes where 9S is killed by her. The two scenes in the game don't really work that well for the reveal because he's being killed for reasons other than knowing too much. Well maybe in the ending he is because at that point he does know too much but it still isn't the only reason he's killed and he even asks for it.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I'm not sure why you need shock value added to something that was spelled out clearly. I wouldve just skipped the flashbacks altogether and kept the camera on 9S
That part is actually hilarious in that regard since 2B is killing a 9S who knows too much, but 2B doesn't know that he knows too much and he is being killed for completely different reasons instead.
I do agree with the thought that the cutscene feed of 9S' deaths during the course of the game is misleading since those deaths aren't related to 2Es executioner duties. The only part that is actually involved in the revelation in any way is the fact that 2B *can* kill the logic virus infected 9S, but needs 9S to hack her system to enable her to defend herself from the infected YoRHa during route C. It should have been a series of images of the past killings, or maybe one of those visual novel thingies, if you had to have some extra feed for the reveal in the first place.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Combining some of these ideas together, what they could have done is gotten rid of the clipshow altogether, and instead inserted something into 9S' novel segment in D-ending.
A wry, detached listing of times when 2B killed him would have been pretty appropriate, I think.
A wry, detached listing of times when 2B killed him would have been pretty appropriate, I think.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I didn't pay attention to the "clipshow" at all becausr I was thinking about the implications of past sidequests, why the Commander gave 9S the info (so 2B would have to kill him), how it explains 2B's past behavior, etc., so this entire conversation is flying over my head. I didn't even rememeber what "clipshow" you were all talking about.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
yea I pretty much forgot about the replay as well until it was brought up here. A2's line was enough for everything to click immediately and send me into reflection mode
That would just have people asking when that was supposed to have happened.
The point of the reveal isn't why 2B was killing him, it was the fact that she was killing him over and over. The emotional impact doesn't come from the reveal that 2B was working to coverup the human conspiracy, but that her whole existence was an endless cycle of murdering the person she cared most about. The flashbacks used are completely appropriate to the emotions 9S is feeling at that time.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Wait, that's what people are talking about?
It's meant to get you to think about 2B's words and attitude during those segments, which make a lot more sense when you consider the twist. Having a hacky thing like showing you "new" scenes of 9S being killed in the past would undermine the twist and distract from how it changes so much of the past dynamics.
It's meant to get you to think about 2B's words and attitude during those segments, which make a lot more sense when you consider the twist. Having a hacky thing like showing you "new" scenes of 9S being killed in the past would undermine the twist and distract from how it changes so much of the past dynamics.
Thank you, I feel less insane now that I'm not alone.
This is true as well. It just shows that people have very different ways of receiving and processing information. It really sinks in in vastly different ways for different people. As demonstrated by the discussion, some people focused on different aspects of the scenes and thus weren't lead to the same paths.
TriForce Hero
Member
Wow what a Ride. Finish the [E]nding and deleted my save. Other people needs that light of hope after the hellbullet.
Truly a nice game, normaly I unistall games after I finished... but I'll keep in my PC for another revisit in the future.
2A is underused, but I loved her personality after playing with her. 2B - 9S Story is nice in loop of destiny. 2B opening statement gets a new light after the ending.
I felt like I was watching Matrix 1999 all over again
Truly a nice game, normaly I unistall games after I finished... but I'll keep in my PC for another revisit in the future.
2A is underused, but I loved her personality after playing with her. 2B - 9S Story is nice in loop of destiny. 2B opening statement gets a new light after the ending.
I felt like I was watching Matrix 1999 all over again
Yeah, actually spelling it out would completely ruin the foreshadowing all over the place.
Veritigo_X
Member
The moon server with human DNA and history is actually real, right? I'm thinking about if there's any hope for humanity (via cloning or something) or if they are truly gone for good. It would be cool if the androids became "gods" to reborn humans similar to how androids view humans as sort of gods.
There is DNA data on the moon, but if it's replicant stuff I'm not sure there's much they can do without any gestalts.
Snakethesniper
Member
I don't if it's a bug because I just looked at the reports:
http://imgur.com/a/cSPNB
they say the same thing, but with different words. So it's not the same file mistakenly added to the black box one
http://imgur.com/a/cSPNB
they say the same thing, but with different words. So it's not the same file mistakenly added to the black box one
Yeah, actually the difference is pretty big between abandoning bunker and having it disposed of by having it being attacked by machines.
Snakethesniper
Member
Well the point is that it talks about the bunkers, not the units xD
One thing I'm missing is in the ending with A2 that touches that stream. Is that all the informations that was supposed to be sent? And she destroy it?
ShadowSoldier89
Member
where are each of those documents from? One was after the Red Girls send an attack squad, but where was the other one? I though A2 got one of them
EDIT: second was in soul box locked chest?
EDIT: second was in soul box locked chest?
Veritigo_X
Member
I assumed the replicants and the human DNA were separated things (since replicants weren't really human), but I think we only hear about the human DNA from the commander so maybe she was in the dark about what was actually on the moon.
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