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[Raide]

Curious about something. Would a game budget be different if you are shooting for 30fps compared to 60fps? If so perhaps that's why? If they don't feel something needs to be 60fps why put in the extra money and man power when 30fps is good enough for what is being shown? Could that be the thinking taking place?

I think its the resolution/other graphical effects they are aiming for alters the budget, since the more they go into HD they need to produce assets that match that.

Seems to me it's more about development cost than technical approach (with NSMBU at least). They have talked a lot in the past about the cost of HD development and how they were trying to lower it.

Its Nintendo. Are they really strapped for cash that they have to make a budget Mario game? Its probably the same engine from the first New Super Mario Bros so the engine is sorted, so how much would it really cost for that?

 

[shinobi602]

They couldn't even get NSMBU to run at 1080p? Doesn't look like a demanding game...

Wtf...

 

[Log4Girlz]

They couldn't even get NSMBU to run at 1080p? Doesn't look like a demanding game...

Wtf...

Count your blessings that they even bothered with 720 p

 

[dk_]

1080p /60 FPS or bust. It's 2012!

 

[LCGeek]

How can NSMB Wii U NOT be 1080p 60fps?

Cause nintendo didn't bother to implement this. That simple. If you want a deeper why ask them but expect the same wall on this subject you typically get already.

 

[shinobi602]

Count your blessings that they even bothered with 720 p

No, I won't. Just because it's Nintendo doesn't mean to just jump for joy automatically. It's still bullshit. Come on it's 2012. Not even a 1080p sidescroller lol?

 

[BlueMagic]

Its Nintendo. Are they really strapped for cash that they have to make a budget Mario game? Its probably the same engine from the first New Super Mario Bros so the engine is sorted, so how much would it really cost for that?

Not about that either but about the profit they will make with 720p vs the profit they would make with 1080p. I'm guessing a lot of people (like people who owned the Wii and NSMB), will buy the game anyway. In general, it's not a dealbreaker that the game is 1080p.
But I guess we can all agree (can we?) that the wii u could handle 1080p in a game like this. Not sure about Pikmin, but when the Wii U is running something like AC3 at the same level that PS360 are, then it's really feasible that they could output 1080p for this. I mean, Rayman Origins run at 1080p in the other consoles and (probably) doesn't even have framedrops.

 

[Log4Girlz]

No, I won't. Just because it's Nintendo doesn't mean to just jump for joy automatically. It's still bullshit. Come on it's 2012. Not even a 1080p sidescroller lol?

For some reason I get the weird feeling that they didn't want such an abrupt change going from 1080 on the screen to a dramatically lower resolution on the tablet if someone chose to play on it, so they would rather keep the resolution similar. :/

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Here i thought the most important aspect of a game is how it feels to play.

Apparently, it's all about resolution numbers.

Well, sure, the most important aspect of a game is generally how it plays. However, whether it's worth geeking out about or not, technology is important. At the hardware level, it's always beneficial to remove limitations to achieving the designer's vision.

To illustrate that point in a manner you might find somewhat disingenuous, I will rhetorically ask if all this tech mumbo jumbo doesn't matter, why not just release Pikmin 3 on the NES and call it a day? Why do we release new hardware?

720p native isn't even a standard this gen, and people were expecting Nintendo to jump all the way to 1080p native. Please, keep moving the goalposts.

Those systems came out in 2005 and 2006.

 

[Van Owen]

Those systems came out in 2005 and 2006.

And they're more or less as powerful as Wii U.

 

[ElFly]

Curious about something. Would a game budget be different if you are shooting for 30fps compared to 60fps? If so perhaps that's why? If they don't feel something needs to be 60fps why put in the extra money and man power when 30fps is good enough for what is being shown? Could that be the thinking taking place?

Well normally a game running at 60fps will have less graphical effects to compensate, but they will normally need better animation, and for motion capture that may be costly, and also it may be a bigger drain into your programmers trying to extract more of the console than normal.

But then again, Nintendo games are 60fps more often than not.

 

[KageMaru]

Lots. But not "most", that's factually incorrect.

It's nice to see actual comprehension on GAF from time to time. =p

 

[FyreWulff]

Well, sure, the most important aspect of a game is generally how it plays. However, whether it's worth geeking out about or not, technology is important. At the hardware level, it's always beneficial to remove limitations to achieving the designer's vision.

To illustrate that point in a manner you might find somewhat disingenuous, I will rhetorically ask if all this tech mumbo jumbo doesn't matter, why not just release Pikmin 3 on the NES and call it a day? Why do we release new hardware?



Those systems came out in 2005 and 2006.

Those systems have enough EDRAM to do 720p. Developers want actual bells and whistles like HDR and so on, which either incurs dropping the resolution to fit everything in or tiling. And people like to avoid tiling. Nintendo is probably seeing CoD do record sales at 600p and realize that the general public isn't much into pixel counting.

 

[LCGeek]

Those systems have enough EDRAM to do 720p. Developers want actual bells and whistles like HDR and so on, which either incurs dropping the resolution to fit everything in or tiling. And people like to avoid tiling. Nintendo is probably seeing CoD do record sales at 600p and realize that the general public isn't much into pixel counting.

Never has never will. Most tech topics here show the same sentiments. I love high end but we are such a small niche we are lucky to get the support we do.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Those systems have enough EDRAM to do 720p. Developers want actual bells and whistles like HDR and so on, which either incurs dropping the resolution to fit everything in or tiling. And people like to avoid tiling. Nintendo is probably seeing CoD do record sales at 600p and realize that the general public isn't much into pixel counting.

So, what's the argument here? Rather than expect anything even vaguely representing a generational leap, we should just applaud Nintendo's pragmatism?

Maybe just anticipating that 1080p would be the new standard that every game ever had to run at would be a little unrealistic. However, I do think it's worth noting that -- in particular when you're talking about games like Pikmin and New Super Mario Bros. -- 1080p is not some mythical, unattainable dream.

"1080p? For a console!? Poppycock! You only see resolutions like that on a PC owned by the five richest kings of Europe."

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

My 720p TV is fine with this.
I couldn't give two shits about 1080p.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I thought all along that Pikmin 3 was never in full production for the Wii. I was really surprised to see that it was far enough along that they ended up keeping Wiimote controls in.

As far as the graphics go though I fully expect to see big improvements when the game is released compared to its current state . Nintendo changes its focus to the visual side of the game at the end of the development process. AA will be there and I expect the texture quality will be improved as well.

 

[LCGeek]

So, what's the argument here? Rather than expect anything even vaguely representing a generational leap, we should just applaud Nintendo's pragmatism?

More like we know what they want to do with their products expecting them to provide the most just isn't in the cards. I'm simply on the fence wondering why people expect more and seeing over the past few years that certain things aren't going to change.

No you shouldn't applaud nintendo's pragmatism reward companies who actually serve your interest as a gamer. I put up with nintendo at this point but if there was nothing there I'd drop them like a bad habit.

 

[LCGeek]

I thought all along that Pikmin 3 was never in full production for the Wii. I was really surprised to see that it was far enough along that they ended up keeping Wiimote controls in.

As far as the graphics go though I fully expect to see big improvements compared to its current state when the game is released. Nintendo changes its focus to the visual side of the game at the end of the development process. AA will be there and I expect the texture quality will be improved as well.

Texture quality needs more consistency but as other users pointed out the reflections need to be the same in gameplay that we have seen at other parts running in realtime that look good. I'd rather them spend a little more poly power on the models if this system HD twin level they can spend a couple more time on models than using low res GC based assets. Don't see how this company can have retro on under the help but not learn a little in showmanship from them.

 

[Durante]

Curious about something. Would a game budget be different if you are shooting for 30fps compared to 60fps? If so perhaps that's why? If they don't feel something needs to be 60fps why put in the extra money and man power when 30fps is good enough for what is being shown? Could that be the thinking taking place?

Not really. Well, maybe it would be cheaper to design a game for 60 than for 30 FPS, since you need to cut back on asset detail.

 

[EternalGamer]

Man, Nintendo fans are sure gonna have sore asses.

Between being all butthurt at internet criticism and the amount Nintendo seems eager to fuck them, they arent going to be able to sit for years.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

One question only, who is this "Nintendo rep" we are talking about?

Im not saying his lying, but the AA thing, if P-100 is 720 its actually using AA because there are no jaggies to be seen.
Pikmin has some amount of jaggies, but not much.
Lego Cities is another story, is a fucking jaggie screentearing fest, its the worse looking game of the launch (launch window) catalog.

 

[mbmonk]

I was wondering about what resolution Nintendo would support. I think how close the person sits to their display/TV is a big factor on 720 vs 1080, etc.

With a PC you might literally be sitting 2 feet from the screen. It's easier to notice all the graphical improvements that 1080p+ gives you. If you are sitting 6+ feet away and depending on the size of the display ( 22" vs 60") supposedly most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p.

If true, it seems like 720 is a good decision if you plan on people playing on the TV from the couch. I am not sure what the resolution of the display on the WiiU pad is. Maybe it's a bad decision for that. I am not sure.

 

[Raide]

I was wondering about what resolution Nintendo would support. I think how close the person sits to their display/TV is a big factor on 720 vs 1080, etc.

With a PC you might literally be sitting 2 feet from the screen. It's easier to notice all the graphical improvements that 1080p+ gives you. If you are sitting 6+ feet away and depending on the size of the display ( 22" vs 60") supposedly most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p.

If true, it seems like 720 is a good decision if you plan on people playing on the TV from the couch. I am not sure what the resolution of the display on the WiiU pad is. Maybe it's a bad decision for that. I am not sure.

I would rather have 1080p if they are planning split screen games. Mario Kart U is going to have splitscreen, so I would rather they have it as big as possible so each square gets as much details as they can.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Man, Nintendo fans are sure gonna have sore asses.

Between being all butthurt at internet criticism and the amount Nintendo seems eager to fuck them, they arent going to be able to sit for years.

Who cares about the specs in the end. Wii delivered games like galaxy 1 and 2 that were better than 99% of HD games out there.

I'm pissed off by the complete lack of creativity from Nintendo though. Mario, Pikmin, WiiFit are sequels. Nintendoland is just random crap. WTF.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

Not really. Well, maybe it would be cheaper to design a game for 60 than for 30 FPS, since you need to cut back on asset detail.

Which they already did. That's the odd part. I don't see how the games they showed could look any worse. Except Pikmin, which didn't look good but at least looked passable. The Wii U should be blazing these games on the screen.

 

[Ydahs]

I wonder if NSMBU is using the same (though obviously modified) engine that was used in NSMBWii? I mean, exactly a year ago, all we saw at E3 was a NSMBMii, a tech demo using Wii assets.

Would they have had the time to create an engine from scratch which can output 1080p efficiently, properly utilising the added RAM, more powerful GPU and multi-cored CPU? If you get a game engine, designed to efficiently run on 10 year old hardware, it won't translate well on modern architecture without some major, major modifications. Hopefully that's the case, because there are only two reasons I can think of as to why it's 720p: they decided it be 720p for some obscure Nintendo reason not related to hardware or the game is built on a modified engine designed for ancient hardware and they've hit a bottleneck somewhere. I guess the same can be said for Pikmin too.

It's clearly not a hardware issue. Rayman Legend has been mentioned to be running at 1080p, 60fps on WiiU, so it's disappointing Nintendo themselves can't manage 1080p on launch.

Though I guess that's another reason. Ubisoft has been working with HD hardware for the better part of 6 years now and have had the time to mature their engines. PS360 games have come a long way, with developers learning how to use architecture and getting the most out of the hardware. Hopefully with later WiiU games, the simpler Nintendo titles will be outputting at 1080p. Heck, hopefully EAD Tokyo and Retro can wow us again with stunning games running at a minimum of 720p/60fps. I'd say 1080p, but I doubt they can manage that it as 60fps

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

Man, Nintendo fans are sure gonna have sore asses.

Between being all butthurt at internet criticism and the amount Nintendo seems eager to fuck them, they arent going to be able to sit for years.

I have no idea what you're going on about.

 

[Effect]

They couldn't even get NSMBU to run at 1080p? Doesn't look like a demanding game...

Wtf...

I don't think it's that at all. Nintendo is capable of a lot when it comes to games. Look at what they did on the Wii. I think it's more of a case of they simply didn't want to or felt it wasn't needed. Not that they simply were incapable of it.

 

[goldenpp72]

Pretty crap considering mario looks like shit for an HD title, they could at least max out the resolution on the 2d platformers.

Didn't rayman origins run at 1080p -_-

 

[Raide]

I don't think it's that at all. Nintendo is capable of a lot when it comes to games. Look at what they did on the Wii. I think it's more of a case of they simply didn't want to or felt it wasn't needed. Not that they simply were incapable of it.

If they felt it was not needed, why even bring out a new console? They wanted to jump into HD, so they also have to jump into the increased time and cost of HD development. Just up-ressing Wii games might cut it for die-hard Nintendo fans but everyone else is left pretty puzzled at Nintendo's choices.

 

[jett]

Seeing the "oh people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p anyway!" mantra is kind of hilarious and ridiculous in a really sad way, it's like going back in time to 2006. The difference is there, and it's not small.

So what if they're not? Most 360/ps3 aren't even 720p.

This is all beside the point as well. First question should be whether the game is good. Not what's its native resolution/will it upscale.

It's been said before, but it must be said again. This is a really big misconception. Of the 25-30 PS3 games I own, only 2 are sub-HD(MGS4 and Vanquish). I have more games that run at 1080p.

 

[kfpkiller]

If games as simple as NSMB or Nintendoland are only 720p I can't imagine what complex 3d games will be.

 

[zruben]

people are over-dramatizing this. They are just E3 demos, too early to judge.

it's the same for every console ever created... the first games have technical limitations. they will sort this out.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

people are over-dramatizing this. They are just E3 demos, too early to judge.

it's the same for every console ever created... the first games have technical limitations. they will sort this out.

These games are coming out in six months.

 

[mrklaw]

I'd take 1080p/30 over 720p/60 for most games. Fillrate is about equivalent

 

[zruben]

These games are coming out in six months.

I'm sorry to repeat myself, but that doesn't change the fact that the e3 demos were unfinished versions.

and neither change the fact that with every console, the first generation of games don't really use the maximum potential of the console.

 

[Lord Ghirahim]

Man, Nintendo fans are sure gonna have sore asses.

Between being all butthurt at internet criticism and the amount Nintendo seems eager to fuck them, they arent going to be able to sit for years.

Is this the gaming rape culture that's been all the rage lately?

 

[Ydahs]

Seeing the "oh people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p anyway!" mantra is kind of hilarious and ridiculous in a really sad way, it's like going back in time to 2006. The difference is there, and it's not small.



It's been said before, but it must be said again. This is a really big misconception. Of the 25-30 PS3 games I own, only 2 are sub-HD(MGS4 and Vanquish). I have more games that run at 1080p.

Anecdotally, even gamers do tend to struggle telling the difference between 720p and 1080p, especially with anti-aliasing in play. If you don't tell them a game is running at sub 720p, they wouldn't even be likely to notice it. It's person by person, but when you're sitting a few metres away from a 42" TV, the difference isn't really that big, especially since one doesn't have something to compare it with.

Even though you, I and many others will notice a difference, your average gamer won't.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'm sorry to repeat myself, but that doesn't change the fact that the e3 demos were unfinished versions.

Sure, but at this stage in the game, that's a pretty good representation of what the final product will look like. There's no reason to believe that in the next six months, they're tinkering with updating the resolution.

and neither change the fact that with every console, the first generation of games don't really use the maximum potential of the console.

That's true. However, the original Wii aside, most people anticipate that with new hardware comes more impressive visuals. You can understand why games that aren't demonstrating anything even remotely cutting edge while simultaneously settling on the minimum-accepted resolution for HD is a bit disappointing.

To move away for a second to specifically addressing you, I can understand that not everyone will find this news distressing, and that's cool with me. I'm never going to be the type of person who browbeats people into thinking that specs and benchmarks are more important in this hobby than simply having fun.

However, if you are the type of person who cares about specs and benchmarks, I simply cannot fathom why this seems like good news, or is even passable by tech geek standards. You don't have to care about those standards, but if you do, this should be somewhat disconcerting.

 

[Josh7289]

Hmm... Strange. You'd think at least NSMBU could run well at 1080p, since it doesn't appear to be too graphically demanding.

But as long as it's 60 fps, even if that means it has to run at 720p, that's what matters the most. They didn't say it won't run at 60 fps, and Nintendo has in the past touted the advantages of 60 fps, so I'm holding out hope here.

 

[ScepticMatt]

So far it looks like WiiU will be the "Wii" of the next generation IMHO.
Doesn't matter to me though because they didn't show enough games that could interest me anyhow.

 

[mugurumakensei]

I'd take 1080p/30 over 720p/60 for most games. Fillrate is about equivalent

You're forgetting part of the fillrate has to be devoted to the tablet. Odds are the touchscreen is designed to work optimally at 60fps.

 

[SpokkX]

I'd take 1080p/30 over 720p/60 for most games. Fillrate is about equivalent

What? Framerate > everything when it comes to games

Why? Makes them CONTROL and PLAY better. Higher res is important when using pc programs etc

This news is good imo, that Nintendo seems to premier framerate

 

[AstroNut325]

to be fair, TRUE 720p as a baseline would be a big step up from this gen.

So what if they're not? Most 360/ps3 aren't even 720p.

This is all beside the point as well. First question should be whether the game is good. Not what's its native resolution/will it upscale.

No it is not. Please educate yourselves before spouting misinformation to blindly defend your holy gaming gods at Nintendo.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I'm wondering if there might perhaps be a cultural component to Nintendo's decision not to put their games in 1080p when their hardware should be more than capable to do so - even in 60fps as most of the games are upgraded Wii games ffs.

Maybe there's something in Japanese culture that might explain this, perhaps a reluctance to put something in a product that most people will not use? (as 720p is pretty much the standard atm, with the public not caring as much about 1080p).

 

[SS4Gogita]

No it is not. Please educate yourselves before spouting misinformation to blindly defend your holy gaming gods at Nintendo.

Even if not the majority, there are definitely a lot of games on that list that aren't 720p, and even a lot of the ones that are list no AA. The WiiU definitely should be able to have a target of 720p and some form of AA minimum.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Hmm... Strange. You'd think at least NSMBU could run well at 1080p, since it doesn't appear to be too graphically demanding.

But as long as it's 60 fps, even if that means it has to run at 720p, that's what matters the most. They didn't say it won't run at 60 fps, and Nintendo has in the past touted the advantages of 60 fps, so I'm holding out hope here.

Again, it does. The live broadcast of the show on Spike was very evidently 60FPS.

I'm more concerned about NSMB2, honestly. That video was only 30. I know most 3D 3DS games are only 30, but c'mon, this is New Super Mario Bros, which is by-and-large a 2D game. If Mario Kart 7 could be 60, surely NSMB2 could too.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

my 720p plasma is saved!

 

[KageMaru]

Even if not the majority, there are definitely a lot of games on that list that aren't 720p, and even a lot of the ones that are list no AA. The WiiU definitely should be able to have a target of 720p and some form of AA minimum.

There may be a lot on the list that are under 720p, but compared to the complete catalog of games on either system, I don't even think "a lot" is accurate.

AA is another issue, though it seems like they are solving that issue through PPAA. I expect similar methods to be used on the Wii-U as well.