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Noble Suicide in Blockbuster Film

#Phonepunk#

Banned
(Warning Spoilers for Endgame and Rogue One and Last Jedi)

With all the discussion of media radicalizing people and causing violence, I started to wonder why people were singling out video games. Yes, violence and mass murder is a component of many games, but it is a component of all media.

More disturbing by far in my opinion is the use of the Noble Suicide in popular film. True this has long been a trope, the heroic sacrifice, yet it has never been glorified quit like it is now. In so many films that are so popular and sold to such a wide audience. In general I find the messages delivered by modern mainstream film to be pro-violence, pro-idology, pro-suicide, disturbing in a number of ways:

For starters there is the most best selling film of all time, Avengers Endgame. This movie begins with the death of trillions of living beings across the universe as a backdrop. Our heroes have lost and failed, yet they find Thanos and violently kill him, despite there being no reason to do so, other than pure bloodlust.

Later they set off to travel through time, undoing all death in the universe (thus making death a meaningless and reversible thing for the audience), yet they must sacrifice someone they love to do so. This absurd bit of lore demands "you sacrifice that which you most love" which gives the genocidal villain at the heart of the story a great "deep" character moment in the previous film, as he momentarily, dramatically pauses before (tragially?) killing his own daughter. Here we have Black Widow and Hawkeye decide that they will each kill themselves, for the good of the universe, in order to save the day. This doesn't make too much sense because neither has spent much time in the 22 movies having a convincingly deep relationship, but I buy it for the contrivance of the present plot. We are treated to a silly scene where they fight one another, like children, on their way racing to the cliff.

In the end Black Widow, the lone woman Avenger, not really treated that well over the course of her series and the previous decade of films, does the best thing she has ever done: she kills herself. Her suicide is glorious, it is sexy, for it is not depicted realistically. She plummets off a cliff and lands hundreds of feet below yet is not splattered everywhere, her taut body still fine in that black leather catsuit, face-up so we can see her pretty face, the face of a dead woman who committed suicide. What a wonderful family film! Thank god this is the money money making movie even, right? Noble Suicide.

Then we can talk about Star Wars. Rogue One, of course, a film based on a team that we all know will die at the end. Actually do we even know that? They could have escaped, I guess. Oh well, it is more poignant that way, hugging your story convenient love interest as a giant explosion washes over you. But they knew what they were getting into, they knew it was a Noble Suicide. The Last Jedi is positively obsessed with the Noble Suicide. The last film showed us an entire star system getting destroyed, yet apparently nobody wants to help fight against this threat. The only thing that inspired people is Luke's stunt on Crait facing down the guy that oversaw said previous polyglobal genocide only yesterday. Luke shows up and taunts him with extremist ideology like "The war will never die" before fading away and dying. It is meant to be a heroic act, we see kids playing pretend Old Man Ghost Who Dies (i guess), another Noble Suicide.

Holdo, just minutes earlier, made "the most beautiful scene in any SW movie ever made" with her Noble Suicide. Which wasn't entirely a suicide, as she rammed her ship into the ship that all our heroes were on as well. They could have died, I guess, but her aim was really, really good, so all of them survived, and it was only bad guys who died. Pretty cool how that worked out. See kids? This is how a Noble Suicide works.

Let's not forget that the film starts with a Noble Suicide, with Rose's sister, the bomber girl, filmed in glamorizing slow motion, with a single tear falling. To some degree I feel like the casting was a deft decision here, normalizing it through invoking the Kamikaze Bomber trope. Ironically if Leia had overridden Poe's spur of the moment order, and gone with the original plan, the bombers would have flown back, her life would have been saved. Ah, but then we wouldn't have Poe's great character arc. These people need to die for that to happen. Noble Suicide!
 
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Thaedolus

Member
Heroic sacrifice is glorified everywhere though. War memorials are not a recent thing and holidays commemorating the dead aren't new. Christianity is centered around it. I don't think this is about radicalization or is from anything more than the virtue of selflessness when every instinct is telling you to choose survival.
 

Tesseract

Banned
it's an archetypal ultimate suffering thing, willful sacrifices on the side of 'good' are easy to digest even if the consumer doesn't know why

it's primitive and emotional but it's also intuitive and transcendental

it's what makes captain america such a powerful unconditional hero, he sacrifices everything to bring significant order to the future (the greatest generation summed up in a nutshell imo)

none of this is matter of fact, just what i've gleamed
 
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Independence Day has the best noble suicide.

Independence Day: Resurgence has... Well, it's far from the worst, it's just kind of weird. Leads to a good final battle though.
 
There's a difference between stupid and pointless noble sacrifice like in The Last Jedi and one that was set up a long time ago through comics and movies and whatnot. When the media forces this, it sucks but in Endgame's case I do not feel like it was forced at all. Hell everyone knew someone was going to sacrifice themselves for the greater good a long time ago and it still felt sad and great at the same time.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Christianity is centered around it.
well yeah i mean it is an old trope. Christianity is in many ways the original Mass IP. literally, they had Mass (lol). back in medieval times, before the printing press, before movable type, before democratic access to information, the Catholic church held together the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire through this Corporate Brand. churches carried Bibles, with texts, paintings, stainglass windows, depicting scenes from the lore, all over Europe, and elsewhere. the Roman Empire had a number of early dalliances with Christianity and Coptic graffiti can be seen in Egypt, painted on top of the old gods. this is one way in which cultures mix.

coptic_christian_graffiti_by_pegacorn_master_d4kf9iq-fullview.jpg


however, those were human stories, by and about people that lived in very revolutionary times. they are are lessons to be learned, morals to be had, ethical teachings, philosophy, history, all stemming from Christian literature and scholarship. these characters are a recent corporate brand, purchased for profit, with roadmaps of unending texts being created for profit. the texts of Christianty and the world religions are set. they are collections of lore and culture. you can go back and study the various translations and commentary, but it is already written, they aren't just pumping out stuff endlessly.

the pop things on the other hand are consumer products, designed to be disposable. totally different, tho i do agree that the pop trash has simply replaced the place of religion for many people. think of the time spent, agonizing and arguing with peers over canon & lore, celebrating & referencing famous moments, evangelizing for favorite characters, indulginh in fan fic and LARPing, pigrimages to holy sites and mass conventions with millions of True Believers, cosplaying as heroes and saying their catch phrases (bhakti, as the practice was called thousands of years ago in India, where gods were emulated in all their varying costumes & styles (mischievous cosmic baby Krishna stealing butter, sexy cowgirl seducing flute player Krishna, Bhagavad Gita warrior Krisna, etc.)). all the behaviors we associate with nerd "consumer" culture that is supposedly nihilist and doesn't believe in anything are similar to those of religious fanatics. fans are devotees. it is merely that the culture the masses celebrate is inherently pro-destruction. it is consumerist. consumerism is a destructive ideology. we must consume to survive, and consuming is death.

Independence Day has the best noble suicide.
that one is good, i guess. but the thing is Randy Quaid is kind of a joke the whole movie, nobody believes him, even his kids think he is a joke. the only good thing he does is kill himself. that's kinda dark. it was a great scene tho, he even went out with a joke. then again the whole thing bout ID4 was "it's a joke" it was a weird hyper patriot pre 9/11 terror fantasy. tbh i think there is a difference wrt post-9/11 media.
 
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sevoro

Member
People love to root for a guy who sacrifices himself. I wouldn't call it pro-suicide, I'd call it pro-suicide-with-a-purpose-other-than-the-self.

I say this as a diagnosed suicidal person, if it gives my claim any meaning.
 

mcz117chief

Member
You make a great point, OP. The deaths you mention have had no impact on me and do feel completely flat and cheap.

From the top of my head, one of my favorite actual sacrifices in a movie is in the first Sin City: "An old man dies, a young woman lives...fair trade."
 
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quickwhips

Member
Heroic sacrifice has always been a thing. And hawkeye black widow relationship is talked about constantly in the avengers movies. Also thought black widow had some amazing scenes in winter soldier. I agree iron man 2 was a little weak.

If you go back and watch movies like all dogs go to heaven or disney cartoons characters always make the sacrifice but some get to come back. So this heroic suicide isnt new or different from 20 years ago.
 

Doom85

Member
I could have swore either you or someone else made pretty much this exact topic a while back. I already explained back then why I don't agree that this should be considered "suicide", don't really feel like going over it all over again.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
If you go back and watch movies like all dogs go to heaven or disney cartoons characters always make the sacrifice but some get to come back. So this heroic suicide isnt new or different from 20 years ago.
nah, i think it is new. certainly in scope and kind. these aren't just little movies, these are massive blockbusters. these aren't side characters, these are the main stars. people still call Star Wars "just kids movies". you should have provided some specific examples, i don't really even know what you are referring to.

there is a difference between dying tragically trying to save someone, which happens all the time. or being killed by the bad guys. Holdo Jesus didn't commit suicide, he was executed as a prisoner of the state. if you can't tell the difference then this topic is probably not for you.

did the Ghostbusters or ET or the Goonies ever flirt with suicide? any of the Scooby Doo gang ever kill themselves? this wasn't in any of the 80s Superman movies either. don't think anyone does it in Jaws. or Labyrinth. or A Christmas Story. or The Karate Kid. these are the blockbusters from my youth i'm familiar with. the new ones are a lot more cynical and depressing.
 
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BigBooper

Member
nah, i think it is new. certainly in scope and kind. these aren't just little movies, these are massive blockbusters. these aren't side characters, these are the main stars. people still call Star Wars "just kids movies". you should have provided some specific examples, i don't really even know what you are referring to.

there is a difference between dying tragically trying to save someone, which happens all the time. or being killed by the bad guys. Holdo Jesus didn't commit suicide, he was executed as a prisoner of the state. if you can't tell the difference then this topic is probably not for you.

did the Ghostbusters or ET or the Goonies ever flirt with suicide? any of the Scooby Doo gang ever kill themselves? this wasn't in any of the 80s Superman movies either. don't think anyone does it in Jaws. or Labyrinth. or A Christmas Story. or The Karate Kid. these are the blockbusters from my youth i'm familiar with. the new ones are a lot more cynical and depressing.
The movies you mentioned are more for kids. There were certainly tons of blockbuster movies that had heroic suicide, and not just grown up movies. Off the top of my head The Neverending Story, Terminator, Gremlins. There were a ton more war and suspense movies from decades earlier that featured it. Even old kid's stories and movies like Tom Sawyer has that subject in them.
 

Spaceman292

Banned
Yep heroes sacrifice has been around forever. If you're looking for a depiction of suicide which is actually damaging and poorly handled then watch 13 Reasons Why.
 
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