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[BreezyLimbo]

Here's some food for thought for the "anti-PC", "don't censor my games", "it's just titties, are you prude or what", etc. crowd here. While Quiet is decried by evil "SJWs" and co., Bayonetta isn't nearly as much despite being a lot more overtly sexualised. Why would that be?

EDIT: Also, what's up with the word "offended" being used in about half of the posts? Do people not know what that word means anymore, or is it just a weak attempt at destroying the credibility of opposing viewpoints?

Im pretty sure arguments have been made against Bayonetta and how the camera focuses on her titillation like Quiet. Its just that....her games have sold a % of MGSV.

Ask anybody writing thinkpieces on gender in games if they're familiar with Bayonetta.

They are.

I think the point is that criticizing something thats better known is easier than a niche title. Like, you never see people criticize the niche small release anime games that perpetuate over Japan..

 

[Spring-Loaded]

No matter how many times I explain "the context and treatment of female characters within the game is what is bad, not the mere existence of a bikini" no one seems to understand or listen, so I won't further the discussion here. I give up.

Isn't it mostly new people entering the thread who haven't read anything in the thread yet? You're surely getting through to people.

Its just that....her games have sold a % of MGSV.

Nah

 

[DrunkDan]

Can you imagine if the gender roles were completely swapped about this situation.

Imagine what it would be like if groups of women on the internet were judging the camera angles on a sexualized male character, which were doing a lingering focus on the underside of his pectorals or thighs, and how it's just the most embarrassing character they've ever seen, and actually worse than porn, because at least then they would know what they were getting into, but the idea of such a character showing up in mature rated entertainment is simply too inappropriate. Meanwhile other women are saying 'What exactly is the big deal? I think he's an attractive and strong character.. Not hiding any sexiness, but I like him'.

Suddenly the idea seems deflated.

I too would like to know if this outrage is carried on more by men or women.
Seems like a bunch of guys are overly worried, with most women just shrugging it off.

I could be wrong, but that's the impression I perceive here. Most of us are men, right? Any women in this thread?

It would be interesting to know anyway.

Judging by this thread (and other similar ones) it's mainly men discussing how wrong it is. It kind of ties into my previous posts in here about people fighting the battle because they feel they should. And in terms of your post it always seems one sided. Films like magic mike aren't met with the same discussion because society is seemingly okay with men being objectified (or not even seeing it as objectification?).

Are people arguing the case because it means nobody takes their hobby seriously? I don't know. Seems much like people voicing their opinions on someone else's behalf. Like, I'm seeing something that may offend someone (not myself) so I should speak up for them sort of thing.

Everybody wants equality going forward so I understand why people speak up, that's not what I'm disagreeing with. I'm saying that people are nowhere near as offended or embarrassed as they make out when this type of discussion comes up. Perhaps as others have mentioned previously, to raise awareness to things you need to go over the top in being vocal to ensure you're heard?

 

[Crossing Eden]

If the ladies want to perv on some fan servicey male, then all the more power to them.

I'd think it was hilarious, and a great change in the norm of things.

This thread by and large though... that's the real embarassment. Basically a bunch of people trying to convince everyone else that the character is vile embarassing, evil shit that shouldn't be tolerated in this day and age.

I can get that some people won't like it... but the whole moral crusade to normalize that opinion is to me pretty fucking gross.

We should really normalize the opinion that sexualizing a women with a voyeur cam during torture and rape scenes is not ok. In fact, I'd argue that that is a normalized opinion and can't fathom how people can view those scenes as "ok." Or how a guy who previously created not one but two successful femme fatales in the same game can stoop that low. Or the flimsy as hell excuses that get brought up time and time again to the point where it can be made into a bingo board. For instance you think it's a coincidence that so many people feel the need to mention their wives and/or f-e-m-a-l-e friends not minding it? As if that's validation.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

If the ladies want to perv on some fan servicey male, then all the more power to them.

I'd think it was hilarious, and a great change in the norm of things.

This thread by and large though... that's the real embarassment. Basically a bunch of people trying to convince everyone else that the character is vile embarassing, evil shit that shouldn't be tolerated in this day and age.

I can get that some people won't like it... but the whole moral crusade to normalize that opinion is to me pretty fucking gross.

Why are some people bent on turning this into some "sex-positive, progressive" white-Knighting campaign? The issue isn't objectified or sexualized characters. It's the cringey "holier than thou" execution. If you're gonna give me hammed up sex objects that's all fine and well. But don't shoehorn some fake emotional integrity into that character when it's very evident what she's supposed to be. Especially when it's in a janky mess of a story like V's.

 

[Polioliolio]

There is an option to change it. I wasn't offended by her in the slightest but I liked her other costumes more.

To be fair, this point is moot, because it's the last costume you unlock.

 

[Karkador]

I too would like to know if this outrage is carried on more by men or women.
Seems like a bunch of guys are overly worried, with most women just shrugging it off.

I could be wrong, but that's the impression I perceive here. Most of us are men, right? Any women in this thread?

It would be interesting to know anyway.

Women on NeoGAF are tired of trying to explain basic things about their lives to morons. Don't take their silence as quietly agreeing with you.

 

[Zaptruder]

Here's some food for thought for the "anti-PC", "don't censor my games", "it's just titties, are you prude or what", etc. crowd here. While Quiet is decried by evil "SJWs" and co., Bayonetta isn't nearly as much despite being a lot more overtly sexualised. Why would that be?

EDIT: Also, what's up with the word "offended" being used in about half of the posts? Do people not know what that word means anymore, or is it just a weak attempt at destroying the credibility of opposing viewpoints?

My best guess: Because Kojima's messaging about the obvious fan service nature of Quiet drew the ire of this crowd.

Like, if the character had been left untouched - but the PR messaging over quiet was simply - yes, we prepared a strong fan service character, we hope you enjoy it!

I doubt there'd be as much uproar over the character.

And sure, I can get that overall context (including Kojima's PR on her) might set people off about it - but that's not taking an objective stance on the character itself. If you'd come into this game knowing nothing about it... yeah, you'd see it as fan service - and you'd also see that they came up with some lore based explanations for that fan service.

I've seen arguments on GAF asking for exactly that - reasonable in-story justification for sexualization. Ok - if it's bad justification, then how would you go about doing it? What's good justification to you? If there can be no good justification within the story... and that they shouldn't comment on it (i.e. don't wrap it up in bullshit)... well shit, that's just going to draw the ire of another crowd.

And if you kow-tow and remove the fan service... guess what? Someone else gets annoyed at that too! You can't win with this shit.

 

[Ekai]

Because the games she's in sold like shit.

No. Because Bayo is sex-positive in a game that knows what it is and is consistent it's mood and style. And because Quiet is literally a sex-object who isn't sex-positive and Kojima expected us to take her seriously.

Women on NeoGAF are tired of trying to explain basic things about their lives to morons. Don't take their silence as quietly agreeing with you.

Thank you.

 

[Jobbs]

Women on NeoGAF are tired of trying to explain basic things about their lives to morons. Don't take their silence as quietly agreeing with you.

I made several posts trying to explain it and every response I received involved ignoring what I said and then misunderstanding the objection. If I'm sick of explaining it, I can't imagine being a woman trying to explain it.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

No matter how many times I explain "the context and treatment of female characters within a game is what is potentially offensive, not the mere existence of a sexy outfit" no one seems to understand or listen, so I won't further the discussion here. I give up.

That's probably what's gonna happen to me pretty quickly. That's what happen every single time this kind of topic is brought up on Gaf. Sometimes I wonder if these people are being consciously obtuse to "win" the debate, or if they genuinely can't wrap their head around how context works.

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

"Yeah, Quiet, thanks and all, I would really like to manage my base though..."

"Yup, mhm, I got it, you look great! Would LOVE to send my troops ou..."

"Got it! Would still love to just get some work do..."

"JESUS CHRIST QUIET, CALM THE FUCK DOWN"


Embarassing is the only word for it, yeah. After playing for 50 hours I can finally put some fucking clothes on her, yeah, but she still goes on looping these embarassing animations geared towards a horny 13-year-old in the background. The fact that people actually are not able to understand why this bullshit is not only unncessary and kinda offensive to both men (HEY! HEY! TITS! TITS! PLEASE STAY AWAKE! DO YOU LIKE THE GAME? NO? TITS THOUGH?!) and women (Quiet is the only female character of note and these animations are probably the most "charismatic" she ever gets, because apart from her erotic scenes she is basically devoid of any character, an empty shell. Especially disappointing considering Kojima created one of the greatest female characters in gaming with The Boss) and don't consider this blatant sexualisation as such but try to defend it with "Well, there was a vampire in that other game!" is kind of insane to me.

Wow. People are defending this?

 

[Sai-kun]

Judging by this thread (and other similar ones) it's mainly men discussing how wrong it is. It kind of ties into my previous posts in here about people fighting the battle because they feel they should. And in terms of your post it always seems one sided. Films like magic mike aren't met with the same discussion because society is seemingly okay with men being objectified (or not even seeing it as objectification?).

Are people arguing the case because it means nobody takes their hobby seriously? I don't know. Seems much like people voicing their opinions on someone else's behalf. Like, I'm seeing something that may offend someone (not myself) so I should speak up for them sort of thing.

first of all, holy false equivalency @ the bolded lmao

also as for your second paragraph, Karkador's post also works as a response to it.

Women on NeoGAF are tired of trying to explain basic things about their lives to morons. Don't take their silence as quietly agreeing with you.

 

[6.8]

I stopped playing this game. I couldn't keep playing this with my wife in the same room. Embarrassing as fuck.

 

[Palette Swap]

To be fair, I wouldn't have minded the pandering that much if Kojima hadn't gone out of his way to give a dumb justification prior to the game's release, and if the character had been competently written.
She gains a lot of gravitas in her last story mission, but the rest of the time, her character is awfully thin. Like most characters in the game, mind you, except they aren't blowup dolls, and we aren't exactly singing their praises either.
To put it differently, that writing trainwreck really magnifies the problem.

I stopped playing this game. I couldn't keep playing this with my wife in the same room. Embarrassing as fuck.

My wife walked in on the shower scene and asked me if I was sixteen. She's usually pretty tolerant of cheesecake, so I took it as a sign things had gone overboard lol.

 

[kamineko]

Well what is this about exactly. Is it just too edgy for you and crossed the line?

I haven't played these next games, but I've seen cutscenes.. Dragon Age, Witcher 3... now that looks like sex for sex sake (actual intercourse, not just titillation), and boy does it look awkward and embarrassing. Quiet might be eye candy, but she's sexy because she's also a strong and interesting character, also, Kojima and team are just good at mo-cap and emotions.

Dragon Age and Witcher 3 look a lot like those books I used to see lying around my grandma's house, except with puppets. It looks ridiculous. Not that I'm offended. I'm just not impressed.

Too edgy for me? LMAO, no I can handle Quiet. I just think she's silly, and presented in a way that undermines/overshadows what might otherwise be interesting about her.

And you know, it's possible to see that without being a secret member of the boob police. I actually respect franchises like DOA because, hey man, they are at least honest about what they are. They never try to pretend that women in swimsuits are... dramatically compelling or some kind of shit. Quiet is embarrassing, at least to me, because the efforts to intellectualize all the T&A are both disingenuous and insufficient.

Sometimes when you hear the word "outrage" or "offended," folks aren't actually outraged or offended. They just are, you know, seeing bullshit and then calling it bullshit.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

My best guess: Because Kojima's messaging about the obvious fan service nature of Quiet drew the ire of this crowd.

Like, if the character had been left untouched - but the PR messaging over quiet was simply - yes, we prepared a strong fan service character, we hope you enjoy it!

I doubt there'd be as much uproar over the character.

You're talking about the "you'll be ashamed of judging Quiet once you know her backstory" tweet? I'm sure most people knew it was bullshit from the start. I must admit I laughed out loud watching the cutscene where they explain

Spoiler

she's basically an hypersexualised plant

when I thought back about that tweet, but the tweet didn't affect my perception one bit.

I guess I'm a SJW (fuck it, I reclaim the term), I found Quiet to be embarrassingly ridiculous most of the time, and yet I absolutely love how Bayonetta is written. They're both hypersexualised characters, but written in a very different way.

 

[DrunkDan]

first of all, holy false equivalency @ the bolded lmao

also as for your second paragraph, Karkador's post also works as a response to it.

I don't need women to explain how they feel. That's not my point. I know exactly why Quiet is a problem. All I am curious about is whether or not half the people that post about how offended/embarrassed/annoyed/upset are really feeling that way or if it's because they think they should.

Like I said before, are the same people telling us why Quiet is awful also avoiding porn or films that have scantily clad women for the purpose of objectification? I severely doubt it so why the vested interest in the same things in gaming?

 

[Novocaine]

I loved Quiet's story arc. She's a bad ass character, regardless of what she's wearing.

 

[Aurongel]

Judging by this thread (and other similar ones) it's mainly men discussing how wrong it is. It kind of ties into my previous posts in here about people fighting the battle because they feel they should. And in terms of your post it always seems one sided. Films like magic mike aren't met with the same discussion because society is seemingly okay with men being objectified (or not even seeing it as objectification?).

Are people arguing the case because it means nobody takes their hobby seriously? I don't know. Seems much like people voicing their opinions on someone else's behalf. Like, I'm seeing something that may offend someone (not myself) so I should speak up for them sort of thing.

Everybody wants equality going forward so I understand why people speak up, that's not what I'm disagreeing with. I'm saying that people are nowhere near as offended or embarrassed as they make out when this type of discussion comes up. Perhaps as others have mentioned previously, to raise awareness to things you need to go over the top in being vocal to ensure you're heard?

Oh man, Magic Mike is a film that is ABOUT objectification, hence the ogling of the male stars.

Intent is the keyword here that most of you are ignoring. There is zero meaningful artistic statement being made with Quiet, no purpose other than to titilate the viewer and create interest in a character that is otherwise pretty flat. Even the Skulls and nurses during the intro suffer the same fate with frequent shots of their chests and butts.

These aspects of the game are juvenile at best, gross at worst (shower and rain scenes). This ain't rocket science, folks.

 

[Sai-kun]

I don't need women to explain how they feel. That's not my point. I know exactly why Quiet is a problem. All I am curious about is whether or not half the people that post about how offended/embarrassed/annoyed/upset are really feeling that way or if it's because they think they should.

Like I said before, are the same people telling us why Quiet is awful also avoiding porn or films that have scantily clad women for the purpose of objectification? I severely doubt it so why the vested interest in the same things in gaming?

no porn studio pretends that their porn films are anything more than shit for us to get off to, so why would anybody avoid porn?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I don't need women to explain how they feel. That's not my point. I know exactly why Quiet is a problem. All I am curious about is whether or not half the people that post about how offended/embarrassed/annoyed/upset are really feeling that way or if it's because they think they should.

Like I said before, are the same people telling us why Quiet is awful also avoiding porn or films that have scantily clad women for the purpose of objectification? I severely doubt it so why the vested interest in the same things in gaming?

What the actual fuck.

If they don't like Quiet they must be offended at lingerie ads in Walmart flyers huh? Damn PC culture!!!!

 

[Steel]

Too edgy for me? LMAO, no I can handle Quiet. I just think she's silly, and presented in a way that undermines/overshadows what might otherwise be interesting about her.

And you know, it's possible to see that without being a secret member of the boob police. I actually respect franchises like DOA because, hey man, they are at least honest about what they are. They never try to pretend that women in swimsuits are... dramatically compelling or some kind of shit. Quiet is embarrassing, at least to me, because the efforts to intellectualize all the T&A are both disingenuous and insufficient.

Sometimes when you hear the word "outrage" or "offended," folks aren't actually outraged or offended. They just are, you know, seeing bullshit and then calling it bullshit.

Pretty much. I don't even see how people can defend this, it's just so out of place and awkward.

 

[DrunkDan]

What the actual fuck.

If they don't like Quiet they must be offended at lingerie ads in Walmart flyers huh? Damn PC culture!!!!

Yeah because that's exactly what I said wasn't it?

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I don't need women to explain how they feel. That's not my point. I know exactly why Quiet is a problem. All I am curious about is whether or not half the people that post about how offended/embarrassed/annoyed/upset are really feeling that way or if it's because they think they should.

Like I said before, are the same people telling us why Quiet is awful also avoiding porn or films that have scantily clad women for the purpose of objectification? I severely doubt it so why the vested interest in the same things in gaming?

FWIW, Magic Mike didn't come with some statement saying viewers will be ashamed of themselves for viewing it like a glorified meat-fest once they see its "true meaning" or some bullshit.

 

[Tain]

Even ignoring perceived intent and marketing, Quiet's design and the shots she's in are out-of-place as fuck and the game would be better if that weren't the case.

 

[Jobbs]

Yeah because that's exactly what I said wasn't it?

I don't know you operate in a thread making responses to things without even understanding the objection of the people you're replying to, even when they explain it plainly on the same page.

I don't think very many people here believe that the mere existence of a sexy outfit in a piece of media is, in and of itself, the problem... And that's the only thing you're stuck on.

 

[Zaptruder]

You're talking about the "you'll be ashamed of judging Quiet once you know her backstory" tweet? I'm sure most people knew it was bullshit from the start. I must admit I laughed out loud watching the cutscene where they explain

Spoiler

she's basically an hypersexualised plant

when I thought back about that tweet, but the tweet didn't affect my perception one bit.

I guess I'm a SJW (fuck it, I reclaim the term), I found Quiet to be embarrassingly ridiculous most of the time, and yet I absolutely love how Bayonetta is written. They're both hypersexualised characters, but written in a very different way.

Well, Bayonetta is definetly upfront and aggressive about her sexuality, and that's cool to me.

Quiet is well... a more traditionally coquettish flirt (albeit with a very overtly exposed bikini look). But what's wrong with that? Like we can't value dominant and submissive traits? Feminism has to be only about women taking an equal share of the power? Rather than an equal acceptance of all traits and behaviour in all people?

I just don't think it's really necessary to argue for equality by attacking more sexualized representations in media - rather just balance the amount of sexualization for all groups. If they released a Snake skin where he's wearing Quiet's outfit - I'd be totally down with that. I'd rock the Snake/Quiet bikini pair all day long.

 

[DrunkDan]

FWIW, Magic Mike didn't come with some statement saying viewers will be ashamed of themselves for viewing it like a glorified meat-fest once they see its "true meaning" or some bullshit.

I agree that Kojima tried to justify Quiet with some bullshit reasoning, and equally I understand that she's a poorly executed attempt at playing to a certain crowd.

Again, that was never my argument. I'm simply more curious as to whether or not people really care or just being vocal because they think they should. I'm not defending her or Kojima. That seems to be what people think when you ask questions about people's reasonings for speaking out. I'm not saying don't speak out.

 

[captainpat]

FWIW, Magic Mike didn't come with some statement saying viewers will be ashamed of themselves for viewing it like a glorified meat-fest once they see its "true meaning" or some bullshit.

This hung up over tweet?

 

[Polioliolio]

Too edgy for me? LMAO, no I can handle Quiet. I just think she's silly, and presented in a way that undermines/overshadows what might otherwise be interesting about her.

And you know, it's possible to see that without being a secret member of the boob police. I actually respect franchises like DOA because, hey man, they are at least honest about what they are. They never try to pretend that women in swimsuits are... dramatically compelling or some kind of shit. Quiet is embarrassing, at least to me, because the efforts to intellectualize all the T&A are both disingenuous and insufficient.

Sometimes when you hear the word "outrage" or "offended," folks aren't actually outraged or offended. They just are, you know, seeing bullshit and then calling it bullshit.

Can a woman in a swimsuit not be dramatically compelling or interesting?

... See, I just disagree with you. Porn with any semblance of a plot is actually way more interesting than handicam hardcore. The more plot surrounding the character, the more interesting and titillating sexuality is.

Quiet is a strong, and sexualized character. If she was nothing but a pair of boobs, would she be interesting at all? Is that what men really want? Just a pair of tits?

It's overly sexy. No denying it. But if throw out her character and surrounding plot, it's just trash.


Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Can't something be both sexy and interesting? In this case, it seems like you're just saying Kojima failed at that, which sounds like a critique of his story telling.. Being the creator, we can't project control over him. You either like his shtick or you don't, but I don't think he should be ashamed of himself for balancing one of his many characters more toward sex appeal.

 

[Karkador]

I wonder if the people unwilling or incapable of seeing the intent in different works (whether it's MGS, Magic Mike, or porn) think their parents are in love with them when they say "I love you".

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Well, Bayonetta is definetly upfront and aggressive about her sexuality, and that's cool to me.

Quiet is well... a more traditionally coquettish flirt. But what's wrong with that? Like we can't value dominant and submissive traits? Feminism has to be only about women taking an equal share of the power? Rather than an equal acceptance of all traits and behaviour in all people?

I can only speak for myself, but Quiet seemed designed as a living fuckdoll. Doesn't talk, always obedient, dressed sexy for your own pleasure, and show you her ass and tits without reason or context because that's almost her only mean of interacting with the player. I mean, even when she's being tortured the game puts emphasis on her boobs. Seeing as its a character you see a lot during the 60h+ campaign and she's the only important female character, it's hard to not see this as exploitative and cheap.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Can a woman in a swimsuit not be dramatically compelling or interesting?

... See, I just disagree with you. Porn with any semblance of a plot is actually way more interesting than handicam hardcore. The more plot surrounding the character, the more interesting and titillating sexuality is.

Quiet is a strong, and sexualized character. If she was nothing but a pair of boobs, would she be interesting at all? Is that what men really want? Just a pair of tits?

It's overly sexy. No denying it. But if throw out her character and surrounding plot, it's just trash.


Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Can't something be both sexy and interesting? In this case, it seems like you're just saying Kojima failed at that, which sounds like a critique of his story telling.. Being the creator, we can't project control over him. You either like his shtick or you don't, but I don't think he should be ashamed of himself for balancing one of his many characters more toward sex appeal.

Even with her plot it's just trash, because it's so incredibly contrived just to end at the end goal of bewbz. She's not a strong character in anyway shape or form aside from having super powers. Her actions are in no way believable from the very beginning. Which is pretty insane relatively speaking. There's a vast difference between a character that is actually interesting as well as attractive, like Yennefer, and someone who's plot and actions are incredibly contrived just to pander to a male audience.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Well, Bayonetta is definetly upfront and aggressive about her sexuality, and that's cool to me.

Quiet is well... a more traditionally coquettish flirt (albeit with a very overtly exposed bikini look). But what's wrong with that? Like we can't value dominant and submissive traits? Feminism has to be only about women taking an equal share of the power? Rather than an equal acceptance of all traits and behaviour in all people?

What person (male or female) would possibly flirt or carry out being submissive the way Quiet does though? Set her outfit, and crappy writing justification aside for a moment. Her mannerisms, actions, and the way she carries herself all almost come across as borderline developmentally disabled.

It's like they went "let's take Vanille from FFXIII and make her a silent blown up doll."

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Well, Bayonetta is definetly upfront and aggressive about her sexuality, and that's cool to me.

Quiet is well... a more traditionally coquettish flirt. But what's wrong with that? Like we can't value dominant and submissive traits? Feminism has to be only about women taking an equal share of the power? Rather than an equal acceptance of all traits and behaviour in all people?

I can only speak for myself, but Quiet seemed designed as a living fuckdoll. Doesn't talk, always obedient, dressed sexy for your own pleasure, and show you her ass and tits without reason or context because that's almost her only mean of interacting with the player. I mean, even when she's being tortured the game puts emphasis on her boobs. Seeing as its a character you see a lot during the 60h+ campaign and she's the only important female character, it's hard to not see this as exploitative and cheap.

On the other hand, Kojima previously managed to have a sexy and sexualised character that was still interesting and didn't make me think she exists just to put some boobs in the game (Eva in MGS3).

EDIT: Just typing "MGS3" is enough to make me crave re-re-re-re-re-replaying that game. Uuuuuurgh.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

This hung up over tweet?

If only it was just a tweet and the game itself had competent tone, writing, and execution to know how to pull off fanservice cheese. Clearly one tweet is what ruined things here.

 

[captainpat]

If only it was just a tweet and the game itself had competent tone, writing, and execution to know how to pull off fanservice cheese. Clearly one tweet is what ruined things here.

You keep referencing it so I guess it did for you.

 

[Ekai]

I don't need women to explain how they feel. That's not my point. I know exactly why Quiet is a problem. All I am curious about is whether or not half the people that post about how offended/embarrassed/annoyed/upset are really feeling that way or if it's because they think they should.

Like I said before, are the same people telling us why Quiet is awful also avoiding porn or films that have scantily clad women for the purpose of objectification? I severely doubt it so why the vested interest in the same things in gaming?

This line of argumentation makes no sense because it's assuming that people only believe what they say because it's "right to do". It reads as the same kind of argument that some mra will make about how people are only nice to women because they get 'rewarded' for it ie: being the thing they "should" do because society expects it/is "PC".

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I wasn't commenting on Quiet per se but more that being a M rated game is absolutely no excuse for such blatant excuse of a character.
Since you brought up R rated movies or even movies to begin with, do you have an example of a movie actually R rated that features such massive excuse of a stripper in an otherwise tonally serious movie?
I don't mean a shower scene (because god knows shitty director tend to put that to try to stave off boredom in their crappy paced movie shaped sleeping pills) I mean a character that is essentially a pet, T&A for the other characters to gawk at and that's it.
I'll be here all day.

Planet Terror.

I've completely lost where this thread is at, are we talking about worst character in gaming or complaining that some individuals in this thread can't be civil and resort to name calling / creepers? Again I put my vote for that one female in Deus ex human revolution in Detroit as the most embarrassing thing ( that I've seen, dumb fan service in a series that's excelled in fan service didn't pull me out like it did in deus ex, but I can see how it pulls some people out.)
Or the cast of custards revenge.... But that game isn't serious. Also I'm surprised "that game" on the last page was even referenced... Hell it was banned in Japan iirc recently.(4 years ago I think)

RapeLay? That's not banned in Japan. Amazon just won't carry it I thought.

 

[sonicmj1]

Well, Bayonetta is definetly upfront and aggressive about her sexuality, and that's cool to me.

Quiet is well... a more traditionally coquettish flirt (albeit with a very overtly exposed bikini look). But what's wrong with that? Like we can't value dominant and submissive traits? Feminism has to be only about women taking an equal share of the power? Rather than an equal acceptance of all traits and behaviour in all people?

If the game's plot is to be believed, Quiet spends almost the entire game committed, on some level, to eventually killing Snake and Diamond Dogs. She only decides to forsake vengeance at the very end.

I'm not "embarrassed" by her, but her character as executed is a total mess of contradictions because they can't decide whether they want her character to be a badass, stoic soldier torn between love and duty, or a silent, obedient sex doll stuck in an unbelievably exposed outfit who exists to do sexy poses and get ogled by the camera. That dissonance weakens both sides of her.

 

[Radical Edward]

I guess I judged quiet on what was on the inside and not by what was on the outside (jk). I think people are forgetting what game series this is. If it was TLOU, sure, I feel ya but MGS is very anime in a lot of ways. I get what people are upset about but out of the ten or so Women I know that have seen me play MGSV or know about Quiet none were offended. About half thought her outfit was silly but that teenagers would like it and the others thought she was pretty badass. Some of these women were medical doctors, Uni Profs, moms, school teachers and gamer girls.

Would quiet be a better character if she wore clothes? Maybe, but MGS loves some good fanservice and caters to its target audience. Like I mentioned before, I think this is more of a North American, male thing because most of my European friends would be laughing at this. I don't think this is a big issue in Japan either, but I could be wrong. I dont think this invalidates anyone's opinion, I just think it is interesting and I think the discussion has been pretty good, so far.

Additionally, because Bayo has been mentioned, I have seen way more crotch shots in Bayo but I usually used DD in MGSV.

Side note based on a movie that was recently mentioned: I was the only male at the opening of Magic Mike in my town because I'm a huge Soderbergh fan (maybe C-Tates, as well ) and it was hilarious. The shit women were saying was pure gold and it was a super fun time.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

You keep referencing it so I guess it did for you.

By mentioning it, what, twice maybe? And somehow that negates all the other actual issues with the handling and execution in the game? They're all pretty glaring issues and reasons that make Quiet embarrassing. And have been pointed out by many users numerous times. But, feel free to pick and choose what you wanna focus on a la cart. It's not gonna diminish how poor of a character she is though.

 

[Zaptruder]

What person (male or female) would possibly flirt or carry out being submissive the way Quiet does though? Set her outfit, and crappy writing justification aside for a moment. Her mannerisms, actions, and the way she carries herself all almost come across as borderline developmentally disabled.

It's like they went "let's take Vanille from FFXIII and make her a silent blown up doll."

Does it really? It comes across as a character that's frustrated at her muteness to me. I mean, I guess I can see how a really uncharitable interpretation that's hell bent on seeing flaw would arrive at that sort of conclusion - but it's not going to be the standard interpretation for most people I'd think.

I can only speak for myself, but Quiet seemed designed as a living fuckdoll. Doesn't talk, always obedient, dressed sexy for your own pleasure, and show you her ass and tits without reason or context because that's almost her only mean of interacting with the player. I mean, even when she's being tortured the game puts emphasis on her boobs. Seeing as its a character you see a lot during the 60h+ campaign and she's the only important female character, it's hard to not see this as exploitative and cheap.

On the other hand, Kojima previously managed to have a sexy and sexualised character that was still interesting and didn't make me think she exists just to put some boobs in the game (Eva in MGS3).

Well, I suppose there's an argument to be made in terms of the complete lack of balance in the way that MGSV presents gender and sexualization - I'd agree with that, even if we don't agree on the solutions.

If the game's plot is to be believed, Quiet spends almost the entire game committed, on some level, to eventually killing Snake and Diamond Dogs. She only decides to forsake vengeance at the very end.

I'm not "embarrassed" by her, but her character as executed is a total mess of contradictions because they can't decide whether they want her character to be a badass, stoic soldier torn between love and duty, or a silent, obedient sex doll stuck in an unbelievably exposed outfit who exists to do sexy poses and get ogled by the camera. That dissonance weakens both sides of her.

Well, a part of it is that she's meant to be a seductress right? So she's trying to seduce Snake in order to gain his trust, and also acting like a bad ass soldier... to gain his trust. And she ends up falling for him. That bit makes sense to me.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Well, I suppose there's an argument to be made in terms of the complete lack of balance in the way that MGSV presents gender and sexualization - I'd agree with that, even if we don't agree on the solutions.

Where did I ever push on a solution, except maybe the implied "better writing"?

 

[Aquillion]

Again, that was never my argument. I'm simply more curious as to whether or not people really care or just being vocal because they think they should. I'm not defending her or Kojima. That seems to be what people think when you ask questions about people's reasonings for speaking out. I'm not saying don't speak out.

People really care, yeah! As you can see from this thread. They think that it's a bad way to make a game.

Everyone has their own tastes and opinions, but asking "is that your real opinion, or are you just saying it because they think you should" is really weird.

If I say "I don't think smartphone games like Cookie Clicker are good for the industry", nobody is going to confront me about it, even though there's immense cultural pressure among gamers to look down on those. If I say "licensed games are terrible" nobody is going to get up in my face about it. (Some people might disagree, but I wouldn't run into people doing what you're doing now and implying that my opinions are just, what, some sort of cultural signifier? Not a real opinion, somehow?) Yet if I say the same thing about things like Quiet, I get someone like you asking me if that's my real opinion or just, I don't know, something I was socially-indoctrinated with?

I don't think you're doing it deliberately, but it comes across as if the topic of gender-in-games is one that bugs you somehow, making you instinctively look for threads you can pull to change the subject or to make it go away; or as if you can't believe or accept that so many people feel the way they do about this.

 

[RM8]

"I know women who like this" is a very common argument in threads line this one, and that's because some people seemingly can't comprehend that not liking fanservice doesn't equal speaking on behalf of women or anyone else for that matter. I can't speak about Quiet as a character since I haven't played MGSV (not because of her, it's just not a series I enjoy) - but if you want my opinion about her design, I find it pretty stupid and shameless, and that would be -my- opinion, and not me trying to "defend" women.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Does it really? It comes across as a character that's frustrated at her muteness to me. I mean, I guess I can see how a really uncharitable interpretation that's hell bent on seeing flaw would arrive at that sort of conclusion - but it's not going to be the standard interpretation for most people I'd think.

That's a nice way of processing her I guess, but nothing about her seemed like a believable or relatable mute person (or just a person period) to me.

Yeah, we're supposed to suspend our disbelief and all that given how ridiculous everything about her is. But this goes back to the game having massive issues with tone, humor and how it presents and carries itself.

 

[Clear]

Can a woman in a swimsuit not be dramatically compelling or interesting?

... See, I just disagree with you. Porn with any semblance of a plot is actually way more interesting than handicam hardcore. The more plot surrounding the character, the more interesting and titillating sexuality is.

Quiet is a strong, and sexualized character. If she was nothing but a pair of boobs, would she be interesting at all? Is that what men really want? Just a pair of tits?

It's overly sexy. No denying it. But if throw out her character and surrounding plot, it's just trash.


Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Can't something be both sexy and interesting? In this case, it seems like you're just saying Kojima failed at that, which sounds like a critique of his story telling.. Being the creator, we can't project control over him. You either like his shtick or you don't, but I don't think he should be ashamed of himself for balancing one of his many characters more toward sex appeal.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

The way I see it, Kojima wanted a character that was sexy, badass, and most importantly sympathetic, so the player would feel a sense of loss when she was gone.

Two of those three attributes I see as unambiguously positive traits, the only "questionable" aspect being the sexualization, which I can understand is not to everyone's taste.

In that regard I can well understand how Kojima intended the players empathy for Quiet as a character to take precedence over her overt sexualization in the long-term.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

If the game's plot is to be believed, Quiet spends almost the entire game committed, on some level, to eventually killing Snake and Diamond Dogs. She only decides to forsake vengeance at the very end.

I'm not "embarrassed" by her, but her character as executed is a total mess of contradictions because they can't decide whether they want her character to be a badass, stoic soldier torn between love and duty, or a silent, obedient sex doll stuck in an unbelievably exposed outfit who exists to do sexy poses and get ogled by the camera. That dissonance weakens both sides of her.

I feel like rather than sexist, that's just bad characterization.