Support NeoGAF

[Crossing Eden]

I guess I judged quiet on what was on the inside and not by what was on the outside (jk). I think people are forgetting what game series this is. If it was TLOU, sure, I feel ya but MGS is very anime in a lot of ways. I get what people are upset about but out of the ten or so Women I know that have seen me play MGSV or know about Quiet none were offended. About half thought her outfit was silly but that teenagers would like it and the others thought she was pretty badass. Some of these women were medical doctors, Uni Profs, moms, school teachers and gamer girls.

Would quiet be a better character if she wore clothes? Maybe, but MGS loves some good fanservice and caters to its target audience. Like I mentioned before, I think this is more of a North American, male thing because most of my European friends would be laughing at this. I don't think this is a big issue in Japan either, but I could be wrong. I dont think this invalidates anyone's opinion, I just think it is interesting and I think the discussion has been pretty good, so far.

Additionally, because Bayo has been mentioned, I have seen way more crotch shots in Bayo but I usually used DD in MGSV.

Side note based on a movie that was recently mentioned: I was the only male at the opening of Magic Mike in my town because I'm a huge Soderbergh fan (maybe C-Tates, as well ) and it was hilarious. The shit women were saying was pure gold and it was a super fun time.

It's been reiterated a shit ton of times that "It's metal gear" isn't a valid excuse. I think people who use that shit as an excuse have forgotten what series this is.

The comparison to Bayonetta is unfounded as well because that game is a shit ton more honest about it's intentions. It most certainly isn't a North American male thing, (keep that kind of thought to offtopic pls). You've basically used every cliche argument in this one post instead of actually addressing the criticisms of the character.

I feel like rather than sexist, that's just bad characterization.

She's the only character that has a dissonance this major because of sex appeal. No doubt the only reason it happens is because she's the woman in the game. It's sexist. We need to stop dancing around it and call it what it is man.

Does it really? It comes across as a character that's frustrated at her muteness to me. I mean, I guess I can see how a really uncharitable interpretation that's hell bent on seeing flaw would arrive at that sort of conclusion - but it's not going to be the standard interpretation for most people I'd think.



Well, I suppose there's an argument to be made in terms of the complete lack of balance in the way that MGSV presents gender and sexualization - I'd agree with that, even if we don't agree on the solutions.



Well, a part of it is that she's meant to be a seductress right? So she's trying to seduce Snake in order to gain his trust, and also acting like a bad ass soldier... to gain his trust. And she ends up falling for him. That bit makes sense to me.

Mute people don't behave the way Quiet does when they're attracted to someone, she's also not meant to be a seductress because she starts wearing that outfit offscreen after discovering that the only thing that didn't survive her burning was her lungs despite the fact that she can still talk.

 

[sonicmj1]

Well, a part of it is that she's meant to be a seductress right? So she's trying to seduce Snake in order to gain his trust, and also acting like a bad ass soldier... to gain his trust. And she ends up falling for him. That bit makes sense to me.

I never got the sense that she was meant to be a seductress. The only things that could be read that way come after she has already fallen for him (when your bond level is raised). Any time anyone else gets close to her she beats the shit out of them.

She's a soldier in just about every scene, unlike a seductress like Eva, who we see working both sides.

 

[Jobbs]

If I'm extra sensitive about this issue it's because I have young nieces who play games, especially the younger one (who is 8) and is already showing signs of being a hardcore gamer. We play Smash Bros & Garden Warfare all the time and she's competitive as hell. She also plays single player games. She's a legit gamer.

It's my hope that the games she plays positively affect her development. She already knows about and shows interest in more mature games (she asked for Fallout 4 -- lol) so it's only a matter of time -- One she gets a bit older -- before she could potentially encounter a game like MGS5, or, heaven forbid, MGS5

She loves games, and I don't want games to be reinforcing negative views about herself that society will often already be putting in place. I want her to have cool characters in her games that she can look up to and relate to.

So -- MGS5 being a piece of shit isn't the end of the world. I don't lose any sleep over it. But I'm not criticizing it because "I feel like I'm supposed to". I'm calling a piece of shit what I think it is, and while geniuses like Kojima will continue to be able to make whatever game they want, I think if they make ones like this they should also receive shit for it. It's well deserved.

 

[Aquillion]

I mean, personally, I think that there's room for shameless fan-service somewhere in the game industry; it's huge and with the internet and all it can support almost anything. But I also think that it's important to avoid situations where shameless fan-service becomes the default -- I think it's important for people who are bothered by it or turned away by it or not interested in it to speak up and say "hey, that's shameless fanservice and I'm not into that" to avoid a situation where developers think they can put fan-service into anything they want at random without losing audience. There's still this assumption, often, that the main audience for games is horny 14-year-old boys, and while I don't have anything against making games for that audience, it's important for other parts of the audience (and people who want other things) to make their voices heard so someone making the next MGS will say "all right, who do I want to appeal to with this?" rather than just making the automatic assumption that their game is for horny 14-year-old boys.

Sakura Clicker actually doesn't bother me as much for this reason; packaging shameless fan-service as shameless fan-service is fine. My issue with Quiet is that MGS doesn't otherwise feel like a game based around fan-service, so it feels as if she was dropped into the game carelessly, without realizing that large portions of their audience aren't going to want to play a game with something like that in it.

I mean, if they want to turn around and say "well, people who are bothered by Quiet aren't are audience; we're making game for horny 14-year-old-boys and people who like that sort of thing and that's that", that's their call. But -- unlike, say, Sakura Clicker -- that's not the vibe I got overall from MGS.

 

[Polioliolio]

Well which is it? Is it 'Kojima done goofed' and wrote a dumb character in a dumb game, or is it an inappropriate and offensive affront to women and art?

The former certainly isn't something to do more than chuckle at so I'm not sure why it's discussed so much.

If it's the latter, carry on the movement.

 

[Zaptruder]

I never got the sense that she was meant to be a seductress. The only things that could be read that way come after she has already fallen for him (when your bond level is raised). Any time anyone else gets close to her she beats the shit out of them.

Hmmm, you might be right there - kinda forgot the order of those scenes.

But if it's a case of you raising your bond level before unlocking those scenes... then it still makes sense - she has a mission to kill Snake... but because he doesn't kill her, she chooses to return the favour, and instead observe. Then as you increase your bond/trust level with her, she begins to get affectionate with Snake (albeit not overtly, given the nature of her parasite). But she's still a bad ass soldier at her core - meaning she continues to kill quickly without hesitation as the situation calls for it.

I'm not going to claim that Quiet is an amazing character - I simply don't feel embarassed that I liked her - despite the insistence of many here that I should. Honestly, didn't seem that bad in my opinion, even if the overall context of her presentation could've been improved substantially in many ways.

 

[Mael]

Planet Terror.

That film is actually honest about its pandering which is the issue here.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Well which is it? Is it 'Kojima done goofed' and wrote a dumb character in a dumb game, or is it an inappropriate and offensive affront to women and art?

The former certainly isn't something to do more than chuckle at so I'm not sure why it's discussed so much.

If it's the latter, carry on the movement.

It's more a combination of both. Simply due to some of the scenes. Games already misuse rape and torture all the time. Adding sexualization via a leering camera and closeups on a woman's body at the same time is where the line should be drawn.

 

[Aquillion]

Well which is it? Is it 'Kojima done goofed' and wrote a dumb character in a dumb game, or is it an inappropriate and offensive affront to women and art?

The former certainly isn't something to do more than chuckle at so I'm not sure why it's discussed so much.

If it's the latter, carry on the movement.

Somewhere between the two, I think? I don't think Quiet is good for the game, at least the way she's portrayed, and some of that is that she's a piece of out-of-place feeling extreme fan-service -- like I'm getting pop-up adds for Sakura Clicker as I play. I'm less bothered by her specifically and more by the game's implicit, out-of-the-blue assumption that I'm someone who would like that sort of thing.

I don't see it as a movement, though. It's mostly just people expressing their opinions about games and game-design, and generally making their voices heard about the fact that they're part of the game's audience and how things like this make it feel like it's not aimed at them.

Maybe Konami will listen with their next game, maybe it won't; that's up to them. But I think that someone will listen (and that some people are listening), and that they'll make games for that audience if Konami won't.

(I also think that it's useful to point things like that out so other people who are bothered by them will know what they're getting into when they buy the game. I don't think that Quiet ruins the entire game or anything, but it's fair to give people a heads up that hey, this game contains a really cringe-y degree of pandering at some points.)

 

[DrunkDan]

People really care, yeah! As you can see from this thread. They think that it's a bad way to make a game.

Everyone has their own tastes and opinions, but asking "is that your real opinion, or are you just saying it because they think you should" is really weird.

If I say "I don't think smartphone games like Cookie Clicker are good for the industry", nobody is going to confront me about it, even though there's immense cultural pressure among gamers to look down on those. If I say "licensed games are terrible" nobody is going to get up in my face about it. (Some people might disagree, but I wouldn't run into people doing what you're doing now and implying that my opinions are just, what, some sort of cultural signifier? Not a real opinion, somehow?) Yet if I say the same thing about things like Quiet, I get someone like you asking me if that's my real opinion or just, I don't know, something I was socially-indoctrinated with?

I don't think you're doing it deliberately, but it comes across as if the topic of gender-in-games is one that bugs you somehow, making you instinctively look for threads you can pull to change the subject or to make it go away; or as if you can't believe or accept that so many people feel the way they do about this.

It's not weird to ask, I'm curious because I'm wondering if this type of argument is tied into the white knighting culture that has come about in recent times. We live in an age of people taking offence on others behalf and I wonder if this is the same thing.

Even within this thread we have people with different reasoning. Some people allude to the fact that she's offensive because a tweet said there would be more to her. Some people say the volleyball game is okay because they've not tried to dress it up as anything else, some people dislike quiet because she's just in the game for eye candy. Others dislike her because she's poorly written and does a disservice to women. All legitimate arguments, all well explained and eloquently put. Yet some people (not just on this topic) simply think she's disgusting but have no reasoning. Those are the people I'm curious about. There's nothing strange about wondering how the mind works.

Gender in games is not something that bothers me. I have a three year old daughter that I'm raising in a world that is - currently- heavily lopsided towards males. I want the world to change for the better for her. None of my posts are defending Quiet. I'm sorry if I've offended anybody in here or riled people up. That was never my intention. I haven't intended to defend any type of sexist behaviour or anything similar, just posting for healthy friendly debate.

 

[Ekai]

It's not weird to ask, I'm curious because I'm wondering if this type of argument is tied into the white knighting culture that has come about in recent times...............just posting for healthy friendly debate.

So you literally are using the MRA argument I described as some sort of legit argument to question why anyone would express criticism of this. This isn't worth the time folks.

It's also not healthy to assume that people only say this because they think they should. That's not how you debate.

 

[Jobbs]

I'm surprised to be hearing terms like "SJW" and "white knight" used unironically on Neogaf. In most cases if I see this I go for the exit. In fact, I probably should.

 

[Bluecondor]

While I won't debate you on the aesthetics of Quiet, she quickly became one of my favorite video game characters of all time (hands down - the best NPC of all time) - simply because she is so useful in the game. Of the 1,400 or so soldiers I have on my MB staff, she is probably responsible for sniping 800 of them with her NL sniper-rifle. There were dozens of times when I didn't have to replay a side mission or even regular mission in which I had just fultoned 20+ soldiers because she took out a guy who was about to kill me. I honestly have the same positive feeling about Quiet that I have toward real life teammates in team sports who step up when we need someone to come through.

MGSV was my first MGS game, but after years of playing open world third person games like GTA, RDR, Mafia, etc., she is far and away my favorite NPC of all time.

 

[Aquillion]

It's not weird to ask, I'm curious because I'm wondering if this type of argument is tied into the white knighting culture that has come about in recent times.

Oh man, I didn't expect you to actually come out and say that. Like, it was your obvious subtext, but here you are actually using white knight unironically... while insisting that you were just asking questions. That's incredible. I mean, I'll reply, because I'm an insufferable pedant, but come on.

Just to put it on the table anyway, first of all: No, I absolutely don't agree that there's any sort of "white knighting culture". The term is an empty buzzword; nobody in this thread, that I can see, has posted anything that would justify the way you're implicitly using it to level accusations against them. At the very least, you have to realize that most people here don't have the same perception of our culture as you do -- you can't honestly believe that everyone else here thinks that there's a "white knight culture"; if you've been around enough to know the term, then you know what that's about. So using it offhandedly in your first post, like "oh you know, white knighting culture, that's totally a thing, right?" comes across as either ignorant of how marginal your views there are, or just trying to ignore the fact that most people don't agree with you and trying to plow on regardless in the hopes that nobody will stop and say "wait, what? What sort of culture? Is that a thing?"

Second, I'll go back to what I said in my last post. Most of the people in this thread have posted pretty good reasons for why they feel the way they do, but if someone said "I don't like Cookie Clicker-style casual games", nobody would get up in their face the way you are here demanding an explanation. Some people just have emotional reactions to a game or a character! And that's fine, and no, it doesn't need an explanation. It certainly doesn't justify you coming in here and implying "oh, but do you really dislike it, or is this just you being a brainwashed white knight?"

If you want to ask people for details about why they think what they do, that's cool! But couching your questions it in language that assumes that their reasons are invalid -- which is what you've been doing repeatedly here -- is pointlessly insulting and makes it feel like you're just trying to derail the discussion by insinuating things about people you disagree with.

 

[DrunkDan]

Oh man, I didn't expect you to actually come out and say that. Like, it was your obvious subtext, but here you are actually using white knight unironically... while insisting that you were just asking questions. That's incredible. I mean, I'll reply, because I'm an insufferable pedant, but come on. You have to realize that most people here don't have the same perception of our culture as you do. You can't honestly believe that everyone else here thinks that there's a "white knight culture"; if you've been around enough to know the term, then you know what that's about.

But first, no, I absolutely don't agree that there's any sort of "white knighting culture". The term is an empty buzzword invented by internet reactionaries to explain away anyone who disagrees with them; nobody in this thread, that I can see, has posted anything that would justify the way you're implicitly using it to level accusations against others.

Second, I'll go back to what I said in my last post. Most of the people in this thread have posted pretty good reasons for why they feel the way they do, but if someone said "I don't like Cookie Clicker-style casual games", nobody would get up in their face the way you are here demanding an explanation.

If you want to ask people for details about why they think what they do, that's cool! But doing it in a way that implies that their opinions and positions are just some sort of bullshit stance taken because of whatever ridiculous buzzword you're using to explain them away this month is insulting them. Couching your questions it in language that assumes that their reasons are invalid -- which is what you've been doing repeatedly here -- is pointlessly insulting and makes it feel like you're just trying to derail the discussion by insinuating things about people you disagree with.

Agree to disagree. I do believe that nowadays there are people that speak out because they believe someone else would or could be offended by something, and yet not actually be offended themselves. Is that such an abstract thought? Has nobody really seen this happen?

And for what it's worth I am genuinely curious as to what people think about things. If I've come across as anything other than that then again I apologise. It was never my intention to insult anybody and I sincerely mean that. I can see that people don't agree with what I'm saying so I won't derail the thread further by continuing with my line of thought. Have a good evening everyone.

 

[cakefoo]

Quiet is definitely fanservice but she is a pretty strong character who can hold her own. I missed her when she was gone and I thought her final scenes were really well done. Wasn't particularily offended by her and neither were any of my girl friends. Some thought she was badass and others thought her outfit was silly but took no offense. Itwould be interesting to see how much of this argument is a North American thing and how many of the people saying Quiet is the worst are men vs women. Not slamming anyone's opinion, just think it would be interesting. Personally, I find the typical Disney Princess or damsel in distress far more embarrassing and so do most of my women friends.

I don't think it's a culture thing. Her inclusion says to women, "You can be hot AND strong." But the message to men is more belittling: "You'll accept any excuse to look at a half-naked girl."

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Catching up a bit.

If you don't think this type of stuff in games affects the psyche and self esteem of female gamers, then do this thought experiment: Imagine if, heaven fucking forbid, every game was like MGS5. How would this affect the development and self esteem of a girl who grew up playing games? Would it impact her self esteem at all?

I think this is pretty disingenuous and at some level, can be said about ALL groups as far as portrayals in the media go. Do you think the constant virgin-shaming that's everywhere (including on this very forum) isn't making those with already low self-esteem lower? What about political party shaming, or occupation shaming, or disorder shaming, or any number of things that can be used for whatever intent in the context of a story, joke, etc.

This isn't meant to be a whataboutism, it's to show that, and I really hate to use this term, adults need thicker skin. I say adults because MGS5 is aimed at adults. It doesn't matter that kids are going to play it or that some gamestop employee isn't doing his job by selling an M rated game to a kid. I believe that's another advertising problem that needs to be addressed, alongside comparable stuff like R rated movies getting toys clearly aimed at children. But this discussion is about the individual product, not the overarching climate that extends beyond the industry itself.

I qualified my statement, twice, carefully, with "among mainstream big budget titles". Mid-budget title releasing only in japan doesn't qualify as mainstream, nor does "Rapelay" which I haven't even heard of and I'm fairly confident I won't see it on the shelf at Best Buy.

For the record, DOAX is repulsive.

What about mid-budget localized Japanese titles that you will see at Best Buy? Like Criminal Girls.

And Rapelay was on Amazon for quite a while.

^ I think this is an overly simplistic view. The marginalization of women in games is an extension of the marginalization of women in real life.

I would think a physics wang all dude DOAX game would be pretty silly, but it's not equal for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is real life context and gender differences. Guys bouncing around in thongs would more than likely be mainly comedic. As far as I know (feel free to correct me) most women aren't primarily looking for games with guys and bouncing thongs.

I don't think anyone should be made to feel excluded or uncomfortable when they play a game, male or female, it just so happens that women face various sorts of gender discrimination in real life, throughout their lives, and having their games so frequently represent them in any of several demeaning tropes is just yet more bullshit for them to deal with.

Because of this, I think it's important for game makers to be proactive about having better female characters in games, and more representation for women in games in general. It's not because I think women deserve more than men, I think it's because they deserve the same as men.

You talk about the marginalization of women and then immediately generalize 51% of the population.

So here's my question. If there are indeed differences between male and female objectification, with the former not necessarily even occupying a sexual space, why is it wrong to want equal treatment of both? This is something Japan gets right with the lucrative Otome market, which DOES extend to sexual objectification in some cases. You yourself say you think women deserve the same as men. So is your solution no sexual objectification that has the potential for discomfort anywhere, or objectification all around so the only people unhappy are the ones looking at things explicitly not aimed at them?

I'd go for the latter, but you're free to believe the former.

 

[gamerMan]

I'm glad this is being discussed. Like Bayonetta, Quiet seems to be written by a 13 year old boy and is very offensive. I wonder if people would be okay if this was a male character in a video game with all the unnecessary crotch and butt shots. Every time she appears in the frame the camera is situated in the most absurd places.

It's comes of as strange and sometimes I wonder if Mr. Hideo Kojima is okay or if he's got some kind of weird addiction. Perhaps its a cultural thing that I don't understand but this game is borderline. Compared to Naughty Dog's characters, this character is a joke.

For my tastes, the game crossed the line but I'm sure most of gamers without kids don't mind this one dimensional portrayal. It's a very childish portrayal and I'm glad Hideo Kojima is not making movies. His portrayal of Quiet made me lose respect for him as a game designer. Does he have a daughter?

 

[Weltall Zero]

It's so embarrassing it was the final straw to make me entirely lose interest in the game. I've played every other mainline MGS, this is the first one I've skipped (first of many, most likely, considering current Konami, but that's another whole story).

If it makes anyone feel better about it, they're free to tell me how shallow I am for skipping a good game for a petty reason. I'll try to pretend I care and everything.

 

[Monocle]

No. Because Bayo is sex-positive in a game that knows what it is and is consistent it's mood and style. And because Quiet is literally a sex-object who isn't sex-positive and Kojima expected us to take her seriously.


Thank you.

Yep, well said.

I'm glad this is being discussed. Like Bayonetta, Quiet seems to be written by a 13 year old boy and is very offensive. I wonder if people would be okay if this was a male character in a video game with all the unnecessary crotch and butt shots. Every time she appears in the frame the camera is situated in the most absurd places.

It's comes of as strange and sometimes I wonder if Mr. Hideo Kojima is okay or if he's got some kind of weird addiction. Perhaps its a cultural thing that I don't understand but this game is borderline. Compared to Naughty Dog's characters, this character is a joke.

For my tastes, the game crossed the line but I'm sure most of gamers without kids don't mind this one dimensional portrayal. It's a very childish portrayal and I'm glad Hideo Kojima is not making movies. His portrayal of Quiet made me lose respect for him as a game designer. Does he have a daughter?

There's a world of difference between Bayonetta's knowing, winking, participatory sexualization and Quiet's doe-eyed, coquettish, oblivious objectification. Bayonetta has agency while Quiet is an erotic doll who's there to be ogled by the voyeuristic camera. Bayonetta literally looks at you during some of the more ridiculous shots, and actually poses for the camera. She is sexually aggressive and very much in control, unlike Quiet.

Far from clinging to a male lead like a puppy dog, Bayonetta is the most powerful character in her games. The one dude who's an even match for her is Rodin the weaponsmith, who is implied to be

Spoiler

Lucifer, AKA formerly the strongest angel and currently the strongest demon.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

No. Because Bayo is sex-positive in a game that knows what it is and is consistent it's mood and style. And because Quiet is literally a sex-object who isn't sex-positive and Kojima expected us to take her seriously.

Perfecto.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I can't speak for everyone, and we all have our own morals, but as a human being, sex is a part of my everyday life and is not secluded to the bedroom, where we are otherwise forbidden to discuss it.

Uh-huh. But Quiet isn't having sex. She doesn't have a sex scene.

This isn't even about sex. It's about objectification.

Can you imagine if the gender roles were completely swapped about this situation.

Imagine what it would be like if groups of women on the internet were judging the camera angles on a sexualized male character, which were doing a lingering focus on the underside of his pectorals or thighs, and how it's just the most embarrassing character they've ever seen, and actually worse than porn, because at least then they would know what they were getting into, but the idea of such a character showing up in mature rated entertainment is simply too inappropriate. Meanwhile other women are saying 'What exactly is the big deal? I think he's an attractive and strong character.. Not hiding any sexiness, but I like him'.

Suddenly the idea seems deflated.

Suddenly the idea seems deflated when I make up a scenario that never happens ever!

I too would like to know if this outrage is carried on more by men or women.
Seems like a bunch of guys are overly worried, with most women just shrugging it off.

[citation needed]

I could be wrong, but that's the impression I perceive here. Most of us are men, right? Any women in this thread?

.........................

Oh my fucking god.

I haven't played these next games, but I've seen cutscenes.. Dragon Age, Witcher 3... now that looks like sex for sex sake (actual intercourse

Yeah. Sex! Awesome. You like sex right? You said so earlier:

I can't speak for everyone, and we all have our own morals, but as a human being, sex is a part of my everyday life and is not secluded to the bedroom, where we are otherwise forbidden to discuss it.

What's wrong with a sex scene in a video game? Are you a prude or something?

Dragon Age and Witcher 3 look a lot like those books I used to see lying around my grandma's house, except with puppets. It looks ridiculous. Not that I'm offended. I'm just not impressed.

Okay, so the animation is less than stellar in those games. Except... this isn't what the discussion is about at all.

I wonder if the people unwilling or incapable of seeing the intent in different works (whether it's MGS, Magic Mike, or porn) think their parents are in love with them when they say "I love you".

LOL
Perfect.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I'm glad this is being discussed. Like Bayonetta, Quiet seems to be written by a 13 year old boy and is very offensive. I wonder if people would be okay if this was a male character in a video game with all the unnecessary crotch and butt shots. Every time she appears in the frame the camera is situated in the most absurd places.

It's comes of as strange and sometimes I wonder if Mr. Hideo Kojima is okay or if he's got some kind of weird addiction. Perhaps its a cultural thing that I don't understand but this game is borderline. Compared to Naughty Dog's characters, this character is a joke.

For my tastes, the game crossed the line but I'm sure most of gamers without kids don't mind this one dimensional portrayal. It's a very childish portrayal Ann's I'm glad Hideo Kojima is not making movies. His portrayal of Quiet made me lose respect for him as a game designer. Does he have a daughter?

Ah, the old "You don't know because you're not a parent" defense.

Bayonetta and Quiet are nothing alike.

 

[Mael]

Bfahaha "white knight culture".
Thanks for the laugh.
I hadn't read something as funny as that.
And to top it off, he's arguing that there's no women in the thread and that it totally change everything to the argument.
Without providing one single proof to base his whole demented points.

 

[OneEightZero]

Hmmm hmm.

Hmmmm hmmm hmmm.

 

[Nintendoga]

I don't really like her story, but I also don't feel embarrassed or outraged when looking at Quiet. Her design's silly but it doesn't really affect my choosing of her if I need a buddy.

 

[reKon]

"Yeah, Quiet, thanks and all, I would really like to manage my base though..."

"Yup, mhm, I got it, you look great! Would LOVE to send my troops ou..."

"Got it! Would still love to just get some work do..."

"JESUS CHRIST QUIET, CALM THE FUCK DOWN"


Embarassing is the only word for it, yeah. After playing for 50 hours I can finally put some fucking clothes on her, yeah, but she still goes on looping these embarassing animations geared towards a horny 13-year-old in the background. The fact that people actually are not able to understand why this bullshit is not only unncessary and kinda offensive to both men (HEY! HEY! TITS! TITS! PLEASE STAY AWAKE! DO YOU LIKE THE GAME? NO? TITS THOUGH?!) and women (Quiet is the only female character of note and these animations are probably the most "charismatic" she ever gets, because apart from her erotic scenes she is basically devoid of any character, an empty shell. Especially disappointing considering Kojima created one of the greatest female characters in gaming with The Boss) and don't consider this blatant sexualisation as such but try to defend it with "Well, there was a vampire in that other game!" is kind of insane to me.

LOL at the last gif. That head turn and pause for a second, hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He09JaBVZdE

Holy shit, what the fuck.

Just wow...

How's the VA in the remainder of this game btw? I bought this for a $1, but this shit is going all the way in the back of my backlog just from this dialogue alone.

 

[Henkka]

Excruciating how some people can think that a mid-torture scene zoom titty shot could ever be considered "appropriate as the game is M Rated" or described as "harmless titillation".

It's not a question of taste. That shit is obscene.

The torture scene is a good example of what I was saying earlier. It's utterly tone-deaf, I'll try to explain by comparing it to a game with actually good writing...

There's a scene in Uncharted 2 near the end where Elena is badly injured. Because she's a likeable character, most players will probably feel bad for her, even shocked. She's clearly in a lot of pain. Now, during this scene, the camera doesn't zoom in on her breasts.This isn't because ND is prudish or anti-sex. It's because titillation would utterly ruin the emotion the scene is trying to convey. ND does use titillation earlier in the game, in a scene where it makes sense for the characters.

When Quiet is being tortured, what is the player supposed be feeling? Horrified, shocked? I guess. But the camera keeps going to her breasts. She has salt water thrown on her to make her shiny. So we're supposed to feel shocked and aroused at the same time? It's fucking terrible writing. It's like if during a horror movie, the slasher villain would stop chasing the protagonist to tell a knock-knock joke.

Quiet is a poorly written character, and you can make that case even without using words like 'sexist', objectifying' or 'gross'.

 

[KJRS_1993]

Quiet is a poorly written character, and you can make that case even without using words like 'sexist', objectifying' or 'gross'.

I agree with you completely.
However - Quiet is poorly written. And sexist. And objectified. I might be wrong, but you make it sound like she can't be all three at once, when she certainly is.

 

[Veelk]

Quiet is a poorly written character, and you can make that case even without using words like 'sexist', objectifying' or 'gross'.

Maybe, but that is a terrible example to try any prove your point with, because I would say that the bigger crime being committed is that Kojima fetishized a woman being fucking tortured. Yeah, mixed emotional messages isn't good, but the scene tries to arouse the player even as quiet is in pain. It further makes obvious that whatever else quiet is, she is a sexual object first and foremost regardless of her will. Mixed emotions is bad writing and a disappointment but I would take that over the sexual objectification is however disgusting on a far greater level.

 

[Palculator]

When Quiet is being tortured, what is the player supposed be feeling? Horrified, shocked? I guess.

Are they?

 

[Henkka]

I agree with you completely.
However - Quiet is poorly written. And sexist. And objectified. I might be wrong, but you make it sound like she can't be all three at once, when she certainly is.

Sure, but other people are making those points already in droves heh

 

[Shaanyboi]

No. Because Bayo is sex-positive in a game that knows what it is and is consistent it's mood and style. And because Quiet is literally a sex-object who isn't sex-positive and Kojima expected us to take her seriously.

Bingo. Bayonetta is written and played off as extremely self-aware. Everything from the music to the choreography, the writing, the design, is all trying to create an extremely specific character and tone.

Quiet is supposed to be this hardened but tragic character in a story about vagina bombs, child soldiers, mujahadin etc. But also, we're going to place the camera in every possible position to eccentuate her ass and cleavage as she awkwardly poses for you. Even in torture scenes, where Quiet's face is covered, the camera is consciously placed to show off her tits.

It's tonally inconsistent yet still attempts to justify itself in this apparently serious dramatic story, thinking nobody will notice. It's trash.

 

[Lime]

Quiet is proof that gaming culture won't ever have an honest and fruitful discussion on the sexual objectification of female characters in video games. If people can't even acknowledge this blatant example of sexual objectification and sexualized torture of a mute stripper sniper, then I'm afraid that the defenders of the status quo won't ever listen and learn.

 

[Betty]

Quiet is proof that gaming culture won't ever have an honest and fruitful discussion on the sexual objectification of female characters in video games. If people can't even acknowledge this blatant example of sexual objectification and sexualized torture of a mute stripper sniper, then I'm afraid that the defenders of the status quo won't ever listen and learn.

MGSV spoiler

Spoiler

She's not mute. You can say she's mostly silent, but she's not mute.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Maybe, but that is a terrible example to try any prove your point with, because I would say that the bigger crime being committed is that Kojima fetishized a woman being fucking tortured. Yeah, mixed emotional messages isn't good, but the scene tries to arouse the player even as quiet is in pain. It further makes obvious that whatever else quiet is, she is a sexual object first and foremost regardless of her will. Mixed emotions is bad writing and a disappointment but I would take that over the sexual objectification is however disgusting on a far greater level.

I'm actually gonna disagree here. It's not easy to pull off and it requires some very specific scenarios, but there are definitely cases where a "am I supposed to be disturbed or aroused?" scenario can be done well and be thematically sound.

Recently finished a visual novel that actually did this extremely well (at least before it got redundant).

Not making any statements on the situation with Quiet though.

 

[Veelk]

I'm actually gonna disagree here. It's not easy to pull off and it requires some very specific scenarios, but there are definitely cases where a "am I supposed to be disturbed or aroused?" scenario can be done well and be thematically sound.

Recently finished a visual novel that actually did this extremely well (at least before it got redundant).

I don't think that's true. You can use a combined aspect of sexaulization and discomfort together, yes. However, there is key difference is sexual objectification vs sexualization, and that is determined by the context of the story. I don't know what visual novel you read, but if you consider it effective, it's probably because the sexualization didn't diminish the personhood of the character you're looking at. But either way, in the case of quiet, the context surrounding her means that this is not one of the times that it's thematically sound. The sexualization of Quiet is a removed aspect from her personhood. Unlike Bayonetta, she's not a sex positive character, but a character whose viewed through a sexual lens by the game. That is a WORLD of difference.

Not making any statements on the situation with Quiet though.

Well, if your not commenting on Quiet, what is the relevancy of your post? It's like someone saying they got robbed, and they're saying how they just went into their house and took their stuff, so you come in and start saying there were circumstances where a person could go into a house and take a person's stuff without it being a crime, such as if the person received it as a gift. Not untrue, but so what?

 

[Sblargh]

People calling "prudish" and "anti-sex" other people who, generally, wants gaming to be an enviroment safe for women to, among other things, be kink and sexy on their own terms.
When people use the word "offensive" (or, in this case, "embarassing") to describe what they feel about female characters who are nothing but eye candy; they aren't saying "oh my! She is promoting pre-marital sex as a fun activity to be done for non-reproductive purposes and that is a sin because the bible told me so!"

It's one of the things about these debates that feel the most disingenuous to me. I don't know if someone here is actually a religious person who thinks sex is a bad thing and therefore should be banned from entertainment in favor of family values or something, but that's one of the worst interpretations of what people are arguing about.

There's also this irritating thing going on where other people's opinions are a "moral crusade" trying to impose values while censoring others where your own opinion is absolutely neutral, rational and values-free because it is dictated entirely by the powers of logic. Values and morals hidden behind a veil of neutral rationalization is pretty much my definition of ideology. Other people are moral crusaders, I'm just the neutral voice of reason. Ugh.

 

[NoHeDidn't]

Wait i thought it was explained in the game she breaths through her skin so she hardly covers up.My guess is its so she can lie still for days on end without even breathing since she also eats through sunlight its perfect for sniping.

I know its a cop out but she did have a reason for dressing that way and many think there was absolutely no reason for it when it was explained in the holding cell scene.

 

[Veelk]

People calling "prudish" and "anti-sex" other people who, generally, wants gaming to be an enviroment safe for women to, among other things, be kink and sexy on their own terms.
When people use the word "offensive" (or, in this case, "embarassing") to describe what they feel about female characters who are nothing but eye candy; they aren't saying "oh my! She is promoting pre-marital sex as a fun activity to be done for non-reproductive purposes and that is a sin because the bible told me so!"

It's one of the things about these debates that feel the most disingenuous to me. I don't know if someone here is actually a religious person who thinks sex is a bad thing and therefore should be banned from entertainment in favor of family values or something, but that's one of the worst interpretations of what people are arguing about.

There's also this irritating thing going on where other people's opinions are a "moral crusade" trying to impose values while censoring others where your own opinion is absolutely neutral, rational and values-free because it is dictated entirely by the powers of logic. Values and morals hidden behind a veil of neutral rationalization is pretty much my definition of ideology. Other people are moral crusaders, I'm just the neutral voice of reason. Ugh.

I can't speak for others, but the distinguishing line for me is the objectification of a person vs the sexualization of one. People collude the two to be one and the same, that if you're sexual, then you can't help but be an object for sexualization. I think it'd be a healthier culture if we embraced sexualization without the diminishment of personhood we've come to associate with it, because that's the real poison. That's where all the arguments of "Well, look what she was wearing" victim blaming arguments come from. Because people think becoming sexual means becoming an object. So I can name plenty of examples outside games of sexualization I think done right, and within games, Bayonetta is the one who comes to mind primarily for reasons that have been gone over hundreds of times at this point.

And if you want to frame me as being a moral crusader for denouncing the objectification of women? I'm okay with that. Because the objectification of people is wrong. It's not an okay thing to do and I don't think it's something that is acceptable to be neutral about. This is something that does deserve a moral stand. I am willing to engage with people who believe otherwise respectfully, of course. But I don't see any shame in making an argument on it's moral basis.

 

[David Lo Pan]

There is nothing embarrassing about Quiet. To state so would be an absolute opinionated statement. So what if Quiet is scantily clad or if she gives snake the googly eyes. Hey if you dont like it, go play Barney's Hide and Seek for the Sega Genesis. You dont like the character, then dont buy or play the game. It's as simple as that.

I like music, but I won't listen to or buy Lady Gaga or Miley Cirrus. Not my kind of entertainment. And I dont complain that either is embarrassing. The same thing should apply to MGS V and Quiet.

The day when games are overwhelmed by political correctness is the day I quit gaming.


If you are embarrassed to play a game, then move out of your mom's basement and get a life.

 

[Sai-kun]

Wait i thought it was explained in the game she breaths through her skin so she hardly covers up.My guess is its so she can lie still for days on end without even breathing since she also eats through sunlight its perfect for sniping.

I know its a cop out but she did have a reason for dressing that way and many think there was absolutely no reason for it when it was explained in the holding cell scene.

Why a long glove on one of her arms? Why the tights? Why is she wearing clothes at all?

 

[HK-47]

There is nothing embarrassing about Quiet. To state so would be an absolute opinionated statement. So what if Quiet is scantily clad or if she gives snake the googly eyes. Hey if you dont like it, go play Barney's Hide and Seek for the Sega Genesis. You dont like the character, then dont buy or play the game. It's as simple as that.

I like music, but I won't listen to or buy Lady Gaga or Miley Cirrus. Not my kind of entertainment. And I dont complain that either is embarrassing. The same thing should apply to MGS V and Quiet.

The day when games are overwhelmed by political correctness is the day I quit gaming.


If you are embarrassed to play a game, then move out of your mom's basement and get a life.

Oh man we are checking all the boxes on this one lol.

 

[SarusGray]

There is nothing embarrassing about Quiet. To state so would be an absolute opinionated statement. So what if Quiet is scantily clad or if she gives snake the googly eyes. Hey if you dont like it, go play Barney's Hide and Seek for the Sega Genesis. You dont like the character, then dont buy or play the game. It's as simple as that.

I like music, but I won't listen to or buy Lady Gaga or Miley Cirrus. Not my kind of entertainment. And I dont complain that either is embarrassing. The same thing should apply to MGS V and Quiet.

The day when games are overwhelmed by political correctness is the day I quit gaming.


If you are embarrassed to play a game, then move out of your mom's basement and get a life.

what's with the aggressive tone? Both sides are making fair points while you're just insulting one side for the sake of it. That last tidbit was incredibly unnecessary.

 

[Murder. She Wrote]

There is nothing embarrassing about Quiet. To state so would be an absolute opinionated statement. So what if Quiet is scantily clad or if she gives snake the googly eyes. Hey if you dont like it, go play Barney's Hide and Seek for the Sega Genesis. You dont like the character, then dont buy or play the game. It's as simple as that.

I like music, but I won't listen to or buy Lady Gaga or Miley Cirrus. Not my kind of entertainment. And I dont complain that either is embarrassing. The same thing should apply to MGS V and Quiet.

The day when games are overwhelmed by political correctness is the day I quit gaming.


If you are embarrassed to play a game, then move out of your mom's basement and get a life.

Oh boy, what a post. If I didn't play a game because it had a character I didn't like in it I don't think I would play any games.

I can like or even love a game and still be embarrassed by a character or scene.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

There is nothing embarrassing about Quiet. To state so would be an absolute opinionated statement. So what if Quiet is scantily clad or if she gives snake the googly eyes. Hey if you dont like it, go play Barney's Hide and Seek for the Sega Genesis. You dont like the character, then dont buy or play the game. It's as simple as that.

I like music, but I won't listen to or buy Lady Gaga or Miley Cirrus. Not my kind of entertainment. And I dont complain that either is embarrassing. The same thing should apply to MGS V and Quiet.

The day when games are overwhelmed by political correctness is the day I quit gaming.


If you are embarrassed to play a game, then move out of your mom's basement and get a life.

This is hurting my brain.

 

[L95]

If you are embarrassed to play a game, then move out of your mom's basement and get a life.

More of a tangent than something substantial, but I always figured people 'with a life' would be more self-conscious/possibly embarrassed about their habits than 'basement dwellers'. In general, I'm sure there are exceptions on both sides.

 

[Shaanyboi]

There is nothing embarrassing about Quiet. To state so would be an absolute opinionated statement. So what if Quiet is scantily clad or if she gives snake the googly eyes. Hey if you dont like it, go play Barney's Hide and Seek for the Sega Genesis. You dont like the character, then dont buy or play the game. It's as simple as that.

I like music, but I won't listen to or buy Lady Gaga or Miley Cirrus. Not my kind of entertainment. And I dont complain that either is embarrassing. The same thing should apply to MGS V and Quiet.

The day when games are overwhelmed by political correctness is the day I quit gaming.


If you are embarrassed to play a game, then move out of your mom's basement and get a life.

"If you don't like it, don't play it" is a pretty damn lazy way to brush off discussion about what is unarguably one of this year's biggest releases.

Not to mention the half-dozen other brazen statements throughout this post.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Ive come to the conclusion that Quiet is one of the best characters of this year. I dont think any other character has generated discussion like she has.

 

[ponpo]

I thought the dust had settled.