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[K.Sabot]

So I've spent the majority of my weekend playing The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel, and it has a lot of great music.

I was in one of the dungeons and it had some pretty incredible, elder god tier dungeon music that I was constantly forced to chop up and stop by the strong B+ of a battle theme the game has.

This is a prevalent issue in many JRPGs, repetitive use of battle themes cutting into a song you'll only get to hear one time (usually cause it's only used in a single area). The constant switching of tone because they need to have a hype battle theme for when you are fighting, even if its the same one over and over. Just about every JRPG has this issue, and I find it infuriatingly easy to fix: just let the dungeon music keep playing, and stop ruining the momentum of your tone.

Tales of Zestiria, localized into english last year, was one of the first games I noticed that made a conscious decision to not play the battle theme over and over in very specific areas in the game, notably only when Go Shiina's music came up (talk about the team shitting on Sakuraba's tunes, geeze). They just let the dungeon music play over battles and not get constantly chopped apart, and they made for my favorite JRPG moments in the past few years. It was that simple, it felt fucking great to not have to listen to a new song every 25 seconds.


All I ask is that games in the future give us an option to not use the battle theme, maybe allow me to feel the grandiose wonder that the dungeon theme inspired for longer than 15 seconds.

 

[Lightning Count]

You'd be missing out on great stuff like this.

https://youtu.be/jONfsUCAARE

And this.

https://youtu.be/Ta5NhIf8crM

 

[K.Sabot]

It's hard to miss something that plays 500+ times a game, maybe let the rest of the music shine sometimes.

 

[Fandangox]

Don't play Xenoblade X.

It depends on the game, sometimes the battle theme really just works so damn well, that I feel it makes sense for it to interrupt whatever is happening when a battle comes up.

Either way, I feel interrupting battle themes make more sense on RPGs that take you to a different "Screen" because the battle mechanics are different from the overworld exploration (usually turn based games) Its just me, but playing TWEWY, It'd be kind of odd if the overworld music doesn't stop and new music doesn't start to play when one sees the character literally warp to the battle area.

Also another thing I haven't seen much, is just resuming the previous music from whenever it left off, I think Persona Q does that.

 

[wbEMX]

Ni no Kuni was pretty extreme. It only had one battle theme, except when boss battles or some special battles happened.

 

[Jay Sosa]

I'm ok with battle themes as long as there is some variation. But like you already said..in most JRPGs they make you listen to the same one or 2 songs over and over and over again until you get tired of it? Plus in most JRPGs the battle themes are annoying as hell (gotta have those shitty guitar riffs).

 

[Falk]

Ni no Kuni was pretty extreme. It only had one battle theme, except when boss battles or some special battles happened.

Hahah, this was an example I was gonna bring up.

Great article about it here from someone who's worked in the industry for a while. I completely agree that it really depends how it's implemented. Blinded By Light, for example, didn't really get old in large part because of how it was crafted and how much thought was put into the flow of the music.

http://www.designingmusicnow.com/2015/11/09/three-video-game-scoring-cliches/

 

[borborygmus]

Ni no Kuni was pretty extreme. It only had one battle theme, except when boss battles or some special battles happened.

Ni No Kuni's battle music was also lethargic as hell, especially the first 25 seconds of it. The battle system itself was pretty horrid, but that lethargic "dun dun dun dun dunnnnnnnn" at the start of each battle was something else.

 

[thetrin]

When there's no battle theme, battles feel...hollow. JRPGs would be poorer without battle themes.

 

[Kyzer]

I agree 100%

Even when I love the song its just too much.

They need to have as many different variations of the battle theme as there are a variety of locations.

 

[K.Sabot]

Don't play Xenoblade X.

It depends on the game, sometimes the battle theme really just works so damn well, that I feel it makes sense for it to interrupt whatever is happening when a battle comes up.

Either way, I feel interrupting battle themes make more sense on RPGs that take you to a different "Screen" because the battle mechanics are different from the overworld exploration (usually turn based games) Its just me, but playing TWEWY, It'd be kind of odd if the overworld music doesn't stop and new music doesn't start to play when one sees the character literally warp to the battle area.

Also another thing I haven't seen much, is just resuming the previous music from whenever it left off, I think Persona Q does that.

No worries about that, I played, finished, put 150 hours into X and the music was by far the worst part of the game. Ugh.

 

[Aters]

All the JRPGs that take you to another place in combat has the same problem.
Regarding this specific game, I actually started to play my own music at the later half the game, simply because I got bored with the soundtrack.

 

[Moobabe]

It's an MMO I know, but Final Fantasy XIV has this and it bothers me a lot. Sometimes I just want to listen to the field music - not battle music or the stupid chocobo theme on loop!

 

[spiritfox]

It's an SRPG, but the last 2 FEs did combat music well. It's just an upbeat version of the field music.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Persona 4 has the same problem. A 60 hour RPG should not have a 2CD soundtrack. No matter how good the music is, it's not that good after listening to it for so many times.

Didn't P3 FES have an option to change the theme? Not sure about P4. Or was that just for the dungeons...

 

[GasProblem]

I agree 100%

Even when I love the song its just too much.

They need to have as many different variations of the battle theme as there are a variety of locations.

Yup. I get making different themes for every area is a lot of work. But variations on the battle theme depending on what area you're in,snow, desert, jungle, swamps, whatever, would be nice and makes you not hate the battle theme after 60 hours.

 

[Team Filler]

On the one hand, I feel your argument is very compelling and I agree with it a great deal.


On the other hand, Clash on the Big Bridge is one of my all time favorite pieces of music, as are many other unique battle themes in many RPG's, and I would be sad to lose out on possible new ones.

 

[KainXVIII]

Yeah, FFIX just horrible in that department

Spoiler

hides

 

[Mman235]

The worst is when the battle theme resets the main level theme every single time; as long as that doesn't happen I'm usually okay with it depending on the quality of the battle theme.

 

[FSLink]

Well assuming the battle themes are good, I do like it when they implement multiple themes throughout the game.

But more RPGs should implement the ability to switch battle themes. Like the Tales of Radiant Mythology games.

Shoot, it'd even make some dumb DLC for the money grubbing publishers.

 

[Otakumegane]

I believe that nowadays, JRPGs that don't have battle transitions don't necessarily require battle specific music AS LONG AS IT'S GOOD.

The recent fire emblem games however I found have a pretty good solution to this by their way of "layering songs" for a field theme and a battle theme. This may not work for open world type games where you need a bunch of music for different areas, but with enough composers it might.

Examples.

Field Battle

Field
Battle

Now this is for generic battle only. I still want boss themes.

 

[Shahed]

It's an MMO I know, but Final Fantasy XIV has this and it bothers me a lot. Sometimes I just want to listen to the field music - not battle music or the stupid chocobo theme on loop!

Not sure about battles but you can disable mount music so no need to listen to the Chocobo theme. I turned it off straightaway, only to turn it back on when the Terra theme was added to magitek armour.

 

[Thoraxes]

ctrl+f belief

And I disagree about CS's normal battle theme. It's fantastic.

 

[Kyzer]

This is actually the reason I've been pining for a SFX BGM split in volume options for Pokemon. So I can just play my own music. Because sometimes you're , you know, hunting Pokemon to capture, and you hear the intro over and over and over, along with the CH CH CH CH from running

 

[Aters]

Didn't P3 FES have an option to change the theme? Not sure about P4. Or was that just for the dungeons...

The option is not that helpful when the pool to choose from is small.

 

[ponpo]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=912008

OG complainer about this thing.

 

[Meicyn]

ctrl+f belief

And I disagree about CS's normal battle theme. It's fantastic.

Totally agreed, Cold Steel's standard battle theme is pretty awesome, especially compared to Sky's jazz influenced battle theme.

 

[BocoDragon]

I love how FFXII just kept the overworld music playing, even as it went into battle. Of course this dictated the style of the overworld music, because it had to contain both "low emotion" and "intense emotion" sections woven through each of the overworld music tracks..... but I thought it worked very well.

It really aided my sense of immersion into the fantasy having the exploration and battle themes woven together. Having them separate makes me too aware I am playing a simple videogame. The old school transition into a separate battle theme really kills my immersion.

 

[Meia]

Didn't P3 FES have an option to change the theme? Not sure about P4. Or was that just for the dungeons...

Persona 3 had basically the same dungeon theme for however many floors Tartarus had, the music just changed ever so slightly. But yeah, Persona 3 you could change the exploring theme, not the battle theme.


For what it's worth, I remember Persona 4's music being a lot more memorable because there were parts where the music would align(quite by accident) with an all out attack to end the battle. Just thought the overall battle music was good, even if it meant you almost never got to the hear the actual lyrics of a dungeon theme like Heaven.


Persona 4 Golden added a second main battle theme, but since that only played if you didn't have an advantage you were doing things wrong if you ever heard it. I wish more games would at least have the dungeon music pick off where it left off after a battle. Most JRPGs that have a steady battle theme usually have a victory theme to bridge the two, after all.

 

[Just take it with you.]

I'm generally okay with the idea of a battle theme, but I wish more games had multiple regular battle themes, since you tend to hear them so much.

 

[Eumi]

The World Ends With You has about 30 different battle themes that cycle in and out over the course of the game. Every chapter (about an hour long each once the game gets going) has a new rotation of songs, and new ones cycle in as old ones leave. It's not a necessity by any means, but stuff like this is super nice, at least when the music is good.

 

[magnetic]

Well assuming the battle themes are good, I do like it when they implement multiple themes throughout the game.

But more RPGs should implement the ability to switch battle themes. Like the Tales of Radiant Mythology games.

Shoot, it'd even make some dumb DLC for the money grubbing publishers.

YES. I would love being able to choose battle themes, maybe after a certain point in the game.

 

[Ogawa-san]

For games (and a dev) with such great music, TitS FC and SC had some baffingly elevator music as regular battle themes. I thought FC wasn't good but SC had even worse. Looks like CS didn't break the tradition.

From the top of my head, Persona 4 would greatly benefit from that option. If it had it, we wouldn't have to listen to the first 15s of Heaven over and over...

 

[Teknoman]

SMT main series, Digital Devil Saga, and Grandia have it right with multiple battle themes depending on the situation (surprise, normal conditions, etc).

Also battle themes are integral to jrpgs.

 

[Aters]

I love how FFXII just kept the overworld music playing, even as it went into battle. Of course this dictated the style of the overworld music, because it had to contain both "low emotion" and "intense emotion" sections woven through each of the overworld music tracks..... but I thought it worked very well.

It really aided my sense of immersion into the fantasy having the exploration and battle themes woven together. Having them separate makes me too aware I am playing a simple videogame. The old school transition into a separate battle really kills my immersion.

FF12's soundtrack is so underrated. It's not that impressive as standalone music, but it works extremely well in game. My favourtite one in the series.

 

[Matt Attack]

I definitely see where you're coming from, and would love an option to disable the battle theme in more games. Cold Steel is actually an interesting example because there are a few sections in the game where the dungeon music does replace the regular battle theme (with the earliest example being the opening of the game). It's a shame they didn't do it more frequently, although I do still like the default theme.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Usually the battle music doesn't bother me. Except for boss fights, they go pretty fast anyway.

But sometimes there is a song like blue dragon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUjxPj3al5U

My god that song was so annoying during boss battles because they were long. And the shame is there are some parts of the song that aren't bad.

 

[JediLink]

OP I find it difficult to choose one side or the other in this debate. Letting the dungeon music play is good, but JRPGs still need battle themes. You couldn't just completely remove them. If there's a way to compromise between the two I don't know what it is.

 

[K.Sabot]

For games (and a dev) with such great music, TitS FC and SC had some baffingly elevator music as regular battle themes. I thought FC wasn't good but SC had even worse. Looks like CS didn't break the tradition.

From the top of my head, Persona 4 would greatly benefit from that option. If it had it, we wouldn't have to listen to the first 15s of Heaven over and over...

Oh god that is the absolute best example.

"Man it's sad feeling time, this dungeon's music is great tho- I FACE OUT I HOLD OUT I REACH OUT TO THE TRUUUUUUUUTH"

 

[K.Sabot]

OP I find it difficult to choose one side or the other in this debate. Letting the dungeon music play is good, but JRPGs still need battle themes. You couldn't just completely remove them. If there's a way to compromise between the two I don't know what it is.

I think it's a matter of understanding when you've got a great piece of music and not feeling, as the person who gets to decide these sort of things, that you have to be absolutely consistent in placing the importance of having a battle theme above it.

Tales of Zestiria's trial dungeons were perfect, the only real times outside of another few uses of Go Shiina's music that they let his tunes overrule the battle theme. They fucking knew that his music was too godlike to cover it up, that or he had a deal in place that his music was not to be interrupted.

 

[Jawbreaker]

Hahah, this was an example I was gonna bring up.

Great article about it here from someone who's worked in the industry for a while. I completely agree that it really depends how it's implemented. Blinded By Light, for example, didn't really get old in large part because of how it was crafted and how much thought was put into the flow of the music.

http://www.designingmusicnow.com/2015/11/09/three-video-game-scoring-cliches/

Great article. Thanks for posting it.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

It's awesome when it changes after a major plot point. See: Tales games from Symphonia -> Xillia. Graces also changes based on location, I believe. Can't remember Zestiria's music for the life of me, so I dunno about that one.

 

[Transistor]

I love how FFXII just kept the overworld music playing, even as it went into battle. Of course this dictated the style of the overworld music, because it had to contain both "low emotion" and "intense emotion" sections woven through each of the overworld music tracks..... but I thought it worked very well.

It really aided my sense of immersion into the fantasy having the exploration and battle themes woven together. Having them separate makes me too aware I am playing a simple videogame. The old school transition into a separate battle theme really kills my immersion.

God we need that FFXIIIZJSHD ASAP

 

[Datschge]

I think the best approach to battle themes would be handling them like character themes, just for the enemies. If it's a strong or unique enemy he does deserve a fitting aural cue. If it's just grubs that you can finish off within seconds keep the map music playing.

Edit: Come to think of it, this is essentially the Souls approach (just that their unsafe traversal environments contain no music).

 

[Talax]

I like how Kingdom Hearts does it. A battle theme for every area, inspired by the main theme of that world so that it flows naturally between the two.

 

[Datschge]

Tales of Zestiria's trial dungeons were perfect

They were more a showcase of botched sound direction imo. The music were fine for battles, but as general dungeon exploration music they were way too epic and bombast (or the trial dungeon themselves way to un-epic) to really fit together.

 

[striferser]

Best part about atelier series (at least the arland trilogy+) you can change normal, special, and boss battle theme

 

[K.Sabot]

They were more a showcase of botched sound direction imo. The music were fine for battles, but as general dungeon exploration music they were way too epic and bombast (or the trial dungeon themselves way to un-epic) to really fit together.

I would argue that in the context of not just the rest of the game, but the entire series, the trial dungeons were on another level in terms of scale and bombasticness that warranted some fucking crazy Go Shiina song that refused to be interrupted. Sure, it's a severely middle budget JRPG, you aren't gonna have the graphics match the music anytime soon, but it felt like a whole new level to a person who has been invested in the series since Symphonia.

 

[Datschge]

I would argue that in the context of not just the rest of the game, but the entire series, the trial dungeons were on another level in terms of scale and bombasticness that warranted some fucking crazy Go Shiina song that refused to be interrupted. Sure, it's a severely middle budget JRPG, you aren't gonna have the graphics match the music anytime soon, but it felt like a whole new level to a person who has been invested in the series since Symphonia.

Are you sure you don't mix up the cause with the effect there? The dungeons weren't anything special really.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

FFXIIIZJSHD ASAP