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Original Ghost in the Shell director Mamoru Oshii defends ScarJo playing Major

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The people complaining the loudest about whitewashing are not people in the existing GitS fanbase. The existing GitS fanbase has more important concerns with how this adaptation may be handled than the Major's perceived race.

There is absolutely no basis for this assumption whatsoever. Not to mention it flies in the face of logic. The people in the existing GITS fanbase are probably the ones complaining the most, if any, because they're most familiar with the series and its blatantly Japanese origins and main character.
 

Zoe

Member
OK.

What happened in these talks? Auditioning is "talks".

My work can be in "talks" to get business IE someone calls and wants a quote. Like... it's as substantial as you want it to be but you gotta have something concrete to say she was front-runner for a bit. (I know you didn't say front-runner but you get what I mean).

So... like... sources?

Negotiating is also "talks"--schedule, pay.

There are assumptions being made everywhere, even by you. How do you know that there were any auditions held at all?

Information leaked in September 3rd that year about Margot Robbie. There was never any mention of Scarlett Johansson having anything to do with the movie until October 17th.
 
Negotiating is also "talks"--schedule, pay.

There are assumptions being made everywhere, even by you. How do you know that there were any auditions held at all?

Information leaked in September 3rd that year about Margot Robbie. There was never any mention of Scarlett Johansson having anything to do with the movie until October 17th.

I don't know there were any auditions at all. All I know is Margot Robbie was interested in the role and Paramount never offered it to her for reasons no one knows other than "she was in Suicide Squad so she must have been their first choice but they missed the opportunity!"

I'm pointing out the silliness of how certain some of y'all are with the word "talks". And then you have the gall to say "are you new to Hollywood?"
 
Bullshit. It's nothing but shaming. The discussion isn't about any pervy things that may be in the manga or any other works he has done but thats what it's always turns to. Here we are talking about whitewashing in hollywood. If Shirow was asked about it do you really think he is going to side step the question and start talking about w tails cat? I honestly find it insulting. You people are basically saying that shirow must be some idiot who is incapable of a thoughtful opinion cause he also makes smut as well. I mean it's not like he created the themes and ideas in the Ghost in the Shell.

I based my faith on Shirow's creative input on the last thing he personally released that was called "Ghost in the Shell" which was boring fetish fuel. Even if the post I was referencing wasn't a joke (and it kinda was) I think the spirit in which it is delivered at least intersects with what I think of the value of going back to your dirty old grandad for an opinion on a creation that has long since outgrown him. Call it 'shaming' if you like, Shirow's a hack in 2017.
 
Dude is out of touch and lacks any sort of cultural context on what people are criticising the movie for

If you are going to use this argument. You have to step back and take a look at what audience is this movie targeting. This movie is not made for American domestic consumption only.

BTW I don't remember GAF cry fault when Hollywood use a full Chinese cast in "Memoirs of a Geisha" movie based on a novel written by an America.
 

Dice//

Banned
PSY・S;232560336 said:
He isn't the original creator.

Whatever, he did the movie people remember. Still interesting to hear input from a source close to the material, whether or not I agree with the reasons.
 

Akainu

Member
Whatever, he did the movie people remember. Still interesting to hear input from a source close to the material, whether or not I agree with the reasons.

With the characters and plot he didn't create.

I based my faith on Shirow's creative input on the last thing he personally released that was called "Ghost in the Shell" which was boring fetish fuel. Even if the post I was referencing wasn't a joke (and it kinda was) I think the spirit in which it is delivered at least intersects with what I think of the value of going back to your dirty old grandad for an opinion on a creation that has long since outgrown him. Call it 'shaming' if you like, Shirow's a hack in 2017.
Geez i get that you may not like his artbooks but hack seems a bit harsh.

Also I'm pretty sure he worked on 1.5 and 2 at the same time 1.5 being less pervy but I doubt you care really.
 

- J - D -

Member
The people complaining the loudest about whitewashing are not people in the existing GitS fanbase. The existing GitS fanbase has more important concerns with how this adaptation may be handled than the Major's perceived race.

the "existing" Gits fanbase have already resigned themselves to the reality that Hollywood has entirely missed the point of the original work(s). Again. And going by the trailers and snippets from the art book, it wouldn't be an entirely unfounded feeling of apathy.

So once you accept that, the only other issue is the casting.
 
I based my faith on Shirow's creative input on the last thing he personally released that was called "Ghost in the Shell" which was boring fetish fuel. Even if the post I was referencing wasn't a joke (and it kinda was) I think the spirit in which it is delivered at least intersects with what I think of the value of going back to your dirty old grandad for an opinion on a creation that has long since outgrown him. Call it 'shaming' if you like, Shirow's a hack in 2017.

You got to be fucking kidding me. The original manga series has a lot more cyberpunk favors in it, much more so than the first anime movie. Only the GITS SAC TV series give proper attention to the cyberpunk elements.

Shirow haven't put out series work in years doesn't mean the GITS manga is not good.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You said the only reason this is even being made is scarjo.

Do you have evidence that they put money into the movie while another actress was attached, or any of the other inferences on top of inferences you are relying on?
 
There is absolutely no basis for this assumption whatsoever. Not to mention it flies in the face of logic. The people in the existing GITS fanbase are probably the ones complaining the most, if any, because they're most familiar with the series and its blatantly Japanese origins and main character.

I've posted at least once in most of these GiTS threads and I voiced my concerns for the whitewashing. But it is more concerning to me that they're changing the narrative than anything else.

I'm so conflicted, I go back and forth between seeing this day one in theaters or just waiting for the rental. If the movie looked like shit, it'd be an easy decision but they have the visuals down pact. I'm just not happy with the story.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I can only sense a political motive from the people opposing it, and I believe artistic expression must be free from politics[
Wtf do you call the long ass speech at the end of GITS then???? Or even GITS as a concept, literally the name is political. -______-
 

DJChuy

Member
Dude should've just stopped after the first paragraph.

I understand why ScarJo was cast, and I'm okay with it. It looks like a risky, big-budget movie, so they wanted a big name to draw the most audiences possible - who knows if she's actually a draw but Lucy did well.

There's no Japanese actress whose big enough to draw audiences which is a problem, and sure you could say this could've been the opportunity to create a big star. However GitS seems pretty niche, and with a Japanese lead, the movie would've had a lesser budget and possibly overlooked.

Hopefully this movie becomes a success as it could open up more GitS projects and possibly one closer to the source material.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
There is absolutely no basis for this assumption whatsoever. Not to mention it flies in the face of logic. The people in the existing GITS fanbase are probably the ones complaining the most, if any, because they're most familiar with the series and its blatantly Japanese origins and main character.

It's a concern, but probably not the largest. Motoko's identity issues concern her status as a full cyborg. That's what people see her as. That's going to play a bigger part in her identity and how people see her. There's much worse ways that the movie can fail to represent the franchise than the race of the main character. This is what concerns fans the most.

Meanwhile, here's a Gizmondo article that adresses the whitewashing concerns. It got passed around a fair bit.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/powerful-video-shows-why-ghost-in-the-shell-whitewashin-1792972892

The article spells the Major's name as Mokoto, not Motoko. Whoops.
 

wandering

Banned
It's a concern, but probably not the largest. Motoko's identity issues concern her status as a full cyborg. That's what people see her as. That's going to play a bigger part in her identity and how people see her. There's much worse ways that the movie can fail to represent the franchise than the race of the main character. This is what concerns fans the most.

Meanwhile, here's a Gizmondo article that adresses the whitewashing concerns. It got passed around a fair bit.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/powerful-video-shows-why-ghost-in-the-shell-whitewashin-1792972892

The article spells the Major's name as Mokoto, not Motoko. Whoops.

Are you trying to make the point that a typo somehow invalidates their concern?

Like how you typed Gizmondo instead of Gizmodo?
 

anaron

Member
It's a concern, but probably not the largest. Motoko's identity issues concern her status as a full cyborg. That's what people see her as. That's going to play a bigger part in her identity and how people see her. There's much worse ways that the movie can fail to represent the franchise than the race of the main character. This is what concerns fans the most.

Meanwhile, here's a Gizmondo article that adresses the whitewashing concerns. It got passed around a fair bit.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/powerful-video-shows-why-ghost-in-the-shell-whitewashin-1792972892

The article spells the Major's name as Mokoto, not Motoko. Whoops.

God that PSA video's execution is embarrassingly horrible.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Are you trying to make the point that a typo somehow invalidates their concern?

Like how you typed Gizmondo instead of Gizmodo?

Oh irony. =(

To be clear, I'm not saying whitewashing is not a problem. I would have preferred an Asian actress in the role. But as a huge GitS fan, I think there's much more egregious problems that may emerge in the movie that make whitewashing concerns much more minor in comparison. And this is not exactly "Tom Hanks as the Last Nigga on Earth".

My point about the Gizmodo article was more about how the people complaining the loudest about the whitewashing are not necessarily fans of the original work. There's this segment of people that are looking at the whitewashing issue from a broader higher-level perspective of Hollywood trends and they are the ones that keep raising the issue.
 

Dice//

Banned
With the characters and plot he didn't create.

Right. I'm working with what I got, till masamune shirow comments we won't know the whole picture. I'm still agreeing in premise, the white-washing sucks, and it's a shame it's treated to nonchalantly in some circles.
 

Trokil

Banned
The people complaining the loudest about whitewashing are not people in the existing GitS fanbase. The existing GitS fanbase has more important concerns with how this adaptation may be handled than the Major's perceived race.

Most people talking about this movie have no idea what the Ghost in the Shell universe is even about. They complain for example about the line, that she is the first full cyborg, which she was already in the OVA, about the race, which was already addressed in the Manga. Pretty much the first thing in the Manga about the Major is, that she is a construct, fake name, fake identity, she is described as somebody with a female cyborg body. So in the Manga even the gender is not really something of importance and again in the OVA it is suggested that she could take a male body if necessary.

So nobody can really argue, that anybody who knows the source material has an issue with the race of the Major, when the whole universe behind the movie is about the fact, that neither gender nor race are important anymore. The puppet master in the Anime even argued, that not even a body is necessary to have a soul. This is a made up story by people with no connection to the movie or the universe. Else they would never argue with a point which is against the whole idea of the movie and the Ghost in the Shell canon.

But people are now so invested into this, this is now the hill to die on.
 

wandering

Banned
So nobody can really argue, that anybody who knows the source material has an issue with the race of the Major, when the whole universe behind the movie is about the fact, that neither gender nor race are important anymore.

The Major's body aside, all these megafans talking about the world being postracial sure do seem to be forgetting the film's title card...

In the near future: Corporate networks reach out to the stars, electrons and light flow throughout the universe. - The advance of computerisation, however, has not yet wiped out nations and ethnic groups
 
The Major's body aside, all these megafans talking about the world being postracial sure do seem to be forgetting the film's title card...

Yeah there's also the fact that in 2nd Gig the main conflict is hugely due to a refugee crisis in Japan and a rise in distrust against those refugees. Identity has always played a huge role in GITS.
 

Trokil

Banned
Yeah there's also the fact that in 2nd Gig the main conflict is hugely due to a refugee crisis in Japan and a rise in distrust against those refugees. Identity has always played a huge role in GITS.

Yes, but it also the point, identity is arbitrary in a universe in which you can construct everything.
 

Akainu

Member
Yes, but it also the point, identity is arbitrary in a universe in which you can construct everything.

Except it's not and makes holding onto your identity even more important. Would do you call being concerned if you are even human anymore? But I guess that only matter when race is involved.
 
BTW I don't remember GAF cry fault when Hollywood use a full Chinese cast in "Memoirs of a Geisha" movie based on a novel written by an America.

What? First of all, Memoirs of a Geisha had a mainly Japanese cast...

Second, the movie takes place in Japan, as does Ghost in the Shell, so you would expect Japanese people to feature prominently.

What does the author's nationality have to do with anything?
 

Trokil

Banned
Except it's not and makes holding onto your identity even more important. Would do you call being concerned if you are even human anymore? But I guess that only matter when race is involved.

That is what the Major is struggling in the Kuze arc it is revealed her body was not her body for most of her life. That is also why she has problems not fading away her identity is artificial, she changed her body several times, her childhood body was the first, something somebody else made.

What? First of all, Memoirs of a Geisha had a mainly Japanese cast...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397535/?ref_=nv_sr_2

well, also there are several Japanese actors, Takeshi Kitano for example
 

Nepenthe

Member
Major's body having been changed in the past is a bit of a disingenuous argument.

Again, Thermian argument- people concerned with her identity are concerned with the meta context of what a whitewashed GitS movie means for Asian American actors, and no amount of appealing to canon will actually go towards properly answering these questions.

Second, even if one were to take these arguments at face value, we all know that despite Major's ability to transfer her consciousness to different bodies, she nonetheless has a distinctly iconic look that was paramount in even casting ScarJo in the first place. That was the majority of the defense from both eastern and western fans in the first place: "Well, she looks like Major, so I don't see the problem!" But is Major not supposed to look like anything since identity is arbitrary? Hmmmmm.

In short, if Major was suddenly in the shell of a black man or a Zoomer Dog or something I guarantee you a dime to a dollar the "real fans" would have flipped their ever-loving shit regardless of how this apparently wouldn't infringe upon the "real themes" of the franchise.
 

Trokil

Banned
This is already all the Major, there is no " distinctly iconic look", Scarlett likes like the anime version, that is about it.

2ae5845ad7341da0afba0e9c1de4a56e.jpg
 
The people complaining the loudest about whitewashing are not people in the existing GitS fanbase. The existing GitS fanbase has more important concerns with how this adaptation may be handled than the Major's perceived race.

I'm interested in hearing why you think this. Yes, a portion of the people who are against the casting might not be GitS fans specifically and may just have issued with Hollywood's ongoing issues with overlooking minorities as leads — but its naive to state that the fanbase doesn't legitimately share those concerns as a part of their other concerns with the film.

Anecdotally, I have problems with whitewashing, with minorities being overlooked and Hollywood's lack of effort in building them up and general representation of minorities in media. However, I also have issues with ScarJo herself, the prospect of the Major just being another Black Widow/ Lucy if not handled well, the swapping out of the Japanese aspect to the film, the risk of turning Kuze into something he never was, and the fact that the movie will basically be Robocop but dressed up in an amalgam of shreds torn from the movie and from SAC.
 

Trokil

Banned
C'mon son. They're all variations of the same design that is endemic to the character of "Major" a la:

Different eye colors, different bodies, different faces, different hairstyles, not even the skin is always the same. Sonic does not change from blue to red and Mickey wears the same thing for decades even in the same colors
 

Nepenthe

Member
Different eye colors, different bodies, different faces, different hairstyles, not even the skin is always the same.

But they all seem to ever be rendered as a light-skinned woman with a blank, somewhat terse expression, and domed poofy purple/blu-ish hair with sideburns. Man, the Major is like the Thing. You can't ever really tell what she'll look like on a given day.

Sonic does not change from blue to red and Mickey wears the same thing for decades even in the same colors

Sonic's blue coloring, eye color, body proportions, shoe type and details, gloves, and his accessories or lack thereof have changed far more times over the years than Major has, and Major is older than Sonic. Subsequently, no one was ever really confused about who that blue hedgehog was because he has a few iconic markers... like being a blue Hedgehog. Same goes for Mickey, whose eye shape, ear positioning, coloring, shoe type, hand shape, body proportions, and gloves have also changed over the years too. These are all far more numerous and noticeable changes than what you've noted with Major, which makes me think you're taking the piss here and acting like no one knows what she looks like.
 

sk3

Banned
I'm interested in hearing why you think this. Yes, a portion of the people who are against the casting might not be GitS fans specifically and may just have issued with Hollywood's ongoing issues with overlooking minorities as leads — but its naive to state that the fanbase doesn't legitimately share those concerns as a part of their other concerns with the film.

Anecdotally, I have problems with whitewashing, with minorities being overlooked and Hollywood's lack of effort in building them up and general representation of minorities in media. However, I also have issues with ScarJo herself, the prospect of the Major just being another Black Widow/ Lucy if not handled well, the swapping out of the Japanese aspect to the film, the risk of turning Kuze into something he never was, and the fact that the movie will basically be Robocop but dressed up in an amalgam of shreds torn from the movie and from SAC.
Because the race of a cyborg is the least interesting and relevant things in the entire gits story, which makes it one of the least important things that fans are worried about them "screwing up".
 

Breakage

Member
Isn't Japan a place where white Western ideals of beauty are held in high esteem (like many other parts of Asia)? His comments aren't surprising.
 

Akainu

Member
This is already all the Major, there is no " distinctly iconic look", Scarlett likes like the anime version, that is about it.

2ae5845ad7341da0afba0e9c1de4a56e.jpg
I'm confused. Do you except different artist to all draw the exact same? Also 3 and 4 going from left to right are the same there is just wind in the scene and different lighting.
 
Isn't Japan a place where white Western ideals of beauty are held in high esteem (like many other parts of Asia)? His comments aren't surprising.

Yes. Personally I believe that it can happen due to decades of hollywood/media "ideal" of white beauty combined with any culture where colourism is a thing.
 

firelogic

Member
Yeah he's kinda right and if anyone's opinion on the subject matters it's his.

The man just said John Wayne playing Genghis Khan was totally fine so why not ScarJo in GitS. His opinion doesn't matter at all.

As for why ScarJo was cast, it's quite obvious. The studio wanted to make money. But the thing here is a prime example of a catch-22. Hollywood doesn't want to cast Asian actors because big enough names don't exist which means no one will go to watch the movies. But if Hollywood doesn't cast any Asian actors, how are they going to become popular and draw crowds?

If they do cast an Asian lead, it's some terrible little movie that no one would have watched even if the most popular white actor was in it. Then they cite that as evidence of Asian leads not working.

Not to mention how Asian actors have traditionally been portrayed in popular media. Either they're socially awkward geeks (bully fodder or friend of a popular kid), non-English speaking menial workers (convenience store clerk, janitor, rundown restaurant cook), or highly educated assholes (jerk lawyer/doctor/judge).
 
Outrage culture BTFO

I don't want to dissuade you from sharing whatever beliefs you have, dissenting opinion is the lifeblood of a discussion board etc...

but after digging through your post history, I'll warn you that you might want to be more careful in how you convey yourself. Or you might find that GAF isn't really the place for you.
 
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