• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Original Ghost in the Shell director Mamoru Oshii defends ScarJo playing Major

Status
Not open for further replies.
Looking at the whole situation from a purely artistic point of view, he might be right. Honestly.

But you can't just ignore the social issues of the American film industry. Too many people can't look at the whole thing holistically and I think that's where so many issues crop up. At least, that's what I hope.
 

Jotaka

Member
Isn't Japan a place where white Western ideals of beauty are held in high esteem (like many other parts of Asia)? His comments aren't surprising.


Please define 'white Western ideals of beauty'.

Outrage culture BTFO

If you gonna shitpost

TumzBhF.jpg
 

Somnid

Member
This issue is too overgeneralized. It's not about Asians, it's about Asian Americans, the ones who have to live and deal with being in America, the ones who might have weakened cultural identity from being generations past immigration but still don't represent the American idealism, the ones who don't get cast in Hollywood or are type cast to martial arts stereotypes. Basically it was an opportunity of good faith and Hollywood passed on it, the source material and where it came from isn't really important.

It's not about being Japanese, they don't care, they love that someone is making a big budget movie using Japanese material because that adds to their own soft-power. They don't have cultural identity problems, they don't face discrimination, they don't get passed over for jobs because they are the equivalent of "white-people" in their own country. They do the same thing with non-Japanese and you probably don't care about the white guy getting passed over because unless you live there and see the inversion of power every day it's not something you think about.
 

Trokil

Banned
In Man Machine Interface manga she was way different

Yes, she also changes in the Anime, but I was lazy and took a picture from the internet.

This issue is too overgeneralized. It's not about Asians, it's about Asian Americans, the ones who have to live and deal with being in America, the ones who might have weakened cultural identity from being generations past immigration but still don't represent the American idealism, the ones who don't get cast in Hollywood or are type cast to martial arts stereotypes. Basically it was an opportunity of good faith and Hollywood passed on it, the source material and where it came from isn't really important.

So, you are saying making a political statement is more important then anything else, it is not even about the movie.
 

nacimento

Member
Well, he probably thinks it's really cool that the star of his movies hollywood adaptation is one of hollywood's big stars, so there is that for him as well.
 

cvxfreak

Member
I'm a non-Japanese Asian American who's lived in Japan for almost 10 years. My graduate thesis was actually about the perceptions of Asian-Americans/Canadians in Japan.

I'm not going to condone any particular viewpoint one way or another, but here is why I think it's difficult for most Japanese people to immediately sympathize with the argument made by Asian-Americans for more representation in Hollywood:

Japanese rarely if ever group themselves in with other Asians
In Japan, you are a foreigner whether you're from Korea or Zimbabwe. Pan-Asianism is an idea that pretty much died out at the end of World War II. Some of the more cynical people in Japan might even view the Asian-American argument as other Asians (Chinese, Korean, Filipino, etc.) trying to take credit for something engineered by the Japanese. When Memoirs of a Geisha came out starring Chinese actresses, the lack of authenticity was noted. Inversely, Japanese people tend not to take credit for that was invented in other Asian countries in modern times because they genuinely believe it has nothing to do with them. Asian-American or Pan-Asian solidarity just isn't a common concept here.

The Japanese don't like fiddling in the politics or social issues of other countries.
Many people here prescribe to the reggienotmyproblem.gif mentality. Japan is the only developed country not to have officially expressed a particular viewpoint on things like Trump's Muslim ban or Duterte's drug war. As a Western-made movie based on a Japanese concept, many feel that the handover has been made and that anything that happens is exclusively a foreign problem. That goes for the plight of Asian-Americans, perceived or otherwise. Even Japanese-American internment during World War II fails to resonate in Japan as a topic of social struggle and few are outwardly sympathetic, if at all. Which brings me to my next point: many Japanese consider Japanese-Americans as foreigners/outsiders in certain senses. I personally think this is changing somewhat as Japanese who leave now tend to maintain stronger connections with their home country, but to unilaterally shoulder the Japanese with the responsibility of ensuring Asian-American representation in their pop culture isn't the right approach.


As an Asian-American, I personally wish for more representation and there are times when I actually even feel resentment toward things I perceive as white privilege or whatever you want to call it. But at the same time, expecting them to immediately understand the issue and agree with our viewpoint is little more than an American viewpoint getting pushed onto another country without proper contextualization and itself can be seen as a form of cultural imperialism. It's not such a clear cut issue.
 
This issue is too overgeneralized. It's not about Asians, it's about Asian Americans, the ones who have to live and deal with being in America, the ones who might have weakened cultural identity from being generations past immigration but still don't represent the American idealism, the ones who don't get cast in Hollywood or are type cast to martial arts stereotypes. Basically it was an opportunity of good faith and Hollywood passed on it, the source material and where it came from isn't really important.

It's not about being Japanese, they don't care, they love that someone is making a big budget movie using Japanese material because that adds to their own soft-power. They don't have cultural identity problems, they don't face discrimination, they don't get passed over for jobs because they are the equivalent of "white-people" in their own country. They do the same thing with non-Japanese and you probably don't care about the white guy getting passed over because unless you live there and see the inversion of power every day it's not something you think about.

Well future Hollywood movies are not going use Asian American actors, future Hollywood tentpole movie that aim for the international market will use popular Chinese actors who work in China. And Indian actor etc etc.
 
So, you are saying making a political statement is more important then anything else, it is not even about the movie.
It's sad that if they had casted a Japanese American actress that it would have become a political statement to you rather than appropriate.
 
I'm a non-Japanese Asian American who's lived in Japan for almost 10 years. My graduate thesis was actually about the perceptions of Asian-Americans/Canadians in Japan.

I'm not going to condone any particular viewpoint one way or another, but here is why I think it's difficult for most Japanese people to immediately sympathize with the argument made by Asian-Americans for more representation in Hollywood:

Japanese rarely if ever group themselves in with other Asians
In Japan, you are a foreigner whether you're from Korea or Zimbabwe. Pan-Asianism is an idea that pretty much died out at the end of World War II. Some of the more cynical people in Japan might even view the Asian-American argument as other Asians (Chinese, Korean, Filipino, etc.) trying to take credit for something engineered by the Japanese. When Memoirs of a Geisha came out starring Chinese actresses, the lack of authenticity was noted. Inversely, Japanese people tend not to take credit for that was invented in other Asian countries in modern times because they genuinely believe it has nothing to do with them. Asian-American or Pan-Asian solidarity just isn't a common concept here.

The Japanese don't like fiddling in the politics or social issues of other countries.
Many people here prescribe to the reggienotmyproblem.gif mentality. Japan is the only developed country not to have officially expressed a particular viewpoint on things like Trump's Muslim ban or Duterte's drug war. As a Western-made movie based on a Japanese concept, many feel that the handover has been made and that anything that happens is exclusively a foreign problem. That goes for the plight of Asian-Americans, perceived or otherwise. Even Japanese-American internment during World War II fails to resonate in Japan as a topic of social struggle and few are outwardly sympathetic, if at all. Which brings me to my next point: many Japanese consider Japanese-Americans as foreigners/outsiders in certain senses. I personally think this is changing somewhat as Japanese who leave now tend to maintain stronger connections with their home country, but to unilaterally shoulder the Japanese with the responsibility of ensuring Asian-American representation in their pop culture isn't the right approach.


As an Asian-American, I personally wish for more representation and there are times when I actually even feel resentment toward things I perceive as white privilege or whatever you want to call it. But at the same time, expecting them to immediately understand the issue and agree with our viewpoint is little more than an American viewpoint getting pushed onto another country without proper contextualization and itself can be seen as a form of cultural imperialism. It's not such a clear cut issue.

Great post.
 

Trokil

Banned
It's sad that if they had casted a Japanese American actress that it would have become a political statement to you rather than appropriate.

Any actress could play the major that is the point of Ghost in the Shell. This is the wrong movie to make this the posterboy of this discussion. When in comes to the canon of the movie, there is no problem in casting Scarlett.

If you want to have this discussion, it is only political, not based on the movie or the fiction itself. So of course for Ghost in the Shell fans, it is not really an important factor as long as the movie is good.
 
Any actress could play the major that is the point of Ghost in the Shell. This is the wrong movie to make this the posterboy of this discussion. When in comes to the canon of the movie, there is no problem in casting Scarlett.

If you want to have this discussion, it is only political, not based on the movie or the fiction itself. So of course for Ghost in the Shell fans, it is not really an important factor as long as the movie is good.
Convenient how this any actress argument always somehow defaults to white
 

Whompa02

Member
Looking at the whole situation from a purely artistic point of view, he might be right. Honestly.

But you can't just ignore the social issues of the American film industry. Too many people can't look at the whole thing holistically and I think that's where so many issues crop up. At least, that's what I hope.

He is right. It's unfortunate but he's 150% in the right.

If we remove the political climate that Hollywood, the media, and the general public all culminated into, and just looked at this from an artistic standpoint (which we should all be doing) then he's right.

The problem is culture. We attach a responsibility and onus on artistic projects. It's not what anyone should be doing, at all, but people love to do that. We love to mold pieces of art that fit our own narratives.

Hopefully the actual movie is good. Personally, I recognize the problem in Hollywood, but I feel as if Paramount should be well within their right to do anything they want.
 
The one way I will be Ok with it is if near the end her body gets destroyed and she wakes up in a hospitle with a entirely new body and that assuming sequals and that the film is good enough to deserve sequals.
 

Glass Rebel

Member
He is right. It's unfortunate but he's 150% in the right.

If we remove the political climate that Hollywood, the media, and the general public all culminated into, and just looked at this from an artistic standpoint (which we should all be doing) then he's right.

The problem is culture. We attach a responsibility and onus on artistic projects. It's not what anyone should be doing, at all, but people love to do that. We love to mold pieces of art that fit our own narratives.

Hopefully the actual movie is good. Personally, I recognize the problem in Hollywood, but I feel as if Paramount should be well within their right to do anything they want.

Why should we remove this film out of its context? Why shouldn't we attach a responsibility on products that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make and are supposed to bring in even more? How is anyone taking away Paramount's right to do whatever they want (which they are)?
 

Whompa02

Member
Why should we remove this film out of its context? Why shouldn't we attach a responsibility on products that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make and are supposed to bring in even more? How is anyone taking away Paramount's right to do whatever they want (which they are)?

Because we contextualized it. We contextualize everything and attach politics to everything.

Films are not politics. Films are films. Films are pieces of art.
 

Whompa02

Member
Films and art don't exist in a bubble. Politics influence everything whether you like it or not.

And I'm not debating that. You actually just said the same thing. I'm saying people need to learn how to understand and respect the separation.

Artistic expression needs to be respected outside of the political sphere.
 
And I'm not debating that. You actually just said the same thing. I'm saying people need to learn how to understand and respect the separation.

Artistic expression needs to be respected outside of the political sphere.

The actual expression of the art is saying something though, usually political. That's kinda the point of art.
 

Glass Rebel

Member
Because we contextualized it. We contextualize everything and attach politics to everything.

Films are not politics. Films are films. Films are pieces of art.

Yes, that's the result of releasing art to the public for the purpose of consumption and entertainment. If you don't want your art to be contextualized (or criticized) don't release it.
 

Whompa02

Member
The actual expression of the art is saying something though, usually political. That's kinda the point of art.

Yes. As an artist myself, I fully understand this. "Most art is political" is a false statement though. Sometimes it's not used as a deliberate tool to influence an idea. Sometimes it is.

Are we still talking about GITS now though? Seems like this has detracted.

Yes, that's the result of releasing art to the public for the purpose of consumption and entertainment. If you don't want your art to be contextualized (or criticized) don't release it.

Art is released for many reasons. Politics is sometimes assumed, deliberately, and sometimes not, from that. Making that distinction is crucial.
 

Not

Banned
This is next level whitewashing

Agree with the Get Out post from earlier.

So how does this go:

If you're Asian, you have to steal a white body first, and THEN you can be black?

You know what you're telling everyone here, Hollywood?

WE NEED TO PUT
AN ASIAN WOMAN
IN THE BODY OF
A WHITE WOMAN
BEFORE WE CAN
CARE ABOUT HER
.

Pretty damning stuff.
 

Akainu

Member
unilaterally shoulder the Japanese with the responsibility of ensuring Asian-American representation in their pop culture isn't the right approach.

But at the same time, expecting them to immediately understand the issue and agree with our viewpoint is little more than an American viewpoint getting pushed onto another country without proper contextualization and itself can be seen as a form of cultural imperialism. It's not such a clear cut issue.

Who is even saying that? If anything all I ever see is that their opinion on the subject doesn't matter and I agree.
 

Xiaoki

Member
Convenient how this any actress argument always somehow defaults to white
Probably because America is 63% White Non-Hispanic and 5% Asian/Pacific Islander (2013 Census numbers)

Like it not but movie executives are going to market movies to the largest demographic and America is predominantly White.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Hey look. People are talking about a spoiler without using spoiler tags across their whole post. Making it pretty easy to guess what the spoiler actually is even without clicking on the spoiler tags. Real smooth, guys.
 
Hey look. People are talking about a spoiler without using spoiler tags across their whole post. Making it pretty easy to guess what the spoiler actually is even without clicking on the spoiler tags. Real smooth, guys.

For true Ghost in the Shell fans, it is not really an important spoiler.

You should be concerned with more important things.
 
Probably because America is 63% White Non-Hispanic and 5% Asian/Pacific Islander (2013 Census numbers)

Like it not but movie executives are going to market movies to the largest demographic and America is predominantly White.
Odd given Hollywood depends on the world's money rather than domestic
 

Trojan X

Banned
The beef many people have also concerned the fact that this was THE opportunity to have an Asian lead. Not exactly that Major can't be Caucasian

Bingo. The more opportunities for other ethnicities to star in bigger Hollywood/movie roles the better, especially in industries that have been dominated by white leads/members for over a century.

Another thing that needs to calm down is the continuous showcase of a white boy/man dominating or showing superiority - or coolness - over an Asian man and falls in love or gets the hottest Asian girl in the entire movie or at least communicate a love interest between the pair despite any forbidden nature or cause. I'm sick and tired of seeing that and only communicates negativity due to the sheer volume of times this has been featured (again, this has been happening for decades, it's brain washing). This not only happens aplenty in movies but countless times on TV as well. It's ridiculous.
 
Probably because America is 63% White Non-Hispanic and 5% Asian/Pacific Islander (2013 Census numbers)

Like it not but movie executives are going to market movies to the largest demographic and America is predominantly White.

Then why does Hollywood depend so much on China?
 
He got you there.

Not really, because it could reinforce the narrative there's nothing broken with Hollywood's formula so why fix it? China loves White people films. Hell they put Matt Damon as the star in one of theirs.

There's nothing to suggest adding Asian Americans to American films will increase it's appeal in China. Although it does need to be noted that we haven't really tried either so it's an unknown as this point. LOL
 

Trojan X

Banned
Not really, because it could reinforce the narrative there's nothing broken with Hollywood's formula so why fix it? China loves White people films. Hell they put Matt Damon as the star in one of theirs.

There's nothing to suggest adding Asian Americans to American films will increase it's appeal in China. Although it does need to be noted that we haven't really tried either so it's an unknown as this point. LOL

I'd like to believe that this has been proven but I can't stand by that as I haven't taken any initiative to research online for any completed investigation on this topic.
 
I'd like to believe that this has been proven but I can't stand by that as I haven't taken any initiative to research online for any completed investigation on this topic.

I think it's less about race, and more about budget and genre of films although quality certainly helps.
 

mjc

Member
Then why does Hollywood depend so much on China?

That's a weak argument, although I see what you're driving at. Doesn't change what he posted.

The problem is deep seeded within Hollywood, it's hard for Asian actors to break into America. (Especially women) There was an interesting article I read about this though, saying prominent Chinese actors are opting to stay home rather than gamble with Hollywood. I can't say I blame them.
 
Bingo. The more opportunities for other ethnicities to star in bigger Hollywood/movie roles the better, especially in industries that have been dominated by white leads/members for over a century.

Another thing that needs to calm down is the continuous showcase of a white boy/man dominating or showing superiority - or coolness - over an Asian man and falls in love or gets the hottest Asian girl in the entire movie or at least communicate a love interest between the pair despite any forbidden nature or cause. I'm sick and tired of seeing that and only communicates negativity due to the sheer volume of times this has been featured (again, this has been happening for decades, it's brain washing). This not only happens aplenty in movies but countless times on TV as well. It's ridiculous.

You would probably be disgusted with the musical Miss Saigon, despite it being good. It's a symptom of these works being created by White Men who typically center their narratives around White male protagonists. Which I can't really blame them for tbh, but the prevalence of it is indeed nauseating.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom