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[Palette Swap]

Speaking of little shits from the right, I had forgotten de Villiers, he's apparently going to announce his support for Le Pen soon.

I really wonder what's going to happen to LR in the coming weeks. This support to FN happening in the open and going unpunished is something unprecedented over the past three decades. There were examples of complacency in the early eighties like the chilling Dreux stories (when Stirbois masqueraded as a VCR salesman to tell people that the arabs down the block had money to buy VCRs), but generally speaking, the Chirac rule of "you're out" applied. They don't even have a functional political bureau, and whatever they decide, some people will walk out of the party.

We should stop calling her "Marine"

1) It's disrepectful towards women as always in politics (Ségolène, Hillary, Angela, Martine...). Men are not called by their first name.

2) It's the way she wants to be called in the de-demonizing process (if you call her by her first name then you're either a close friend or family, she can't be that dangerous). Don't make it easier for her, her supporters calling their idol by her name is already painful enough. Besides her surname has a meaning like no other and we should let her remember her beloved lineage.

100% agreed.

On 1 in particular, what always irks me is in interviews, when some journalists will call some women in power by their first name when they'd never dream of doing so with men.
Then again, Duflot's treatment at the assembly was such a huge embarrassment.

 

[dark10x]

I don't even understand Le Pen's "plan" after she backpedaled on the Euro. She's suggesting two currencies, a new Franc for the population and Euro for international trades, isn't that the worst of both worlds ? People would suffer from inflation, but you'd have no benefit for exports....

Makes zero sense but she's at the point where she will literally say anything, no matter how unlikely, just to win.

 

[Gurgelhals]

We should stop calling her "Marine"

1) It's disrepectful towards women as always in politics (Ségolène, Hillary, Angela, Martine...). Men are not called by their first name.

How can you forget about The Man, The Myth, The Legend:

 

[Koren]

That's actually how I read the article, but then of course I have the point of view of a non-American. It didn't sound like criticism of the French system at all.
And I think it's interesting to do comparisons of political systems by adapting them to different countries, even in a fictional scenario. France is quite unique for having a very centralized organization, but it's interesting to see the weight of the different regions if it was more federalized, like most of its neighbours.

I'm not convinced that the US system is really bad per se for a federal country. I mean, should we need to create something for some United States of Europe, I doubt we would use a system that different from the US, or some smaller countries/states would basically be swallowed. It's hard to design a voting system for a gathering of states that have different

It's easy to criticize it when another system would have produce a president you may like more (even several times), or at least dislike less, but you don't choose a system to produce the president you want (well, we do this in France for the Assemblée Nationale by moving voters, but that's another problem)


Should you do this, I'm not convinced using actual regions is that meaningful for France. The current regions is a merging of the old ones, that had been created against the regionalisms. A "State of Britanny" without Nantes would be an interesting creation

So you would need to create regions/states carefully, which isn't easy. And create more than 13, the less you have, the more random the system (for example, cut the country in two regions and apply this system: you may end with 49% of the votes basically not taken into account, since only the larger region would decide on the president). USA have 50, that's far more manageable.

Also, I doubt people would have cast the same votes in a single turn to elect a college.

It really seems to be a bad attempt at criticizing something with an awful comparison.


I would be curious to see the results with départements...

 

[Ac30]

Is it possible you're freaking out?

Entirely possible, yes. This is the FN we're talking about.

I don't even understand Le Pen's "plan" after she backpedaled on the Euro. She's suggesting two currencies, a new Franc for the population and Euro for international trades, isn't that the worst of both worlds ? People would suffer from inflation, but you'd have no benefit for exports...



Probably not, the rolling polls don't do week-ends, not sure about labour day though. Sometimes you have specific polls done during the week-ends.

Thanks.

Her dual currency idea never made much sense but she probably has to double down on it now DLF is on board...

 

[KingSnake]

If you have prices in Euro and salaries in Francs, that could work. Not for the people, necessarily.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If you have prices in Euro and salaries in Francs, that could work. Not for the people, necessarily.

Wouldn't the exchange rate be tied then anyway, making the whole thing useless?

 

[Palette Swap]

The platform flip flopping on MLP's side is really embarrassing. She scored a few points last week with selfies on a parking lot, but honestly, her campaign and messaging are awful right now. She's definitely not a marathon runner.

 

[Apzu]

That's actually how I read the article, but then of course I have the point of view of a non-American. It didn't sound like criticism of the French system at all.
And I think it's interesting to do comparisons of political systems by adapting them to different countries, even in a fictional scenario. France is quite unique for having a very centralized organization, but it's interesting to see the weight of the different regions if it was more federalized, like most of its neighbours.

Maybe you're right, when I read it I already had some stones in my hands so maybe I was a bit biased not to like the article from the start. But anyway, to me the article was just a long what if scenario without any further development. There was no conclusion to take from it, was it saying the french system was better or worse, was it trying to say that candidates should pay more attention to regional demands? It seemed just too vague.

We should stop calling her "Marine"

1) It's disrepectful towards women as always in politics (Ségolène, Hillary, Angela, Martine...). Men are not called by their first name.

This is quite interesting, I'm not sure if it's something that I can say happens in all latin america, but at least here in Brazil we have men who run for office using their first name, though to be fair our culture is to usually call anyone by their first name. Anyway, may I ask how people/press used to refer to some of south america's women presidents? I mean was the brazilian president Dilma or Rousseff, in Argentina was it Kirchner or Cristina and is the current chilean president Michelle or Bachelet.

I'm not convinced that the US system is really bad per se for a federal country. I mean, should we need to create something for some United States of Europe, I doubt we would use a system that different from the US, or some smaller countries/states would basically be swallowed. It's hard to design a voting system for a gathering of states that have different

I don't know, there are other federal countries around the world but only the US uses an electoral college system to elect their president. Here in Brazil we use basically the same system as in France, popular vote with 2 rounds if no one gets more than 50% and I think both Argentina and Mexico are somewhat like this as well. I won't say our federalism is better, because frankly I don't think it is, but I don't see an inherent problem with electing a president without considering the weight of states. I would even argue that to some extent even the US wouldn't have much problem with this idea, seeing as governors are elected directly and not through an electoral college considering the weight of each county.

 

[KingSnake]

Wouldn't the exchange rate be tied then anyway, making the whole thing useless?

Not necessarily. Of course the prices won't be officially in Euro, but Francs equivalent of Euro. This actually happens in some parts in non-euro Eastern Europe for example for things like utilities, cars, houses etc.

Not that it's a good thing. But if she campaigns for it ...

 

[Koren]

I don't know, there are other federal countries around the world but only the US uses an electoral college system to elect their president.

Not many with 20+ states with vastly different situations.

Not saying it's great, but I can understand the difficulties of designing a proper system for a large federation.

I don't know much of the situation in Brazil and Mexico to know if it's different (I studied Brazil in school, but it was 22 years ago :/ )

I may be totally clueless (and I apologize in advance), but I thought Argentina wasn't a federal country anymore?

but I don't see an inherent problem with electing a president without considering the weight of states.

It's almost a philosophical problem... You aim to elect the best candidate for the american people as a whole. In science, we're lucky enough to be able to put this into equations, ut in politics...

Both can work, I just say they are reasons behind this, they didn't do it just as a play. Most of the time, the result would be the same. It could be interesting to study if it's good or bad in the cases where they differ...

Also, unless I'm mistaken, it's not really a federal decision, but one that the states do. Not all the states use the winner-takes-all rule. If people think the system is bad, they can try to change it at least in their states first.


I'm not american, so I'll refrain from showing more than curiosity and interest in their system. Maybe it's distorded by media, but I have been more surprised by the issues related to IDs. But the most surprising part was the fact that so many american people had troubles getting an ID.

When in France, we've seen dead people voting in some elections, the rules about IDs seems obvious

 

[Brenal]

Not many with 20+ states with vastly different situations.

Not saying it's great, but I can understand the difficulties of designing a proper system for a large federation.

I don't know much of the situation in Brazil and Mexico to know if it's different (I studied Brazil in school, but it was 22 years ago :/ )

I may be totally clueless (and I apologize in advance), but I thought Argentina wasn't a federal country anymore?


It's almost a philosophical problem... You aim to elect the best candidate for the american people as a whole. In science, we're lucky enough to be able to put this into equations, ut in politics...

Both can work, I just say they are reasons behind this, they didn't do it just as a play. Most of the time, the result would be the same. It could be interesting to study if it's good or bad in the cases where they differ...

Also, unless I'm mistaken, it's not really a federal decision, but one that the states do. Not all the states use the winner-takes-all rule. If people think the system is bad, they can try to change it at least in their states first.


I'm not american, so I'll refrain from showing more than curiosity and interest in their system. Maybe it's distorded by media, but I have been more surprised by the issues related to IDs. But the most surprising part was the fact that so many american people had troubles getting an ID.

When in France, we've seen dead people voting in some elections, the rules about IDs seems obvious

In Mexico we use a basic first past the post system and we have voting registry that doubles as our official ID, honestly i couldnt tell if the system suits us, my country has a pretty weird history as a democracy.

 

[mo60]

The platform flip flopping on MLP's side is really embarrassing. She scored a few points last week with selfies on a parking lot, but honestly, her campaign and messaging are awful right now. She's definitely not a marathon runner.

Her campaign is starting to lose focus now. The former president of the FN leaving his position because of controversial statements plus all of the other stuff plauging her camapign late last week has helped derail her campaign. It doesn't help that Macron is starting to do better now in terms of camapigning.

 

[Apzu]

Once the campaign is over, can Le Pen return to FN as their president? It would be hard to campaign for the parliament without her, wouldn't it?

Also what happened with the investigation the EU was doing on her? I haven't read anything about that recently.

Not many with 20+ states with vastly different situations.

Not saying it's great, but I can understand the difficulties of designing a proper system for a large federation.

I don't know much of the situation in Brazil and Mexico to know if it's different (I studied Brazil in school, but it was 22 years ago :/ )

I may be totally clueless (and I apologize in advance), but I thought Argentina wasn't a federal country anymore?

It's almost a philosophical problem... You aim to elect the best candidate for the american people as a whole. In science, we're lucky enough to be able to put this into equations, ut in politics...

Both can work, I just say they are reasons behind this, they didn't do it just as a play. Most of the time, the result would be the same. It could be interesting to study if it's good or bad in the cases where they differ...

Also, unless I'm mistaken, it's not really a federal decision, but one that the states do. Not all the states use the winner-takes-all rule. If people think the system is bad, they can try to change it at least in their states first.

I get your point, there are reasons to support the electoral college, but some of them don't make any sense today, even the US doesn't try to promote this system to other countries that are starting a democratic government. I mean it made sense to use an electoral college back in the 1800s as it would be really hard to do a direct vote considering the extent of the country and population, but with today's technology that is not really a good point, for instance.

I'm not american, so I'll refrain from showing more than curiosity and interest in their system. Maybe it's distorded by media, but I have been more surprised by the issues related to IDs. But the most surprising part was the fact that so many american people had troubles getting an ID.

When in France, we've seen dead people voting in some elections, the rules about IDs seems obvious

Yeah, the ID thing is really odd. Here in Brazil you can get an ID easily and the first one is free of charge, also since we have a mandatory voting system when you reach 18 you have to register to vote and when you do you get a voting ID that you need to show every election. Even then we also have had some cases of dead people voting and that's why the government started a project to use a biometric system (getting everyone's prints) alongside the voting ID to assure the person voting is indeed the real deal.

In Mexico we use a basic first past the post system and we have voting registry that doubles as our official ID, honestly i couldnt tell if the system suits us, my country has a pretty weird history as a democracy.

I guess we all have that in common in this part of the continent, don't we?

Still, I thought Mexico also has a 2 round system, Argentina used to only have one but they changed to also have the possibility of 2 rounds and I thought you had done the same. I also wonder if electing the president directly is the best way, here in south america we have elected lots of populists over the years, but when people vote for someone you don't like at least they had to get the support of the majority of the population to get there.

 

[Coffinhal]

How can you forget about The Man, The Myth, The Legend:

Hahaha I did not get everything about this Jeb meme phenomenom

I don't even understand Le Pen's "plan" after she backpedaled on the Euro. She's suggesting two currencies, a new Franc for the population and Euro for international trades, isn't that the worst of both worlds ? People would suffer from inflation, but you'd have no benefit for exports...

She always have been suggesting two currencies in a common currency system. I remember back in 2012 or 2013 when she was soooo happy to explain the difference between a common currency (monnaie commune) and a single currency (monnaie unique)to journalists. She gave the example of the ECU (1979-1999) but she didn't quite study it.

I recommend everyone to read this article on the topic. A bit technical if you're new on monetary policy but that's the best I've read about the lack of insight inside their project. The conclusion pretty much says it all (and it is 4 months old)

Au final, la position de Marine Le Pen apparaît comme très imprécise et assez irréaliste et ne saurait constituer une vraie feuille de route. Le positionnement semble avant tout électoral. Sur un sujet complexe, l'important est de sauver les apparences : maintenir l'idée d'une sortie de l'euro comme objectif pour ceux qui la désirent et s'en considèrent les victimes et rassurer ceux qui, disposant d'un patrimoine et de rentes, redoutent une sortie de l'euro qui les appauvriraient. Ce sont les deux électorats du FN que l'on tente là de réconcilier par le flou et l'appel « au bon vieux temps de l'ECU » : les classes populaires et les classes moyennes aux valeurs traditionnelles.

 

[oti]

Just watched this MLP interview from one month ago. What a bunch of nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeEHQhARESU

 

[Alx]

So today at 14:00 place de la République, there will be two simultaneous demonstrations, one to support Macron and one to support abstention. No risk at all that it could go wrong.

Spoiler

Stupid people.

 

[Alx]

Jean-Marie Le Pen's live speech on TV is so pitiful. Not only is the guy tired, out of breath and not always coherent, but now they're struggling with their sound system and computer stuff.
Go home, Jean-Marie.
*e - and now he's singing all alone on stage. Make it stop.

 

[elyetis]

support abstention.

It boggles my mind that people not only think it's a good idea, but would even go as far as to do a demonstrations.
Or did I wake up in a parallel univers where abstention and blank vote finaly did matter ? ( as it should )

 

[KingSnake]

What's the ultimate goal of a protest for abstention?

What's the message here?

 

[BossDarkseid]

What's the ultimate goal of a protest for abstention?

What's the message here?

There was an interview on BBC where someone said it was to show they care so much they don't believe in any of the candidates because they're all the same. : /

Goes with the whole, super privileged thing, I guess - since it doesn't seem to be a case where all the candidates are deplorable

 

[Oreiller]

It boggles my mind that people not only think it's a good idea, but would even go as far as to do a demonstrations.
Or did I wake up in a parallel univers where abstention and blank vote finaly did matter ? ( as it should )

Well you see, capitalism is a type of fascism, and you shouldn't have to choose between two kinds of fascism.
Since the results of these elections are fixed by the media and the polls, this proves that we live in a dictatorship, and thus voting is meaningless.
By going in the streets, we're going to show how corrupt the system is, so we can promote a real democracy.

At least, that's what some hardcore melenchonistes tried to explain to me this last week.

 

[KingSnake]

There was an interview on BBC where someone said it was to show they care so much they don't believe in any of the candidates because they're all the same. : /

Goes with the whole, super privileged thing, I guess - since it doesn't seem to be a case where all the candidates are deplorable

I understand what drives this, but abstention is a non action. Is pretending doing something by staying at home and doing nothing. There's no difference between an abstention due to protest and an abstention due to laziness in the end result.

A protest to support abstention sounds ilogic in the context of presidential elections. Why not protest directly against the issues that you think that both candidates bring.

In the end abstention solves shit. One of them will be elected.

Edit: abstention is as useful in curing democracy as Facebook likes are in curing any disease.

Edit2: a white vote would serve the purpose of protesting if it's counted separately. If it's bundled with null votes then it gets lost into the crowd of people who are too dumb to vote properly.

 

[Koren]

It boggles my mind that people not only think it's a good idea, but would even go as far as to do a demonstrations.

Well, I'm torn between the fact that I want FN as low as possible and white votes as high as possible. I'm not totally sure which message is the most important one.

That's assuming the result is granted... Since I'm not sure I can make this hypothesis, this may settle the question.

But I can understand the idea behind the white votes and the demonstration... (not the abstention, though)

Or did I wake up in a parallel univers where abstention and blank vote finaly did matter ? ( as it should )

Well, you have a point, but even if media ignores it, since the data is available, some people at least can use the statistic.

What's the ultimate goal of a protest for abstention?

What's the message here?

Showing that Macron doesn't have the support from a majority of people.

Well you see, capitalism is a type of fascism, and you shouldn't have to choose between two kinds of fascism.
Since the results of these elections are fixed by the media and the polls, this proves that we live in a dictatorship, and thus voting is meaningless.

By going in the streets, we're going to show how corrupt the system is, so we can promote a real democracy.

At least, that's what some hardcore melenchonistes tried to explain to me this last week.

That's fun...

Based on their hypothesis (people are mostly not clever enough to vote), a democratic system would indeed not use universal voting (since the choice of universal voting in a democratic attempt relies on the assumption that voters are clever enough to see which is the best candidate for the whole french people), I can agree on the fact that we're not in a democracy.

But I'd like to know which alternative they suggests...


Also, they may be harsh on polls and media, but I'd argue that most of Mélenchon score is because of polls and medias. In a total blackout, I doubt that so many PS voters would have jumped the boat to cast a "useful vote"...

 

[Alx]

Well, I'm torn between the fact that I want FN as low as possible and white votes as high as possible. I'm not totally sure which message is the most important one.

That's assuming the result is granted... Since I'm not sure I can make this hypothesis, this may settle the question.

My main issue with that (besides the obvious "we shouldn't take the chance" which I agree with) is the idea that an election can be used to "send a message". That's not what it's for, an election is meant to take a decision. A or B will be our next president, there is no third alternative.
Also I don't see the point of demonstrating to support your decision. If you want to vote A or B, do so in the booth. Same thing if you want to vote white (although I consider it fleeing your responsibility). But I don't support pro-A or anti-B demonstrations in the middle of an election.

The only kind of demonstration that would make sense in my opinion is one to send the message "I'll vote A but I'm not happy about it", which would indeed send a message complementary to the decision of the election, and make sure the results won't be interpreted wrong.

 

[Koren]

My main issue with that (besides the obvious "we shouldn't take the chance" which I agree with) is the idea that an election can be used to "send a message". That's not what it's for, an election is meant to take a decision. A or B will be our next president, there is no third alternative.

Should it be "A or B", I don't see the point in giving the numbers, especially the number of people that actually voted, or counting white/nulls. Maybe the split between the two candidates, and even this one...

80/20 and 51/49 is a very different result, and that means it's not just "A or B".

The fact that the counting changed is, to me, a message that it's even less "A or B" than it could have been in the past.

Where is it said how we should interpret the result? Most politics will read it the way they want, so I feel free to use my vote to (attempt to) say what I want.

But I don't support pro-A or anti-B demonstrations in the middle of an election.

As long as they're peaceful, I don't see the difference between a demonstration and candidates distributing fliers, holding meetings or visiting places...

The only kind of demonstration that would make sense in my opinion is one to send the message "I'll vote A but I'm not happy about it", which would indeed send a message complementary to the decision of the election, and make sure the results won't be interpreted wrong.

This will be ignored afterwards, because there's no numerical proof that even existed once the election is done...

 

[Alx]

Should it be "A or B", I don't see the point in giving the numbers, especially the number of people that actually voted, or counting white/nulls. Maybe the split between the two candidates, and even this one...

80/20 and 51/49 is a very different result, and that means it's not just "A or B".

Giving the numbers is just a matter of transparency... in the end nobody remembers the ratios once the president is in charge, except maybe for Chirac because it was such an exceptional situation (which makes the numbers even less significant actually... some even called it "a banana republic result" to dismiss it)

Where is it said how we should interpret the result? Most politics will read it the way they want, so I feel free to use my vote to (attempt to) say what I want.

Which is why it is pointless or even counter-productive. If you want to send a message, then you want to make sure the person to whom you're sending it will get it and not read it his own way.

As long as they're peaceful, I don't see the difference between a demonstration and candidates distributing fliers, holding meetings or visiting places...

To be fair I don't see the point in meetings (except for raising funds I guess). And distributing fliers is an old-fashioned way of informing people on the program of a candidate.
I don't know what visiting places really achieve either (do we even remember which places were visited in previous elections ?), maybe with the exception of Whirlpool this year since it was both a memorable stunt (Le Pen crashing the event) and opportunity to show Macron "at work" (even if it wasn't part of the plan).

This will be ignored afterwards, because there's no numerical proof that even existed once the election is done...

It probably will, but at least there's no ambiguity about it.
Anyway, the message will always be lost if you try to send it at the moment of the election. Because all that will be remembered is who won.

 

[Carn82]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39766334

France election: Macron says EU must reform or face 'Frexit'

While I do agree that some sort of reform should be on the table in the next 4 years, I wonder if this is just a bit of tough talk to please FN-leaning voters.

 

[Lord Frieza]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39766334



While I do agree that some sort of reform should be on the table in the next 4 years, I wonder if this is just a bit of tough talk to please FN-leaning voters.

I hope so, because I thought Macron was the pro-EU guy

 

[Carn82]

I hope so, because I thought Macron was the pro-EU guy

He is. But seems he added some 'but I'm critical"-sauce.

"I'm a pro-European, I defended constantly during this election the European idea and European policies because I believe it's extremely important for French people and for the place of our country in globalisation," Mr Macron, leader of the recently created En Marche! movement, told the BBC.

"But at the same time we have to face the situation, to listen to our people, and to listen to the fact that they are extremely angry today, impatient and the dysfunction of the EU is no more sustainable.

"So I do consider that my mandate, the day after, will be at the same time to reform in depth the European Union and our European project."

Mr Macron added that if he were to allow the EU to continue to function as it was would be a "betrayal".

"And I don't want to do so," he said. "Because the day after, we will have a Frexit or we will have [Ms Le Pen's] National Front (FN) again."

 

[Alx]

If anything it would rather appeal to Mélenchon-leaning voters, who were very vocal about the need of a different EU. I don't think any reform would please FN voters except for one that dismantle it altogether.
Also he doesn't mention Frexit as an alternative, but as a dangerous consequence if we don't act now (he actually says "it will be Frexit or FN in power")

 

[Carn82]

Also he doesn't mention Frexit as an alternative, but as a dangerous consequence if we don't act now (he actually says "it will be Frexit or FN in power")

yeah the headline is a bit click-baity.

 

[Zips]

What exactly are people blaming on the EU and so calls for reform or leaving it?

Is it just anti-immigration feelings building up?

I'm not in an EU country, so I'm particularly confused by what seems to be a growing anti-EU sentiment, when it seems like the EU is more or less working well and leaving it would just be British-level foolishness.

 

[Carn82]

What exactly are people blaming on the EU and so calls for reform or leaving it?

Is it just anti-immigration feelings building up?

I'm not in an EU country, so I'm particularly confused by what seems to be a growing anti-EU sentiment, when it seems like the EU is more or less working well and leaving it would just be British-level foolishness.

I think a lot of it comes from 'they took er jerbs', usually referring to cheap labour from eastern Europe "stealing" jobs in Western Europe. There is also quite a disconnect between local, country and European policies for a lot of people. Many people don't have a solid idea what the EU actually means and does.

My biggest criticism would be the administrative overhead; for example; the EU-officials usually meet up in Brussels but once per month in Strasbourg and it costs millions to maintain two parliaments

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What exactly are people blaming on the EU and so calls for reform or leaving it?

Is it just anti-immigration feelings building up?

I'm not in an EU country, so I'm particularly confused by what seems to be a growing anti-EU sentiment, when it seems like the EU is more or less working well and leaving it would just be British-level foolishness.

Inflation for mainly southern Europe and the authoritarianism of Bruxelle.
Basically, Europe in it's current form is great economically for Germany, but not for the rest. I think you can separate that economical and social opposition to EU and the political one. Mélenchon is not politically against EU, unlike Le Pen. You have the socialist opposition to Europe and the nationalist one.
Then you have different ways on dealing against the current form of the UE. Melenchon is more radical, Hamon was less combative.

 

[Alx]

What exactly are people blaming on the EU and so calls for reform or leaving it?

Is it just anti-immigration feelings building up?

Nah despite the FN obsession with immigration, the migrant crisis isn't really on top of preoccupations in France.
EU is mostly blamed for benefitting some countries more than others (especially Germany which wants a stronger Euro, while France and southern countries want a weaker one), putting pressure on budget policies (old "austerity or no austerity" debate), and also countries with difficulties are tempted by protectionnism and complain about free market rules and competition between members (case in point : the infamous Whirlpool factory that is being moved from France to Poland)

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You also have to understand that their is no migrant crisis in France, only a few thousands came. Ridiculous number if you compare it with Turkey or Germany.

 

[chromatic9]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39766334



While I do agree that some sort of reform should be on the table in the next 4 years, I wonder if this is just a bit of tough talk to please FN-leaning voters.

It might be but he has said this for a while, it could've been calculated a long time before of course.

Has he ever done an interview in French which he outlines what needs to be changed?

 

[Alx]

Watching the news has me really worried right now. It feels like the country has never been so divided. Right now the only thing that keeps me hopeful on the result are the latest polls, and I reaaaaally hope that they didn't get those wrong. Also I believe the current general atmosphere will make the gap close a bit faster.

 

[Kilrogg]

Watching the news has me really worried right now. It feels like the country has never been so divided. Right now the only thing that keeps me hopeful on the result are the latest polls, and I reaaaaally hope that they didn't get those wrong. Also I believe the current general atmosphere will make the gap close a bit faster.

My biggest worry is a potential Macron-gate. Scandals have an uncanny ability to be revealed in a timely fashion these days. Email-gate with Clinton, Penelope-gate with Fillon, or even Strauss Kahn's hotel-gate if you look further back... It's almost like some people know things but deliberately hold them back as a dirty strategy to use when the going gets tough... But no, surely, that can't be it. Also, there's absolutely no way Russia has any stakes in this election. No sirree. And there haven't been any attempts to breach into Macron's e-mails by Russian hackers either, nuh-uh.

I'm honestly surprised nothing has 'leaked' so far, which makes me even more worried. Something will leak right before Wednesday's debate or on Friday/Saturday, right before the vote.

:/

 

[EmiPrime]

Macron has been talking about EU reform since he launched his campaign, it's nothing new. He has argued that the EU has a communication and transparency problem that needs to be fixed so that confidence can be restored in it as an institution. The rest of his reforms are more cooperation and more integration.

His reforms are more Europe not less Europe.

 

[Coffinhal]

Of course the media are pushing the divided France atmosphere. It's an easy scenario for them

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39766334

While I do agree that some sort of reform should be on the table in the next 4 years, I wonder if this is just a bit of tough talk to please FN-leaning voters.

Not at all. He's just trying to transform the left-right divide into a neoliberal-progressism-nationalist-antiliberalism divide. What he means is "I will reform the EU and save it" while "Le Pen will lead to Frexit" (which is for him the worst case scenario). This is some kind of ultimatum. This is the new "there is no alternative" : he's trying to erase the left-wing (which he calls "conservative" haha).

Besides by reform he means more federalism and more coordinated (neoliberal) economic policies. Kind of same agenda Merkel has, but not the same priorities

 

[Alx]

Of course the media are pushing the divided France atmosphere. Now

No reason to blame the media, we've known about the division for weeks and the results of the first round confirm it.
What wasn't clear though was how so many people won't really make a difference between extreme-right and centrist policies. For some reason Macron went from "empty bubble with no program" to "Great Satan" in three months.

 

[Coffinhal]

No reason to blame the media, we've known about the division for weeks and the results of the first round confirm it.

What wasn't clear though was how so many people won't really make a difference between extreme-right and centrist policies. For some reason Macron went from "empty bubble with no program" to "Great Satan" in three months.

I don't "blame the media". I'm highlighting the fact that they like, especially on television, to magnify some kind of fight between "two Frances" whereas results of the 1st round show a France divided between four ideological parts (and that can be measured both geographically and demographically).

I don't really know what too say about your second paragraph. Maybe too much caricature ? It looks like you're justing pasting the general mood of BFMTV's éditorialistes without any distance.

 

[Alx]

I'm just "pasting" the observed behaviour of people who claim "neither Macron nor Le Pen" as if they were equally bad. It is indeed influenced by how it appears in the media (or in the few social networks that I read despite all my efforts of avoiding them), but it doesn't look anecdotal any more.
On the other hand the only counter-proof of such position are the latest polls (which are already 3 days old btw... and still 60/40). And as much as polls have proven themselves rather trustworthy until now, I can't shake the idea that maybe they may be missing something.

 

[Ac30]

LMAO, according to a Reddit post and the latest OpinionWay polls, Macron gained 13% of DLF's voters since last week. Let's hope that's permanent - I'm pleasantly surprised his base seems to be rebelling against him.

 

[Koren]

While I do agree that some sort of reform should be on the table in the next 4 years, I wonder if this is just a bit of tough talk to please FN-leaning voters.

Well, I'm mostly pro-EU, I could even be a federalist (at long-term, when differences are flatten... a narrower Europe would probably have made things easier though), but let's be honest: if you can't explain why EU is good for people (a lot of politics have blamed EU for every failure, it's the easiest excuse, even when it's blatantly false) AND you can't point things that changed, we WILL reach a majority for Frexit.

To me, "something has to change or we'll get a Frexit" is stating a fact, to me, not an opinion, and believing that everything can stay the same and people not growing annoyed of it is dangerous...

I wish all the best to UK people, but having an example of what it means could probably be useful.

What exactly are people blaming on the EU and so calls for reform or leaving it?

Is it just anti-immigration feelings building up?

Depends on who you ask. But several people have concerns that countries can do less and less because of EU regulations, and people setting those regulations are seen as non-representative of EU people (at the same time, most people don't care about EU parliament elections)

I haven't heard a single allusion about immigration from people against EU I know. Every one dislike the loss of power the elected people in France encounter because of EU regulations.

I'm not in an EU country, so I'm particularly confused by what seems to be a growing anti-EU sentiment, when it seems like the EU is more or less working well and leaving it would just be British-level foolishness.

I agree, although I'd say that there's things that works well (and unfortunately silently), there's things that doesn't work at all (and it seems sometimes that noone care... I really believe that EU regulations on goods transport by train have had awful results, and they seem eager to do as much harm on people transport by train).

Though I expect that it wouldn't be Brexit-like. I would expect Frexit to be the end of EU, Germany would be such an heavy power in UK-less, France-less EU that I doubt it wouldn't collapse.

You also have to understand that their is no migrant crisis in France, only a few thousands came. Ridiculous number if you compare it with Turkey or Germany.

I agree, though there's still far more people leaving in tents or outside than I would like... Around Paris, especially, it's awful.

My biggest worry is a potential Macron-gate. Scandals have an uncanny ability to be revealed in a timely fashion these days. Email-gate with Clinton, Penelope-gate with Fillon, or even Strauss Kahn's hotel-gate if you look further back...

France usually isn't that annoyed with *-gate. Fillon almost did it. Chirac, Mitterrand had plently. Don't even talk about FN. Balkanys are reelected easily.

Granted, Diamonds-gate cost VGE its second term in 1981, but I'm not even sure it's the main reason.

I'm honestly surprised nothing has 'leaked' so far, which makes me even more worried. Something will leak right before Wednesday's debate or on Friday/Saturday, right before the vote.

We will see, but I doubt it would turn the tables.

And well, I'm already convinced Macron is shady... When you've borrowed 2+ millions and you say your properties worth 1 million and everything is normal, you're either a liar, or as good as Trump to deal with money. I'm not sure what is worse

 

[Zukkoyaki]

I'm just "pasting" the observed behaviour of people who claim "neither Macron nor Le Pen" as if they were equally bad. It is indeed influenced by how it appears in the media (or in the few social networks that I read despite all my efforts of avoiding them), but it doesn't look anecdotal any more.
On the other hand the only counter-proof of such position are the latest polls (which are already 3 days old btw... and still 60/40). And as much as polls have proven themselves rather trustworthy until now, I can't shake the idea that maybe they may be missing something.

I'm a lurker in this thread but I thought I'd share that two polls dropped today:

OpinionWay: Macron 61
Ifop: Macron 59

So still hovering at 60/40 like they have since last week and perfectly in-line with the polls dropped on Friday. Thought that would help you feel a little better

 

[tuxfool]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39766334



While I do agree that some sort of reform should be on the table in the next 4 years, I wonder if this is just a bit of tough talk to please FN-leaning voters.

He has some very clear views in the direction of EU reform he wants to see. This isn't just rhetoric on his part. But to note that frexit isn't something he has ever proposed.

 

[Koren]

He has some very clear views in the direction of EU reform he wants to see.

I'm not convinced Macron has shown "very clear views" on any subject any minor ones...