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Pachter on PS5: Bets on 2020 launch now, PS4 Pro to become "default PS4"

C

c0de

Member
onQ123 said:
PS4 Pro didn't wait for Vega & used some of it's features almost a year before Vega was released.


They could do the same with Navi they could basically have Vega 10 with custom parts & some from Navi.
Click to expand...

People hope for navi not only because of features but also for efficiency. Vega didn't set the world on fire like many hoped and the power consumption that's needed to match Nvidia is not a good sign for a console version of the architecture.
 
O

onQ123

Member
c0de said:
People hope for navi not only because of features but also for efficiency. Vega didn't set the world on fire like many hoped and the power consumption that's needed to match Nvidia is not a good sign for a console version of the architecture.
Click to expand...


Consoles manufacturers fallowing GPUs made for a large range of PC's ,servers & so on will probably never be efficient to begin with but I think Sony will be smart enough to make customizations that will help reach their goals more efficiently.


I think following the PC GPUs might be smart for Xbox One because of UWP but PS5 should have custom parts in the SoC/APU.


If it was up to me PS5 would share the PS4 library but PS5 would have hardware acceleration & other advances that will make the games look & run different in PS5 mode .
 
Bitch Pudding

Bitch Pudding

Member
bourgeois said:
Expecting the nextbox to be soon after launch of PS5?
Click to expand...

At this point nextbox could be anything, including nothing more than an industry standard for hardware that uses the latest Windows OS. Not saying MS won't build systems themselves but I expect a more open hardware approach for their next iteration.
 
Ascenion

Ascenion

Member
Bitch Pudding said:
At this point nextbox could be anything, including nothing more than an industry standard for hardware that uses the latest Windows OS. Not saying MS won't build systems themselves but I expect a more open hardware approach for their next iteration.
Click to expand...

So you’re expecting a steam box type deal? Eh....I’m expecting an Xbox 4 with a clean-ish generation break with full backwards compatibility and maybe limited forward compatibility. More than anything given the One X I’d also expect it to be the stronger box out of the gate. There’s still a market for a closed Xbox console.
 
C

c0de

Member
onQ123 said:
Consoles manufacturers fallowing GPUs made for a large range of PC's ,servers & so on will probably never be efficient to begin with but I think Sony will be smart enough to make customizations that will help reach their goals more efficiently.


I think following the PC GPUs might be smart for Xbox One because of UWP but PS5 should have custom parts in the SoC/APU.


If it was up to me PS5 would share the PS4 library but PS5 would have hardware acceleration & other advances that will make the games look & run different in PS5 mode .
Click to expand...

I don't see any reason why Microsoft would not also modify their soc, to be honest.
 
C

c0de

Member
onQ123 said:
What custom hardware is in Xbox One X GPU that's not part of the PC pipeline?
Click to expand...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

But then again, what does the Pro offer in its GPU that's not present elsewhere? Or are we talking about the SOC? Because especially Xbox One was definitely not off-the-shelf hardware with its TMUs and ESRAM.
Or are you again referring to the id buffer where we still don't know how much performance boost this is providing?
The thing in the end is: you can't buy equivalent hardware on PC for Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4 and PS4 Pro. They all have customized hardware.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Electret said:
2020 makes sense not only in terms of Sony maximizing PS4's super profitable lifespan, but also in terms of silicon availability. 7nm should be far more capable of mass production at reasonable prices than it will be in 2019.

I don't see Pro ever becoming the default SKU, though.
Click to expand...

I think that, unless there are big problems getting their PS5 out in 2019, waiting for 2020 means letting the PS4 cool down too much. You never want to wait until your product no longer sells, until it is no longer a hot and desired item to launch the successor... that would be a mistake. A dumb mistake trying to get a few more sales one year and risk tanking the launch of the next product.
 
O

onQ123

Member
c0de said:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

But then again, what does the Pro offer in its GPU that's not present elsewhere? Or are we talking about the SOC? Because especially Xbox One was definitely not off-the-shelf hardware with its TMUs and ESRAM.
Or are you again referring to the id buffer where we still don't know how much performance boost this is providing?
The thing in the end is: you can't buy equivalent hardware on PC for Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4 and PS4 Pro. They all have customized hardware.
Click to expand...


1wmS0rf.jpg


wNOzAQX.jpg
 
0

00ich

Member
c0de said:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

But then again, what does the Pro offer in its GPU that's not present elsewhere? Or are we talking about the SOC? Because especially Xbox One was definitely not off-the-shelf hardware with its TMUs and ESRAM.
Or are you again referring to the id buffer where we still don't know how much performance boost this is providing?
The thing in the end is: you can't buy equivalent hardware on PC for Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4 and PS4 Pro. They all have customized hardware.
Click to expand...

As far as I understood the tech the Id buffer doesn't offer performance it helps a lot with temporal reconstruction. Which contributes to the IQ benefits of checkerboard rendering.
 
C

c0de

Member
onQ123 said:
1wmS0rf.jpg


wNOzAQX.jpg
Click to expand...

So just like I expected.

00ich said:
As far as I understood the tech the Id buffer doesn't offer performance it helps a lot with temporal reconstruction. Which contributes to the IQ benefits of checkerboard rendering.
Click to expand...

Well, the narrative from onQ is that it doesn't offer performance per se but the CB should otherwise be done in the GPU so it saves some CPU cycles. But we don't know how much this is effectively and we don't know if Xbox One offers something similar.
 
N

Nightengale

Member
Not another XBO =/= Not another XB

Before Scorpio's name was revealed, there were two camps who believed that they would ditch the "One" brand with Scorpio and another camp who believed Scorpio would still be an "Xbox One" due to the messaging of how there would be no exclusives/part of family/mid-gen positioning.

The next Xbox will be a differently branded Xbox that can play XB1/360/OG games, but ALSO play exclusives/next-gen games that are made for PS5/XB2 level performance.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
c0de said:
So just like I expected.



Well, the narrative from onQ is that it doesn't offer performance per se but the CB should otherwise be done in the GPU so it saves some CPU cycles. But we don't know how much this is effectively and we don't know if Xbox One offers something similar.
Click to expand...

Improves performance of a process that helps obtain comparable quality to 4K without a native 4K buffer thus saving in shading and fill rate costs. This “narrative” / “supposedly” / “we do not know if it is effective” seems quite FUD inducing c0de.
 
C

c0de

Member
Panajev2001a said:
Improves performance of a process that helps obtain comparable quality to 4K without a native 4K buffer thus saving in shading and fill rate costs. This “narrative” / “supposedly” / “we do not know if it is effective” seems quite FUD inducing c0de.
Click to expand...

I don't say it doesn't save cycles - the discussion started in another thread about the native resolution of QB for Xbox One X and the arguments were that Pro could achieve the same base resolution because of Pro hardware customizations, leading to the point that the hardware customizations are enough to put a fictional Pro version of QB to the same level of the Xbox One X version of the game.
But I don't blame you for not having the context, of course.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
c0de said:
I don't say it doesn't save cycles - the discussion started in another thread about the native resolution of QB for Xbox One X and the arguments were that Pro could achieve the same base resolution because of Pro hardware customizations, leading to the point that the hardware customizations are enough to put a fictional Pro version of QB to the same level of the Xbox One X version of the game.
But I don't blame you for not having the context, of course.
Click to expand...

It does not help if you are still passive aggressive about it though. It makes it look like you have a massive axe to grind and while I can understand you may want to address what you rightfully feel are incorrect statetement if this is what onQ is saying (Xbox One X is overall more powerful... as it should be when you have an extra year of R&D AND $100 higher price tag wiggle room), but that was not the best way IMHO.
 
O

onQ123

Member
c0de said:
So just like I expected.



Well, the narrative from onQ is that it doesn't offer performance per se but the CB should otherwise be done in the GPU so it saves some CPU cycles. But we don't know how much this is effectively and we don't know if Xbox One offers something similar.
Click to expand...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

Beyond that, we're moving into the juicy stuff - the custom hardware that Sony has introduced, elements of the 'secret sauce' that allow the Pro graphics core to punch so far above its weight. In creating 4K framebuffers, a lot of the technological underpinnings are actually based on advanced anti-aliasing work with the creation of new buffers that can be exploited in a number of ways.

Right now, post-process anti-aliasing techniques like FXAA or SMAA have their limits. Edge detection accuracy varies dramatically. Searches based on high contrast differentials, depth or normal maps - or a combination - all have limitations. Sony had fashioned its own, highly innovative solution.

"We'd really like to know where the object and triangle boundaries are when performing spatial anti-aliasing, but contrast, Z [depth] and normal are all imperfect solutions," Cerny says. "We'd also like to track the information from frame to frame because we're performing temporal anti-aliasing. It would be great to know the relationship between the previous frame and the current frame better. Our solution to this long-standing problem in computer graphics is the ID buffer. It's like a super-stencil. It's a separate buffer written by custom hardware that contains the object ID."


It's all hardware based, written at the same time as the Z buffer, with no pixel shader invocation required and it operates at the same resolution as the Z buffer. For the first time, objects and their coordinates in world-space can be tracked, even individual triangles can be identified. Modern GPUs don't have this access to the triangle count without a huge impact on performance.

"As a result of the ID buffer, you can now know where the edges of objects and triangles are and track them from frame to frame, because you can use the same ID from frame to frame," Cerny explains. "So it's a new tool to the developer toolbox that's pretty transformative in terms of the techniques it enables. And I'm going to explain two different techniques that use the buffer - one simpler that's geometry rendering and one more complex, the checkerboard."
Click to expand...
 
0

00ich

Member
c0de said:
I don't say it doesn't save cycles - the discussion started in another thread about the native resolution of QB for Xbox One X and the arguments were that Pro could achieve the same base resolution because of Pro hardware customizations, leading to the point that the hardware customizations are enough to put a fictional Pro version of QB to the same level of the Xbox One X version of the game.
Click to expand...

Wording is important here. Because I could see the PS4 pro archive a similar (but technically very different) image quality by eliminating the false contours from the temporal reconstruction.
 
statham

statham

Member
Matt said:
Yeah, I don't really take orders from you. But feel free to ask me a question.
Click to expand...

may I please ask you a question, if you don't mind, why?

is that better?

I mean Albert talked recently about future Xboxes, why should I believe you instead of the guy heading it up? how high level are you?
 
H

hanspampel

Banned
Matt said:
We’re not gonna see another XBO.
Click to expand...

I hope you talk about a new Xbox with different specs and the One branding.
Because we'll for sure see hardware revisions for the current Xbox One S and X down the line and also some other future Xbox consoles, or console like devices...
 
C

c0de

Member
Panajev2001a said:
It does not help if you are still passive aggressive about it though. It makes it look like you have a massive axe to grind and while I can understand you may want to address what you rightfully feel are incorrect statetement if this is what onQ is saying (Xbox One X is overall more powerful... as it should be when you have an extra year of R&D AND $100 higher price tag wiggle room), but that was not the best way IMHO.
Click to expand...

Neither does help, to be honest. Until we know factual numbers of how much can be saved in comparison, this is essentially "secret sauce" like any other customization done by both Sony and MS.
 
C

c0de

Member
00ich said:
Wording is important here. Because I could see the PS4 pro archive a similar (but technically very different) image quality by eliminating the false contours from the temporal reconstruction.
Click to expand...

We should soon find out as there will be games which will do CB on both consoles. I guess DF will go into detail comparing the IQ from CB approaches.
 
M

Matt

Member
statham said:
may I please ask you a question, if you don't mind, why?

is that better?
Click to expand...
Not really.
hanspampel said:
I hope you talk about a new Xbox with different specs and the One branding.
Because we'll for sure see hardware revisions for the current Xbox One S and X down the line and also some other future Xbox consoles, or console like devices...
Click to expand...
Yeah. The next Xbox and PS5 will be new consoles with BC+, not modified versions of what we have now (and no One branding).
 
statham

statham

Member
Matt said:
Not really.

Yeah. The next Xbox and PS5 will be new consoles with BC+, not modified versions of what we have now (and no One branding).
Click to expand...
Roofles. You couldnt say that in the og post? Lets see in 2020. You think sony will want to start over again after the bad ps3 coming off the ps2 and the killer ps4? , no.
 
statham

statham

Member
Kyoufu said:
His original post, which quoted someone who said there could be another Xbox One with 12TF, said "there won't be another XBO".

Why can't you read, Statham.
Click to expand...
I highly disagree.

2020, XBOX ONE XXX, w/16 TFs


why is everyone speaking for Matt?
 
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