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[ScientificPizza]

The "problem" is entirely self-generated. I didn't create your fear of spoilers, nor do I have the faintest idea what counts as a spoiler for you. I don't have the time or interest in trying to cater to any of that. If I'm in the middle of a game and I want to experience it alone, I do the work to avoid any OTs or other threads that might discuss things before I'm ready.

You're presenting spoilers as a fear when really it's just an annoyance. OTs exist as a discussion for a game for people who are actively playing it or have finished it. If you've finished it use spoiler tags. If people acted with consideration you wouldn't have to work to avoid anything, that's the entire point

Here's the problem with that (and it's a problem that's been sorting itself out on the OT side pretty elegantly, or rather, as elegant as OT can get)

What's the point of having an "official" discussion thread if people can't freely discuss the thing everyone's there to talk about?

The notion of an OT being spoiler free is kinda fundamentally broken. If it's supposed to be the place for conversation on the story, gameplay, narrative, experience, tips 'n' trix whatever-the-hell, asking people to go there and then immediately telling them that 2/3rds of all possible topics of convo now have to be placed behind black bars (as low-effort as that might be, it's still intended to be constricting/restrictive) or everything is going to get derailed and there are guaranteed to be fights? That really doesn't make much sense.

I know that it's the habit here. It's the tradition maybe, more like, but it's also backwards. It makes no real sense.

What happened on OT is that review/preview threads would pop up, and since those threads are where everyone is on the same common ground (nobody's played it/watched it, they're all just waiting for reviews to drop) that is where spoiler free conversation goes. And what's more, the conversations tend to stay spoiler-free naturally with no constant reminders or pleading, because everyone's more or less on the same level playing field there, with the same intentions within the conversation.

The Official Threads are just naturally considered spoiler threads now, because if you've just seen something, or read something, or experienced something, it makes sense you're gonna want to talk about it openly with other people who have seen it. That's what a fuckin' official thread is for, right?

That's kinda the problem in a nutshell. Since spoilers as a concern is a relative new thing, and the internet has a memory all of 5 minutes long in terms of social mores, instead of stopping to think about the best way to implement discussion without making things janky for everyone, someone set up the consideration protocols fucking backward, and the rest of us just kinda... went along with it.

The whole thing is often approached completely backwards, and while yes, being inconsiderate is a dick move, and people could stand to have a lot more consideration when dealing with each other and their differing opinions, suggesting that people who have seen, read, experienced, or played a thing are now the ones that have to automatically assume the defensive and be extra careful not to talk with others about what they've experienced in a thread dedicated to that experience for the sake of people who basically are just wandering into conversations they're not ready to have yet?

Doesn't make any fuckin' sense.

Because you *can* discuss those things, it's the reason why we have spoiler tags. You want to go into an OT to discuss the ending of a game? Go ahead, just spoiler tag it. It's not a difficult concept at all. You can discuss whatever you like, and that has to include discussions at every level of the game, but the discussion that you want to have should not dictate other people's experiences

Well, there's really nothing to talk about if you're replies are just going to be basically "That's dumb and you're wrong.".

You're right I should have been more receptive to your *brilliant* reply

 

[Jangowuzhere]

Yes it is and it's still missing the point

Well, there's really nothing to talk about if you're replies are just going to be basically "That's dumb and you're wrong."

And not even talking about threads but I have multiple friends who will start asking questions about a piece of media they haven't finished and proposing theories and then get mad when I hint they are on the completely wrong track.

I had a friend who would get pissed if I talked negatively about a game or movie they did not watch or play yet. Me telling my experience to him was somehow a spoiler in some way. People can just be obnoxious at times when it comes to what should and shouldn't be discussed.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

So, basically you don't give a shit about the others. Cool.

Like I said, this forum had a real discussion about whether no hookshot in BOTW in relation to an interview where the developer says there is ho hookshot was a spoiler. 😒

If all this stuff is so important to the player they have to protect that. That isn't random forun posters job.

 

[ZiggyPalffyLA]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=243746406

In which someone feels the need to spoiler

Spoiler

Calamity Ganon.

That was my thread, and to be fair I did that not because I consider it a spoiler but because of the crazy spoiler culture that exists on GAF and the internet in general. And how hard is it to move your mouse to uncover the "spoiler"? Yet all that thread was about was people bitching about me being better safe than sorry. JFC you can't win here.

 

[Haly]

If people acted with consideration you wouldn't have to work to avoid anything, that's the entire point

Ah, here we go.

"If people acted with consideration you wouldn't have to work", tries to avoid admitting that "consideration" is itself work. I think people have analogized spoil tagging stuff with holding open a door. The thing is, that is work, although it's relatively minor work in the grand scheme of things, but with that in mind we can rewrite this sentence thusly

If people put in the extra work you wouldn't have to work to avoid anything, that's the entire point

There it is! This is one of, thought not the only, reasons I dislike people disingenuously putting the workload on everyone else, and then trying to make them out to be the bad guy for complaining about the additional burden.

 

[KHlover]

Honestly, at what point should be getting spoiled the responsability of the reader? Because I swear I've seen people getting pissed AT PUBLICY AVAILABLE INFORMATION by official sources in this very forum.

You can talk about courtesy and whatever, but at some point it has to be your own damn fault.

"I was on a media blackout for this game, thanks for spoiling me about *stuff that was in literally every official piece of media for the game*"

These people are the worst.

Spoiler

Yes, I'm talking about people in the BOTW
W OT

Spoiler

This is an awful use of spoiler tags.

 

[ScientificPizza]

Ah here we go.

"If people acted with consideration you wouldn't have to work", tries to avoid admitting that "consideration" is itself work. I think people have analogized spoil tagging stuff with holding open a door. The thing is, that is work, although it's relatively minor work in the grand scheme of things, but with that in mind we can rewrite this sentence thusly


There it is!

Hey if you consider consideration to be work you might just be an asshole

 

[LotusHD]

I had a friend who would get pissed if I talked negatively about a game or movie they did not watch or play yet. Me telling my experience to him was somehow a spoiler in some way. People can just be obnoxious at times when it comes to what should and shouldn't be discussed.

That's definitely not a spoiler, but I kind of get it? Like if you keep telling your friend that a game is terrible, then he's gonna play it with that in mind. Same thing if you say it's the best thing ever, or it has an amazing plot twist, etc. They'll be playing the game wondering where the twist is, or "when it gets "good", so to speak. So I can understand getting annoyed at least a little I guess.

That said, you got reviews, previews, impressions, and what not, and it's pretty much "media blackout" level to expect to play a game with virtually no info on how others have perceived it, so he needs to suck it up and not get pissed about it.

 

[Puruzi]

Yeah complaining about pre release material is the absolute fucking worst thing

That shit is not a spoiler, it's pre release because they want you to see it

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Because you *can* discuss those things, it's the reason why we have spoiler tags. You want to go into an OT to discuss the ending of a game? Go ahead, just spoiler tag it. It's not a difficult concept at all. You can discuss whatever you like, but the discussion that you want to have should not dictate other people's experiences

I don't feel like you actually attempted to engage with the reasoning addressing the stance you're taking here, and why I feel like that reasoning is set up to be implemented backwards from how conversation normally works in the first place.

No, the concept isn't difficult. But it is backwards. People tend to stay spoiler free when they're all generally in the same mode regarding a piece of entertainment. Take a review thread: If nobody's played the game, the game hasn't come out, the movie hasn't released, the book isn't published, then most people are going to just naturally avoid trying to spoil anyone, or themselves. In most cases, they're incapable of spoiling anyone because they literally don't have the information to do so.

Now, imagine those information-free people being told the best place to have that discussion is in a different room, filled with people who have already seen the fuckin thing, and now everyone else who has that frame of reference, who has shared in the experience, is somewhat muffled and told they have to wave people over into a special corner of that room if they want to talk about what they all just saw because the information-free people feel its their right to be in the middle of the room and not have things "ruined" for them.

That's how Official Threads work here. It's backwards. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't alleviate spoilerphobia, it enhances it. It encourages it. It almost commodifies the sense of grievance, and damn near gamifies conversation in a way where official threads are less about conversation and more about calling fouls.

 

[Starlightmuse]

Like I said, this forum had a real discussion about whether no hookshot in BOTW in relation to an interview where the developer says there is ho hookshot was a spoiler. ��

If all this stuff is so important to the player they have to protect that. That isn't random forun posters job.

Like I said before, I don't complain about it at all because I find stupid to be mad about it or the alolan raichu or the name of the Dark Souls swords. I also understand that what for me is a spoiler it may not be a spoiler for other people, so people who are over sensible about it should be careful themselves, I agree with you in that. I'm not speaking for the people getting mad in the Zelda thread because somebody wrote that Ganon is in the game, because that's just nuts.
But there are things (like, again, I said before in my other posts) like death of major characters or endings that are obviously spoilers. And there have been some people in this same thread that say that they don't give a shit about spoiling the ending of a movie in a completely different thread or spoiling whatever they feel like about anything if it's 6 months old. That's just being a dick and don't giving a shit, and that's what I'm complaining about.

Hey if you consider consideration to be work you might just be an asshole

Basically. One click ----> Work

 

[Haly]

Hey if you consider consideration to be work you might just be an asshole

Do you think people who work for charity organizations are not still working?

 

[fester]

So, basically you don't give a shit about the others. Cool.

I care about others, but I don't pretend to cater to their idiosyncratic phobias.

No, I'm just not making up things out of my ass. Show me the receipts about people not caring about spoiling them books 200 years ago and perhaps you'll be able to call me an ignorant then.

Ancient Greek audiences knew the stories of their plays ahead of time, especially their tragedies. It was also similar for much of Shakespeare. Might also want to investigate "dramatic irony" as a long-standing narrative device. The value of the story was found in the journey the characters took, not relying on suspense or a cheap twist at the end to entertain the viewer.

Sorry I paid attention in English and drama classes.

 

[ScientificPizza]

I don't feel like you actually attempted to engage with the reasoning addressing the stance you're taking here, and why I feel like that reasoning is set up to be implemented backwards from how conversation normally works in the first place.

No, the concept isn't difficult. But it is backwards. People tend to stay spoiler free when they're all generally in the same mode regarding a piece of entertainment. If nobody's played the game, the game hasn't come out, the movie hasn't released, the book isn't published, then most people are going to just naturally avoid trying to spoil anyone, or themselves. In most cases, they're incapable of it because they don't have the information.

Now, imagine those information-free people being told the best place to have that discussion is in a different room, filled with people who have already seen the fuckin thing, and now everyone else who has that frame of reference, who has shared in the experience, is somewhat muffled and told they have to wave people over into a special corner if they want to talk about what they all just saw because the information-free people feel its their right to be in the room and not have things "ruined" for them.

That's how Official Threads work here. It's backwards. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't alleviate spoilerphobia, it enhances it. It encourages it. It almost commodifies the sense of grievance, and damn near gamifies conversation in a way where official threads are less about conversation and more about calling fouls.

That's absolutely not true. OT's work as communal places for people who are playing the game, especially at launch. They are places to have discussions about all facets of the game and always have been. The only time spoilers become an issue in those threads is when people talk openly about major plot points or moments or endings that could detract from someone's playthrough. To say that that is the fault of the OT is false, it's the fault of users

The easy solution to this entire problem for everyone already exists and it's spoiler tags. The only argument I've seen against their use is "but i don't want to have to click on them " which is lazy and dumb

Do you think people who work for charity organizations are not still working?

Do you think that all charity organisations do is sit around being considerate? Do you think there is a charity for people who suffer from false equivilances?

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Is it not assholish behavior to post a spoiler about something solely as a "fuck you" to someone? That seems pretty clearcut "acting like a dick," behavior.

How do you consider "you purposefully spoiling something for someone else makes you look like a dick" to be the equal, yet opposite of the act itself?



Okay, then you're not a dick.

Acting like a decent person doesn't entitle you to some reward. I don't always get a thank you for letting people merge or holding doors open. It's unequivocally for the better to do stuff like that, and I know the inconvenience on my part is miniscule.

Marking a spoiler has never hindered my ability to discuss a game. I can break down everything I like about Hollow Knight without catching people by super with spoilers, for the most part. If I cannot avoid offending someone because even stuff like here being upgrades for the weapons and powers is a spoiler for them, I don't need to get indignant over that because I'm not expecting anything in the first place.

I love you.

xevis trying not to spoil Shadow of the Colossus for no reason, 2017

I love you, too.

As for basically everyone on the opposite side of the argument, well. I have the opposite feeling for you, honestly. Because you represent that significant percentage of humanity that straight-up doesn't care about considering other people, and would prefer to just be assholes because you're allowed to.

Earlier, someone mentioned that the "statute of limitations on spoilers" hadn't been brought up in the thread, but my very first post ITT was talking about just that, though that aspect of it was largely ignored.

I actually made a thread about that very issue almost 3 years ago. I'm not gonna read all 11 pages to verify this, but as I recall, it was basically me vs everyone else saying "what? that's stupid. I'm gonna just spoil shit. fuck you." As a result of that thread, for a time, I had honestly given up on the concept of avoiding spoilers, instead preferring to dive headlong into them in an effort to rip the bandages off quickly to lessen the likely-inevitable pain.

I didn't really harp on this much in the post, but when I watched the film I was talking about after reading the synopsis, it fucking sucked. Not because the film was bad, but because my enjoyment of it was definitely lessened by foreknowledge of its plot. I never did that shit to myself again.

Anyway, this thread is sad. Compared to mine, it's arguably worse, since you have people practically admitting to conducting themselves like complete assholes, I suppose once they realized that the mods were clearly aware of their behavior and definitely letting them get away with it. As an aside, it's interesting to me that a number of the people that were on that same side of the debate 3 years ago are currently banned.

But, in its own way, this thread is heartening, because of the number of people (like the good folks I mentioned earlier) who are actually speaking up for the side of consideration of the people you share air with. I just wish we weren't such a small minority.

In a way, this thread is a microcosm for Trump's America. Most people are assholes, and have become less afraid to say so and conduct themselves in that way, loud and proud. Then you have a tiny fraction of people who say "no, fuck that!" To those fighting the good fight: keep on keeping on. Everyone else can go take a long walk off a short pier, for all I care.

 

[TheFatMan]

I don't know what all this silly arguing in this thread is about.....that said.

You should still play Horizon, it's one of the best games of the year, and of the last few years....don't let a single spoiler ruin the enjoyment of that game.

 

[Rickenslacker]

That's how Official Threads work here. It's backwards. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't alleviate spoilerphobia, it enhances it. It encourages it. It almost commodifies the sense of grievance, and damn near gamifies conversation in a way where official threads are less about conversation and more about calling fouls.

I pretty much avoid OTs until I've completed a game and then jump in to the discussion afterwards, so I'm right there with you. I don't have some compulsion to be reading and looking into the thing I'm playing while I'm in the process of playing it, so I take it on myself to avoid spoilers, because it's a fairly easy thing to do.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

That's absolutely not true.

I disagree entirely, and I've seen the ease of discussion (and the quality) increase over in Off-Topic as the problem sorta fixed itself over the course of multiple OTs.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

I don't feel like you actually attempted to engage with the reasoning addressing the stance you're taking here, and why I feel like that reasoning is set up to be implemented backwards from how conversation normally works in the first place.

No, the concept isn't difficult. But it is backwards. People tend to stay spoiler free when they're all generally in the same mode regarding a piece of entertainment. Take a review thread: If nobody's played the game, the game hasn't come out, the movie hasn't released, the book isn't published, then most people are going to just naturally avoid trying to spoil anyone, or themselves. In most cases, they're incapable of spoiling anyone because they literally don't have the information to do so.

Now, imagine those information-free people being told the best place to have that discussion is in a different room, filled with people who have already seen the fuckin thing, and now everyone else who has that frame of reference, who has shared in the experience, is somewhat muffled and told they have to wave people over into a special corner of that room if they want to talk about what they all just saw because the information-free people feel its their right to be in the middle of the room and not have things "ruined" for them.

That's how Official Threads work here. It's backwards. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't alleviate spoilerphobia, it enhances it. It encourages it. It almost commodifies the sense of grievance, and damn near gamifies conversation in a way where official threads are less about conversation and more about calling fouls.

Damn. You put it better that I ever could about OTs.

Being in the middle of Horizon: Zero Dawn (example), and digging around in the OT is just asking for trouble.

 

[fester]

Hey if you consider consideration to be work you might just be an asshole

I consider people telling me what and how I can discuss things on an Internet forum to assholes. Have we reached the impasse yet?

 

[Starlightmuse]

I care about others

Nah, you don't give a shit. If you cared about the others you wouldn't mind doing a click.


PS: I keep waiting for you to show me the receipts on the 200 year old not-spoiler-caring society too.

I consider people telling me what and how I can discuss things on an Internet forum to assholes. Have we reached the impasse yet?

If you think that people who tells you how to behave in a respectful society are assholes you might be a sociopath
i mean you can stay sit in a bus when there's a disabled person standing and everyone ask you to lend your seat, but you're the asshole, not them

 

[KHlover]

Nah, you don't give a shit. If you cared about the others you wouldn't mind doing a click.


PS: I keep waiting for you to show me the receipts on the 200 year old not-spoiler-caring society too.




If you think that people who tells you how to behave in a respectful society are assholes you might be a sociopath

http://m.neogaf.com/compose.php?do=postreply&t=1411716&p=244617316&page=9

 

[ScientificPizza]

I consider people telling me what and how I can discuss things on an Internet forum to assholes. Have we reached the impasse yet?

You're right the people who don't want to be considerate of other people are the true heroes

 

[MHWilliams]

As for basically everyone on the opposite side of the argument, well. I have the opposite feeling for you, honestly. Because you represent that significant percentage of humanity that straight-up doesn't care about considering other people, and would prefer to just be assholes because you're allowed to.

Again, what is the level of responsibility afforded to those who do not wish to be spoiled? It's odd that no one wants to

To use the door metaphor, I hold open doors for people. But there's also a complex mental calculation: how far away is the door? how many people am I holding the door open for? Are they carrying anything? How fast are they moving?

And if someone doesn't hold the door for more under a normal circumstance, they are not... in your parlance "asshole".

Basically, every type of social consideration has limits. And yet, there are none in your view of spoilers.

 

[Starlightmuse]

http://m.neogaf.com/compose.php?do=postreply&t=1411716&p=244617316&page=9

Lol thanks I didn't see it.

I care about others, but I don't pretend to cater to their idiosyncratic phobias.




Ancient Greek audiences knew the stories of their plays ahead of time, especially their tragedies. It was also similar for much of Shakespeare. Might also want to investigate "dramatic irony" as a long-standing narrative device. The value of the story was found in the journey the characters took, not relying on suspense or a cheap twist at the end to entertain the viewer.

Sorry I paid attention in English and drama classes.

Yeah, but you are forgetting the part where I speak about books. Plays are a different medium, different kind of entertainment and shorter stories. It isn't the same at all as watching a TV series for years/months or a book at all, if you paid that much attention to the drama clases you should know such a basic thing.
It's pretty similar as someone spoiling me the ending of a romantic comedy movie, I couldn't care less about it. Spoil me key points in Winds of Winter after years reading the books and I can tell you I'll be mad.

So, welp, keep trying I guess.

 

[NervousXtian]

I mean if by about half way through Zero Dawn you didn't basically know how the whole thing was going to end... you're not very bright. I mean not down to the precise details.. but it was essentially a Jurassic Park story about humankind. Just not you know the dinos are mechanical.

I'd still finish it though.. thought it does have a way to overstay it's welcome by a few hours.. but that's usually the players own fault for not completing the storyline before trying to max everything out and grinding pointless shit.

... btw I'm not spoilering this.. but all the special packs from vendors are worthless. You NEVER get anything of value. Ignore them.. actually almost anything you can get loot wise is just about worthless.

 

[LotusHD]

We have people who are against the bolded in this very thread, at least in the case of games. And many have stated there's no difference between games, movie, TV, etc.

I know, I was just saying that things work differently for the manga threads around here, but yes, I am aware that there are those that don't care at all to make the distinction.

Here's the problem with that (and it's a problem that's been sorting itself out on the Off-Topic side pretty elegantly, or rather, as elegant as OT can get)

What's the point of having an "official" discussion thread if people can't freely discuss the thing everyone's there to talk about?

The notion of an OT being spoiler free is kinda fundamentally broken. If it's supposed to be the place for conversation on the story, gameplay, narrative, experience, tips 'n' trix whatever-the-hell, asking people to go there and then immediately telling them that 2/3rds of all possible topics of convo now have to be placed behind black bars (as low-effort as that might be, it's still intended to be constricting/restrictive) or everything is going to get derailed and there are guaranteed to be fights? That really doesn't make much sense.

I know that it's the habit here. It's the tradition maybe, more like, but it's also backwards. It makes no real sense.

What happened on Off-Topic is that review/preview threads would pop up, and since those threads are where everyone is on the same common ground (nobody's played it/watched it, they're all just waiting for reviews to drop) that is where spoiler free conversation goes. And what's more, the conversations tend to stay spoiler-free naturally with no constant reminders or pleading, because everyone's more or less on the same level playing field there, with the same intentions within the conversation.

The Official Threads are just naturally considered spoiler threads now, because if you've just seen something, or read something, or experienced something, it makes sense you're gonna want to talk about it openly with other people who have seen it. That's what a fuckin' official thread is for, right?

That's kinda the problem in a nutshell. Since spoilers as a concern is a relative new thing, and the internet has a memory all of 5 minutes long in terms of social mores, instead of stopping to think about the best way to implement discussion without making things janky for everyone, someone set up the consideration protocols fucking backward, and the rest of us just kinda... went along with it.

The whole thing is often approached completely backwards, and while yes, being inconsiderate is a dick move, and people could stand to have a lot more consideration when dealing with each other and their differing opinions, suggesting that people who have seen, read, experienced, or played a thing are now the ones that have to automatically assume the defensive and be extra careful not to talk with others about what they've experienced—in a thread dedicated to that experience—for the sake of people who basically are just wandering into conversations they're not even ready to have yet?

Doesn't make any fuckin' sense.

Yea I've noticed that things have changed in OT, and probably for the better. Where like you said, the review thread is pretty much where the spoiler free conversation goes, so there's no point in making both an OT thread and a spoiler thread.

I dunno though, what do you do with games, especially super long ones like P5? If we do the same thing, then a good number of people won't really want to discuss it until they've beaten the game. And I guess that's part of the point you're making. But like... should we not have a spoiler thread for that and just call it a day? I'm not gonna act like it's this perfect, elegant solution, but I get wanting to be able to discuss certain facets of the game, or ask for advice, but refrain from knowing the major story beats or what have you. I suppose it's ultimately selfish, but I understand the reasoning behind this "tradition" of having both an OT thread and a spoiler thread.

As for how the OT side does it lately, I mean, it makes a lot more sense for movies. 2 hour runtime or so, you get it out the way, and then you just go into its respective thread to discuss it. Same for weekly shows like GoT; once the episode has aired, you're free to discuss it, don't gotta spoiler shit for anyone.

 

[fester]

You're right the people who don't want to be considerate of other people are the true heroes

You continue to assume that the "considerate" thing is to block off spoilers in black bars, while others have said that the more considerate thing is for you to block yourself off from threads if you are concerned about the content of the discussion.

One demands work from the individual while the other demands work of everyone else. I'm going to continue to say that the more "considerate" thing is for the individual to own their fear of spoilers and stop imposing requirements on everyone else.

 

[Jangowuzhere]

That's definitely not a spoiler, but I kind of get it? Like if you keep telling your friend that a game is terrible, then he's gonna play it with that in mind. Same thing if you say it's the best thing over, or it has an amazing plot twist, etc. So I can understand getting annoyed at least a little.

That said, you got reviews, impressions, and what not, and it's pretty much "media blackout" level to expect to play a game with virtually no info on how others have perceived it, so he needs to suck it up and not get pissed about it.

But I wasn't even being exaggerative like your examples. My friend hadn't played Batman: Arkham Knight yet, so he asks me how I'm enjoying the game. I talk about how I really like the game, but I make a brief mention saying that the main villains are pretty shitty. My friend gives me this "come on dude" expression on his face, like I shouldn't even be talking about stuff like that.

I don't know, nothing I said should change his perception on the game when he plays it. What's the point of talking about anything if a person only wants to hear general unopinionated details and nothing else?

That said, I do find the stuff you mentioned to be pretty annoying. A lot of people here on GAF are super hyperbolic on calling Black Ops 3 the "worst FPS campaign of all time" or something like that. I come into the game expecting the absolute worst, and it seemed...fine? I probably would feel different if I didn't have so many people being so extreme with the negativity.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

I love you.




I love you, too.

As for basically everyone on the opposite side of the argument, well. I have the opposite feeling for you, honestly. Because you represent that significant percentage of humanity that straight-up doesn't care about considering other people, and would prefer to just be assholes because you're allowed to.

Earlier, someone mentioned that the "statute of limitations on spoilers" hadn't been brought up in the thread, but my very first post ITT was talking about just that, though that aspect of it was largely ignored.

I actually made a thread about that very issue almost 3 years ago. I'm not gonna read all 11 pages to verify this, but as I recall, it was basically me vs everyone else saying "what? that's stupid. I'm gonna just spoil shit. fuck you." As a result of that thread, for a time, I had honestly given up on the concept of avoiding spoilers, instead preferring to dive headlong into them in an effort to rip the bandages off quickly to lessen the likely-inevitable pain.

I didn't really harp on this much in the post, but when I watched the film I was talking about after reading the synopsis, it fucking sucked. Not because the film was bad, but because my enjoyment of it was definitely lessened by foreknowledge of its plot. I never did that shit to myself again.

Anyway, this thread is sad. Compared to mine, it's arguably worse, since you have people practically admitting to conducting themselves like complete assholes, I suppose once they realized that the mods were clearly aware of their behavior and definitely letting them get away with it. As an aside, it's interesting to me that a number of the people that were on that same side of the debate 3 years ago are currently banned.

But, in its own way, this thread is heartening, because of the number of people (like the good folks I mentioned earlier) who are actually speaking up for the side of consideration of the people you share air with. I just wish we weren't such a small minority.

In a way, this thread is a microcosm for Trump's America. Most people are assholes, and have become less afraid to say so and conduct themselves in that way, loud and proud. Then you have a tiny fraction of people who say "no, fuck that!" To those fighting the good fight: keep on keeping on. Everyone else can go take a long walk off a short pier, for all I care.

Dude, what? What you were proposing in that thread is absurd. The reason people don't care about talking openly about spoilers of anything after a few years is because it is no one fault that you didn't watch x movie or even care if you did. It is absurd to even propose such thing, especially when they become part of the mainstream culture or subculture.

Painting people that openly talk spoilers from any story in any kind of medium past, say, 5 years, as assholes then you should rethink about this particular subject.

Yes, there are people that are assholes and have the mentality that you describe. The majority? They don't care about such minor thing as spoilers from old as fuck movies.

 

[ScientificPizza]

You continue to assume that the "considerate" thing is to block off spoilers in black bars, while others have said that the more considerate thing is for you to block yourself off from threads if you are concerned about the content of the discussion.

One demands work from the individual while the other demands work of everyone else. I'm going to continue to say that the more "considerate" thing is for the individual to own their fear of spoilers and stop imposing requirements on everyone else.

No, that's not the more considerate thing to do. Either someone has an entire game spoiled for them or you have to click on a black bar. If you considering a mouse click to be work I don't know what to tell you

The difference between simone having a game spoiled for them and someone having to do the gruelling and arduous task of a mouse click is as wide of a chasm as you can get. Just because you're too lazy to lift your finger does not mean that everyone else should remove themselves from a conversation

 

[LotusHD]

But I wasn't even being exaggerative like your examples. My friend hadn't played Batman: Arkham Knight yet, so he asks me how I'm enjoying the game. I talk about how I really like the game, but I make a brief mention saying that the main villains are pretty shitty. My friend gives me this "come on dude" expression on his face, like I shouldn't even be talking about stuff like that.

I don't know, nothing I said should change his perception on the game when he plays it. What's the point of talking about anything if a person only wants to hear general unopinionated details and nothing else?

Lmao, it's even worse if he asked you for his opinion. But yea, it is what it is, he just has to get over it.

That said, I do find the stuff you mentioned to be pretty annoying. A lot of people here on GAF are super hyperbolic on calling Black Ops 3 the "worst FPS campaign of all time" or something like that. I come into the game expecting the absolute worst, and it seemed...fine? I probably would feel different if I didn't have so many people being so extreme with the negativity.

I had that experience with Ch. 13 from FFXV. Everyone said it was the worst, I got to it, really wasn't that bad. But yea, I myself try to do a better job of like not trying to be too hyperbolic, especially in terms of praising a game.

 

[Haly]

I was just compared to Trump supporters (who, as a digression, might I add, may be responsible for 17 million Americans losing healthcare in the next 10 or so years) because of my stance on spoilers.

But yeah keep on going with the common courtesy, decency and consideration spiel. Veeeeery convincing.

 

[ScientificPizza]

I was just compared to Trump supporters (who, as a digression, might I add, may be responsible for 17 million Americans losing healthcare in the next 10 or so years) because of my stance on spoilers.

But yeah keep on going with the common courtesy, decency and consideration spiel. Veeeeery convincing.

Thats funny because someone earlier implied that I don't think charity organisations don't do work because I said I didn't think common courtesy should be a hard thing for people to do. People sure are crazy in this thread

 

[fester]

No, that's not the more considerate thing to do. Either someone has an entire game spoiled for them or you have to click on a black bar. If you considering a mouse click to be work I don't know what to tell you

The difference between simone having a game spoiled for them and someone having to do the gruelling and arduous task of a mouse click is as wide of a chasm as you can get. Just because you're too lazy to lift your finger does not mean that everyone else should remove themselves from a conversation

How the hell am I supposed to know what needs to be turned into a black bar to meet your spoiler-free requirements? How do the thousands of other people know that? What happens when your definition of a spoiler is different than others? Is it just the ending that's a spoiler, or does it also include the names of places you're visiting in the game? How do I know when it's OK to start talking freely about a topic? 6 months? A year? Is there a method I should be using to keep track of all this?

Seems to me it's a whole lot less effort if people concerned about spoilers manage their own personal needs with regards to them. Anything else strikes me as selfish.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I dunno though, what do you do with games, especially super long ones like P5? If we do the same thing, then a good number of people won't really want to discuss it until they've beaten the game. And I guess that's part of the point you're making. But like... should we not have a spoiler thread for that and just call it a day? I'm not gonna act like it's this perfect, elegant solution, but I get wanting to be able to discuss certain facets of the game, or ask for advice, but refrain from knowing the major story beats or what have you.

Nah, you're right, with long, long games, that's not as easy, but then again - that seems to be kind of a situation where either you might wanna stick around the review thread until you're finished (since again, in this scenario, review threads/pre-release threads are automatically, by definition, spoiler-free), and then hit the OT once you've finished, thereby avoiding getting things you consider valuable to your experience "ruined" for you?

I guess the question here is this:

If you value the preservation of the hypothetical experience to be had in its "purest " form (whatever that might even be) is placing yourself in the room where people—who have already had the experience you're protecting for—are milling about and talking amongst themselves really the best move?

I usually, when I play a game, don't go into the OT until after I've beaten the game for that very reason, although sometimes I'll find myself stuck, or held up, at which point I make the decision for myself if getting past a certain part is worth risking the hit to that hypothetical "pure" experience. Sometimes I say yeah, and I dive in. Sometimes I avoid it. To be honest, by the time I'm at that point, my immersion and enjoyment has gotten fucked with enough that the spoilers I invite are no longer detrimental to the experience, or at least not as detrimental as the frustration that has caused me to seek outside help.

But in that instance: I'm also okay with the idea that I can follow along with a conversation without having to join in. That there's worth and value to just reading the conversations as they were happening, and so it doesn't really matter if I jump into that stream all that late - it's still there, and that way I've managed to preserve the experience I want for myself and enriched that experience with the group's running commentary after the fact. And often, the conversation at that point can still be live (and a good quote or two can reinvigorate it as if it hadn't stopped from where I'm picking the thread back up anyway)

It seems thats what's tripping people up aside from the easy grievance of calling foul on people for being inconsiderate about talking about their experience with the game/movie/etc, is that people feel they are owed, automatically, both the purest entertainment experience possible and the right to be an active participant in conversations about that experience as other people are having it (but not them).

That's one of the weird bits of unfairness that adamant spoilerphobes seem to not address much in their complaints. They're demanding access to unfriendly rooms so they may be part of already ongoing conversations that are almost inherently at cross-purposes to their intent with the game/movie, and requesting the people in those rooms restrict themselves for the benefit of both their need to be part of the conversation and their specific wants regarding the entertainment in question.

 

[Haly]

Thats funny because someone earlier implied that I don't think charity organisations don't do work because I said I didn't think common courtesy should be a hard thing for people to do. People sure are crazy in this thread

I'll let you decide which is worse, Trump Supporters or "false equivalency".

That's one of the weird bits of unfairness that adamant spoilerphobes seem to not address much in their complaints. They're demanding access to unfriendly rooms so they may be part of already ongoing conversations that are almost inherently at cross-purposes to their intent with the game/movie, and requesting the people in those rooms restrict themselves for the benefit of both their need to be part of the conversation and their specific wants regarding the entertainment in question.

They want to capture a specific cultural period after the information revolution but before social media reached its current stature, where people can talk and discuss about the latest things online but are still isolated enough to avoid the immediacy of thousands (if not millions) of people experiencing things the moment they're available. I'd peg this at around '05 to '10.

 

[Twilight Princess]

Some dude posted a spoiler in the title when horizon first came out, he didn't spoil the ending but it was dumb as hell.

 

[ScientificPizza]

How the hell am I supposed to know what needs to be turned into a black bar to meet your spoiler-free requirements? How do the thousands of other people know that? What happens when your definition of a spoiler is different than others? Is it just the ending that's a spoiler, or does it also include the names of places you're visiting in the game? How do I know when it's OK to start talking freely about a topic? 6 months? A year? Is there a method I should be using to keep track of all this?

Seems to me it's a whole lot less effort if people concerned about spoilers manage their own personal needs with regards to them. Anything else strikes me as selfish.

Maybe just use common sense, and if people are upset with someone that you didn't spoiler tag learn from that experience for how you handle them in the future

It's not difficult, and the only selfish thing I have seen in this thread are the countless people say "but i just want to say what i want to say and it's other people's fault if they don't like it"

I'll let you decide which is worse, Trump Supporters or "false equivalency".

Oh yeah, the thing you said was shitty, but not *as* shitty, so that makes it good! That's how life works!

 

[Bobby Roberts]

They want to capture a specific period after the information revolution but before social media reached its current stature, where people can talk and discuss about the latest things online but are still isolated enough to avoid the immediacy of thousands (if not millions) of people experiencing things the moment they're available. I'd peg this at around '05 to '10.

Yeah, this definitely feels right.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Here's the problem with that (and it's a problem that's been sorting itself out on the Off-Topic side pretty elegantly, or rather, as elegant as OT can get)

What's the point of having an "official" discussion thread if people can't freely discuss the thing everyone's there to talk about?

The notion of an OT being spoiler free is kinda fundamentally broken. If it's supposed to be the place for conversation on the story, gameplay, narrative, experience, tips 'n' trix whatever-the-hell, asking people to go there and then immediately telling them that 2/3rds of all possible topics of convo now have to be placed behind black bars (as low-effort as that might be, it's still intended to be constricting/restrictive) or everything is going to get derailed and there are guaranteed to be fights? That really doesn't make much sense.

I know that it's the habit here. It's the tradition maybe, more like, but it's also backwards. It makes no real sense.

What happened on Off-Topic is that review/preview threads would pop up, and since those threads are where everyone is on the same common ground (nobody's played it/watched it, they're all just waiting for reviews to drop) that is where spoiler free conversation goes. And what's more, the conversations tend to stay spoiler-free naturally with no constant reminders or pleading, because everyone's more or less on the same level playing field there, with the same intentions within the conversation.

The Official Threads are just naturally considered spoiler threads now, because if you've just seen something, or read something, or experienced something, it makes sense you're gonna want to talk about it openly with other people who have seen it. That's what a fuckin' official thread is for, right?

That's kinda the problem in a nutshell. Since spoilers as a concern is a relative new thing, and the internet has a memory all of 5 minutes long in terms of social mores, instead of stopping to think about the best way to implement discussion without making things janky for everyone, someone set up the consideration protocols fucking backward, and the rest of us just kinda... went along with it.

The whole thing is often approached completely backwards, and while yes, being inconsiderate is a dick move, and people could stand to have a lot more consideration when dealing with each other and their differing opinions, suggesting that people who have seen, read, experienced, or played a thing are now the ones that have to automatically assume the defensive and be extra careful not to talk with others about what they've experienced—in a thread dedicated to that experience—for the sake of people who basically are just wandering into conversations they're not even ready to have yet?

Doesn't make any fuckin' sense.

I quite disagree with this interpretation with regards to game OTs.

With a thread full of unmarked spoilers, it'd be difficult for people to ask about a minor point of the game (quest location, asking for tips, simply posting spoiler-free impressions, etc), which to me is the greatest advantage of game OTs. Game OTs, to me, aren't so much for discussion of the spoilery aspects of a game as much as exchanging tips, general impressions and the like.

With a TV show/manga, the OTs don't serve such a purpose, and so I can see why they'd simply become spoiler threads themselves. No problem with that.

 

[fester]

Maybe just use common sense, and if people are upset with someone that you didn't spoiler tag learn from that experience for how you handle them in the future

It's not difficult, and the only selfish thing I have seen in this thread are the countless people say "but i just want to say what i want to say and it's other people's fault if they don't like it"

Nah, Bobby Roberts is hitting the nail on the head: You want the right to have an "unspoiled" entertainment experience while at the same time particpate in the middle of a conversation about it. Or to put in layman's terms, have your cake and eat it, too. Until you're able to address that point, there's really no conversation to be had here.

 

[TwoDurans]

The last of us are

Spoiler

Ellie and Joel.

. Really.

 

[Haly]

Yeah, this definitely feels right.

The long term problem is that by creating a culture where spoilers "matter", entertainment will change to cater to the deliverance of twists, furthering the obsession with spoilers and so on in a feedback loop. You can see this effect with Game of Thrones, and how it's gotten more and more twisty and pulpy as it moves away from the books. A lot of narrative heavy AAA games build their narratives around twists as well.

It wouldn't be so bad if we could grow out of it eventually but younger generations are also being raised in this spoiler sensitive environment so it's like we're just trying to live in the 00's forever.

 

[ScientificPizza]

Nah, Bobby Roberts is hitting the nail on the head: You want the right to have an "unspoiled" entertainment experience while at the same time particpate in the middle of a conversation about it. Or to put in layman's terms, have your cake and eat it, too. Until you're able to address that point, there's really no conversation to be had here.

That is not having your cake and eating it too. I have been addressing that point this entire time. You should not be disqualified from a discussion because people are too lazy to use spoiler tags. There is no reason not to use them, as evidenced by the fact that you haven't come up with a single valid reason. You don't get to dictate the conversations that people have because you don't want to be considerate. Spoiler tags allow everyone to have conversations about a game at every level of involvement.

 

[More_Badass]

Nah, Bobby Roberts is hitting the nail on the head: You want the right to have an "unspoiled" entertainment experience while at the same time particpate in the middle of a conversation about it. Or to put in layman's terms, have your cake and eat it, too. Until you're able to address that point, there's really no conversation to be had here.

I mean, usually you're not participating in the conversation if you're not watching or playing the thing or haven't watched said episode/movie yet. Like I haven't been in the Yakuza or Horizon OTs for weeks/months.

Not really seeing the "have your cake and eat it too" thing as the rationale here. Or we just talking movie or show OTs? Because games still get spoiler threads

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I quite disagree with this interpretation with regards to game OTs.

With a thread full of unmarked spoilers, it'd be difficult for people to ask about a minor point of the game (quest location, asking for tips, simply posting spoiler-free impressions, etc), which to me is the greatest advantage of game OTs. Game OTs, to me, aren't so much for discussion of the spoilery aspects of a game as much as exchanging tips, general impressions and the like.

Yeah, Lotus brought up a similar concern upthread, and I coughed up another stream of garmonbozia that kinda addresses how game OTs (especially for longer games) sorta stretch that

but as Fester & I have been basically pointing out: A whole lot of the problem comes when people who are protecting for the purity of their gaming experience think they also should be allowed to place themselves in the middle of current conversations filled with people who are ahead of them, or have finished.

And at some point it seems like the responsibility for balancing those two cross-purpose desires comes down less to the people who have finished the game, and more to the people still playing it.

But I get the concern you're talking about , and I've had to wrestle with that myself. But I also think if all you're trying to talk about are general impressions - that seems way more in line with the purview of a Review Thread, doesn't it? Especially considering how frequently review threads are considered automatically spoiler free, and are more or less trying to do not much more than give general impressions anyway.

You should not be disqualified from a discussion because people are too lazy to use spoiler tags.

But what if your disqualification hinges more on your lack of actually being prepped to have the discussions that are happening? You're not really addressing that point, you're just repeating over and over again that you deserve as a matter of fact to be in the room because... you deserve to be in the room.

It doesn't occur to you that your presence, and the lack of experience/knowledge that comes with it, is a hindrance to the free-flowing discussion you're saying should be happening.

 

[sonicmj1]

There are two sort of separate discussions going on here.

If you're talking directly to someone who has just started or is thinking about starting some work and you immediately decide to talk about the ending in detail, then that's inconsiderate. When you engage in dialogue with someone, be respectful of where they're coming from.

But I am absolutely on board with not having to walk on eggshells in every part of the internet about every conversation about every fictional work known to man.

I'm (slowly) playing through The House in Fata Morgana right now. The only thread about it on GAF is the "spoiler-free" OT, which is a goddamn mess of bars. Some people posting spoilers are three hours into the game; some people are almost done, or talking about the ending. As someone starting the game, or even someone in the middle of it, I have no clue what I can look at. It's an awful place for discussing stuff. Just say the whole game's going to be discussed, and I'll go somewhere else. There's no system that will actually let all parties interact and have meaningful conversations about the story.

When people are free to talk about the entire work, they can actually engage with complex aspects of it, to discuss themes, the particularities of certain characters, and so on. When people are asked to censor themselves from addressing any elements of the plot, discussion inevitably drags towards deciding whether something is awesome or shit, which is boring.

It's a little more complicated with games because people (usually!) don't consider gameplay stuff to be spoilers, and it makes sense to have a space to ask about tips and stuff. But I still generally feel like people are more cautious about this stuff than they need to be. I've had some of my favorite endings of all time spoiled for me in advance, and I was still super interested in what happened because I wanted to know how the plot reached that point, and I was impressed by the execution of the event.

There are a lot of differences between speaking to an individual and speaking to a community.

 

[televator]

Yeah, I was expecting bigger twists to the story. Like maybe you weren't even on Earth to begin with, but another planet where human colonization took a real bad turn. Turns out everything was more or less what it appeared to be though, but that's not what really drew me into the game anyway. Killing robots was fun, the graphics were superb, and the protagonist was a breath of fresh air.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Again, what is the level of responsibility afforded to those who do not wish to be spoiled? It's odd that no one wants to

To use the door metaphor, I hold open doors for people. But there's also a complex mental calculation: how far away is the door? how many people am I holding the door open for? Are they carrying anything? How fast are they moving?

And if someone doesn't hold the door for more under a normal circumstance, they are not... in your parlance "asshole".

Basically, every type of social consideration has limits. And yet, there are none in your view of spoilers.

What's happening in this thread is a strawman argument on the part of everyone who disagrees with the OT.

"You should just get off the internet, then!"

"I'm not tiptoeing around spoilers. By the way, so and so dies at the end of such and such. "

"You're telling me we have to just have black bars everywhere in every post now? And I have to keep clicking them just to participate in a basic discussion about a thing without spoiling people?!"

Plum already posted his guide. The answer to the question of "where is the line on spoilers?" is use your goddamn brain. Period.

Showing up in this thread just to say "such and such kills such and such" is the exact type of spoiler you should never type. *Spoilers for book 9 of X*

Spoiler

<spoiler>

is basically all you'd ever need to do, to the extent that you want to freely discuss spoilers outside of a spoiler thread.

I will admit that there is a debate around the question of "what is a spoiler?" but I submit that the aforementioned question is not, in any way, being asked by the people who agree with me. And I don't think the people that are asking it are being honest, either, because they're the same ones saying "SO AND SO WAS SUCH AND SUCH ALL ALONG, HA-HA!" as if they're being fucking slick.

Enough with the strawman arguments. Enough with the slippery slope. If you post unmarked spoilers, you're a douchebag. "Well, what's a spoiler?" is not a helpful discussion at this point. You know exactly what a spoiler is. The fact that you have to bring up "well, some people think the name of a weapon is a spoiler!" only serves to further prove my point, and distract from the core issue at hand here: Don't be a dick.

Use your goddamn brain, people. Quit asking what a spoiler is and simply think about what you say before you say it.

If you value the preservation of the hypothetical experience to be had in its "purest " form (whatever that might even be) is placing yourself in the room where people—who have already had the experience you're protecting for—are milling about and talking amongst themselves really the best move?

You're going on this crazy tangent, which is one of the problems I'm talking about.

Nobody here is asking people to police their shit in OTs or whatever.

Here is the context of the OP (emphasis added):

Heres the context of the OP.

Someone made a thread on r/PS4 asking if he/she should buy Horizon Zero Dawn. I stated that I was really enjoying the game and the story was pretty awesome.

Guy responds by saying 'the storyline is really really predictable. I mean, youve gotta be an idiot to not realize *spoiler*'

Like, come the fuck on dude. I didnt attack you. That shit wasnt warranted at all.


Also, I picked the game back up today after arriving home from work.

To be clear, it was a thread by someone who has not played the game. That is the context of that discussion. And some asshole shows up spoiling its plot in the comments, without warning. That is a problem. You don't fucking have to do it. At all.

Use your goddamn brain, and you'll be a lot less of an asshole to people. As a bonus, you can freely discuss as many spoilers as you want. You don't have to go word by word, meticulously redacting shit with laser precision. Simply give people who are probably not really trying to read spoilers just yet the opportunity to opt out of having their first experience irrevocably fucked with.

It's. Not. Hard.