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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.

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A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Valhelm said:
This is the stuff I don't like about liberal politics. Governments should exist to serve the people. If an industry is dying, we should guarantee jobs or pensions for the disenfranchised people, rather than leave them out on the cold.

Hillary had a much better plan for this than Trumb, but we can't expect every 50-year-old coal miner to become a programmer. Why are federal employment and industry-specific unemployment relief off the table? Even if such programs are expensive, they provide a moral and social good while also building Democratic support in blighted industrial communities.
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Those aren't off the table at all, but they're also opposed by these people. They don't want a job in an office working with people, and they don't want any retraining at all. It has to be a manufacturing job with inflated pay, full benefits, that they can get with a high school diploma, all with minimum commute.

I agree that essentially we have to not lie and still get power, then use that to beat them over the head with benefits that still push them to a modern economy.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
So... Kentucky. Medicaid.

https://thinkprogress.org/kentucky-gamify-medicaid-d86d1aed6760

Bevin’s plan is in fact a benefit cut. Kentucky’s Medicaid program currently includes vision and dental. If you’re eligible for Medicaid in Kentucky, then you’re eligible for coverage of regular tooth checkups and eye exams under state law.

Bevincare would “enhance” Medicaid benefits by taking several of them away. You will lose the security of knowing your eye doctor and dentist will see you when you need them, and gain the exciting new opportunity to earn chits toward the cost of those same services

But to accrue those chits, you must live by Bevin’s rules. MyRewards points accumulate based on the enrollee’s participation in job training, health screening, smoking cessation, volunteer, and educational programs, at the rates listed below:

CREDIT: Kentucky HEALTH Program Requirements Specification
Bevin’s behavioral incentives effectively convert his definition of good character into a state-enforced moral code which everyone who can’t afford health insurance must follow — and whose compliance the state must monitor.
Click to expand...

http://media.mcguirewoods.com/mwc/kentucky-medicaid-expansion-2.pdf
 
S

Sirpopopop

Member
Valhelm said:
This is the stuff I don't like about liberal politics. Governments should exist to serve the people. If an industry is dying, we should guarantee jobs or pensions for the disenfranchised people, rather than leave them out on the cold.

Hillary had a much better plan for this than Trumb, but we can't expect every 50-year-old coal miner to become a programmer. Why are federal employment and industry-specific unemployment relief off the table? Even if such programs are expensive, they provide a moral and social good while also building Democratic support in blighted industrial communities.
Click to expand...

Because those communities will look at it as just TAXES and NANNY STATE INTERFERENCE.

After all, the problem isn't the jobs disappearing, it's those filthy immigrants with their crime stealing the jobs! The jobs still exist!

Wilsongt said:
So... Kentucky. Medicaid.

https://thinkprogress.org/kentucky-gamify-medicaid-d86d1aed6760



http://media.mcguirewoods.com/mwc/kentucky-medicaid-expansion-2.pdf
Click to expand...

I could totally see that being popular in Kentucky as a "good measure devoted to cutting down FRAUD!"
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
BoogieWoogie said:
Audience reaction:

giphy.gif
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tumblr_inline_mxlh83Nrbn1qhhn8k.gif
 
C

Crocodile

Member
kirblar said:
I disagree that this is something specific to America. Having people working means you have a stable society.
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It's not exclusive to America but it seems to be a stronger sentiment here than in most other counties (Japan seems to be another outlier like us but given how different American and Japanese culture are, the underlying source is likely different). Compare the US to most European Nations with regards to vacation days or hours per week worked. There is a strong "if you aren't working all the time you might as well be dead" sentiment here. With specific regards to welfare programs, you could chalk it up to a large degree to racism making them harder to pass as legislation but that's not the entire picture.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Crocodile said:
It's not exclusive to America but it seems to be a stronger sentiment here than in most other counties (Japan seems to be another outlier like us but given how different American and Japanese culture are, the underlying source is likely different). Compare the US to most European Nations with regards to vacation days or hours per week worked. There is a strong "if you aren't working all the time you might as well be dead" sentiment here. With specific regards to welfare programs, you could chalk it up to a large degree to racism making them harder to pass as legislation but that's not the entire picture.
Click to expand...

"Americans live to work, Europeans work to live" is the most succinct way I've heard it described.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Emerson said:
There are going to be a lot of old industries dying over the next several decades. The government can't afford to provide full pensions to everyone.

Unemployment benefits should of course be offered, and maybe some other relief is appropriate. But people also need to take personal responsibility and find other work. There's no reason for a young coal miner to get a free salary for decades because he doesn't want to learn another job.
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Trump wants to increase the military budget by 54 billion. No way lifetime pensions for miners and industrial workers costs more than that.

I don't like the idea of forcing "personal responsibility" on people, especially those born into bleeding communities. That is a right-wing attitude that has no place in the democratic party.
 
D

dramatis

Member
From Risking His Life To Saving Lives, Ex-Coal Miner Is Happy To Take The Paycut
Growing up the son of a coal miner in southern West Virginia, David Wiley saw the downside of the profession up close. His father had been injured in the mines, lost several fingers and damaged his knees and back. "He was just really beat up," Wiley says.

So when it came to find his own line of work, Wiley says he had no desire to work in the coal mines. For a couple of years after high school, Wiley tried his hand at manufacturing and welding jobs in the neighboring state of North Carolina.

But when Wiley decided to return to West Virginia in his early 20s, the job opportunities were few and far between, and when he received a job offer to work in the mines for a starting wage of $22 an hour, the pay was too good to pass up.

"I was excited," says Wiley, "that's really good money for anybody. A young kid like me, I'd never made that kind of money."
Click to expand...
One day, he came across an online job posting for an ambulance driver with STAT Emergency Medical Services in Pineville, W.V. Though he'd never worked in the medical field, Wiley says he was desperate, and decided to apply.

He remembers speaking with the company's hiring manager on the telephone, "basically crying because my unemployment was getting ready to run out. I had two babies at the time. I couldn't figure out how I was going to feed them, and he gave me a shot."

I was a shock at first, he says, going from having made around $30 an hour to minimum wage work at $8.75. But he needed a way to help support his family, and the constant demand for healthcare in the area meant plenty of opportunities to work overtime.

"I've come in at 3:00 in the morning and not gotten off until 3:00 in the morning," Wiley says.

He says he knew within his first month that he'd made the right decision in picking his new line of work.
Click to expand...
Sort of related to discussion had earlier today in this thread.


timetokill said:
*Hmm, think I'll check PoliGAF to get their take on the latest political events*

"Paula Ryan is cute lol"

*backs away from thread slowly*
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Just be glad it didn't go full kawaii
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Sirpopopop said:
Because those communities will look at it as just TAXES and NANNY STATE INTERFERENCE.

After all, the problem isn't the jobs disappearing, it's those filthy immigrants with their crime stealing the jobs! The jobs still exist!
Click to expand...

I think conflating all red and purple state voters is myopic and dangerous. Manchin, one of the most conservative Democrats in our entire political system, readily endorsed single-payer health care. He wouldn't have broached the topic if government assistance is something that scares West Virginia voters.

Different communities have different needs. Appealing to the legitimate needs of certain communities is necessary to stop bigots from being elected in these places.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Valhelm said:
I think conflating all red and purple state voters is myopic and dangerous. Manchin, one of the most conservative Democrats in our entire political system, readily endorsed single-payer health care. He wouldn't have broached the topic if government assistance is something that scares West Virginia voters.

Different communities have different needs. Appealing to the legitimate needs of certain communities is necessary to stop bigots from being elected in these places.
Click to expand...
Why would you think supporting single-payer has anything to do with stopping bigotry? (see: Le Pen.)
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Were people panicking this badly about the draft during the Iraq war? Seems every time Trump thinks about firing a missile, the draft is seconds away from being used, even if that doesn't really make sense and is kind of logistically impossible.
 
P

Paches

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Were people panicking this badly about the draft during the Iraq war? Seems every time Trump thinks about firing a missile, the draft is seconds away from being used, even if that doesn't really make sense and is kind of logistically impossible.
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I was in high school when the tanks were rolling in to Iraq and I remember there was always tons of chatter about potential drafts.
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
balladofwindfishes said:
Were people panicking this badly about the draft during the Iraq war? Seems every time Trump thinks about firing a missile, the draft is seconds away from being used, even if that doesn't really make sense and is kind of logistically impossible.
Click to expand...

I remember draft panic very much being a thing in the run-up to Iraq.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
kirblar said:
Why would you think supporting single-payer has anything to do with stopping bigotry? (see: Le Pen.)
Click to expand...

I'm talking about US politics. Fascistic candidates in Europe have always been more receptive to social democracy because they come from a very different political tradition.

Even if some people in America who want single payer have bigoted views, the election of progressive Democrats in such places stops this bigotry from being expressed.

Sirpopopop suggested that coal miners would never support government assistance, but the apparent popularity of single payer suggests otherwise.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
What is even the point of the draft anymore?

- Wars aren't fought anymore by just throwing bodies at each other and the most bodies win. It's fought with technology, missiles, stuff like that.
- Can you imagine the draft with the Internet existing? Or the draft with the student loan crisis going on (how does that even work?)? Or the draft with how fat and lazy we all are? We'd have tutorials on how to most effectively dodge the draft being posted to YouTube. People would put on weight, Homer Simpson style, to avoid it.
- What happens when someone (likely near instantly) sues about women not being drafted and a judge shuts the whole thing down until the government can draft women (which is basically impossible short term)?
- Our army is freakin' huge and there's no real reason for forced enlistment.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
Valhelm said:
I'm talking about US politics. Fascistic candidates in Europe have always been more receptive to social democracy because they come from a very different political tradition.

Even if some people in America who want single payer have bigoted views, the election of progressive Democrats in such places stops this bigotry from being expressed.

Sirpopopop suggested that coal miners would never support government assistance, but the apparent popularity of single payer suggests otherwise.
Click to expand...

For the white working class especially, but for the working class in general, they just don't want government benefits to take the place of a job. It's just that poor minorities have a better grasp of the perils of joblessness than poor whites, who despite their poverty have benefitted from social stability that provided them with a meagre livelihood.

There's an argument to be made by the UBI people that expecting 75% of working-age people to have jobs in the future is a pipe-dream, but that's not where we are right now and it's certainly not the context a lot of voters operate in.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Ogodei said:
For the white working class especially, but for the working class in general, they just don't want government benefits to take the place of a job. It's just that poor minorities have a better grasp of the perils of joblessness than poor whites, who despite their poverty have benefitted from social stability that provided them with a meagre livelihood.

There's an argument to be made by the UBI people that expecting 75% of working-age people to have jobs in the future is a pipe-dream, but that's not where we are right now and it's certainly not the context a lot of voters operate in.
Click to expand...
Honestly I'm a UBI person and I do expect 75% of working age people to have jobs in the future. The problem is that even 25% unemployment is catastrophic
 
D

DonShula

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Were people panicking this badly about the draft during the Iraq war? Seems every time Trump thinks about firing a missile, the draft is seconds away from being used, even if that doesn't really make sense and is kind of logistically impossible.
Click to expand...

I graduated high school in '99. At that time, the National Guard was showing up to the cafeteria once a week, offering their free college and whatnot, quite openly saying stuff like "sign up, you'll never have to do anything, we haven't gone to war in forever." Then of course we went to war right after those poor saps signed up.

I can't imagine anyone but the most pro-military getting anywhere near enlisting with Trump in power.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Ogodei said:
For the white working class especially, but for the working class in general, they just don't want government benefits to take the place of a job. It's just that poor minorities have a better grasp of the perils of joblessness than poor whites, who despite their poverty have benefitted from social stability that provided them with a meagre livelihood.

There's an argument to be made by the UBI people that expecting 75% of working-age people to have jobs in the future is a pipe-dream, but that's not where we are right now and it's certainly not the context a lot of voters operate in.
Click to expand...

Do you have any evidence to back this up or is it just a gut feeling?

Personally, I don't think lifetime pensions are the best way to help people in failing industries -- direct government employment can better serve a lot of folks unable to migrate to other industries -- but if we don't offer these proactive solutions, we'll see a lot more unemployment in already depressed areas.

The economic and political implications of this would be disastrous.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
K

kirblar

Member
Valhelm said:
I'm talking about US politics. Fascistic candidates in Europe have always been more receptive to social democracy because they come from a very different political tradition.

Even if some people in America who want single payer have bigoted views, the election of progressive Democrats in such places stops this bigotry from being expressed.

Sirpopopop suggested that coal miners would never support government assistance, but the apparent popularity of single payer suggests otherwise.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. You just get slightly-less-racist Democrats.

If they go hard left on social issues, they just don't get elected. Period. This is the problem w/ places like WV.
 
S

Slizeezyc

Member
dramatis said:
From Risking His Life To Saving Lives, Ex-Coal Miner Is Happy To Take The Paycut


Sort of related to discussion had earlier today in this thread.
Click to expand...

As someone in and around healthcare field, I push this a lot to blue-collar workers. Obviously healthcare has its own pitfalls and such, but there's lots of avenues to careers you might find interesting, and most take two years of school or less depending on what you want to do. And generally speaking, those two years are way, way cheaper than getting a normal college education. Beyond being an electrician, plumber, etc. it seems like a good avenue for that type of worker.
 
EYEL1NER

EYEL1NER

Member
Wilsongt said:
Oh, honey. You're still surrounded by stupid, trust me. Don't doubt that area SC-5 represents. It was drawn like that for a reason.
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I know Sumter city was pretty blue. We have a large minority population. While the veteran/retiree runoff from the base skew older, I feel like most of them that I meet are people who were stationed overseas in various places or have foreign-born spouses or worked in diverse career fields and don't have a raging hate for 'the other.' It isn't much, but looking at the detailed results on after the election was called made me think back to early on Election Day when I was standing in line and made me think 'okay, I was wrong to assume that ALL of the people in line with me were terrible people who were voting Trump. It was actually slightly less than half.'
Blader said:
Any district the elects Mick Mulvaney is not a district we can really win. Unless there's an enormous contingent of Democrats in the area who have never voted before.
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I was just reading about the dem who held the seat for a few decades before Mick and while he does seem more conservative than a lot of other dems, he looks like he was a better choice than Mulvaney. It'd be great if the people who voted Mulvaney said "Well that was a fucking dumb decision" and went back to their old voting habits, but I don't have high hopes for it.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Slizeezyc said:
As someone in and around healthcare field, I push this a lot to blue-collar workers. Obviously healthcare has its own pitfalls and such, but there's lots of avenues to careers you might find interesting, and most take two years of school or less depending on what you want to do. And generally speaking, those two years are way, way cheaper than getting a normal college education. Beyond being an electrician, plumber, etc. it seems like a good avenue for that type of worker.
Click to expand...
A big problem with blue-collar (aka male) workers is that they don't want to do jobs with a heavy customer service element. Going into a mine for 8 hours is preferable to talking with a person.
 
P

platypotamus

Member
kirblar said:
A big problem with blue-collar (aka male) workers is that they don't want to do jobs with a heavy customer service element. Going into a mine for 8 hours is preferable to talking with a person.
Click to expand...

My job occasionally makes me talk to people, and I can confirm that i sometimes fantasize about brute force manual labor no talking kind of jobs

EDIT: Oops, sorry for doubling up
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
kirblar said:
A big problem with blue-collar (aka male) workers is that they don't want to do jobs with a heavy customer service element. Going into a mine for 8 hours is preferable to talking with a person.
Click to expand...

This doesn't really get discussed enough. Its not just "good jobs" (although good jobs help) but specific forms of labor
 
Z

Zolo

Member
I admit I'm not that familiar with how passing federal budgets are usually done, but with the deadline being the 28th, shouldn't there have been a proposal already shown to congress to start the negotiation process and to see what has to be cut or thrown in?
 
K

kirblar

Member
Zolo said:
I admit I'm not that familiar with how passing federal budgets are usually done, but with the deadline being the 28th, shouldn't there have been a proposal already shown to congress to start the negotiation process and to see what has to be cut or thrown in?
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Duh. This is why people think it'll shut down, they're that incompetent. An emergency funding measure (aka no changes) is what they'll have to end up doing.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Zolo said:
I admit I'm not that familiar with how passing federal budgets are usually done, but with the deadline being the 28th, shouldn't there have been a proposal already shown to congress to start the negotiation process and to see what has to be cut or thrown in?
Click to expand...

It should have been in committee and being debated upon weeks ago. This is just the GOP being shit.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
The Technomancer said:
This doesn't really get discussed enough. Its not just "good jobs" (although good jobs help) but specific forms of labor
Click to expand...

The other problem is that blue-collar workers don't want the jobs they claim they want in a lot of cases. You recall stories from employers at factories or mines who say they can't find the people they need: everyone either flunks a drug test, can't pass a basic math test, or simply doesn't want to do the same work their granddaddy did (with good reason, but it muddles the political conversation. Trump's trying to bring jobs back that people don't really want, crucially).
 
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