I am surprised Sony has not already dropped trophy support requirements if this is true. Unless they he some hard data that shows these games selling far better with trophies. With trophey support gone maybe we would not have to repurchase classics.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PS2 on PS4 - how can Sony save this
- Thread starter Jack The Nipper
- Start date
I am surprised Sony has not already dropped trophy support requirements if this is true. Unless they he some hard data that shows these games selling far better with trophies. With trophey support gone maybe we would not have to repurchase classics.
Or any reason why they would want to
At this point I think the PS4 is a free hit for this stuff. The generation is too far in for there to be sweeping changes to the way Sony has been handling backwards compatibility.
If it's generally acknowledged though that the PS4 is the start of Sony ending this bullshit, with PS4 games compatible on PS5, then I'd really like the PS5 to also feature disc based PS1 and 2 emulation from the off. The PS4 for all intents and purposes is a PS4 alone, but if the PS5 represents continuous forward momentum for Sony systems and their libraries then they should absolutely include PS1 and 2 in that as well. We'll give them a pass on PS3 as it's clear that's a dead rubber.
If it's generally acknowledged though that the PS4 is the start of Sony ending this bullshit, with PS4 games compatible on PS5, then I'd really like the PS5 to also feature disc based PS1 and 2 emulation from the off. The PS4 for all intents and purposes is a PS4 alone, but if the PS5 represents continuous forward momentum for Sony systems and their libraries then they should absolutely include PS1 and 2 in that as well. We'll give them a pass on PS3 as it's clear that's a dead rubber.
I think the problem is that there are remastered versions of many of these games on PS3/PSNow. If I was a company I'd want the latest, improved versions of games to be released, rather than an old emulated version. Don't forget in addition to these PS2 games we also have all the PS2 Final Fantasies and KH games.
Basically PS3 backwards compatability needs to be sorted. PS Now is not the solution.
Basically PS3 backwards compatability needs to be sorted. PS Now is not the solution.
Aaron Strife
Banned
PS1/PS2 disc-based b/c
Won't ever happen
Won't ever happen
Jack The Nipper
Banned
It's almost the only thing SNK does though, old games etc
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
I guess I'm in the minority but without trophy support I don't really have any interest in PS2 games on PS4.
The graphical improvements have been barely noticeable in almost everything I've played so I just don't see much value there for myself personally.
The graphical improvements have been barely noticeable in almost everything I've played so I just don't see much value there for myself personally.
semiconscious
Member
first post! junkiest reason ('now with trophies!') to get you to pay for a game you already own again ever!
...get2sammyb
Member
I think they have to have the Trophy support and all the other OS features personally. If you cut that out then there's very little point in bothering with this initiative anymore -- may as well just dig out the originals.
I think there just needs to be a steadier stream of them myself.
I think there just needs to be a steadier stream of them myself.
The ability to actually play them at all is a pretty good start, not everyone keeps antique hardware lying around the house
Kresnik258
Member
Tonnes of PS2 games had online. Black; Burnout 3; Champions of Norrath; Hardware; Syphon Filter Omega Strain; Timesplitters Future Perfect; Twisted Metal Black just off the top of my head. Not quite sure what he's on about.
Nope, the 4:3 ratio is slight stretched vertically so that when the image is cropped for widescreen, if fills up the whole screen. If there is any positive, the cropped widescreen does have the right AR.
OTOH, some games have had widescreen patched in. Recently tried playing Red Faction 1 and it looks great. Right now its the only way to play the game in true widescreen and the PC version also happens to lack most of the nice shaders and lighting effects.
As someone else has said, I really don't think it's that hard since the achievements can be basic stuff like get to x point in game or finish collecting y items which will need to be read as output from the game's logic rather than needing to be tracked.
Pandora012
Member
I'm thinking the trophy requirement might be the problem.
These games should NOT require trophies... that's too much effort to port them over... if they really want some for data tracking, include some like this that are handled on the system end / separate thread, rather than interlaced into the game code itself:
- Started Playing
- Played 1 hour
- Played 5 hours
- Played 10 hours
Make that a standard set that can be applied to any PS2 game without digging into original game code, have them handled on the system / account end.
Edit: I know it won't be accurate metrics if you can just let the game sit idle and collect all the trophies... but it's an alternate idea regardless.
- Started Playing
- Played 1 hour
- Played 5 hours
- Played 10 hours
Make that a standard set that can be applied to any PS2 game without digging into original game code, have them handled on the system / account end.
Edit: I know it won't be accurate metrics if you can just let the game sit idle and collect all the trophies... but it's an alternate idea regardless.
ethomaz
Banned
Some guys saying Trophies is the reason lol
If there are no trophies then there is no incentive to replay a old game... Trophies is a feature that makes you want to buy the PS4 version over the PS3... that is why I play HD Remasters even when I already beat the game dozen of times.
I'm playing again (maybe 5th time or more) FFVII because they added trophies to PS4 version (speed run of course).
If Sony remove the trophy requirement it will probably decrease even more the sales.
If there are no trophies then there is no incentive to replay a old game... Trophies is a feature that makes you want to buy the PS4 version over the PS3... that is why I play HD Remasters even when I already beat the game dozen of times.
I'm playing again (maybe 5th time or more) FFVII because they added trophies to PS4 version (speed run of course).
If Sony remove the trophy requirement it will probably decrease even more the sales.
I don't think it's possible for me to care less about trophies.
Give me my mediocre 3D Castlevania games and bad Mega Man X games, Sony. I'll buy them as soon as I see them on there.
Their drip-feeding of these games is honestly worse than Nintendo's eShop somehow--how do you mess this up?!
Give me my mediocre 3D Castlevania games and bad Mega Man X games, Sony. I'll buy them as soon as I see them on there.
Their drip-feeding of these games is honestly worse than Nintendo's eShop somehow--how do you mess this up?!
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
Oh I can definitely understand that and agree that making them playable at all as legacy titles is a good thing, but for myself I need more incentive to revisit aged software. I already have a backlog of current gen games that I would be putting on hold for PS2 stuff.
The trophy support to me basically instills a sense of measured accomplishment in the games that wasn't fully present in their original form. I'm given new goals and meta-esque tasks on top of the existing game systems and it gives me much more motivation to push through and either (for example) finish a really long game I've never completed or 100% games that I've beaten before but got too bored to continue on to find all items etc.
It sound as though you're saying that nobody replayed games prior to trophies existing or if they did then there was no point to it. The point to replaying games are that those games are fun independent of sometimes totally arbitrary achievements that were thrown in by a dev at the last minute. I'm not going to say "achievements ruined gaming" because they didn't, but if they were gone tomorrow I don't think most people would notice or care.
Pandora012
Member
I mean I replay old games all the time, and they don't have trophies. I imagine that there are are bunch of people that don't need trophies to play older games. The PS1 classics don't have them, and people still buy them. The reason I'd buy a Ps4 version over the Ps3 version is because I mainly play on my Ps4. Though I still go back and forth, since I started replaying the ME Trilogy, and I haven't finished my Nocturne run on it.
I bought a bunch of PS2 on PS4 games (also a few PS3 classics) and didn't even look at the trophies once. I really don't care for it.
I just like being able to play the games I love and used to play when I was younger.
We should at least be able to play the already existing ones for the PS3, that would be a good start.
I just like being able to play the games I love and used to play when I was younger.
We should at least be able to play the already existing ones for the PS3, that would be a good start.
It's dead Jim.
In 2 years Sony has released like what 30-40 PS2 games? And most of them are mediocre ones. Trophy support is probably what's killing it, not because it takes time and resources because it probably means they have to spend some time on it when they would rather do something else. The PS2 is 2 generation old now, they should be able to just brute force an emulator in if they want to.
Meanwhile, MS is consistently providing backward compatibility for a much more recent generation on a less powerful machine (compared to PS4 and Pro) with a LOT more releases. And the best part is they aren't even charging for it if you own the game (regardless of it being digital or physical) !!
In 2 years Sony has released like what 30-40 PS2 games? And most of them are mediocre ones. Trophy support is probably what's killing it, not because it takes time and resources because it probably means they have to spend some time on it when they would rather do something else. The PS2 is 2 generation old now, they should be able to just brute force an emulator in if they want to.
Meanwhile, MS is consistently providing backward compatibility for a much more recent generation on a less powerful machine (compared to PS4 and Pro) with a LOT more releases. And the best part is they aren't even charging for it if you own the game (regardless of it being digital or physical) !!
I think one of the reasons could be that many publishers probably want to keep their (ps2 era and beyond) 3d game backlog so they can use it for HD ports (and collections).
See Nintendo, for example, who made two GC ports for the WiiU and successfully sold them at high price.
Furthermore, I think publishers also want to keep their cards in their hands for when they make/announce sequels. It can make for good additional promotional material in both ways (announced sequel generates interest in predecessor, predecessor creates interest in upcoming sequel).
See Nintendo, for example, who made two GC ports for the WiiU and successfully sold them at high price.
Furthermore, I think publishers also want to keep their cards in their hands for when they make/announce sequels. It can make for good additional promotional material in both ways (announced sequel generates interest in predecessor, predecessor creates interest in upcoming sequel).
ethomaz
Banned
No.
I'm saying the number of gamers interested in replay games without trophies are inferior to the number combined of gamers that wants just replay plus wants to replay for trophies.
You have probably three pools of gamers.
1. Gamers that never played on PS2 (or PS3 classic).
2. Gamers that will replay no matter what (because they like the game).
3. Gamers that will replay only with trophies (because they already played and finished it 2+ times).
Make the game with trophies combines the 3 pools... that is a way bigger number of gamers to buy it over only the 2 first pools.
Why not give options to gamers instead remove features?
That is fine and I never said you are wrong... I said the number of gamers combined to buy a game with trophy support is way bigger than the number without trophy support.
I never bought a PS1 classic but I will buy most JRPGs for PS1 if it had trophy support on PS4... FFT, Grandia, SotN, etc are all DAY ONE at any price (I bought Wild Armrs 3 at full price on release)!!!
Why not give options to gamers instead remove features?
Pandora012
Member
The problem comes when publishers won't bother to jump the hoops to release the game. So you can have a plethora of games with no trophy support or a few games with the support.
Also, how is it removing a feature, if the feature never existed when the game was released?
Yep 100%. There's a sub group to 3 which is the people who would want to replay or play again, not just because of trophies, but trophies pushes them over the edge. There's lots of these people. If there's a perceived reward for replaying then more people will bite the bullet.
thatJohann
Member
The only way I would pay for a PS2 game in this day and age is if it has any graphical enhancements, same way Scorpio will be doing for older 360/XBO titles.
Meaning, I want PS2 on PS4 games to look better and run better than they do on PS2, then I would consider it. Otherwise, this is doomed. Gimme 16x AF, supersampling, ANYTHING to get me excited. Otherwise, why would I?
Meaning, I want PS2 on PS4 games to look better and run better than they do on PS2, then I would consider it. Otherwise, this is doomed. Gimme 16x AF, supersampling, ANYTHING to get me excited. Otherwise, why would I?
It is bad.
Since June 2015, MS has released over 320 Xbox 360 games (a more recent console than PS2) for Xbox One (a less powerful console than PS4/Pro). That's 14 games or so per month.
If there were publisher issues MS would have faced them as well. And in all likelihood they do face them, but at the end of the day the PS2 library has thousands of games. Even if 90% of the publishers had issues you'd still end up with more than 40 games.
ethomaz
Banned
There are any place confirming Publishers works on the PS2 to PS4 releases? From what I know it is a team at Sony that add the trophies, do the changes to fit PS4 and quality assurance the game for release.
Publishers only deal with the negotiations with Sony to release the games.
I believe the biggest issues right now are: Sony team is small and Sony are having a hard time with deals with Publishers... these two points makes the release slow.
I read a lot on GAF about games not getting on BC due publishers issues... even from the same Publisher you don't get all games.
Moon Presence
Member
No, they don't. The catalog is beyond embarrassing.
thelastword
Banned
It's so silly too, because Sony had a patent ages ago that makes implementing trophies into PS1/PS2 games a breeze....
How anybody could suggest that it's the trophies fault is so out of left field....As a matter of fact, no game can be released now without trophies since it's debut on PS3...If anything, licensing ..may be more of an issue for these older games, hence why you've seen more Sony published games making the cut instead.
However, I'm sure if Sony pushes further they can get more releases from third parties on the PSN.
ASilentProtagonist
Member
I'd be satisfied for a while if we got SMT games like Nocturne, and DDS1/2 remastered.
It's not like for like. 360 games are up to the modern standards in terms of 1080p, achievements etc. Also its a direct emulator so its easy to get things working.
The PS2 Classics are upscaled and with trophy support. So you may say, why not just emulate straight? Because they look awful on HDTVs. One game bought will put people off buying any more.
It's slow, but 2.5 a month is better than I'd assumed it was. Plus we do have Jak and Daxter and Star Ocean 3 coming soon. That was a nice surprise. Plus Star Ocean uses an Ultimate Hits HD branding, which makes it sound like the first of a few, so Square Enix support looks promising.
I'd be satisfied for a while if we got SMT games like Nocturne, and DDS1/2 remastered.
This is what I want. I missed this game back on ps2 and the ps3 classic. I really hope we hear good news about ps2 on ps4 at e3.
They really should just make ps3 ps2 classics playable on ps4 and add trophy support as dlc.
If I ever said the game shouldn't come out due to trophies then there was an argument. Fact is everyone is just being a bit selfish here with their own "drop the trophies" title when they can deliver on every front. For example PS3 has half of them Remastered. If people didn't buy them then, what makes Sony believe they will buy them now?
Trophies are probably also the last thing on their list of things to do.
I see some folks in here demanding that PS2 games that originally had online features should be brought back with those features.
Do you understand what you're asking? If I developed and released a game over 15 years ago, on a now-discontinued platform, I would balk at the prospect of digging out the old servers (if they even still exist) and forking out some amount of money/time/resources to fully support online play for a just small fraction of the users that I had the first time around. Recall that PS2 online play didn't have any kind of infrastructure like we have today; each dev had to implement all of the features on their own...their own servers, their own hosting, etc.
Regardless of how poorly Sony may be handling their back catalog, please understand that this is an unreasonable request.
Do you understand what you're asking? If I developed and released a game over 15 years ago, on a now-discontinued platform, I would balk at the prospect of digging out the old servers (if they even still exist) and forking out some amount of money/time/resources to fully support online play for a just small fraction of the users that I had the first time around. Recall that PS2 online play didn't have any kind of infrastructure like we have today; each dev had to implement all of the features on their own...their own servers, their own hosting, etc.
Regardless of how poorly Sony may be handling their back catalog, please understand that this is an unreasonable request.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Here is the full list
Harvest Moon
Fatal Fury Battle Archives
ADK Damashii
Fu'un Super Combo
Red Faction
Destroy All Humans
DAH 2
Samurai SHodown VI
Red Dead Revolver
Hot Shots Tennis
Indigo Prophecy
Ape Escape 2
Metal Slug Anthology
The Warriors
Siren
Psychonauts
Primal
Rogue Galaxy
Kinetica
Wild Arms 3
The King of Fighters
Max Payne
Bully
Manhunt
Okage
Rise of the Kasai
Puzzle Quest
Dark Cloud
DC2
SW Bounty Hunter
SW Jedi Sfighter
SW RRevenge
Arc the Lad
GTA triology
FantaVision
Parappa the Rapper 2
Mark of Kri
TMBlack
War of the Monsters
While it's good to get a few fun to good gems here in this list (War of the Monsters, FantaVison) the lack of big titles is really .. really big. I am not sure what they are doing or not doing and it's interesting to see a lack of HD games that made it on PS3 (even games like Medal of Honor that people may not even realize had HD ports on PS3
Strong sense of games missing from most publishers (EA, Ubisoft, Konami, Sqaure (although many of their titles are getting full remakes anyways)
But the glaring omissions are def things like
God of War
Burnout
MGS
ICO/SOTC
SSX
Prince of Persia
Sly Cooper
SIlent Hill
To be honest a lot of what they have now I never had played or owned, at least 60 percent of it.
Harvest Moon
Fatal Fury Battle Archives
ADK Damashii
Fu'un Super Combo
Red Faction
Destroy All Humans
DAH 2
Samurai SHodown VI
Red Dead Revolver
Hot Shots Tennis
Indigo Prophecy
Ape Escape 2
Metal Slug Anthology
The Warriors
Siren
Psychonauts
Primal
Rogue Galaxy
Kinetica
Wild Arms 3
The King of Fighters
Max Payne
Bully
Manhunt
Okage
Rise of the Kasai
Puzzle Quest
Dark Cloud
DC2
SW Bounty Hunter
SW Jedi Sfighter
SW RRevenge
Arc the Lad
GTA triology
FantaVision
Parappa the Rapper 2
Mark of Kri
TMBlack
War of the Monsters
While it's good to get a few fun to good gems here in this list (War of the Monsters, FantaVison) the lack of big titles is really .. really big. I am not sure what they are doing or not doing and it's interesting to see a lack of HD games that made it on PS3 (even games like Medal of Honor that people may not even realize had HD ports on PS3
Strong sense of games missing from most publishers (EA, Ubisoft, Konami, Sqaure (although many of their titles are getting full remakes anyways)
But the glaring omissions are def things like
God of War
Burnout
MGS
ICO/SOTC
SSX
Prince of Persia
Sly Cooper
SIlent Hill
To be honest a lot of what they have now I never had played or owned, at least 60 percent of it.
It is not the same....besides I would rather revisit older games for the nostalgia and/or see what I missed optimized for today's standards than revisit games from previous gen which aren't that old to begin with.
I really really doubt trophies are the reason for the hold-up... seems like a scapegoat.
P2 Classics on PS2 was also slow as hell, and so was VC on the Wii and 3DS.
Switch has no BC and VC is up in the air.
Everyone in the Console space excluding Microsoft seems to be fumbling with BC and VC.
Regardless of the reason, Sony definetly needs to try war harder.
Charging for PS2 ROMs a second time is incredibly scummy - even if I love trophies.
P2 Classics on PS2 was also slow as hell, and so was VC on the Wii and 3DS.
Switch has no BC and VC is up in the air.
Everyone in the Console space excluding Microsoft seems to be fumbling with BC and VC.
Regardless of the reason, Sony definetly needs to try war harder.
Charging for PS2 ROMs a second time is incredibly scummy - even if I love trophies.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Trophy support is neat, but apparently requires a lot of work to implement. They should really just ditch that and get more games out. The incredibly slow trickle of games hasn't helped at all.
This is the fucking problem:
First and foremost Sony needs to bring forward the PS1 and PS2 classics that are on PS3, if not also bring back PS1 disc compatibility.
Sony's mentality changed completely going into PS4 when it came to its back catalog. Before Sony had a contiguous library of PS1 games that carried between PS3, PSP, and Vita. It sold PS2 games digitally because the PS3 couldn't emulate PS2 perfectly enough to allow for disc compatibility, but modders found out the PS3 really does contain a complete PS2 emulator. Fuck, Sony has still been releasing some of those PS1 and PS2 classics for PS3 this year. I've bought quite a few PS1 games on PS3 I still want to play. What I liked in particular is that Sony seemed to target classics that were expensive as fuck at retail. The Japanese selection is on a whole other level.
But if you look at the store now it even separates "Classics" and "PS2 games" into different sections. If you look at the posts on the PlayStation blog the Classics seemed to be about actually bringing back classic games. Again, there was a particular focus on bringing back hard-to-find games. With PS2 on PS4 it seems more about just reselling games with the excuses being 1080p and trophies.
Maybe Sony is just trying to bring back its classics a different way now. Along side PS2-on-PS4 we're seeing Sony invest more in total remakes of PS1 and PS2 games like Crash and Parappa. Now that Sony's in a position of strength with the PS4 it seems content to simply dip into its back catalog occasionally for more revenue. But that method is never gonna capture a plurality of the PS1 and PS2 libraries which some two of the most massive and valuable in console games. The only real way to make all that accessible is full-blown emulation for all games.
Of course Microsoft primarily cares about its BC initiative because it's trying to get more people onto its planned future for the Xbox platform. At least MS is creating something that feels more hardware agnostic and is supposed to give each game more permanence and shelf life.
Totally agree with all of the above. Sony has blown it so hard on this.
Supremely disappointed with the PS2 on PS4 line. Especially in some cases where the are actual rereleases/remasters on recent consoles that won't see the light of day because they'd make the PS2 version redundant (looking at you Bully). Too expensive, not enough titles, not being leveraged like the XB1/360 backwards compatible titles have been. I really wish they had offered full digital PS2 compatibility with no enhancements, and offered a reduced price upgrade fee if you already owned a PS2 classic version. At this point, I think they are too far to fix it.
Also killed any hope I had of PS1 compatibility either happening or happening in a way I'd appreciate. Going to suck when my Vita/PS3 die and all my PS1 digital titles are useless.
Also killed any hope I had of PS1 compatibility either happening or happening in a way I'd appreciate. Going to suck when my Vita/PS3 die and all my PS1 digital titles are useless.