Support NeoGAF

[SSM25]

I know it sounds crazy, but what about if Sony, instead of using existing architecture that's already out there, worked hard to make a "Super Cell" (no DBZ references please)? Full BC with PS3 and all of it's digital offerings (large amount of retro archive games down the drain now too) plus a high end, cutting edge console. Then we get to the idea that it would be hard to develop for like PS3. Well, that's why it's the Super Cell. It would use custom tailored, just as PS2 and PS3 architecture/chips were, to be as easy to develop for as x86. Why should we say Cell is bound to what it was in 2006?

Maybe start fresh and make PS5 6 7 100% compatible with PS4 without effort while giving developers a user friendly architecture etc etc

This might be a new beggining intead of dragging old problems on and on

 

[Drencrom]

I know it sounds crazy, but what about if Sony, instead of using existing architecture that's already out there, worked hard to make a "Super Cell" (no DBZ references please)? Full BC with PS3 and all of it's digital offerings (large amount of retro archive games down the drain now too) plus a high end, cutting edge console. Then we get to the idea that it would be hard to develop for like PS3. Well, that's why it's the Super Cell. It would use custom tailored, just as PS2 and PS3 architecture/chips were, to be as easy to develop for as x86. Why should we say Cell is bound to what it was in 2006?

Yes, they don't exist. But over the years I could imagine Sony could have made some kind of Cell hybrid or just next-gen Cell re-done/x86-esque work.

You mean that Sony should put all their resources into making a processor architecture that's both compatible with the Cell and as accessible as x86, with the sole purpose of console BC?

lol

 

[SoulClap]

I wonder if Kutaragi is reading the reactions to the PS4 architecture and feels like complete shit or just bitter in general.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

You should have just put Mark Cerny in the title. PS4 architect doesn't roll off the tongue especially when we have a specific person who is talking here.

 

[stryke]

Yes, they don't exist. But over the years I could imagine Sony could have made some kind of Cell hybrid or just next-gen Cell re-done/x86-esque work.

Then use that imagination and think how much that kind of endeavour would cost.

 

[Oppo]

Shouldn't it be Krazy Ken to Censible Cerny?

Yes it definitely should, well done.

 

[genjiZERO]

Sony's J. Allard?

What happened to Allard?

Edit_

He retired...

He did the Dew one too many times, and died while attempting to do an ollie flip over a volcano.

I wonder if Kutaragi is reading the reactions to the PS4 architecture and feels like complete shit or just bitter in general.

So talking to a CS friend of mine the reason older programmers like Kutaragi prefer complicated development formats is because when they came up they all learned to program by way of line coding. Then object coding became the standard and it required a more open and straightforward format. So basically, architectural design is reinforced by the way people think about coding, and Kutaragi is a member of the old guard in that regard. So I don't know if he feels like a "shit", but he probably feels old.

 

[Tobor]

Maybe start fresh and make PS5 6 7 100% compatible with PS4 without effort while giving developers a user friendly architecture etc etc

This might be a new beggining intead of dragging old problems on and on

Exactly. Bite the bullet now and the future roadmap is secure. It was the only logical solution.

 

[jetsetfluken]

Then use that imagination and think how much that kind of endeavour would cost.

I already stated there doesn't have to be just one SKU. This is a much more complicated situation than simply not being able to play old PS1/PS2 games like with PS3. This is a massive library of mostly digital-only content (ie: this content is not on a disc) and discs, tied to old hardware only? The tides are different and a need for a Cell/x86 hybrid is important: whether that's standard or just a limited premium SKU is up in the air. What you and others are getting at is that I meant it had to be standard...yes, that would be extremely expensive and a loss for Sony. But a limited premium SKU (which would be x86+Cell, standard SKU x86 only) that's phased out over time akin to 2006 PS3 60GB? I see it as possible, whether it's happening or not.

And if not, like I mentioned above, a "super premium" PS4 SKU that includes both x86 and Cell for full BC. There's no reason a SKU like that shouldn't exist. Maybe it will, we'll have to wait until E3 to know... There will be a large outcry later on when it's discovered the massive digital libraries will be scrapped, and those who are outraged should at least have an option; just as PS3 had multiple SKUs at launch.

 

[noobasuar]

Too bad mistakes made 8 years ago have to follow them into the next generation.

But that's just the way of the industry. You gotta have some great foresight to survive.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

I dunno where Sonys gone, but this doppelgänger is doing pretty good.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Has there been any negative news on the PS4?

I think the Painkiller devs said it was meh.

 

[Raticus79]

Oh, cool, 8 real CPU cores. I missed that the first time since my brain was zoomed in on the memory.

 

[Drencrom]

But for fun, let's just say they didn't do that, they did what you brought up. An expensive x86 console with Cell hardware included. Really, how much more would that be running? They could easily do a "premium" SKU that has full BC (Cell, PS4+PS3) for even $200 USD more than the standard SKU (x86, PS4 software only).

Well, manufacturing and R&D costs aside. I don't think a humongous x86+Cell PS4 that most likely costs over 600 dollars would be a big seller.

 

[macewank]

But a limited premium SKU (which would be x86+Cell, standard SKU x86 only) that's phased out over time akin to 2006 PS3 60GB? I see it as possible, whether it's happening or not.

how much are you going to pay for that SKU? $600? $700?

It's not happening. That price point killed Sony last gen, and it's pretty obvious they're not interested in going down that path again.

 

[jetsetfluken]

Well, manufacturing and R&D costs aside. I don't think a humongous x86+Cell PS4 that most likely costs over 600 dollars would be a big seller.

The 60GB PS3 (not the lower end 20GB/software BC SKU) was in very high demand at launch and sold out for awhile (before anyone twists my words and says they weren't selling, that was a few months post-launch) and the more enthusiast crowd was all over it. Now enter this generation, the longest wait ever for a new generation, mixed with the introduction to user devotion to huge digital libraries (and the trational disc) and electronics industry shift to seeing "convenience/luxury devices" like iPads that do nothing other household device can't, that sell for $8465636 without anyone complaining...I think a "super premium" PS4 SKU that does everything, PS3+PS4 Cell+x86 for $599 or $699 is not farfetched. Like the 2006 60GB PS3, this would be a limited SKU, phased out to curb costs; the enthusiast crowd would have what they need. For the aimed mass sales and general public and "realistic" SKU (and just great for people outraged in this thread outraged about my "farfetched" posts), we would have the cheaper, standard x86-only PS4.

 

[FLEABttn]

I'm also sure that majority of people don't give a jackshit about CD playback. Seriously, this day of age?

I'm bummed it won't be in the PS4 but I also realize I'm a minority.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

And difficult as hell to program for.

The one dev friendly console he designed was the original PSX.

The PS2 and PS3 just added more and more complexity with exotic architectures that took years to fully master. Even then only the Japanese truly got the hang out of maximizing the PS2, Western devs only caught up with the PS3 and HD development when it came to making games with incredible graphical fidelity.

This is Sony basically going back to its own console roots. All the ingredients that made the PS1 such a hit with devs and publishers are seemingly present in the run up to the launch of the PS4.

I only see lazy western developers complaining about the PS3 hardware. I don't ever remember any japanese developers saying the PS3 was difficult to code.

Didn't Sony have to create the ICE team to get better performance from the ps3?

Are they still going to be needed since the PS4 is so easy to make games on?

 

[Tobor]

I'm bummed it won't be in the PS4 but I also realize I'm a minority.

You don't have access to a CD player?

 

[Sapiens]

It's like 1994 all over again when everyone was happy with the easy to work with PS1!

I'm very excited.

I only see lazy western developers complaining about the PS3 hardware. I don't ever remember any japanese developers saying the PS3 was difficult to code.



Are they still going to be needed since the PS4 is so easy to make games on?

I always hate the "Lazy Western Programmer" complaint.

As a creative type, I'm always dismayed by the trials of setting up an environment. Get me in there, let me use my knoweldge. I'm not an engineer, I don't want to deal with creating subroutines that handle machine instructions. And judging from what I've read about the PS2 and PS3 (the PS2, for some devs, taking a week to get a triangle to draw on the screen), I would have probably gone crazy and stuck with iOS games.

 

[FLEABttn]

You don't have access to a CD player?

My PS3 is the only CD player in my house that's not part of a computer. My plan was to shift my PS3 upstairs when I got a PS4 because I don't really have anymore room under my TV.

 

[sappyday]

Cerny better be there in E3 unveiling the black box

As much as I love Cerny right now, Kaz has to unveil it.

 

[jetsetfluken]

You don't have access to a CD player?

That's not entirely the point. The loss of audio CD reading/playback means no more ripping CD to console HDD, music you can then play in the background of games or even just in the dashboard. Now there's more work of ripping to your PC, transferring files, etc.

For highest audio quality and compatibility, CD ripping was key. Now users have to rely on whatever PC ripping method, many of which not going through very good programs and/or compression settings and such, leading to worse quality product files.

 

[Tobor]

That's not entirely the point. The loss of audio CD reading/playback means no more ripping CD to console HDD, music you can then play in the background of games or even just in the dashboard. Now there's more work of ripping to your PC, transferring files, etc.

People actually do this? Why? Just stream the music from your computer. What you describe is like trying to scratch your ass with your elbow.

How many people in the market for a gaming console are even buying CD's anymore?

Apple took the optical drives out of their computers entirely, and it was a non-event. Removing just CD playback is even less of an issue.

 

[jetsetfluken]

People actually do this? Why? Just stream the music from your computer. What you describe is like trying to scratch your ass with your elbow.

Not everyone wants to deal lower quality of streaming. Sure it's "convenient", but I'd rather have the console playing the source files raw.
And the method you bring up, streaming media to PS3, isn't that done via an unofficial method? If so, who is to assume PS4 will have that ability?

 

[stryke]

Not everyone wants to deal lower quality of streaming. Sure it's "convenient", but I'd rather have the console playing the source files raw.
And the method you bring up, streaming media to PS3, isn't that done via an unofficial method? If so, who is to assume PS4 will have that ability?

How can DLNA support be "unofficial"?

 

[thuway]

That's not entirely the point. The loss of audio CD reading/playback means no more ripping CD to console HDD, music you can then play in the background of games or even just in the dashboard. Now there's more work of ripping to your PC, transferring files, etc.

For highest audio quality and compatibility, CD ripping was key. Now users have to rely on whatever PC ripping method, many of which not going through very good programs and/or compression settings and such, leading to worse quality product files.

This post right here is evidence people will find reasons to complain about any and every thing. I've ripped my entire library in super high bit rate MP3, and on my Sennheiser HD800s and my Onix Rocket MK2's, the sound quality difference is minimal at best.

 

[Gaspode_T]

If you understand how large corporations work whoever had the authority to give Cerny the position and freedom in the face of a Japanese branch that probably is grumbling all the way...is a pretty ballsy move and deserves as much credit as Cerny is getting...maybe it is Hirai? He took over power just around the right time for it to connect.

 

[patsu]

Not everyone wants to deal lower quality of streaming. Sure it's "convenient", but I'd rather have the console playing the source files raw.
And the method you bring up, streaming media to PS3, isn't that done via an unofficial method? If so, who is to assume PS4 will have that ability?

I think PS3 can play iTunes playlist.

There is also DLNA for your own collection, and free version of Music Unlimited, VidZone.

 

[Alx]

I only see lazy western developers complaining about the PS3 hardware. I don't ever remember any japanese developers saying the PS3 was difficult to code.

They may not be complaining, but Japanese developers didn't really shine on this generation, either by the quality of their production or their ability to meet deadlines. They're probably the first victims of the PS3 complexity.

 

[IrishNinja]

You don't have access to a CD player?

those can play PS1 games now?

 

[BradleyLove]

That's not entirely the point. The loss of audio CD reading/playback means no more ripping CD to console HDD, music you can then play in the background of games or even just in the dashboard. Now there's more work of ripping to your PC, transferring files, etc.

For highest audio quality and compatibility, CD ripping was key. Now users have to rely on whatever PC ripping method, many of which not going through very good programs and/or compression settings and such, leading to worse quality product files.

How does loss of audio CD playback equate to loss of CD ripping?

 

[artist]

MS needs a Cerny of their own.

 

[Tobor]

those can play PS1 games now?

Supposedly that works, it's just music playback.

 

[Ninja Moomin]

Thread title is a bit odd... it was no secret there were issues with early PS3 tech and tools.

 

[IrishNinja]

Supposedly that works, it's just music playback.

it'd be happy to verify that for sure at some point, at least one prior gen would've made the cut so far.

 

[Tobor]

it'd be happy to verify that for sure at some point, at least one prior gen would've made the cut so far.

Personally, I think they should go ahead and cut off the PS1 discs if it's necessary. It's an almost 20 year old console, after all. Assuming that, like the Vita, PSN purchased PS1 games will work, it would only be a problem for a handful of users.

 

[Macattk15]

Yes.

No Backwards Compatibility. Changed my purchase from 'definite' to a 'might get it in a year or few depending on what it offers'.

Then there's also that thing about supposedly not allowing the playing of CDs. Not sure if that was ever cleared up, but it seemed terribly strange to leave out.

I have a launch 60GB BC PS3. You know how many times I have utilized the backwords compatibility of the console?

Zero times.

Sure I'm just one person, but is that really enough to turn people away from a true next generation console? I mean to go from "definite' to 'MIGHT get in a year' all based on BC? Really?

Do you not own a PS3? That is the only legit reason I can see the PS4 not having BC as being a problem. If so, I'm sure when PS4 launches you'll be able to get cheaper PS3s for exclusives you have missed and would like to try .... but why not buy one now and support the companies ... ?

 

[i-Lo]

Require confirmation: Will PS4 support custom soundtrack akin to 360, i.e. independent of the game being played?

 

[stryke]

Require confirmation: Will PS4 support custom soundtrack akin to 360, i.e. independent of the game being played?

Nothing official but its possible on Vita. Hopefully that sets a precedent.

 

[Gaspode_T]

MS needs a Cerny of their own.

Say hello to Boyd Multerer...creator of Xbox Live, XNA, now head of Xbox team...
http://www.boydm.net/new-job-today-am-now-director-of-development

People don't realize how ahead of its time Xbox Live was at the time - PSN still has some pretty wonky things compared to it. There was some sort of internal award for Xbox Live team that is so prestigious the other people who have received the award are all basically confirmed to be millionaires and set for life.

He tweeted the other week "@MommysBestGames Great article on XNA. Thank you. Enjoyed it very much." and "#becauseofxna I laughed & cried. Learned many lessons. Became intensely proud of many people. Am still committed to big things." https://twitter.com/BoydMulterer I think having the dude who created XNA at the head of Xbox org should hopefully insert some hope into indies........my fingers are crossed myself

 

[Sapiens]

I have a launch 60GB BC PS3. You know how many times I have utilized the backwords compatibility of the console?

Zero times.

For you! But I have no other way to play Outrun2!

 

[Lupin the Third]

How does loss of audio CD playback equate to loss of CD ripping?

The disc drive does not read CDs. It only plays DVD and Blu-ray Disc. Good luck getting that drive to rip CDs if they don't change it or it wasn't in error.

 

[QaaQer]

I find it amazing that the same guy responsible for this...

seeing those graphics compared to the Pacman and Galaxian cabinets all around it, blew me away as a kid.

and is now coming back 28yrs later to blow me away with the PS4.

Hey me too!. did you see the GDC Marble Madness postmortem with Cerny? Really brought back some memories of my all time favorite arcade game.

 

[RyL]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...Cerny_On_The_Death_Of_The_50_Million_Game.php

Mark Cerny seems to be really level-headed and forward thinking. I like him.

 

[0xCA2]

So talking to a CS friend of mine the reason older programmers like Kutaragi prefer complicated development formats is because when they came up they all learned to program by way of line coding. Then object coding became the standard and it required a more open and straightforward format. So basically, architectural design is reinforced by the way people think about coding, and Kutaragi is a member of the old guard in that regard. So I don't know if he feels like a "shit", but he probably feels old.

Whats "line coding"? Is that a term for procedural programming?

 

[Syphon Filter]

How come ps2 was fine with the difficult architecture?

 

[Red Chocobo]

These "Issues" gave us Uncharted 2. So I'm hoping the PS4 has the same issues lol

 

[gofreak]

How come ps2 was fine with the difficult architecture?

The industry was a captive audience for PS2, Sony was in control, had a lot less competition, and the development demographics (for want of a better term) were a lot less varied than they are today. Sony could afford to trade against programmer comfort.

 

[Corto]

Yes.

No Backwards Compatibility. Changed my purchase from 'definite' to a 'might get it in a year or few depending on what it offers'.

Then there's also that thing about supposedly not allowing the playing of CDs. Not sure if that was ever cleared up, but it seemed terribly strange to leave out.

Music CDs are going the way of the dodo. They don't even have the advantage of Vinyl discs "analogue" warmth to keep them relevant with audiophiles.