playsaves3
Member
If these leaks are true then no. However I don’t believe these leaks
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PS5 Pro devkits arrive at third-party studios, Sony expects Pro specs to leak
- Thread starter Bernoulli
- Start date
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
The PS5 Pro isn't Zen 5
I know, I meant to quote playsaves post messed, it up I guess, zen4c is the best-case scenario and the obvious choice but it's most probably going to be the safest and laziest option which is zen2.
Also how do we delete a post?
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Zen5 hasnt even been released yet..how would they incorporate it into the design of a console meant to have its final specs locked in at least a year from launch..
Little Chicken
Member
Does this thing even exist? Wierd that there have been no concrete leaks given that its supposed to release this year, not even any trace of it in the massive Insomniac leak.
Honestly zen 2 is fine especially if they give it a boost in clock and some more cache. Both my lads are using zen 2 in their pcs and they both manage very high frame rates in most games. I really don't think it will be an issue. I am still on zen 3 5900x and get great FPS in everything I play. Will upgrade next year to zen 5 but really no issues at the moment.
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JimRyanGOAT
Member
Im really hoping two Pro Models
PS5 Pro
PS5 Pro Max/Ultra
Like Iphones these days. I want the Pro Max to go all in on, especially on AI
PS5 Pro
PS5 Pro Max/Ultra
Like Iphones these days. I want the Pro Max to go all in on, especially on AI
NeonGhost
uses 'M$' - What year is it? Not 2002.
Not happening
Mr.Phoenix
Member
It can yield 2x the performance, though not in the way most may think. If you are looking at just the GPU TF numbers, then you will be disappointed, but taking the whole system together in its entirety should yield an over 2x improvement over the current PS5.
As an aside, take the xx80 series of GPUs, 4080 (24TF), 3080 (15TF) and 2080 (10TF). These 2x+ jumps people are expecting is just unrealistic if looking at just the raw TF numbers of any one component. As the Nvidia cards listed show, it took getting to the 4080 to see TF numbers indicative of a 2x+ jump over the 2080. And there is a whopping 4 years between those cards. But if you look at the architectural improvements and things like there being more RAM and bandwidth, then you get real-world performance higher than just the TF number suggests.
The same would be the case with the PS5pro. 50-70% GPU TF improvement here, 30% more bandwidth there, 30% faster CPU here, 100% more cache there, 150% better RT performance here....etc. All those things add up.
I will say yes. I believe the PS5pro is being designed to take anything the base PS5 can do at 30fps, and then do that same thing at 60fps. So on the PS5, in the most well-supported games, we should see three modes, Quality at 30fps that is better than anything the current PS5 can do. Performance at 60fps that is visually identical to the current PS5 running at 30fps. And ultra-performance that will be taking the current PS5s performance mode and running that at as high a framerate the console would allow.
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Codeblew
Member
Why not both?
Rocco Schiavone
Member
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
That's not hyperbole dude. Switch games truly look terrible on a 4k screen if you care even a little about image quality. Those same games look fine on a 1080p TV but not stretched on a 4k TV, with no anti aliasing and blurry low res textures.
Even a lot of ps4/Xbox one games look terrible on a 4k TV if they havn't been upscaled to something higher than 720p-1080p.
Come on man this isn't a matter of people being nitpicky as you seem to think.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Nintendo Switch games are made with low quality assets (low quality textures and models). A game like this will look even worse in 4K, as the higher resolution not only allows you to see more detail, but also exposes more imperfections (low poly character models for example).
-Low poly character models in the distance are much more noticeable at 4K.
-LOD transitions in the distance is also much more noticeable.
-Textures will also look less sharp when stretched to much higher resolutions.
I can emulate Nintendo Switch games on PC at 4K, but the textures look streatched, and LOD transitions are very distracting because 4K allows you to see everything clearly when objects are rendered far away amd that's when developers like to switch to extremely simple LOD, for example car model at the distance can look like a simple roctangle just with textures. IMO 720p-1080p (docked mode) is more than enough for "Switch" games.
Lower resolution image can look absolutely amazing on a 4K TV when properly upscaled, but unfortunately most people just let their TV do the upscaling part, so the image quality looks terrible compared to the native image. TV will either blurry pixels (bilinear filtering) resulting in a very blurry image, or you will get very sharp but extremely pixelated image (nearest neighbour upscaling). Both methods look like crap because standard upscaling makes pixels look like big squares, and that's not how pixels look on a native resolution display to our eyes. When the sub-pixels start to glow, our eyes perceive the shape of that glow as round, and the pixels blend together perfectly, which isn't the case when your eyes see □ square-shaped pixels.
Emulating a subpixel mask within upscaled / enlarged pixels is the only way to solve this problem. Unfortunately 4K is not enough to perfectly emulate a 720p resolution display, so you do lose effective resolution, but I think nintendo switch games still look a lot better with subpixel mask emulation (compared to standard upscaling to 4K). Even if there is a loss of resolution, at least the image will not be blurry/pixellated.
I have had a 4K TV since 2017 and even 1080p games on this TV looked like crap to me. The image was either too soft or too pixellated and I never liked that look. When I however started using subpixel masks on top of integer upscaling I have realized that I can game even at extremely low resolutions like 480i/p (PS2 games) and still perceive such low resolution as something good looking on my 55'inch 4K TV, because my mind started improving that low resolution image. Our imagination is extremely powerful. Take this picture, for example. It's made up of very few pills (resolution of 25x30 "pixels"), but our minds can still guess who the person in the picture is.
People who played old games (for example PSX games in the 90s) often say they always thought those games looked more realistic compared to what they can see now when they emulate the same games at 4K. The reason for this is that they were playing at low resolutions with no upscaling, so their imagination was actively working trying to interpret how missing details should look like.. That's why people were so impresseved even with PSX graphics, because people used their imagination to play these old games.
Metal Slug is a good example. When I was young, I was EXTREMELY impressed with the graphics of this game, but when I played the same game on the emulators many years later the graphics looked like crap to me and not the way I remembered it. Now I know standard upscaling was to blame, but lets look at this comparison.
Standard Upscaling (Square pixels)
Now add a CRT phosphor mask to give the pixels a rounded appearance, and suddenly I can understand why I was so impressed back in the 90's. I recommend to open these images in a new tab and view them at 1:1, otherwise the subpixel mask will not align correctly and create a moiré pattern.
Dino Crisis 2
Normal upscaling (square pixels)
PC version running at 1440p + AI upscaled backgrounds
PSX version again, but with CRT phosphor mask shader on top of that:
The same mask but with bezels
Dylan's character model looks like a doll in the PC version at high resolution, while in the 240p resolution he looks more like a human. Even the AI upscaled PC version look worse to me than what my mind can make from this low-res 240p image.
Today I was playing CMR3 on the PCSX2 emulator and even at 512x412 the image look sharp and detailed on my PC monitor thanks to CRT phosphor mask which made big square pixels in this game look round and pleasing to look at.
I wanted to show with these comparisons that 1440p resolution on modern consoles inst the real problem, because even much lower resolution can look amazing to human eyes when a TV can display the image without square pixels (without upscaling). People who bought 4K TVs because of the 4K marketing now have to upscale most of their games, and that's why they're not happy with the image quality, because they are looking at soft or pixelated image despite gaming at very high resolution (I can still remember the days when I had to buy the most expensive GPU on the market just to be able to run every game at 1440p). Another problem that affects image quality is TAA, so now you have a blurred image because of upscaling, and the developers blur the image further with TAA, so the image starts to look like a painting, because fine details are blurred because of upscaling and TAA . IMHO games at 1080p + MSAA look a lot sharper and more detailed to my eyes on my old 1080p GT60 plasma than 1440p + TAA vaseline galore upscaled to 4K on a modern 4K TV. Lets hope that PS5 Pro / XSX X consoles will finally run games at 4K native, because at such high resolution even TAA starts to look good (especially with good amount of sharpering mask).
It sucks that more developers don't think like you do and went the extra steps to insure the best possible image quality. It's infuriating actually this gen to see games like Alan Wake 2 or Immortals of Aveum (just 2 examples that cone to mind) looking the way they do running on Ps5/sx on my Oled. Isn't it THEIR JOB to know what works and what doesn't? Yet, so many games have bad IQ this gen!
Maybe, as you touched on, a lot of this is actually hardware limitations though as these games already have to rely on upscaling techniques like FSR as opposed to them being incompetent or worse, just not caring. Only a handful of developers are "doing it right" and delivering a pleasing mix of good graphics AND good IQ. As much as I'm disappointed that Sony hasn't pushed next gen graphics, at least their exclusives have great image quality.
This is to me the biggest reason we need a Pro. To be able to play games at 60 fps at "quality mode" levels of graphics. Hopefully if the PS5 Pro comes out we can also get 40 fps modes that push something closer to PC ultra settings. That's why I think machine learning (or just a MUCH better upscaler) plus improved RT shpuld be the two core pillars of a Pro console. I also pray it has enough memory bandwidth so that devs never have to skimp on anisotropic filtering.
$500 Pro I just can't see getting the job done. $600 seems reasonable for 40 fps + "ultra"ish settings with clean iq. We've seen that even native 1080p upscaled to 4k can look good enough on a 4k (returnal) though ideally the native res would be higher because whenever a 3rd party dev tries upscaling (with FSR2 usually) from 1080p the game looks like shit. Alan Wake 2 is the perfect example of a game that looks amazing but is ruined by its terrible image quality.
bender
What time is it?
It is dude. Maybe we have different definitions of terrible and TERRIBLE.
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Imtjnotu
Member
Its using an RTU with a Gpu.... This is hardware accelerated like Hendersons leak said.Imo, that patent reads like a software patent.
Sony patents method for “significant improvement of ray tracing speed”
In Cerny's method, the RTU hardware is specially designed to efficiently traverse so-called acceleration structures in a 3D environment, going through a stack of bounding volumes to identify points where a virtual light ray intersects with an object. Those intersections are then sent to a shader program running on the GPU, which determines whether the object is opaque (a "hit" for the ray-tracing algorithm) or transparent (i.e., the intersection can be ignored).
In the case of a hit, the GPU can then send that information back to the RTU, which can "shorten the ray, as there is no point testing past the location of the intersection of the ray with [the opaque object]." That saves processing time that would be wasted calculating further "hits" for objects that are occluded by a closer object.
Crucially, these RTU functions "can be asynchronous with respect to the shader program." That means the GPU can perform other functions as it waits for the RTU to send back any intersections it finds between light rays and in-game objects.
Handling these basics functions in the RTU (which "may include hardware circuitry" specially designed for this traversal) "may result in a significant improvement of ray tracing speed," the patent says, "as the shader program is only performing hit testing. It is not performing acceleration structure traversal or managing the corresponding stack."
Which would make sense with AMD RT patent with the implementation of the Traversal Engine.
GRAPHICS PROCESSING UNIT TRAVERSAL ENGINE
Also, I don’t think there is much an NPU would be needed for outside of OS and background tasks.
RDNA4 AI capabilities are more than enough for game related tasks.
Examining AMD’s RDNA 4 Changes in LLVM
Better Tensors
AI hype is real these days. Machine learning involves a lot of matrix multiplies, and people have found that inference can be done with lower precision data types while maintaining acceptable accuracy. GPUs have jumped on the hype train with specialized matrix multiplication instructions. RDNA 3’s WMMA (Wave Matrix Multiply Accumulate) use a matrix stored in registers across a wave, much like Nvidia’s equivalent instructions.
RDNA 4 carries these instructions forward with improvements to efficiency, and adds instructions to support 8-bit floating point formats. AMD has also added an instruction where B is a 16×32 matrix with INT4 elements instead of 16×16 as in other instructions.
Machine learning has been trending towards lower precision data types to make more efficient use of memory capacity and bandwidth. RDNA 4’s support for FP8 and BF8 shows AMD doesn’t want to be left out as new data formats are introduced.
Sparsity
Moving to lower precision data formats is one way to scale matrix multiplication performance beyond what process node and memory bandwidth improvements alone would allow. Specialized handling for sparse matrices is another way to dramatically improve performance. Matrices with a lot of zero elements are known as sparse matrices. Multiplying sparse matrices can involve a lot less math because any multiplication involving zero can be skipped. Storage and bandwidth consumption can be reduced too because the matrix can be stored in a compressed format.
RDNA 4 introduces new SWMMAC (Sparse Wave Matrix Multiply Accumulate) instructions to take advantage of sparsity. SWMMAC similarly does a C += A * B operation, but A is a sparse matrix stored in half of B’s size. A sparsity index is passed as a fourth parameter to help interpret A as a full size matrix. My interpretation of this is that the dimensions in the instruction mnemonic refer to stored matrix sizes. Thus a 16x16x32 SWMMAC instruction actually multiplies a 32×16 sparse matrix with a 16×32 dense one, producing a 32×32 result.
Loxus
Member
This is AMD's patent.
This is Sony's patent.
Both talk about traversal logic to accelerate ray tracing.
We know Sony and AMD collaborated before with the PS5's chip. They would collaborate again.
No need for Sony to invest unnecessary R&D creating a new RT unit, when they can collaborate with AMD again. So it's only logical for Sony to utilize AMD RT implementation again.
We know Sony doesn't use Microsoft DirectX Ray Tracing, so it makes sense for Sony to create a patented software base on AMD's newly added Traversal Engine.
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ZiggyPop1991
Member
The ecosystem alone is worth it for me. I have all the consoles and a steam deck. But unless it’s a game that requires mouse and keyboard. I still find myself going to my ps5. The fast loading alone was enough for me. But if this means more options for 60fps or 40fps closer to 4k options. Count me in. But at least it’s something to scale games up and not down.
playsaves3
Member
The hope is actually the pro will do slightly more than the ps5 can do but at 60 so it’s normal mode is equal to a souped up ps5 mode but at 60 and the pros quality mode would be close to high end pc at 30
playsaves3
Member
599 without disc drive is where I expect it. Really would like 699 without disc drive though and go all out
playsaves3
Member
Or physical games/a collection of games that transfers
SolidQ
Member
Here is RDNA 3.5
chipsandcheese.com
AMD RDNA 3.5’s LLVM Changes
Integrated graphics have been a key part of AMD’s strategy ever since they bought ATI. Bringing CPU and GPU blocks together in the same chip has given AMD substantial wins, including in Micro…
chipsandcheese.com
Physiognomonics
Member
Sure but both patents (Sony's and AMD's) are very similar and describe a new hardware RT traversal unit.This is AMD's patent.
This is Sony's patent.
Both talk about traversal logic to accelerate ray tracing.
We know Sony and AMD collaborated before with the PS5's chip. They would collaborate again.
No need for Sony to invest unnecessary R&D creating a new RT unit, when they can collaborate with AMD again. So it's only logical for Sony to utilize AMD RT implementation again.
We know Sony doesn't use Microsoft DirectX Ray Tracing, so it makes sense for Sony to create a patented software base on AMD's newly added Traversal Engine.
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midnightAI
Member
Oof, can you imagine if these specs leak this week before Phil does his parting speech?
Loxus
Member
That's kind of my point.
Many think Sony will create their own type of RT, but they'll collaborate and use AMD's RT again. Which is why the patent are similar.
The new Traversal Engine is just the results of collaboration.
This is from Road to PS5.
"But that feature set is malleable which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes.
So collaboration is born.
If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful then they can be adopted into RDNA - and used broadly including in PC GPUs.
If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we're trying to accomplish like the GPU cache scrubbers I was talking about then they end up being just for us."
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
TheRedRiders
Member
Extremely likely it is.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I think there was a report that MS bought a load more PS5 dev kits, not sure if it was true though.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Sony is not going to start their online store once again and lock users from their previous gens once again for sure. They have nothing to gain from that.
Celcius
°Temp. member
I’m also starting to think it may have been discussed at one point but cancelled.
YeulEmeralda
Member
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Sony ninjas are really good so far. But DICE is coming up so.....
MikeM
Member
More likely now than ever as they get more and more PC-like.
TheRedRiders
Member
Colin Moriarty confirms that he has spoken to 3rd party developers who have seen the Pro developer kits. Basically confirming it’s real. Skip to 1:34:30
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
playsaves3
Member
i want a $700 pro and them go all out i think 700 is the max limit for a premium console before it becomes unappealing to console players and pc players
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
This Pro wont be that as they didn't go all out
We will see what next gen brings and who brings it first
playsaves3
Member
they could get early access to it similar to how the ps5 got early for rdna 2. zen 5 is coming out around now so it will be almost a year between now and the pro why are you against zen 5
Crispy Gamer
Member
I agree 100% with Colin about games looking so good on high end tvs that playing anything under 60 is a no go so the Pro console basically focusing on better image quality and framerates with easier development vs ps4 & ps4 pro is a smart move by Sony I don't think this console will break the bank.
playsaves3
Member
next gen would still have large performance leaps over a 700 pro your really underselling how different 2028-2029 will be
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I think nextgen starts well before 2028
asdasdasdbb
Member
Which is dumb, for a lot of reasons. Either the consoles will be a lot more expensive or not all that impressive. I think we are headed torwards the end of heavily subsidized hardware on top.
MisterXDTV
Member
Next-gen will start when Sony announces PS6 whenever that is
Desperation moves by Microsoft don't matter (even if they do make them)
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
playsaves3
Member
For Xbox yes not for ps and if next gen really starts “well before” 2028 then it would be pretty stupid to have a prob