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[thetrin]

Ugh. Buying games is a luxury, period. New or used. Developers just want rules that only apply to them and not the rest of the world of consumerism.

Again, when they get their way, either through technology or law, they'll find out that those used games were how they ended up with so many sales in the first place. Without used games, a large segment of gaming will just stop buying games because they won't be able to trade in their old ones to offset the high cost of a new one.

Essentially, a luxury industry trying to masquerade as a disposable fast food industry.

 

[Duxxy3]

And the cracked PC version will probably have sewers open from the start.

Anyhow, i'm looking forward to Rage for my PC. May not buy it til it hits $40 but i will get it at some point. Actually now that i look at my steam list the only game i payed full price for was Half life 2.

 

[M.J. Doja]

I'm just saying.. I get along JUST fine without selling my old games to buy new (or used) ones, and I'm not rich by any means. This does devalue your used item (as if you were getting much for it compared to what Gamestop sells them for) but if you sold your used games to buy a new copy of your favorite game, the developer would have no problem with you.

I see how some of you are saying that this would make a game worth that much less on resale because people have to take online passes into account. Kind of sucks, the market should still be there, I just don't like how Gamestop does it.

edit: pretty sure every version on the PC would have these sewers unless they were considered DLC, and paid DLC at that. This isn't DRM as far as I can tell.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

So, here's a serious question I have for you and for anyone else who's upset about this:

Should developers encourage people to buy their game first hand? Should it be something they want?

I think the obvious only answer to this question is yes. So is it greedy to want people to buy your product first hand?

If it's a tiny nod to those who have indeed bought the game first hand (maybe a small in game perk or bonus, nothing that would directly change gameplay) then why is that ridiculed?

I understand and would be upset myself if it was a massive exclusion/inclusion or something that directly changed gameplay, but small things don't bug me, and I don't see a logical reason they should bug anyone.

the game industry managed to survive and thrive for 30 years despite a used game industry, maybe in part to that industry.

No game designer worth their job title should be actively encouraging practices that cause less people to consume their work.

Back when this generation first started, games were 60 dollars and you got the whole package, with nominal DLC and t-shirts as pre-order bonuses.

These days you pay the same 60 dollars and get less of the game, map packs and DLC that splits communities, and actual game content as pre-order bonuses that makes anyone who buys the game day 2 immediately have their game be devalued.

I attribute this to the game industry having no concept of how much is too much. Back in the beginning they justified the 60 by making games that has obviously cutting edge graphics, and new stuff only the brand new console could produce.

These days, those things don't sell. The original idea that a game being in HD was the sole selling point of the extra 10$ is long gone. But game designers and publishers are still holding onto this idea that 60 dollars is a value. If so many people buy games used that it's a major new problem for the bottom line, it obviously means that 60 dollars isn't a value anymore.

But they've got themselves so trapped in this idea that every single game needs to have multi-million dollar budgets and has to sell 4 million copies, when that's just not sustainable. Why do we actively support and industry where one wrong design choice can cost hundreds of jobs and destroy a company? Imagine any other industry that puts out one mediocre (not even that BAD) project and the company goes under immediately following modest sales (like Homefront). That's not a healthy industry. That's an industry teetering on the edge of a crash, and policies like this that devalue a product perceived value are driving it closer and closer to major problems.

 

[Derrick01]

I'm ok with this I guess. I don't sympathize at all with people who don't give the devs any money, wether it's by piracy or used games or renting. That being said this is thin ice territory, how long until someone like EA wants to cut important parts out as DLC for everyone?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I'm ok with this I guess. I don't sympathize at all with people who don't give the devs any money, wether it's by piracy or used games or renting. That being said this is thin ice territory, how long until someone like EA wants to cut important parts out as DLC for everyone?

there's more to getting returns than just the raw money.

Someone having and consuming your game that they bought used can actually have more of a positive effect on the future sales of your product than neglecting them.

In the age of yearly sequels, game designers and publishers should easily see the benefits of allowing people to play older, previous entries in the series.
But they don't because the game industry has no idea how to run the game industry anymore.

 

[Suairyu]

there's more to getting returns than just the raw money.

Someone having and consuming your game that they bought used can actually have more of a positive effect on the future sales of your product than neglecting them.

In the age of yearly sequels, game designers and publishers should easily see the benefits of allowing people to play older, previous entries in the series.
But they don't because the game industry has no idea how to run the game industry anymore.

If I was to guess (which is what you're doing right now anyway, so fair shout), people who buy that one game used will tend to buy most of their games used.

 

[RedNumberFive]

I'm ok with this I guess. I don't sympathize at all with people who don't give the devs any money, wether it's by piracy or used games or renting. That being said this is thin ice territory, how long until someone like EA wants to cut important parts out as DLC for everyone?

Let me get this straight. So what you're saying essentially is that if I were to say lend you a Blu-Ray and chapters 7, 9, and 13 were locked behind a paywall, that you'd be OK with that? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

I'm also guessing that you're not a big supporter of our nation's public libraries?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

If I was to guess (which is what you're doing right now anyway, so fair shout), people who buy that one game used will tend to buy most of their games used.

I'm not guessing anything. Consuming a product is consuming a product, and either way it has positive effects on the company and industry as a whole.

Even if they buy all their games used, they still play with their friends (many of which bought it new), talk about the game and buy DLC

All three of which contribute to the publisher making money
All three of which would never have happened without a used market

And somewhere along the line that used copy was a new copy.

 

[Derrick01]

Let me get this straight. So what you're saying essentially is that if I were to say lend you a Blu-Ray and chapters 7, 9, and 13 were locked behind a paywall, that you'd be OK with that? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

I'm also guessing that you're not a big supporter of our nation's public libraries?

I don't really ask to borrow things because I don't want to lend my stuff to other people, so yeah I wouldn't really care. And I haven't been to a library since I was in high school, I buy the few books I want.

 

[Tain]

Let me get this straight. So what you're saying essentially is that if I were to say lend you a Blu-Ray and chapters 7, 9, and 13 were locked behind a paywall, that you'd be OK with that? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

I'm also guessing that you're not a big supporter of our nation's public libraries?

Do you know for sure that the game was built around the sewers being there?

Because, believe me, I'd really like to know before I start playing and get a game that's way too easy because some bonus dungeon gave me too much shit too early on!

 

[RedNumberFive]

I don't really ask to borrow things because I don't want to lend my stuff to other people, so yeah I wouldn't really care. And I haven't been to a library since I was in high school, I buy the few books I want.

I wish that I were able to live the lifestyle where I never had to rent a movie, buy a used game, or borrow a book from the library. It must be nice to buy everything sight unseen.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Do you know for sure that the game was built around the sewers being there?

Because, believe me, I'd really like to know before I start playing and get a game that's way too easy because some bonus dungeon gave me too much shit too early on!

Well the game is not currently out, and is in production, so by default the game is currently being built around the sewers being there.

 

[Brannon]

Thankfully there are is no such thing as used PC games anymore, so I can wait for the price drop from $50 to $30 or whatever a couple weeks after it's out in Best Buy. I'm sure they'll have a $10 gift card with it as well.

Sucks for offline console players though. One of the many reasons games these days aren't worth anywhere near $60, and never will be.

 

[Version 3.0]

Right, complain to gamestop. And its side content most will never play. It's completely fair that second hand buyers or someone borrowing the game miss out on it.

Is it fair that I get this content on my Xbox, but my kids on their own Xbox don't? What's so goddamned terrible about more than one person using a game?

 

[Version 3.0]

I don't really ask to borrow things because I don't want to lend my stuff to other people, so yeah I wouldn't really care. And I haven't been to a library since I was in high school, I buy the few books I want.

Great attitude. "It doesn't affect me, I don't care". You also sound like a great friend.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Great attitude. "It doesn't affect me, I don't care". You also sound like a great friend.

Selfishness and a lack of apathy seem to be the crux of his argument.

 

[dream]

My god, the term "first-time buyer" just irritates me. Do publishers actually use that?

 

[Error Macro]

I can't wait until the game industry completely collapses under the weight of all this bullshit they are piling up.

Amongst the rubble in the post-apocalypse wasteland there will be an SNES connected to a television. Scattered about are various cartridges. You take one and insert it into the console and power it on. The game simply starts, and you are greeted with the very essence of what is video games--no forced installs, no DRM, no DLC, no patches (because the game was thoroughly tested), no online pass, no offline pass, no getting punished for being a legitimate customer or for buying second hand.

There are parallels to be made between the current global financial crisis and the video game industry. Both are headed down paths of unsustainability. The implosion is inevitable.

 

[Tain]

While I think the practice of fighting the used game market is scummy and misguided, I could never care enough about the first time buyer schemes I've seen thus far to cause me to give up some of my personal pleasure in an effort to help fight against them.

sorry state-of-the-industry warriors, i want to play this game, and we aren't in some kind of brotherhood of gamers together :[

 

[Zenith]

Before people lable me as a "second hand scrub" or whatever, I by my games new. I only buy stuff second hand if it's an older titles.

But there's nothing wrong with buying things second-hand. It's a free market and pretty much every other industry seems to manage ok.

Are people really this brain-washed?

 

[RedNumberFive]

But there's nothing wrong with buying things second-hand. It's a free market and pretty much every other industry seems to manage ok.

Are people really this brain-washed?

This is GAF, where we place developers that we don't even know on the highest pedestal. Where buying a used game is taking the food from the mouths of the developer's children. Where the game industry has a special set of rules applied to them that allows them to "double dip". Here, we don't just drink the publisher's Kool-Aid, we bathe in it!

 

[Brannon]

This is GAF, where we place developers that we don't even know on the highest pedestal. Where buying a used game is taking the food from the mouths of the developer's children. Where the game industry has a special set of rules applied to them that allows them to "double dip". Here, we don't just drink the publisher's Kool-Aid, we bathe in it!

Which is odd because this mode of though didn't even exist, or barely did until recently. Now it's basically 'used buyer = peeeeedophile' in terms of overzealousness*. So easily manipulated we are.

 

[Windom Earle]

Very cool!

 

[-PXG-]

But there's nothing wrong with buying things second-hand. It's a free market and pretty much every other industry seems to manage ok.

Are people really this brain-washed?

I know there isn't. I just said that so people wouldn't miss my point. Sadly, for some oddball reason, some people here act like used sales are just as bad as piracy of theft.

There are people on GAF who are totally okay with us not having control over shit we buy. This generation has been shitty and the industry is going downward, partially because of consumers with such a mindset.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Which is odd because this mode of though didn't even exist, or barely did until recently. Now it's basically 'used buyer = peeeeedophile' in terms of overzealousness*. So easily manipulated we are.

Guess it's redirected console fanboyism.

 

[KageMaru]

I wonder how good of an incentive this really is if most people won't even realize they are there.

 

[StuBurns]

But there's nothing wrong with buying things second-hand. It's a free market and pretty much every other industry seems to manage ok.

Are people really this brain-washed?

It's not even close to every industry is it (I know you're not saying it is)? Can you buy Photoshop used? What about airplane tickets?

There are items that are tied to users, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's been like this on PC for awhile.

 

[Lothars]

I know there isn't. I just said that so people wouldn't miss my point. Sadly, for some oddball reason, some people here act like used sales are just as bad as piracy of theft.

There are people on GAF who are totally okay with us not having control over shit we buy. This generation has been shitty and the industry is going downward, partially because of consumers with such a mindset.

I disagree about this Generation being shitty, It hasn`t been, yes there has been shitty things going on but for the most part this has been a fantastic generation.

I agree there is nothing wrong with used game sales as well but I don`t have a problem with developers doing things like this, I will still buy games used.

There are items that are tied to users, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's been like this on PC for awhile.

I feel the same way, it really isn`t that big of a deal.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Which is odd because this mode of though didn't even exist, or barely did until recently. Now it's basically 'used buyer = peeeeedophile' in terms of overzealousness*. So easily manipulated we are.

I think it's just a sign of the internet age. Because of the internet, we're offered much more of a glimpse into the creative process of making games, and developers and fans alike seem to have much more of a relationship than ever before. Many fans though, take this relationship too far, and act like they're best buds with these developers. At the end of the day they're just making a "product" and thats where my relationship with them ends. If they're intent on selling me crippled software, then it's my choice to not purchase it, without feeling guilty for "not supporting the industry". If companies that employ these scummy tactics go out of business, so be it. There are a dozen more poised to take their place.

 

[RedNumberFive]

It's not even close to every industry is it (I know you're not saying it is)? Can you buy Photoshop used? What about airplane tickets?

There are items that are tied to users, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's been like this on PC for awhile.

In most cases, you can most certainly transfer your plane ticket to another recipient. As for software licenses, it's certainly a gray area, but at my office, we can transfer them from one user to another without a problem.

 

[Littlegator]

Looks like I'll be waiting for the $20 bomba instead of buying it relatively early and being able to enjoy a multiplayer community that actually has players.

 

[Novacain]

If you buy from a retailer, new or used your money does not go to the developer. The retailer has bought all of those copies for significantly less than $60 per copy and sells them to you to turn a profit at that price.

Here is my real problem with stuff like this though, the official xbox live user base according to the lastest user count is at 35 million (counting both gold and silver)

Total xbox 360 sales worldwide are 55 million. There is a huge element of consumers that get boned by this if they want to purchase the game new. 20 million offline xbox 360s is a lot. I don't know about ps3 statistics for that stuff, but it's probably similar.

All of the 360 stats I mentioned are here: http://majornelson.com/2011/06/03/a-few-stats-before-we-head-into-e3/

 

[Special J]

probably shit

i get it. sewers have feces in them.

 

[StuBurns]

If you buy from a retailer, new or used your money does not go to the developer. The retailer has bought all of those copies for significantly less than $60 per copy and sells them to you to turn a profit at that price.

Here is my real problem with stuff like this though, the official xbox live user base according to the lastest user count is at 35 million (counting both gold and silver)

Total xbox 360 sales worldwide are 55 million. There is a huge element of consumers that get boned by this if they want to purchase the game new. 20 million offline xbox 360s is a lot. I don't know about ps3 statistics for that stuff, but it's probably similar.

All of the 360 stats I mentioned are here: http://majornelson.com/2011/06/03/a-few-stats-before-we-head-into-e3/

There might not be twenty million people. It's twenty million machines. I know a few people who have bought a number of systems.

 

[LM4sure]

Damn, now I have to buy this game new!! I MUST FIND OUT WHAT IS IN THESE SEWERS!!

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Am I misreading this or are people actually happy that a game is sealing off singleplayer content unless you buy it brand new?

Looks that way doesn't it. Can't say it shocks me anymore.

 

[Zeliard]

Am I reading some of these posts right? You guys are okay with locking single player content? Man, I guess we're fucked.

I'm more surprised that people are surprised by this. There's always been an unfortunate element on GAF that rushes at every turn to defend the latest bit of corporate douchebaggery and to flaunt their embarrassing complacency, actually proud of the fact that they bury their heads in the sand.

 

[fabricated backlash]

But there's nothing wrong with buying things second-hand. It's a free market and pretty much every other industry seems to manage ok.

Are people really this brain-washed?

They obviously are. I mean how anyone seriously could believe PR bullshit like used games destroy our industry is beyond me. Seriously, at this point many gamers seem to be so comfortable eating shit fed to them by PR that they want desert with it as well.

Critical thinking... who needs that when the poor developers tell me that used games are bad.

Next up, allways online DRM to lose even the last bit of control over a purchase you made.

The games industry and it's consumer politics are becoming increasingly disgusting.

 

[Novacain]

There might not be twenty million people. It's twenty million machines. I know a few people who have bought a number of systems.

I fully agree that there is likely variation in either direction of those statistics, but as a worldwide figure its easy for me to imagine millions of people without xbox live access around the globe. Even if it's 5 million, that is still a tremendous number of people.

 

[StuBurns]

I fully agree that there is likely variation in either direction of those statistics, but as a worldwide figure its easy for me to imagine millions of people without xbox live access around the globe. Even if it's 5 million, that is still a tremendous number of people.

Yes, there's no doubt those people exist in a significant number. It really depends what this unlocked content is. 'Sewers' is pretty vague.

I think as long as they aren't hiding it from people, so they go into a purchase knowing they aren't going to experience it all (and they aren't because it has MP anyway), then I think it's okay. Still not good, any content like this should be about the MP I think. Give people exclusive co-op missions or something.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It's not even close to every industry is it (I know you're not saying it is)? Can you buy Photoshop used? What about airplane tickets?

There are items that are tied to users, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's been like this on PC for awhile.

Games on the PC don't generally cost 60 dollars (that's only a recent trend, and I'm not sure how long it'll last), which immediately helps ease that problem.

Further, PC games just tend to offer more value than console games anyway (even at 60 dollars). Mods, much better graphics, a persistent online community, ease of access. Often PC games have free DLC



And for the record, the airplane industry is a horrible example. That's a dying industry that's on life support, so saying using it as a good example of a policy that works... well it actually goes against your point.

 

[StuBurns]

And for the record, the airplane industry is a horrible example. That's a dying industry that's on life support, so saying using it as a good example of a policy that works... well it actually goes against your point.

I didn't use it as an example to be positive or negative, in fact it wasn't an example, it was a question, the question marks were intended to convey that, possibly they were too subtle.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Games on the PC don't generally cost 60 dollars (that's only a recent trend, and I'm not sure how long it'll last), which immediately helps ease that problem.

Further, PC games just tend to offer more value than console games anyway (even at 60 dollars). Mods, much better graphics, a persistent online community, ease of access. Often PC games have free DLC



And for the record, the airplane industry is a horrible example. That's a dying industry that's on life support, so saying using it as a good example of a policy that works... well it actually goes against your point.

The airline ticket also doesn't work because it's comparing a good to a service. Of course I can't sell a "used" airplane ticket. Unfortunately, the industry is heading more and more to software as a service.

 

[BobTheFork]

You know, I think the collective minds here have pretty much spit on every single attempt made by a dev to try and curtail used games sales. It's time to ask the question, is there any good way for a developer to do this at all? There's been locking online, locking feature, and now locking off part of the game area. Is there a good solution or are people just really mad that they are even trying to get money back on what is the parallel market?

I honestly can't think of anything that would work.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Remember a time when games came with maps, booklets and other nice goodies.
Remember when you got a t-shirt when you pre-ordered games?

Those are the best forms of value adding and promotion. When I'm buying a game, I'm buying it for the game, so me not having a t-shirt or a map is something I have to decide I don't want when buying used. Eliminating portions of game content, however, when I'm buying a game, is a system that devalues the actual product I'm buying.

 

[StuBurns]

The airline ticket also doesn't work because it's comparing a good to a service. Of course I can't sell a "used" airplane ticket. Unfortunately, the industry is heading more and more to software as a service.

You don't buy the game, you buy the license to play the game. It is a service.

 

[RedNumberFive]

You know, I think the collective minds here have pretty much spit on every single attempt made by a dev to try and curtail used games sales. It's time to ask the question, is there any good way for a developer to do this at all? There's been locking online, locking feature, and now locking off part of the game area. Is there a good solution or are people just really mad that they are even trying to get money back on what is the parallel market?

I honestly can't think of anything that would work.

Just purchased Catherine, which incentivized users to purchase new and early by giving them a free artbook and soundtrack. Dark Souls is doing something similar, which is why I have it preordered. See you can add incentive to buy games early and new without stripping content out. Easy peasy!

 

[ElRenoRaven]

You know, I think the collective minds here have pretty much spit on every single attempt made by a dev to try and curtail used games sales. It's time to ask the question, is there any good way for a developer to do this at all? There's been locking online, locking feature, and now locking off part of the game area. Is there a good solution or are people just really mad that they are even trying to get money back on what is the parallel market?

I honestly can't think of anything that would work.

No. There is not other then including bonuses like making of, art books, etc. You don't see anyone else intentionally screwing their products when used so that you can't resell them. There is one exception and sadly it's our hobby of choice.

 

[BobTheFork]

Just purchased Catherine, which incentivized users to purchase new and early by giving them a free artbook and soundtrack. Dark Souls is doing something similar, which is why I have it preordered. See you can add incentive to buy games early and new without stripping content out. Easy peasy!

hmm, maybe. It might help the early adopters but it's more than that. The developers want people who buy the game a little bit later (after the swag is gone) to buy it new not used. The big selling titles all have decent legs and I think for the devs it's more about protecting those legs, not just getting them on day one with free stuff.