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[orthodoxy1095]

What? Hell no. I can review and rate what ever the fuck I want. I have no idea ehat this discussion is about but jut in general, why would I have to be professional to rate stuff?

You can rate it sure.

Doesn't mean you're a qualified professional or a legitimate critic. You're just some shmuck on the Internet, like any other number of shmucks.

I agree.

The proposal that every game critic should be qualified would basically turn every gaming publication into Edge, and I'll be fucked if having one Edge isn't boring or pretentious enough as it is.

Professional credentials doesn't require pretension.

 

[MoonFrog]

I find Platinum Games to be insanely over-rated and their fan base insufferable. I mean, they're great developers but when you have people that feel they could take every game ever made and make them all ten times, I won't lie, I find it kind of annoying, especially when many of their games have a lot of flaws, despite being a lot of fun

Hmmm...

I think it's the bent towards tight action in enthusiast circles. Like when people go on and on about how Dark Souls is a modern Zelda or Metroid, better than the less combat oriented games in those series. The thing is...DS is not Zelda or Metroid, but an action RPG with a world map that is a labyrinth with combat checks and light RE-style puzzle checks instead of the gadget and heavier puzzle checks that exist in Nintendo action games. But because DS requires more skill in its moment to moment situations, i.e. combat, certain enthusiast gamers are loathe to accept that difference as anything but Zelda/Metroid being worse than DS.

What makes it more ridiculous is that often times older entries will be held up as being betrayed by more recent entries and as being more in line with DS. Outside NES games, that is a really silly claim. aLttP, OoT, SM, etc. aren't particularly difficult and while the SNES games are probably harder than the 3D games, it's not like the 3D games are getting easier. It is that they're not getting harder at the same pace we're getting better at gaming, for the most part.

...

As to Platinum, enthusiasts see a game that has light action elements and they ask themselves: why isn't this a character action game where I can get those same thrills and ego trips as I platinum my way through? And they can't find an answer except that the game is inferior.

It's really narrow-minded.

Which, well if that's how narrow your tastes are, that's how narrow they are, but please have some awareness that other people are not always looking for that one experience and there are other ways to be a good game even if it's not for you.

 

[Andyliini]

I like Nintendo, and think they make great games.
Also Japanese-made games are usually better and more interesting than western-made ones.

 

[pretty done]

I like Nintendo, and think they make great games.
Also Japanese-made games are usually better and more interesting than western-made ones.

This is the least controversial post in the thread

I like Nintendo too, I just wish they were half as good at hardware as they are at software. Their controllers have been shit for two generations now and their hardware overall is overpriced and underpowered. I'll still get an NX if it's outputting 1080p on every game at least, their Wii U games were all jaggy af with garbage IQ outside of Sm4sh and HD remakes.

 

[Andyliini]

This is the least controversial post in the thread

I like Nintendo too, I just wish they were half as good at hardware as they are at software. Their controllers have been shit for two generations now and their hardware overall is overpriced and underpowered. I'll still get an NX if it's outputting 1080p on every game at least, their Wii U games were all jaggy af with garbage IQ outside of Sm4sh and HD remakes.

OK, not really controversial, but unpopular one.
And believe me, where I live, even grown-up people may consider you "strange" if you like anything Nintendo-related. I have met those people in quantities.

 

[MoonFrog]

You can rate it sure.

Doesn't mean you're a qualified professional or a legitimate critic. You're just some shmuck on the Internet, like any other number of shmucks.

Professional credentials doesn't require pretension.

Hmmm...only thing is, are video games respected as an art form at a place that'd give you a decent art history degree?

I really don't want reviews that are judging every game by something other than the game-ness of it. Sure plenty of games go for narrative, visual or audio design, and sometimes as their main things, but...game design critique seems outside the purview of traditional art education.

I guess take your education and your discernment with games and build something new from there, but I'm just getting fears of people trying to judge games as things they aren't. It would fit better with some games that want to be something else, but it really wouldn't work well with the games I care about the most.

But yes, games criticism currently is dumb as fuck.

...

Also, to the counter cry of 'screw professionals, degrees,' etc. Yes, education does not imply expertise and lack of education does not imply the opposite, but education is our only real option towards building expertise.

I don't think anyone wants the veneer of expertise with the relative lack of it, i.e. pretension.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Hmmm...only thing is, are video games respected as an art form at a place that'd give you a decent art history degree?

I really don't want reviews that are judging every game by something other than the game-ness of it. Sure plenty of games go for narrative, visual or audio design, and sometimes as their main things, but...game design critique seems outside the purview of traditional art education.

I guess take your education and your discernment with games and build something new from there, but I'm just getting fears of people trying to judge games as things they aren't. It would fit better with some games that want to be something else, but it really wouldn't work well with the games I care about the most.

But yes, games criticism currently is dumb as fuck.

Well probably no, they're probably not respected enough. Which is why I said earlier that I wouldn't be so harsh on a requirement for a BFA.

Like I said initially in response to the idea: In general I'd like to see people with better backgrounds in art history, critique and writing skills. The stuff you read from "reviews" is often of such a poor quality, filled with poor writing techniques that my high school English teacher would have ripped me on. Let alone what kind of quality a "professional" critic should be putting out.

In regards to stuff outside of the "game-ness," I agree to a certain extent. I would personally still like there to be at least more "artistic critique," considering things like aesthetics, themes, narratives, etc (although it doesn't need to take over the entire critique scene). There are enough games that are doing narrative focuses and "indie art" spins that we could use more people exploring that stuff (I'm guilty of a personal bis here though because those are the kinds of games I love the most). Hell, I'd like to see more people critiquing that stuff just to push devs to do more so that we can evolve beyond the garbage writing present in 85% of games. So a better understanding of art history in other mediums (film, TV, literature, painting, etc) would be excellent foundations for that kind of critique.

But more importantly, I'd like to see critics having a better understanding of the art history of their own medium. There's such a huge gaming illiteracy issue among professional critics that it's mindboggling. And yes, before someone jumps on this, there is value in having some "outsider" opinions. But that shouldn't be the majority of voices in the professional critic circles.

 

[TwistedFreeze]

Hmmm...

I think it's the bent towards tight action in enthusiast circles. Like when people go on and on about how Dark Souls is a modern Zelda or Metroid, better than the less combat oriented games in those series. The thing is...DS is not Zelda or Metroid, but an action RPG with a world map that is a labyrinth with combat checks and light RE-style puzzle checks instead of the gadget and heavier puzzle checks that exist in Nintendo action games. But because DS requires more skill in its moment to moment situations, i.e. combat, certain enthusiast gamers are loathe to accept that difference as anything but Zelda/Metroid being worse than DS.

What makes it more ridiculous is that often times older entries will be held up as being betrayed by more recent entries and as being more in line with DS. Outside NES games, that is a really silly claim. aLttP, OoT, MM, etc. aren't particularly difficult and while the SNES games are probably harder than the 3D games, it's not like the 3D games are getting easier. It is that they're not getting harder at the same pace we're getting better at gaming, for the most part.

...

As to Platinum, enthusiasts see a game that has light action elements and they ask themselves: why isn't this a character action game where I can get those same thrills and ego trips as I platinum my way through? And they can't find an answer except that the game is inferior.

It's really narrow-minded.

Which, well if that's how narrow your tastes are, that's how narrow they are, but please have some awareness that other people are not always looking for that one experience and there are other ways to be a good game even if it's not for you.

Yeah, exactly! Dark Souls may have somethings in common with something like Zelda or Metroid but they play and are structured very differently. Even the NES ones are very different from Dark Souls, aside from being difficult games but the NES games are difficult for different reasons, I feel, such as being rather cryptic and offering little to no sense of direction. Never quite understood why people felt SoulsBourne is a modern NES Zelda

Yeah, tell me about it. I mean, I get loving their games. They make great games but not every character action game, or game in general, should play like or be like one of Platinum Games games

 

[GIANKRATOS]

Ugly is a bit much, I think the aesthetic was pretty well liked.

Personally, i think that the graphics looks really bad, and the artstyle it's nothing special either. The creatures just looks like a mix of earth animals, like rats, squirrels and praying mantis.

 

[spliced]

Too many 2D games use big head on tiny body character designs.

I don't like super tiny proportional size characters either.

 

[Wilfred Nord]

As an umbrella term the word "gaming" is too reductive and is hurting the medium.

 

[MoonFrog]

Well probably no, they're probably not respected enough. Which is why I said earlier that I wouldn't be so harsh on a requirement for a BFA.

Like I said initially in response to the idea: In general I'd like to see people with better backgrounds in art history, critique and writing skills. The stuff you read from "reviews" is often of such a poor quality, filled with poor writing techniques that my high school English teacher would have ripped me on. Let alone what kind of quality a "professional" critic should be putting out.

In regards to stuff outside of the "game-ness," I agree to a certain extent. I would personally still like there to be at least more "artistic critique," considering things like aesthetics, themes, narratives, etc (although it doesn't need to take over the entire critique scene). There are enough games that are doing narrative focuses and "indie art" spins that we could use more people exploring that stuff (I'm guilty of a personal bis here though because those are the kinds of games I love the most). Hell, I'd like to see more people critiquing that stuff just to push devs to do more so that we can evolve beyond the garbage writing present in 85% of games. So a better understanding of art history in other mediums (film, TV, literature, painting, etc) would be excellent foundations for that kind of critique.

But more importantly, I'd like to see critics having a better understanding of the art history of their own medium. There's such a huge gaming illiteracy issue among professional critics that it's mindboggling. And yes, before someone jumps on this, there is value in having some "outsider" opinions. But that shouldn't be the majority of voices in the professional critic circles.

Hmmm...perhaps if art games or story games were actually good at art/story, I'd be more interested in them and yes a good critical movement could move them in that direction.

I feel those games occupy an awkward space, where (often, not always) lacking gameplay is forgiven because the story is good and that means the story is praised for being 'better than other games,' 'like a summer blockbuster,' etc., which aren't particularly high bars. In the end it's just this fan-ish statement of enjoyment, rather than actually presenting a critique as to why the story is good.

 

[LordRaptor]

The No Mans Sky backlash from people who pre-emptively hyped the shit out of it and invented their own open universe action MMO Star Citizen killer that doesn't exist (from the makers of Joe Danger!) is massively disproportionate, overly personal and, frankly, shameful.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

When I saw this thread get bumped I knew it would be about no man's sky

 

[Rexatality]

Dishonored's art-style and world building is one of the best in the gaming industry

 

[wesleyshark]

Dishonored's art-style and world building is one of the best in the gaming industry

This is controversial?? I totally agree with you my man.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Halo 5 has a better soundtrack than Halo 3.

But Halo 3 still has a better menu theme. (Mythic disc too.)

 

[Psycho Echidna]

Sega has the best and most diverse games and unmatched soundtrack library, of any other game company.

 

[spekkeh]

The No Mans Sky backlash from people who pre-emptively hyped the shit out of it and invented their own open universe action MMO Star Citizen killer that doesn't exist (from the makers of Joe Danger!) is massively disproportionate, overly personal and, frankly, shameful.

Shouldn't be controversial.

 

[Night Hunter]

People who say that the story of The Last of Us is good 'for a game' don't have any idea, what they are talking about.

It may not be the absolute pinnacle of storytelling and characterisation, but it's still better than 90% of most other media.

 

[Henkka]

People who say that the story of The Last of Us is good 'for a game' don't have any idea, what they are talking about.

It may not be the absolute pinnacle of storytelling and characterisation, but it's still better than 90% of most other media.

90% may be pushing it, but yeah, I think TLOU has a better story than most movies and TV series nowadays.

 

[Simple Soul]

People who say that the story of The Last of Us is good 'for a game' don't have any idea, what they are talking about.

It may not be the absolute pinnacle of storytelling and characterisation, but it's still better than 90% of most other media.

Yeah, I also think that TLoU is great in general, not just in video games.

Uncharted, on the other hand, is something I consider to have poor writing. It's a bit more witty than most games, and the cutscenes are movie-like quality, so it can be really dazzling for gamers. But if I went to a movie and got quip after quip after quip after quip, mixed with a few tired cliches over and over again across the entire series, I wouldn't have left the theatre feeling impressed with the movie. It's a series with some fun banter, but not one with interesting stories or dialogues in my opinion.

 

[Langdon Alger]

but a genuine critical analysis of shape, color, form, function, technique, historical context, etc.

No one would want to read this.

 

[Night Hunter]

90% may be pushing it, but yeah, I think TLOU has a better story than most movies and TV series nowadays.

Yeah ok, that number may be tales from my ass.

I think the biggest problems are books, as you can't really directly compare them anyway. Strictly audio-visual media might be the better comparison.

Yeah, I also think that TLoU is great in general, not just in video games.

Uncharted, on the other hand, is something I consider to have poor writing. It's a bit more witty than most games, and the cutscenes are movie-like quality, so it can be really dazzling for gamers. But if I went to a movie and got quip after quip after quip after quip, mixed with a few tired cliches over and over again across the entire series, I wouldn't have left the theatre feeling impressed with the movie. It's a series with some fun banter, but not one with interesting stories or dialogues in my opinion.

I agree with Uncharted. Just played it for the first time a month ago, and aside from 4, the banter is pretty much the only thing these games have going for them narrative wise.

 

[Paracelsus]

I have a new one, about Resident Evil, yet another "nostalgia" thread gave me the idea.

Just because it's called Resident Evil they aren't allowed to do anything they want with it. Imo people who defend first person are people who refuse to acknowledge the series is dead and now they're playing Doc Frankenstein with the corpse.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Imo a real profession game critic would have at least a BFA or good art history background.

Besides, they don't teach you anything about games in art history. These are still games we're talking about.

 

[spekkeh]

People who say that the story of The Last of Us is good 'for a game' don't have any idea, what they are talking about.

It may not be the absolute pinnacle of storytelling and characterisation, but it's still better than 90% of most other media.

I think TLoU's story is decent on itself, but set off against other media it's derivative and not worth telling.

 

[Rellik]

I have a new one, about Resident Evil, yet another "nostalgia" thread gave me the idea.

Just because it's called Resident Evil they aren't allowed to do anything they want with it. Imo people who defend first person are people who refuse to acknowledge the series is dead and now they're playing Doc Frankenstein with the corpse.

Agreed. It's tough to talk about it in a Resident Evil thread because you get buried by people wanting tank controls in a tiny mansion despite that not being a thing in mainline RE for many, many years now. I welcome a new direction. I can't wait to try it out.

 

[danmaku]

I have a new one, about Resident Evil, yet another "nostalgia" thread gave me the idea.

Just because it's called Resident Evil they aren't allowed to do anything they want with it. Imo people who defend first person are people who refuse to acknowledge the series is dead and now they're playing Doc Frankenstein with the corpse.

"You can't like this game because it has the wrong title!"

 

[timberger]

I think TLoU's story is decent on itself, but set off against other media it's derivative and not worth telling.

Using "other media" as some nebulous catch-all like that is pretty pointless as you could be talking about anything. For example, I finished watching all the episodes currently out of 'Fear the Walking Dead' last week, and I'd sure as shit say I enjoyed TLOU's story a lot more than that pretentious horseshit, but at the same time I'd sooner watch Raiders of the Lost Ark than play TLOU any day of the week.

 

[spekkeh]

I meant in the sense that it didn't have the resonance of say a The Road, or Children of Men, nor a twist like I am Legend. It's a pretty standard, derivative, zombie story with very little going for it except decent characters. The Walking Dead is a good comparison because I also don't really have an interest in that.

 

[Sesuadra]

I wouldn't be strict on the BFA, but otherwise, I'm absolutely in favor of critics having more credentials.

Better backgrounds in art history, critique and writing skills would be a boon for this industry.

The enthusiast press masquerading as "professional critics" is a complete and utter joke.

really? because I've a background in east-asian art history>> I was thinking about making a blog and write about motives in j-rpgs..but I don't know if people would be interested..

 

[petran79]

Well probably no, they're probably not respected enough. Which is why I said earlier that I wouldn't be so harsh on a requirement for a BFA.

Like I said initially in response to the idea: In general I'd like to see people with better backgrounds in art history, critique and writing skills. The stuff you read from "reviews" is often of such a poor quality, filled with poor writing techniques that my high school English teacher would have ripped me on. Let alone what kind of quality a "professional" critic should be putting out.

In regards to stuff outside of the "game-ness," I agree to a certain extent. I would personally still like there to be at least more "artistic critique," considering things like aesthetics, themes, narratives, etc (although it doesn't need to take over the entire critique scene). There are enough games that are doing narrative focuses and "indie art" spins that we could use more people exploring that stuff (I'm guilty of a personal bis here though because those are the kinds of games I love the most). Hell, I'd like to see more people critiquing that stuff just to push devs to do more so that we can evolve beyond the garbage writing present in 85% of games. So a better understanding of art history in other mediums (film, TV, literature, painting, etc) would be excellent foundations for that kind of critique.

But more importantly, I'd like to see critics having a better understanding of the art history of their own medium. There's such a huge gaming illiteracy issue among professional critics that it's mindboggling. And yes, before someone jumps on this, there is value in having some "outsider" opinions. But that shouldn't be the majority of voices in the professional critic circles.

I think there should be a balance. Courses should include art theory, journalism, communications, social sciences etc but they should also include introductory courses of informatics, mathematics, logic, game development, electronics etc for students without a mathematical background

 

[britt0n]

Not that controversial but,

I actually enjoy listening to podcasts about games more than actually playing the darn things. I just don't have the time anymore to put hours and hours into a game, so I live vicariously through podcasts.

I also think that the whole industry would be better off if lets plays and YouTube videos were not able to be monitized. Let the professionals be professional and let's the amateurs be amateurs. It frustrates me that the marketing teams now are giving more credence to the youtubers than to traditional media.

Maybe I'm just getting old and jaded. Alas.

 

[TheTux]

FINAL FANTASY XIII is awesome.

Also XIII is much better than XIII-2.

 

[GamerJM]

People who say that the story of The Last of Us is good 'for a game' don't have any idea, what they are talking about.

It may not be the absolute pinnacle of storytelling and characterisation, but it's still better than 90% of most other media.

I don't really agree, but semi-related to this:

I genuinely think that 999 and Virtue's Last Reward have more surprising and interesting plot twists than any movie or book I've experienced. Their writing certainly isn't better than most other media, but their plot twists are honestly my favorite ever.

 

[Blueingreen]

- The Dreamcast has become overrated and probably has the weakest library of any Sega home console apart from the SMS.

I always saw the Dreamcast as a home arcade system rather than a traditional home console, with a few exceptions not that it's a bad thing or anything but I definitely prefer the Genesis library more than anything

 

[Melchiah]

Sega has the best and most diverse games and unmatched soundtrack library, of any other game company.

It might be good for some, who prefer arcade-ish games, but I wouldn't call it diverse. Where are the artsy games, mature story-driven games, simulators, and WRPGs?

 

[VincentMatts]

Kojima is overrated.

 

[LordRaptor]

It might be good for some, who prefer arcade-ish games, but I wouldn't call it diverse. Where are the artsy games, mature story-driven games, simulators, and WRPGs?

???

 

[Wensih]

I meant in the sense that it didn't have the resonance of say a The Road, or Children of Men, nor a twist like I am Legend. It's a pretty standard, derivative, zombie story with very little going for it except decent characters. The Walking Dead is a good comparison because I also don't really have an interest in that.

I'd say it has just as much resonance as The Road and Children of Men.

The Road is a very simple story. It has some decent characters, I guess. See you can wave away anything that's great by writing off where a story excels.

 

[kaioshade]

I am really looking forward to Final Fantasy XV. Ive enjoyed both demos, and love what im seeing of the game during the Gamescom demo.

 

[HeisenbergWW62]

Diablo 2 is the only good Blizzard game

Halo series has a terrible storyline and Master Chief is less interesting than my doorknob

Oblivion is absolute shit

Sunset Overdrive is the worst game Insomniac has ever made

I really like the direction RE7 is going

Edit: oh yeah isn't Bioshock Infinite hated around here? That's my favorite one

 

[Melchiah]

???

Heh, I completely forgot Alien: Isolation. I guess I just thought about their releases when they were a platform holder.

 

[spekkeh]

I'd say it has just as much resonance as The Road and Children of Men.

Then it's still derivative. It should have more or different in order to be 'worth telling'.

The Road is a very simple story. It has some decent characters, I guess. See you can wave away anything that's great by writing off where a story excels.

OK.

 

[Dervius]

Despite issues with the narrative in the second act, I think MGSV (and it's accompaniment GZ) constitute easily the second best MGS game behind Snake Eater.

The game play quality alone makes it vastly superior to most of its forebears.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

People who say that the story of The Last of Us is good 'for a game' don't have any idea, what they are talking about.

It may not be the absolute pinnacle of storytelling and characterisation, but it's still better than 90% of most other media.

People will jump on 90%, but the number isn't wholly unreasonable considering how much garbage is out there. I'm not sure if that's what you were trying to say, but it's quite true in that sense. Like we all probably watch/read/consume the good stuff, but there is a lot of trash on the market.

Small example, whenever I look at the Kindle best sellers in my favorite genres or the most downloaded eBooks from my library, there's some real shit in there. And in comparison, I don't think the story in the game is necessarily amazing (or really too much more than derivative), but The Last of Us is an achievement just for being coherent and competent, which is more than can be said for most games.

(That doesn't mean we should stop trying to achieve more though!)

really? because I've a background in east-asian art history>> I was thinking about making a blog and write about motives in j-rpgs..but I don't know if people would be interested..

If it's well written and well researched stuff I'd sure as hell read it!

I think there should be a balance. Courses should include art theory, journalism, communications, social sciences etc but they should also include introductory courses of informatics, mathematics, logic, game development, electronics etc for students without a mathematical background

I'm down with all of that. I don't know what exactly they need on the "tech/software" side, but they could use some more for sure. It's embarrassing continually seeing technical jargon either misused or just avoided.

Honestly, anything to move us away from this enthusiast press dominated paradigm we live in. I just want us to think harder about games and be more educated about them.

 

[Wensih]

Then it's still derivative. It should have more or different in order to be 'worth telling'.

OK.

A work being derived from past works shouldn't be a negative as most works are derived from classic stories. The Last of Us is derivitative but also has a very high level of quality in design, writing, and environmental art. It shares some similar story beats and themes with the previous two works, but it also incorporates themes of nature reclaiming society and the experiences of Joel and his relationship with Ellie shows a much different picture than the relationship between the man and the boy. It's one rooted in selfishness and not letting go of another person when throughout the game all of his other relationships have failed in one way or another. This isn't something that is touched on much in The Road or Children of Men both of which are driven more by altruism than selfishness.

Edit 1: Basically, telling the same story gives you the ability to focus on different aspects of similar themes, and give the reader/watcher/player new insight and still be thought provoking. If it brings quality and thoughtfulness, it shouldn't matter if it's derived. Most of Bob Dylan's work is derivative from older folk songs, people still love him. Quinton Tarantino copies scenes and music from older classics, his work is still praised. Humans are bad at being wholly original but very good at reimagining foundations.

Edit 2: It's weird that in an industry driven by derivation and sequels, an industry where the most lauded games are derived from extremely established formulas, the problem with The Last of Us is that it's a derivation of The Road and Children of Men.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Sunset Overdrive is the worst game Insomniac has ever made

You'd take Disruptor over Sunset Overdrive? I need a yes or no.

 

[Godcannon]

No Man's Sky is Game of the Year.


EDIT: THIS COMMENT WAS PREMATURE AND I WAS WRROOOOOOOOONNNGGGG.

FLAMING MYSELF.