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[PixyJunket]

I've never understood why people wax fantastic about Rare, they made some clever NES games and then went on to water down the platforming genre for a decade.

That said, they did make a decent number of rather unique 360 titles early on. Kameo was almost good, a little rough around the edges (a sequel might have been great, actually) but at least it was not one of their "Collect 100 Yellow Coins, 200 Blue Moons and 6,000 Red Meows" platformers. Viva Pinata had a surprising amount of depth for what appeared to be a kids game and they made a lego game before Minecraft was a thing with Nuts and Bolts.

But none of those really caught on (sadly).

Kinect Sports did well (or did it?), so I guess they had to stick with it.

 

[Mondy]

Man, Urchin had so much potential.

 

[Omega]

I'm still mad we're never going to get Kameo 2.

I always wanted a Kameo 2 and Halo Wars 2.

 

[StoOgE]

Some of these look like they never got beyond concept art/pitch phase.

I'm guessing most studios have a line of games that never lifted off for whatever reason.

 

[Hero of Legend]

That doesn't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon from what Grant has said

Yeah I know. He said it was due to the team being busy with other things.

Also, I was considering a thread where we'd try to find how many of the Donkey Kong Racing team left and how a hypothetical Wii U revival would look. Looking through the Sabreman stuff, you can clearly see the roots. Hell it's accurate saying the SFA team did it, look at the art, it's EXACTLY the same, it's DK in SFA's art style.

Funny I toyed with the idea of the other end, where Dinosaur Planet could come into DK in DK's style. Tricky would work of course ala DKR.

 

[Iorv3th]

While Phil says he does not force Rare to make kinect games, couldn't that just mean someone else does?

 

[Wickerbasket]

Some of those games sound great; it's so disappointing to look at what's become of Rare.

Rare used to be one of my favourite developers; now they're only a husk of their former self.

 

[maxcriden]

I've never understood why people wax fantastic about Rare, they made some clever NES games and then went on to water down the platforming genre for a decade.

That said, they did make a decent number of rather unique 360 titles early on. Kameo was almost good, a little rough around the edges (a sequel might have been great, actually) but at least it was not one of their "Collect 100 Yellow Coins, 200 Blue Moons and 6,000 Red Meows" platformers. Viva Pinata had a surprising amount of depth for what appeared to be a kids game and they made a lego game before Minecraft was a thing with Nuts and Bolts.

But none of those really caught on (sadly).

Kinect Sports did well (or did it?), so I guess they had to stick with it.

The DKC series and Diddy Kong Racing were pretty amazing. The collect-a-thons were very fun and fresh when they first debuted, particularly the first Banjo. I agree things started to get stale with DK 64 and Banjo-Tooie, but back when the first Banjo came out, it was still a very fresh and new feeling to explore a 3D world like that, and one that was at least as expansive as Mario 64, so I think it was a pretty legit game for its time. It doesn't hold up terrifically now, IMO, but there's still some greatness to it, and the aesthetics and music are really noteworthy I think. I still get the overworld theme stuck in my head sometimes.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Man, looking at the Quest stuff again, this was going to be a magnum opus as MMO/Space Shooters were NOT a GC norm at all (not counting MP).

Rare had a solid GC line-up then got fucked:

Grabbed by the Ghoulies (rumored to have been a different game on the GC)

Perfect Dark (forget the actual name, screens exist).

Donkey Kong Racing (became Sabreman Stampede, canned)

Banjo (aside from the "etch demo", I don't know if anything concrete existed)

Kameo (gameplay exists, looked really early, using N64-esc assets even, think it originated as an N64 game)

Quest (their top secret game, became Cascade, canned)

Just in their first year or two these were already in the works, what the FUCK.

 

[Gintoki313]

That is a ton of cancelled games. Out of all of them I think I would have been most interested in Ordinary Joe, Kameo 2, and Perfect Dark Zero.

I don't know who thought of the name for "Ordinary Joe" but they deserve a medal. That would have been a cool survival horror game title.

 

[PixyJunket]

While Phil says he does not force Rare to make kinect games, couldn't that just mean someone else does?

Sure.

But it could also mean that Kinect Sports was the first thing they did for Microsoft that worked, so they just kept at it (for a comparison, look at how much varied output Pygnosis had before Wipeout and then what they did after Wipeout). Unfortunately, a lot of developers just get stuck into something once they finally find something that sells well.

I know it's easy to point a finger at MS, but Rare's first several titles with them really seemed to indicate that they were given some level of creative freedom.

 

[Sponge]

There's a really cool render in the Keynote video for Fast and the Furriest.

h

It looks just like Tiptup did in Diddy Kong Racing.

 

[megalowho]

Illuminating thread. The neutering of Rare's creative spark over time has been a real shame, and I don't blame any former employees for moving on considering how many interesting ideas were passed over. Kinect Sports at least appears to have been a financial success, but to tell the media you don't force anything upon Rare when the list of non-Kinect and Avatar casualties is this long feels more than a bit disingenuous.

 

[jay]

Sure.

But it could also mean that Kinect Sports was the first thing they did for Microsoft that worked, so they just kept at it (for a comparison, look at how much varied output Pygnosis had before Wipeout and then what they did after Wipeout). Unfortunately, a lot of developers just get stuck into something once they finally find something that sells well.

I know it's easy to point a finger at MS, but Rare's first several titles with them really seemed to indicate that they were given some level of creative freedom.

Thanks for reminding me I'm mad at Sony for ruining Psygnosis.

 

[yankeehater]

Illuminating thread. The neutering of Rare's creative spark over time has been a real shame, and I don't blame any former employees for moving on considering how many interesting ideas were passed over. Kinect Sports at least appears to have been a financial success, but to tell the media you don't force anything upon Rare when the list of non-Kinect and Avatar casualties is this long feels more than a bit disingenuous.

How many of those cancellations happened while Phil was in charge?

 

[SAB CA]

I really liked what I played of Nuts and Bolts, but I never got far, as I still had an SD TV at the time, and the text was one of the most annoying things I had ever seen. (Dead Rising's was better!). I keep thinking I should go back to it; I liked it for trying to be innovative, and more than simply a collect-a-thon. (I have very little love for pure collect-a-thon games.)

I don't know if he would have liked that but that sounds amazing to me!

It always seems like the natural extension to me "Can't get greenlit for a full retail title? Make it digital! You're probably end up with a more focused game, anyway!"

Games like the XBLA Motocross Madness and Joyride Turbo seem like the perfect archetypes for Rare to sneak in a Kart racer, and the engine developed for Banjo N&B's seems like the perfect thing to recycle into secondary projects, like Capcom did with DR2's engine for their separate-but-connected downloadable releases.

A big-scale Jetforce Gemini sequel for XBLA with the kind of scope of recent $15~$20 Shooters like the Farcry Blood Dragon, Call of Juarez Gunslinger, Alien Rage, Scourge, and Crimson Dragon would be something I could instantly jump behind, especially if it kept that "Nintendo Mature" feel to it (There's place for more FPS/TPS out there than M-Rated Sailor's Mouth Hardcore Marines...)

Rare X Twisted Pixel also seems like it'd be a good match, as they both have some overwhelming weaknesses that I think could be normalized if they both went at a project with their unique strengths... allowing their true quality to shine through.

 

[Diddy Kong]

These threads always make me sad. I wish we could have a new Diddy Kong Racing, Perfect Dark, Conker, and Banjo-Threeie on Wii-U. All those old great titles on VC. Banjo-Kazooie and Joanna Dark in Smash.

feels bad man

 

[IOnEI Falcon]

Man, looking at the Quest stuff again, this was going to be a magnum opus as MMO/Space Shooters were NOT a GC norm at all (not counting MP).

Rare had a solid GC line-up then got fucked:

Grabbed by the Ghoulies (rumored to have been a different game on the GC)

Perfect Dark (forget the actual name, screens exist).

Donkey Kong Racing (became Sabreman Stampede, canned)

Banjo (aside from the "etch demo", I don't know if anything concrete existed)

Kameo (gameplay exists, looked really early, using N64-esc assets even, think it originated as an N64 game)

Quest (their top secret game, became Cascade, canned)

Just in their first year or two these were already in the works, what the FUCK.

Yeah insane. There was some interview with a Nintendo executive blaming Rare for the lack of good games on the Gamecube...

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

A lot of these concepts sound interesting, but weren't most of them cancelled before Kinect even existed.

Rare did get to put out a lot of games on Xbox/360 that were not Kinect related. And technically speaking Rare has only released 1 Kinect title so far. Kinect Sports 2 was mostly made by Big Park wasn't it?


Grabbed by the Ghoulies Beat 'em up Xbox Microsoft Game Studios 2003
Conker: Live & Reloaded Action Xbox Microsoft Game Studios 2005
Kameo: Elements of Power Action-adventure Xbox 360 Microsoft Game Studios 2005
Perfect Dark Zero First-person shooter Xbox 360 Microsoft Game Studios 2005
Viva Piñata Life simulation Xbox 360 Microsoft Game Studios 2006
Jetpac Refuelled Shooter Xbox 360 (Xbox Live Arcade) Microsoft Game Studios 2007
Viva Piñata: Trouble in Paradise Life simulation Xbox 360 Microsoft Game Studios 2008
Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts Platform Xbox 360 Microsoft Game Studios 2008
Kinect Sports Sports Xbox 360 Microsoft Game Studios 2010
Kinect Sports Rivals Sports Xbox One Microsoft Studios 2014

Kinect Sports was really the only hit game series they've had in the past decade so sequels are understandable. I'd like to see more from them though.

They also have a ton of mobile games under their belt in the past decade. Rare's talents might work well making games for Windows 8 and Windows Phone. Something like Viva Pinata, Sabreman or Banjo might find more success on tablets/phones/XBLA than on an Xbox hardcore gaming platform retailing for $60.

 

[Crisco]

Christ, Rare could have been their own personal Nintendo EAD but instead they turned them into Zynga.

 

[uncledonnie]

A lot of these concepts sound interesting, but weren't most of them cancelled before Kinect even existed.

Rare did get to put out a lot of games on Xbox/360 that were not Kinect related. And technically speaking Rare has only released 1 Kinect title so far. Kinect Sports 2 was mostly made by Big Park wasn't it?

This gets repeated on every page but those with an axe to grind ignore it.

 

[Alo81]

I'm just going to continue to cry and hope for my Nuts & Bolts sequel.

 

[megalowho]

How many of those cancellations happened while Phil was in charge?

It appears to be a systemic thing with Microsoft Games leadership, considering how many years the OP's titles span. Phil may not be the big bad guy, but he will certainly spin their current situation to the media while sweeping stuff like this conveniently under the rug.

 

[PixyJunket]

Illuminating thread.

Not really, all it's showing is a lot of concepts, most studios and artists have TONS of this stuff sitting around.

We don't know how many made it past simple sketches and ideas or were even passed by Microsoft.

For reference, here's a list of what they've released with Microsoft (excluding GBA/DS stuff).

Grabbed by the Ghoulies
Conker: Live & Reloaded
Kameo: Elements of Power
Perfect Dark Zero
Viva Piñata
Jetpac Refuelled
Viva Piñata: Trouble in Paradise
Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts

Kinect Sports
Kinect Sports: Season Two (co-developed with Big Games)
Kinect Sports Rivals

I can understand being frustrated that they've done three Kinect games in a row, but the eight before that run a pretty wide range.

 

[daftstar]

Aww man I hope David Wise and Grant Kirkhope get more work, they're two of the best VG composers out there. Kirkhope's Perfect Dark soundtrack is phenomenal and Wise is just legendary.

This is so sad seeing as I grew up with Rare :*(

Fuck now I'm getting a nostalgia attack *goes to youtube for their music*

 

[eXistor]

It hurts to see this...

 

[Conor 419]

Wow god damn there was some startling work going on at Rare, classic incompetent Microsoft somehow managing to destroy some of the industry's greatest talent.

 

[Darksol]

That's a whole lot of games I'd rather play than Kinect Sports.

 

[Sponge]

Then, people would be complaining that Nintendo was making Rare make Wii Sports Carnival or whatever. All these games sound good, but would any of them sell as much as all of the Kinect games they've made?

Rare would more than likely had been doing exactly what they were doing when Nintendo worked with them.

 

[PixyJunket]

This gets repeated on every page but those with an axe to grind ignore it.

It's a rather astounding behavior study, in a way.

I also didn't know they weren't fully responsible for Kinect Sport 2, so that makes this list even more interesting.

Grabbed by the Ghoulies
Conker: Live & Reloaded
Kameo: Elements of Power
Perfect Dark Zero
Viva Piñata
Jetpac Refuelled
Viva Piñata: Trouble in Paradise
Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts

Kinect Sports
Kinect Sports Rivals

 

[LilWayneSuckz]

I would very much so want to play Banjo Karting

 

[JimmyRustler]

Sad thead.... Way to go Microsoft....

 

[megalowho]

I can understand being frustrated that they've done three Kinect games in a row, but the eight before that run a pretty wide range.

The change in direction from their early 360 games to Avatar work followed up by a Wii Sports clone is hard to justify as a period of creative freedom in my eyes. It's not something that happened overnight sure, but all the important folks that have left the studio over the years is rather telling.

 

[Hindle]

I hate the way MS treated Rare, and I'd love it if they just sold all of thier IPs. Instead, they just keep hold of them and don't do anything with them. It's bullshit.

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

Rare would more than likely had been doing exactly what they were doing when Nintendo worked with them.

Copying successful 1st party games?

Wii Sports clone.
Wii Fit clone.
Nintendogs clone.
Pikmin clone.
Smash Bros clone.

Nintendo copying continued under MGS. Ghoulies was inspired by Luigi's Mansion, Viva Pinata inspired by Pikmin/Pokemon, Kinect Sports by Wii Sports.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Look at that! Ghoulies GC footage from E3 2001!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uxj_j4wokw

 

[Sponge]

Copying successful 1st party games?

Wii Sports clone.
Wii Fit clone.
Nintendogs clone.
Pikmin clone.
Smash Bros clone.

...Probably more Banjo, Donkey Kong, Perfect Dark and Conker? Nintendo would have handled Wii Sports. Why would they do that?

In fact at Spaceworld 2001 it was announced Rare were making Perfect Dark Zero, Kameo and Donkey Kong Racing. Rare wasn't always copying Wii Sports.

We would have gotten Banjo in Smash, actually.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

yes, phil spencer was full of shit.

 

[Heyt]

A lot of these concepts sound interesting, but weren't most of them cancelled before Kinect even existed.

They required an investment Microsoft was not willing to make because Rare makes games that barely hit XBOX target audience. They did not buy Rare because they wanted the to make games for their box. They wanted reduce Nintendo's threat. They won't spend much money on Rare because for them is wasted money. It was never the point.

 

[The Horror the horror]

Copying successful 1st party games?

Wii Sports clone.
Wii Fit clone.
Nintendogs clone.
Pikmin clone.
Smash Bros clone.

Nintendo copying continued under MGS. Ghoulies was inspired by Luigi's Mansion, Viva Pinata inspired by Pikmin, Kinect Sports by Wii Sports.

From what Nintendo game were Goldeneye and PD cloned?

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

And every last one of them would have flopped.

Now that smaller downloadable titles are a thing, maybe Rare can put out these types of games without too much worry.

 

[Hindle]

yes, phil spencer was full of shit.

Someone should show all of these cool ideas to Phil via twitter, I'd like an explanation as to why they were cancelled.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Yep. No one is stopping them from pitching their ideas, but some how they only end up making avatars and Wii Sports knock-offs for Kinect.

Spencer is so full of shit.

 

[Edwards_Omatic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfaN267lI_Y

I'd never seen that before... Utterly brilliant.

 

[Dv8thwonder]

So is it safe to say that Nuts & Bolts is the greatest bait and switch of this or any other generation?

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

They required an investment Microsoft was not willing to make because Rare makes games that barely hit XBOX target audience. They did not buy Rare because they wanted the to make games for their box. They wanted reduce Nintendo's threat. They won't spend much money on Rare because for them is wasted money. It was never the point.

I think Microsoft tried very hard with Rare. They even created an entire Saturday morning cartoon series for Viva Pinata to try to sell that game.

Nintendo also seemed to want to get rid of Rare because they were a problem studio that was not outputting much. Perhaps Nintendo felt it was better to invest in new studios like Retro.

 

[satriales]

I don't force Rare to do anything. Like, forcing a studio to do something is a very short-term ambition as the head of studios because, in the end, people will vote with their feet, and they'll just go work somewhere else.

Isn't that exactly what happened?

 

[Coolwhip]

These threads always make me sad. I wish we could have a new Diddy Kong Racing, Perfect Dark, Conker, and Banjo-Threeie on Wii-U. All those old great titles on VC. Banjo-Kazooie and Joanna Dark in Smash.

feels bad man

Yep, feels really bad.

 

[Sponge]

Nintendo also seemed to want to get rid of Rare because they were a problem studio that was not outputting much. Perhaps Nintendo felt it was better to invest in new studios like Retro.

It actually had more to do with Nintendo not wanting to buy Rare for as much as they wanted.

 

[Shiggy]

CD2 is Crackdown 2, that was in development by Rare.

But yeah, all prototypes are pre-Kinect. Since then most of the old employees have left anyway, the studios has become smaller. So why bother with non-Kinect games when your team does not have any experience with traditional games but is a first class studio when it comes to Knect?

And well, even their Kinect games get cancelled. They worked on some Kinect prototypes in more traditional genres. In the end, management decided to go for KS3. Just as with MGS Vancouver, a lot of ideas got shot down.