you realize this is silly, right?
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Reggie: AM2R killed because it was a commercial product without a charge
- Thread starter benny_a
- Start date
you realize this is silly, right?
And despite that, LoS1 ended up being a very good idea and LoS2 had some incredible elements combined (art direction, action gameplay, music) mixed with very poor direction and management. There's extremely good talent at that studio.
By giving it to MercurySteam yes, we agree
Ah yes, they killed it with the highest selling game in the series.
You're delusional if you think if it was MercurySteam.
Magicpaint
Member
Yeah. It's an amazing effort when you realise that it's essentially one fan's hard labour over 10 years but the new pixel art is quite amateurish (I really disagree that it looks better aesthetically than Samus Returns) and gameplay wise it doesn't really offer much new, and what's new doesn't seem that great. I admit I haven't played it though but I watched a playthrough of it on Youtube and I definitely prefer what I've seen of Samus Returns. The main takeaway for me is that Samus Returns goes beyond just being a remake of Metroid II and feels like a brand new game in the way Zero Mission felt, but it seems to go even further with brand new abilities and mechanics not seen in any 2D Metroid. It feels like a real evolution of the 2D formula which hasn't gone much further than Super Metroid.
By giving it to MercurySteam yes, we agree
Anyway, watch AM2R be way better than whatever they barf out
Metroid Samus Returns is being supervised by Nintendo though. There is a clear standard with 2D Metroid that this game must meet.
Shifty
Member
One of the rare times I can't step back and say "god damn, Reggie is a master of his craft".
So it was threatening your commercial product. Saying so would have been the simplest approach.
And myself, I feel like the C&D was heavy-handed. Talking to the guy and asking him to delay a while so as not to threaten M:SR, while disappointing for fans of AM2R, would have been a less destructive solution than straight up making it illegal for him to distribute.
So it was threatening your commercial product. Saying so would have been the simplest approach.
And myself, I feel like the C&D was heavy-handed. Talking to the guy and asking him to delay a while so as not to threaten M:SR, while disappointing for fans of AM2R, would have been a less destructive solution than straight up making it illegal for him to distribute.
TheDinoman
Member
For the record, there's four noteworthy Metroid veterans involved with Samus Returns:
Outside of the melee counter mechanic, it seems like MercurySteam's just doing mostly the coding/programming while the actual direction and level design is coming from Nintendo.
- Yoshio Sakamoto (producer)
- Takehiko Hosokawa (director/level designer)
- Kenji Yamamoto (composer)
- Minako Hamano (composer)
Outside of the melee counter mechanic, it seems like MercurySteam's just doing mostly the coding/programming while the actual direction and level design is coming from Nintendo.
And in that scenario, DrM64 wouldn't have been able to say anything about why AM2R would be suddenly going on hiatus (since Nintendo clearly wasn't wanting to announce SR yet), so we'd have instead spent the past year with people still whining about Nintendo killing AM2R, but even harder because it wouldn't have been released.
Have a Nice Day
Member
I don't think Reggie should've commented on the AM2R situation at all and moved on, you will always look like an asshat if you target a cease and desist order to shut down a free, fan-made project.
Professor Renegade
Banned
A free game, developed for free on one guy's own free time, released for free with no price tags...
How exactly is that monotization, Reggie?
How exactly is that monotization, Reggie?
I mean, it's been explained a couple dozen times in this thread that a free game can theoretically compete with the game Nintendo's trying to sell.
I give Nintendo a lot of slack with the AM2R situation. They aren't stupid, they could've cease and desisted the game at any point during its development but they waited until it was out to cover their ass legally, knowing that once it was out it would always be available in some form on the internet.
Reggie's wording is real odd, but the intention seems pretty clear: AM2R and fan games like it (that is, games which emulate a commercial product) pose a drect threat not only to Nintendo's sale of those commercial products, but their retaining of the IP as well.
Like others have said, it's not some sort of weird conspiracy of Nintendo getting scared or whatever because of some fan game. That's a pretty ludicrous idea, and if you truly believe that, you're letting your anger over AM2R's C&D get to your head.
Not only is Nintendo selling Metroid II on the VC, they're also working on a remake of their own, and this fan game threatens the sales of both by being free. Sure, Nintendo didn't C&D the game until it was finished, but that's very likely due to Nintendo themselves not knowing of the project until it was finished, since the finished product did get a lot of enthusiast publicity after release.
Nintendo's been pretty lenient with ROM hacks and the like in the past. Maybe not as much as SEGA, but no one else in the industry really is. But Nintendo has made the line pretty clear recently, and that line is with fan recreations of available products. Nintendo also shut down games like Zelda Maker and the Mario 64 Unity remake, and those barely got off the ground prior to getting taken down. So AM2R being taken down makes perfect sense, as disappointing as it is.
Like others have said, it's not some sort of weird conspiracy of Nintendo getting scared or whatever because of some fan game. That's a pretty ludicrous idea, and if you truly believe that, you're letting your anger over AM2R's C&D get to your head.
Not only is Nintendo selling Metroid II on the VC, they're also working on a remake of their own, and this fan game threatens the sales of both by being free. Sure, Nintendo didn't C&D the game until it was finished, but that's very likely due to Nintendo themselves not knowing of the project until it was finished, since the finished product did get a lot of enthusiast publicity after release.
Nintendo's been pretty lenient with ROM hacks and the like in the past. Maybe not as much as SEGA, but no one else in the industry really is. But Nintendo has made the line pretty clear recently, and that line is with fan recreations of available products. Nintendo also shut down games like Zelda Maker and the Mario 64 Unity remake, and those barely got off the ground prior to getting taken down. So AM2R being taken down makes perfect sense, as disappointing as it is.
Watch people not buy Samus Returns because "Mercury Steam sucks" "No Sprites" "AM2R is better even though i have not played Samus Returns yet."
Metroid fans will bury their beloved franchise themselves. I'm surprised there isn't a petition to cancel Samus Returns because of AM2R and Sakamoto's involvement.
Truly the worst fanbase.
Metroid fans will bury their beloved franchise themselves. I'm surprised there isn't a petition to cancel Samus Returns because of AM2R and Sakamoto's involvement.
Truly the worst fanbase.
Professor Renegade
Banned
Granted, but fans would buy Samus Returns anyway. As good as AM2R is, the thirst for an official remake is still real and now that it's coming out people are gonna buy it even if they've already played AM2R.
Skittzo0413
Member
You do awesome work.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Samus Returns trailer was well-received and impressions were positive. Prime 4 teaser made people hit the ceiling.
This "Metroid fans are the worst/toxic fanbase" is complete bullshit. It's a franchise with a once golden reputation ruined by an average game with ridiculous story in 2010, a spinoff that no one asked for 6 years later and a good fanmade game that Nintendo (right or wrong) shut down. Fans were understandably frustrated.
By giving it to MercurySteam yes, we agree
Anyway, watch AM2R be way better than whatever they barf out
You should calm down I reckon.
AM2R is awesome but Samus Returns looks like a solid game and a good evolution for the series. AM2R is a great fan game, but all it does is reuse previous mechanics and bosses (only a couple are original) following the MII:RoS layout almost religiously, so let's not now pretend it is the ultimate Metroid game. I'm glad it came out, I played it and I enjoyed it, but that's it.
MikeE21286
Member
Basically it was of such quality that it was a commercial product to them.
And obviously they had their own game in the works. That too...
And obviously they had their own game in the works. That too...
SporeCrawler
Member
this thread is the ultimate proof that nintendo should bury the franchise. metroid fans are toxic and dont deserve any new titles.
they never buy the games (look at the pisspoor sales; im amazed nintendo still bothers), they generally are overly critical (i cant remember one game that got universal praise except super metroid. first prime got flack for too many scans and being first person, echoes got flack for being too hard and complicated, corruption got flack for being too streamlined, other m got flack because of the story etc. etc.) and dont appreciate the franchise at all (if anything preferring a fangame over the real deal is ultimate proof).
the worst thing however is that they shit on other franchises as well just because they think its hindering a new metroid game. the reaction of some metroid fans towards tropical freeze was unforgiveable.
because metroid fans think they own the franchise and nintendo is just a "workbench" that they can easily replace by a random guy. its the most shitty, vile "fan"base there is.
its irrelevant its using the metroid name and assets which are protected IP of nintendo. those are not free to use, deal with it.
SporeCrawler
Member
yeah lets remove intellectual property, the writers, musicians, programmers etc. i the world will rejoice.
TheDinoman
Member
The backlash wasn't necessarily just about Metroid, people were just disappointed in general that Retro wasn't working on a big, meaty ambitious game like Xenoblade X aimed towards the west. The Wii U already had a lot of 2D platformers at that time, so people were hoping that Retro would spice up its lineup with something unique, though in the end, they ended up getting another 2D platformer, although it was an amazing game in of itself.
People were just kinda hoping for Retro to create Nintendo's answer to stuff like The Witcher and Uncharted, it wasn't only Metroid people were clamoring for. Even after Prime 4 was announced, I still see people wanting Retro to not work on DKC anymore.
SporeCrawler
Member
I wonder if nintendo didnt do the developers a favor of sorts by not sending a cease and desist until the game was done and released into the wild. That way they maintain the precedent of protecting their IP while still allowing a labor of love to be completed. Kind of explains the developer's seeming shortage of hard feelings. Of course reggie cant articulate that arrangement so he instead just gives some baffling answer that masterfully distracts us from the reality.
Teletraan1
Banned
I wonder how much it would have cost Nintendo to buy AM2R or employ its creator VS contracting a kinda shitty dev to churn out their own probably inferior version. The positive PR alone would have been worth it. It was the kind of stuff that Valve did when they were cool.
To be fair, at the time DKCTF was announced, Mario Bros U was the only major 2D platformer of note that was actually out. Rayman had been delayed until later that year and was no longer an exclusive, Yoshi's Woolly World had only been shown off in brief, and Kirby wouldn't even be shown off until the next year. Otherwise, you had some indie 2D platformers, but it was hardly something the system was oversaturated with as of E3 2013.
By giving it to MercurySteam yes, we agree
Anyway, watch AM2R be way better than whatever they barf out
Man, Mercury Steam only did what Konami wanted them to do. Konami had a new awful vision for what they wanted Castlevania to be and followed through with it in all of their titles. Mercury Steam's Castlevania is like those games based on a movie of a game.
With Samus Returns we have Nintendo giving the direction. Nintendo is even designing the game's maps in-house with the same staff member who designed Fusion and Zero Mission's maps.
Let's not forget the the importance of direction. GAF golden child Retro Studios is a talented team, but before they finished Prime they were struggling with direction and needed Nintendo to take a more involved role with them. Nintendo made them drop everything they were making and told them to make Metroid, and when that was having trouble Miyamoto and Tanabe stepped in to give the game further direction.
And there are examples where Nintendo didn't give enough direction. Other M, for example, was intended to be a traditional 2D Metroid much like this game by Sakamoto, but Team Ninja pushed for it to be a 3D title and Sakamoto relented.
This title looks like Nintendo is giving it good direction. Everything looks great so far.
For a clear recent example of satiation, look no further than New Super Mario Bros. U. NSMB2 released just a few months earlier and was more accessible at a lower price tag and on a system more people already owned. Despite NSMBU being amazing, NSMB2 sold twice as much and was a key excuse people used for not biting on NSMBU.
How was it heavy handed? It was actually a smart move by Nintendo, they waited till AM2R was released before issuing the C&D. They could have issued it any time prior, ruining ten years of hard work. Instead, they allowed it to be released. They aren't stupid, they know that once it's on the internet, it's accessible forever. They were actually very lenient in protecting their IP in this case.
I love the Mecury Steam killed Castlevania narrative, as it ignores the fact that Lords of Shadow 1 is the best selling Castlevania game, and it's not like it can be argued that Mirror of Fate and LoS2 killed the franchise due to being poorly received. The franchise survived games that were worse than those two efforts.
"Why didn't they just sign a contract with the AM2R guy and sell the game?" is a common referain, but it's nto anywhere near that simple. To quote something I read on another forum from a professional game developer:
It's about as silly as Nintendo singling out this fan game out of dozens of similar projects and drawing more attention to it in the process. Nintendo had close to a decade to nip this in the bud and it's only recently that they perceived something in the quality and/or prominence of AM2R that they felt it threatened their ownership of the Metroid brand beyond it simply being another unauthorized fan game. I'd say Nintendo were definitely worried AM2R would steal some of their thunder.
Nope, they limit the monetisation, which is what pisses youtubers off since they get less money. People can stream/post as many videos of Nintendo games as their heart desires.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Did you play it? It is a damn fine effort, even with the feeling of "cheapness" as you say.
That's how it was for Other M too.
BurritoBushido
Member
I feel like OP missed an important part where he ACTUALLY answers the question (though he does link it)
This sounds like that they didn't like such a powerful fan game taking control of the Metroid franchise, for the reason of what actually happened. If AM2R didn't exist more people would have eaten up MSR. But now that they have seen AM2R, it has wrested control of mind share on what Nintendo should do with the Metroid IP because they've seen a real, tangible alternative to Nintendo's offering.
This sounds like that they didn't like such a powerful fan game taking control of the Metroid franchise, for the reason of what actually happened. If AM2R didn't exist more people would have eaten up MSR. But now that they have seen AM2R, it has wrested control of mind share on what Nintendo should do with the Metroid IP because they've seen a real, tangible alternative to Nintendo's offering.
I imagine it would be a mess because of all the bits and pieces from other Metroid games like Fusion, Zero Mission and the like strewn around, and all the art and music that were made by other people. As well as the fact a lot of the music is remixed from official games.
I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I know anything about copyright law but I sincerely doubt it's as simple as people like you say it is.
psychowave
Member
Maybe hold off on judging the game until it comes out?
Though it doesn't matter, it seems some of you have already decided that AM2R is better than SR and won't change your opinion even if SR ends up being the best Metroid game ever made.
Could you PLEASE stop the stupid posts shitting on Samus Returns? Every bit of information about it has been positive, even the creator of AM2R is happy about the remake and you keep on this stupid crusade against Mercury Steam and Sakamoto.
Nintendo is the one to provide the games, if you want more Metroid be sure to spend $40 on it, that is of course, ig ypu want the franchise to have a Future.
The game is worth it, I've seen a lot of people playing it, this is what we have been waiting for guys, lets not fuck this up
Nintendo is the one to provide the games, if you want more Metroid be sure to spend $40 on it, that is of course, ig ypu want the franchise to have a Future.
The game is worth it, I've seen a lot of people playing it, this is what we have been waiting for guys, lets not fuck this up
Mister Wolf
Member
Why do they need him to guide Metroid when they already have the people who created it in the first place.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
It's unbelievable how many people fail to grasp this.
Also this. I LOVED AM2R and am glad it exists (I'll have three unique versions of the best game in the original trilogy to play!) but Nintendo does not need his help to make a new Metroid game. He used THEIR OWN DESIGN as a basis for his game.
Mister Wolf
Member
This is Nintendo's reward for being nice enough to let the dude finish the project.
I didn't call the entire Fire Emblem fanbase cunts when some fans harassed members of NoA's localization team. Maybe I should have, since saying things like that is now obviously normal and accepted.
What a piece of shit post.
Rogue Agent
Banned
I'm not a fan of Samus Returns' art-style but the impressions have made me hopeful.
Now that the core Metroid has returned, I'll gladly buy it for support, even though I won't be able to play it due to it being 3DS.
Now that the core Metroid has returned, I'll gladly buy it for support, even though I won't be able to play it due to it being 3DS.
Mister Wolf
Member
I feel sad selling my 3DS XL to Gamestop. Wish would've knew.
And going back to the biggest example of "fans" getting to work on the official thing, Taxman and company didn't just get tapped out of the blue to work on Sonic Mania. It took looking at an actual pitch showing off an engine to convince them that there was something worth devleoping there and then getting saddled with just porting over existing games to a new modern engine until they were able to build up a relationship enough to where Sega allowed for them to work on new content in Sonic 2, and then again to where Sega was willing to let them make a "new" major commercial game.
If the company that people keep parading around as the example of "how to handle fan games" works relatively slowly like that, why the hell would anybody expect Nintendo to be even more generous and just suddenly give DoctorM64 the reigns to the Metroid series when he has significantly less to offer them than what Taxman had when he and Sega began their professional relationship? Even under the best conditions, a similar relationship would start with Nintendo working with DoctorM64 to use his experience to make modern ports of Super Metroid and/or GBA games that don't rely on emulation. And that's kinda bungled by how AM2R is built on gamemaker
Rogue Agent
Banned
Yeah, I wasn't expecting a 3DS Metroid announcement at all. In fact, after Prime 4, I wasn't expecting a 2D Metroid at all.
Arent there a lot of very good Metroid clones out there that are not using Nintendos IP, a lot of them indie games making good money. If you want to make a game make your game, its always a risk if your using someones else IP. Even the AM2R guy was ok with Nintendo, the game was done and people downloaded it and played it.
FZeroRacer
Neo Member
Could you PLEASE stop the stupid posts shitting on Samus Returns? Every bit of information about it has been positive, even the creator of AM2R is happy about the remake and you keep on this stupid crusade against Mercury Steam and Sakamoto.
Nintendo is the one to provide the games, if you want more Metroid be sure to spend $40 on it, that is of course, ig ypu want the franchise to have a Future.
The game is worth it, I've seen a lot of people playing it, this is what we have been waiting for guys, lets not fuck this up
The reason why the crusade exists in the first place is because Nintendo managed to fuck up hard with Other M and Federation Force. So of course people are going to be overly negative until the game comes out and has been proven to actually be a decent swing away from the current trend. The idea that fans should just gobble up every game released in hopes of a series having a future is silly; it should be the developer that has to prove themselves again.
Unfortunately it might be likely that Samus Returns will sell worse even if it does turn out to be good considering the two games prior.
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