• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Rumor mill - New Xbox Devkits in Korea

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
I mean that is even more surprising as at this point (~2 years out) the silicon would pretty much be done and they've been working on it 3/4 years yet we've heard nothing until now. Also they'd be committed to tech from a couple of years ago and that could date very quickly. Can we expect a big event from MS to at least announce this HW and a overview of performance/specs/vision?
No idea where they are in this process or how/when they will give us a blowout on it.

I bet money if they are on track for this device we will get some pretty big leaks a month or so before the PS5 Pro launches though.

At one point Kepler even felt the same about a nextbox launching early

38aY5SS.png
Pw3APr6.png
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Well anything is possible I guess. If that devkit is the handheld then wouldn't that suggest that product is very imminent? I mean looking at MS devkit history they tend to come out 6 months or less from a product launch.

Seems crazy they'd be able to keep it under wraps so completely to this point!
 
Most likely an ALPHA kit, i remember before xbox360 was released, developers had alpha, beta and final SDK's. I don't think MS needs to do much, cause its same OS for UI. Specs would def be an upgrade compared to Series X but not quite on par for final release. Hoping for an awesome 9-9-99 Dreamcast like launch with 12 brand new games of each genre, 4k 60hz-120hz or even 8k 60hz with no dips + raytracing ready to go

The UI could probably due with some changes to make it feel "new", though. That has been a major complaint with the Series consoles.

Specs will be interesting, because I am genuinely starting to think this new "system" is going to be a platform based around a semi-custom blueprint spec with scalability (maybe certain pre-approved upclock/downclock configs) and modularity (specific upgradable & swappable components on manufacturer & user sides). But I guess in terms of some baseline stuff that could be there, you know the stuff people seem obsessed about:

-TF: Probably a tiny bit higher than 3090 in single-issue. So between 35 TF - 40 TF single-issue mode​
-RAM: Mix of DDR5 system memory & GDDR7 for the GPU. System memory upgradable. GPU would probably need at least 1 TB/s bandwidth​
-GPU: Non-zero chance it could be its own chip separate from CPU. Low-profile. Maybe upgradable based on model type​

Those are specs & design I'd prefer to see because that leans into what I think would be best for MS in gaming hardware going forward. There's subtext here you can pick up on if you read between the lines.

Interesting if true. Sounds like the Xbox 360 tactic where they release their new box a year ahead of their competitor.

Thing is though, what kind of games will you have for a 2026 launch? It will be future games entering the cross-gen phase with one new-gen Console in that space, right?

I don't imagine most devs are ready for next-gen in 2026, so I'm wondering what is there to gain there. Now if you are saying you have 1st party next-gen games ready to go in Holiday 2026, then I could see them getting that head start.

My gut of guts wants to think this isn't going to be a "console" the way we normally think of them, it'll be something different. Not a streaming device, tho it'll be capable of that just like any console today is, at least.

If it's what I'm thinking it'll be, there'd be no need to worry about devs "being ready", or about stuff like cross-gen effect etc. Though I think they will have some new 1P games to coincide with this...platform's....launch.

Because well, I've already shared why I feel another "traditional" console is probably a dead-end for Microsoft in gaming. But that doesn't mean they have to stop with gaming hardware altogether, from a business POV.

I still think they will bring a very powerful traditional based console within the next 24 months

Personally not thinking it's going to be a "console" in the traditional sense but, we shall see.
 

TransTrender

Gold Member
Who's developing Xbox games in Korea that would be this important to get first cut at something important?

I'm guessing this is just a compliance update for the adorably digital mid-gen refresh.
 

Dane

Member
Its not a next gen devkit, its just a refresh slimline model or just a internal CPU-GPU die shrink like Fat PS5 later revisions, unless a Series XXX Pro model. AFAIK Prototype devkits would not even need certification because they're not intended to be comercialized for developers, only some partners get a first look.
It’s an honest question but if it’s essential the same machine as the Series X would that necessitate new dev kits?
Yes, if they did change components during the manufacture process they would label as a new revision and need a new certification because that's also being sold to developers.
 
Last edited:

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Its not a next gen devkit, its just a refresh slimline model or just a internal CPU-GPU die shrink like Fat PS5 later revisions, unless a Series XXX Pro model. AFAIK Prototype devkits would not even need certification because they're not intended to be comercialized for developers, only some partners get a first look.

Yes, if they did change components during the manufacture process they would label as a new revision and need a new certification because that's also being sold to developers.

Posted by HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 on the last page.

 

baphomet

Member
It’s an honest question but if it’s essential the same machine as the Series X would that necessitate new dev kits?

It's not essential, but they're going to make new dev kits based on the new console revision. They're not going to keep lines manufacturing the original boards just for dev kits. Microsoft always build new dev kits based off their current consoles.

Posted by HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 on the last page.


The guy in that tweet just searched XDK on the site and made that information up.
 
Last edited:

saintjules

Member
The UI could probably due with some changes to make it feel "new", though. That has been a major complaint with the Series consoles.

Specs will be interesting, because I am genuinely starting to think this new "system" is going to be a platform based around a semi-custom blueprint spec with scalability (maybe certain pre-approved upclock/downclock configs) and modularity (specific upgradable & swappable components on manufacturer & user sides). But I guess in terms of some baseline stuff that could be there, you know the stuff people seem obsessed about:

-TF: Probably a tiny bit higher than 3090 in single-issue. So between 35 TF - 40 TF single-issue mode​
-RAM: Mix of DDR5 system memory & GDDR7 for the GPU. System memory upgradable. GPU would probably need at least 1 TB/s bandwidth​
-GPU: Non-zero chance it could be its own chip separate from CPU. Low-profile. Maybe upgradable based on model type​

Those are specs & design I'd prefer to see because that leans into what I think would be best for MS in gaming hardware going forward. There's subtext here you can pick up on if you read between the lines.



My gut of guts wants to think this isn't going to be a "console" the way we normally think of them, it'll be something different. Not a streaming device, tho it'll be capable of that just like any console today is, at least.

If it's what I'm thinking it'll be, there'd be no need to worry about devs "being ready", or about stuff like cross-gen effect etc. Though I think they will have some new 1P games to coincide with this...platform's....launch.

Because well, I've already shared why I feel another "traditional" console is probably a dead-end for Microsoft in gaming. But that doesn't mean they have to stop with gaming hardware altogether, from a business POV.



Personally not thinking it's going to be a "console" in the traditional sense but, we shall see.

Yeah I heard something coming that's not a Console. Not sure if what we're discussing now is it it though.
 
The UI could probably due with some changes to make it feel "new", though. That has been a major complaint with the Series consoles.

Specs will be interesting, because I am genuinely starting to think this new "system" is going to be a platform based around a semi-custom blueprint spec with scalability (maybe certain pre-approved upclock/downclock configs) and modularity (specific upgradable & swappable components on manufacturer & user sides). But I guess in terms of some baseline stuff that could be there, you know the stuff people seem obsessed about:

-TF: Probably a tiny bit higher than 3090 in single-issue. So between 35 TF - 40 TF single-issue mode​
-RAM: Mix of DDR5 system memory & GDDR7 for the GPU. System memory upgradable. GPU would probably need at least 1 TB/s bandwidth​
-GPU: Non-zero chance it could be its own chip separate from CPU. Low-profile. Maybe upgradable based on model type​

Those are specs & design I'd prefer to see because that leans into what I think would be best for MS in gaming hardware going forward. There's subtext here you can pick up on if you read between the lines.

A lot of the potential improvements depend on process nodes. There are much more performance to be gained with 2nm process compared to the 6nm process (PS5 Pro), but smaller nodes are expensive and might not be even available from TSMC (for MS & Sony).

Microsoft, however, has a multi year, multi billion deal with Intel using their 18A (i.e. sub 2nm) process to produce multiple chips from 2025 on. One of those chips could be the Nextbox APU. Anyways, the specs you outlined are reasonable if we assume 2nm/3nm class process (and perhaps non AMD technology). Separate pools of RAM makes sense performance wise nowadays, too much CPU performance is compromised when using GDDR RAM only. Obviously, this would mean that separate RAM controllers and motherboard lanes need to be present which would increase cost. I'm hoping that the Nextbox will also have better dual-issue efficiency compared to RDNA3.
 

SHA

Member
I get it I get it, it's gigantic for the next Gen xbox in 2026, to strengthen their library right after it's launch, a 360 ripoff, still better though.
 

Papa_Wisdom

Member
A new console is nice and all but I’d like to see more than a handful of games that actually take advantage of my series x
 

Papa_Wisdom

Member
It feels like the whole console were made for the matrix demo.
This generation of consoles on a whole has been a massive waste of time. Nothing really on series x apart from flight sim and cyberpunk that I actually thought was worth the price of buying into this gen. totally disappointed so far.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Interesting if true. Sounds like the Xbox 360 tactic where they release their new box a year ahead of their competitor.

Thing is though, what kind of games will you have for a 2026 launch? It will be future games entering the cross-gen phase with one new-gen Console in that space, right?

I don't imagine most devs are ready for next-gen in 2026, so I'm wondering what is there to gain there. Now if you are saying you have 1st party next-gen games ready to go in Holiday 2026, then I could see them getting that head start.

I've said before on here that I think all consoles now will have a cross Gen period, so to some degree whatever you release now will play the same games as the older hardware is playing. To some degree, PS5 pro might as well be called PS6 for all the difference it makes to the games it plays.

So with that in mind, I think it would be good if the hardware got out of sync, it'd make things more interesting at least.

As always, it's worth mentioning that Microsoft have about 100 dev teams now. They could easily prop up their new hardware and make their games the most impressive things on the market, even if 3rd parties weren't making proper use of the hardware.

...they would have to actually finish and release some games to achieve that, of course.

But in theory, supplying "next Gen" games whenever they decide it begins is only a problem if they let it be.
 

SHA

Member
This generation of consoles on a whole has been a massive waste of time. Nothing really on series x apart from flight sim and cyberpunk that I actually thought was worth the price of buying into this gen. totally disappointed so far.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of cyber punk, I liked the big beefy guy part till he got killed, I liked the way simplify the things he's telling while still holding it's weight and value, he's very deep inside, people with the sign of pisces "I could be wrong" are all amazing at telling stories.
 
This generation of consoles on a whole has been a massive waste of time. Nothing really on series x apart from flight sim and cyberpunk that I actually thought was worth the price of buying into this gen. totally disappointed so far.

Partially that is because One X was such a great machine.

PS5 or Series X do have fast SSD, which is great for loading, but nothing revolutionary. Current gen consoles do have RT features, sure, but those are so slow that they are almost unusable.
 

Dorfdad

Gold Member
Didn't we hear rumors of new hardware from the surface team by the end of this year? I clearly think they have a Portable Portable Streaming Device similar to the Sony Portal, but it will support cloud gaming as well and local game streaming.
 

StereoVsn

Member
Didn't we hear rumors of new hardware from the surface team by the end of this year? I clearly think they have a Portable Portable Streaming Device similar to the Sony Portal, but it will support cloud gaming as well and local game streaming.
Ahh, new hardware from Surface team. So that means it’s going to be underpowered, non-repairable/upgradable and overpriced! Can’t wait! 😉
 
Last edited:

twilo99

Member
Ahh, new hardware from Surface team. So that means it’s going to be underpowered, non-repairable/upgradable and overpriced! Can’t wait! 😉

Right, the only thing I’m looking forward to is the upcoming machines using the new Qualcomm chips, which are supposedly on par with Apple’s M2 .. hard to believe but we shall see
 
Yeah I heard something coming that's not a Console. Not sure if what we're discussing now is it it though.

Well, there was that Discord leak from early January outlining potential hardware plans. I still think that leak is gonna end up pretty accurate all things considered, maybe some small changes here or there.

A lot of the potential improvements depend on process nodes. There are much more performance to be gained with 2nm process compared to the 6nm process (PS5 Pro), but smaller nodes are expensive and might not be even available from TSMC (for MS & Sony).

Microsoft, however, has a multi year, multi billion deal with Intel using their 18A (i.e. sub 2nm) process to produce multiple chips from 2025 on. One of those chips could be the Nextbox APU. Anyways, the specs you outlined are reasonable if we assume 2nm/3nm class process (and perhaps non AMD technology). Separate pools of RAM makes sense performance wise nowadays, too much CPU performance is compromised when using GDDR RAM only. Obviously, this would mean that separate RAM controllers and motherboard lanes need to be present which would increase cost. I'm hoping that the Nextbox will also have better dual-issue efficiency compared to RDNA3.

A lot of people were saying the Intel deal wasn't for any gaming hardware, but I just don't see a reason for them to not leverage the Intel stuff for gaming in some capacity. They could still use AMD for the design, but leverage Intel's fabs to build the wafers. And if they're using Intel's fabs for whatever the next hardware is & other chip designs, they can probably leverage economies of scale for better pricing (which might be baked into the cost of the deal anyway to at least some degree).

I still think they'd use AMD at least for GPU to have easier BC, but they aren't inherently limited by going AMD if they go for a good design that they scale down to 2nm/3nm to produce on Intel's fabs.

Personally I'm thinking the next Xbox is going to be a series of devices in different hardware profiles, and they'll probably be running Windows but have a gaming UI mode like the current Xbox consoles (with changes), and option to switch to regular Windows desktop. So, it'd probably make sense to decouple the CPU from the GPU for scalability purposes, and use DDR system memory for CPU and GDDR7 for the GPU. SAM/BAR makes it a more suitable setup in ridding of certain bottlenecks that this split setup would've had in the past.



Is he trolling or being serious?
 
I'm inclined to thinking this will be a Steamdeck competitor or switch-like handheld that uses Series S level hardware as a baseline for releases. Not the worst idea on paper, being able to play games locally would be enticing compared to the Portal's offering I guess. But that's me completely speculating. Finding a way to bring console prices down too seems a reasonable assumption to me. I remember the Playstation 1 really taking off once they hit that $199 price tag.

Seems premature to think it's "next-gen" in the traditional console sense. If this was a new console offering, it would feel like the Dreamcast's launch all over again.
 
Last edited:
I'm inclined to thinking this will be a Steamdeck competitor or switch-like handheld that uses Series S level hardware as a baseline for releases. Not the worst idea on paper, being able to play games locally would be enticing compared to the Portal's offering I guess. But that's me completely speculating. Finding a way to bring console prices down too seems a reasonable assumption to me. I remember the Playstation 1 really taking off once they hit that $199 price tag.

Seems premature to think it's "next-gen" in the traditional console sense. If this was a new console offering, it would feel like the Dreamcast's launch all over again.

How would a portable Series S bring down the price for that system? If anything the price would be higher than the current Series S to account for the screen, built-in controls and maybe other things the retail release would subsidize R&D on like redesigned cooling.

I don't doubt a portable is probably in the works and it may actually kick off whatever next generation of Xbox hardware there is, but whatever non-portable is coming, probably won't be that far off. The idea they (MS) are getting some type of next-gen spec ready with devices using that spec releasing within two years, or even earlier than that (to start) isn't far-fetched.

But personally, I'm gonna refrain from calling them "consoles" because I 100% think Microsoft are leaving that business model behind. We're already kind of seeing that with them bringing more of their games to Sony and Nintendo consoles, for one. And that will probably get more aggressive with time.

That said, it won't really matter if the new hardware isn't "traditional" consoles now will it? That's my thinking on it, anyhow.
 

Oppoi

Member
Can we get a poll in the OP who would buy a pro series model? Make it public, please! I would totally get one and absolutely trash everything about it. Hey, I bought one of course I can voice my personal opinion. Please join the Playstation Ambassador Program.
 
How would a portable Series S bring down the price for that system? If anything the price would be higher than the current Series S to account for the screen, built-in controls and maybe other things the retail release would subsidize R&D on like redesigned cooling.

I don't doubt a portable is probably in the works and it may actually kick off whatever next generation of Xbox hardware there is, but whatever non-portable is coming, probably won't be that far off. The idea they (MS) are getting some type of next-gen spec ready with devices using that spec releasing within two years, or even earlier than that (to start) isn't far-fetched.

But personally, I'm gonna refrain from calling them "consoles" because I 100% think Microsoft are leaving that business model behind. We're already kind of seeing that with them bringing more of their games to Sony and Nintendo consoles, for one. And that will probably get more aggressive with time.

That said, it won't really matter if the new hardware isn't "traditional" consoles now will it? That's my thinking on it, anyhow.

I agree with you, MS has an ecosystem to support, Sony does not. ARM has gained significant momentum, and MS needs to get their SDK's and tools ready to convert x86 to native arm (NOT emulation-Project Voltara is a good start) or when writing code (possibly using AI), it can be deployed/executed both to x86 and ARM at same time without extra time and redundant work.

There is a huge potential in ARM mobile devices that MS must tap into that have 5G/Wifi6e-Wifi7, with decent CPU/GPU/NPU performance along with mobile x86 APU's from intel and AMD which now have at bare minimum exceeded the original xbox one specs:

CPU: Jaguar 8 core CPU 1.75Ghz
GPU: 12 Compute Units @ 853Mhz
RAM: 8GB of DDR3 (5GB dedicated to games) at 68GB/sec bandwidth with 32MB of ESRAM at 204GB/sec

DDR5 RAM can reach up to 69.21 GB/sec and DDR6 134 GB/sec and if Windows OS x86 and ARM need more GPU juice and bandwidth they can definitely get it from external USB 4.0.

All of the above along with AI upscaling can make PC gaming more accessible, affordable, ubiquitous. You just don't need dedicated console gaming and marketing anymore for a company like Microsoft.
 
It would be interesting if they went straight for next-gen console so that a year later after the PS5 Pro releases, the new Xbox comes out. Kind of like what happened with the 360 vs PS3. We need a little shakeup and lets be honest, even though I am more of a Playstation fan than an Xbox one, they release the 360 a full year before the PS3 and PS3 was still playing catch up graphically for a long time.
 
Would this chip work for a handheld? I think the power envelope would be very competitive, just not sure on performance but it looks alright here I guess

There is also the price point..

I'm not sure about power envelope.

That chip, Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite, is a competitor to Apple M2/M3 chips. Really beefy CPUs, NPU and 4.6TF GPU.

Those Oryon CPU cores are really powerful:
Qualcomm-Oryon-vs-Apple-M2-Max-and-Intel-I9-13980HX-power-consumption-1024x682.jpg
 
Last edited:

twilo99

Member
I'm not sure about power envelope.

That chip, Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite, is a competitor to Apple M2/M3 chips. Really beefy CPUs, NPU and 4.6TF GPU.

Those Oryon CPU cores are really powerful:
Qualcomm-Oryon-vs-Apple-M2-Max-and-Intel-I9-13980HX-power-consumption-1024x682.jpg

Right it does have a nice NPU at 75 TOPS ..

TDP is configurable but default is 23W
 
Last edited:
For the NextBox, they really need to fine tune the CPU to making it submit to the GPU (and freeing up the GPU from the CPU), in other words making the CPU the GPU's bitch/slave:

1) Work Graphs for Direct X 12 Ultimate:
Tatu Aalto, Lead Graphics Programmer, Remedy Entertainment: Work Graphs are the natural next step in moving heavy graphics work from CPU to GPU, and we are eagerly waiting for GPU-based work submission to be adapted on all the platforms we target. Communication between CPU and GPU has been a major performance cost in real-time applications like games for a long time already, and we saw a large performance gain in Alan Wake 2 when moving more computation to happen fully on GPU. Having more fine-grained control on GPU scheduling ensures that all the available GPU power can be wisely used. Exposing something like this is very fundamental and can be used in many algorithms we run in Northlight
2) SHMT: simultaneous and heterogeneous multithreading: By letting different processing units — like GPUs, NPUs and hardware accelerators — work in parallel, rather than in sequence, systems can be up to twice as fast and consume 50% less energy. SHMTArticle-LiveScience
3) CPU to Assist the GPU: The CELL from PS3 kicked in when the NVIDIA GPU was lagging behind, they should fine tune the Zen5/Zen6 to mitigate for any shortcomings of the RDNA 5 GPU. Perhaps offset Raytracing, any AI related stuff to the CPU to free up the GPU in performance and picture fidelity.
 
I agree with you, MS has an ecosystem to support, Sony does not. ARM has gained significant momentum, and MS needs to get their SDK's and tools ready to convert x86 to native arm (NOT emulation-Project Voltara is a good start) or when writing code (possibly using AI), it can be deployed/executed both to x86 and ARM at same time without extra time and redundant work.

There is a huge potential in ARM mobile devices that MS must tap into that have 5G/Wifi6e-Wifi7, with decent CPU/GPU/NPU performance along with mobile x86 APU's from intel and AMD which now have at bare minimum exceeded the original xbox one specs:

CPU: Jaguar 8 core CPU 1.75Ghz
GPU: 12 Compute Units @ 853Mhz
RAM: 8GB of DDR3 (5GB dedicated to games) at 68GB/sec bandwidth with 32MB of ESRAM at 204GB/sec

DDR5 RAM can reach up to 69.21 GB/sec and DDR6 134 GB/sec and if Windows OS x86 and ARM need more GPU juice and bandwidth they can definitely get it from external USB 4.0.

All of the above along with AI upscaling can make PC gaming more accessible, affordable, ubiquitous. You just don't need dedicated console gaming and marketing anymore for a company like Microsoft.

Well, when I say the traditional console model doesn't work for Microsoft anymore, that isn't to say Sony are "stuck" with that model or they don't have an ecosystem to support themselves. They do, it's just that for Sony the console (and the traditional business model pertains it) is much more valuable...although they've been making some questionable moves that could jeopardize it longer-term IMO. Different topic, though.

As for a Microsoft gaming portable at Series S spec (to play Series S versions of games natively), they wouldn't need to change the RAM. GDDR6W is a thing; it both reduces the real estate physical chips take up (since capacity doubles per chip) and runs at (IIRC) somewhat lower power consumption to regular GDDR6. The width of the chips is doubled, too, so I would think in theory and practice it leads to simpler memory controller designs for the APU.

That is much easier for MS to do vs. switching out the RAM type but, again, this is only for a hypothetical Series S-level portable device coming this year or next year, whichever. If you're describing a "next-generation" gaming device (portable or otherwise) and are arguing the viability of using ARM instead of x86-64 (but still natively run converted x86-64 code), that could be possible. AI upscaling is going to be involved regardless, but that would help with scaling cost-effective designs at cheaper price points.

For the NextBox, they really need to fine tune the CPU to making it submit to the GPU (and freeing up the GPU from the CPU), in other words making the CPU the GPU's bitch/slave:

1) Work Graphs for Direct X 12 Ultimate:
Tatu Aalto, Lead Graphics Programmer, Remedy Entertainment: Work Graphs are the natural next step in moving heavy graphics work from CPU to GPU, and we are eagerly waiting for GPU-based work submission to be adapted on all the platforms we target. Communication between CPU and GPU has been a major performance cost in real-time applications like games for a long time already, and we saw a large performance gain in Alan Wake 2 when moving more computation to happen fully on GPU. Having more fine-grained control on GPU scheduling ensures that all the available GPU power can be wisely used. Exposing something like this is very fundamental and can be used in many algorithms we run in Northlight
2) SHMT: simultaneous and heterogeneous multithreading: By letting different processing units — like GPUs, NPUs and hardware accelerators — work in parallel, rather than in sequence, systems can be up to twice as fast and consume 50% less energy. SHMTArticle-LiveScience
3) CPU to Assist the GPU: The CELL from PS3 kicked in when the NVIDIA GPU was lagging behind, they should fine tune the Zen5/Zen6 to mitigate for any shortcomings of the RDNA 5 GPU. Perhaps offset Raytracing, any AI related stuff to the CPU to free up the GPU in performance and picture fidelity.

All of this I think would be certain targets for both Microsoft and Sony to achieve with their next generation of gaming devices. However, (3) is something where in CELL's case it had a very specific design that allowed it to make up for the weak Nvidia GPU for graphics processing. I don't know if modern CPUs have continued that design philosophy to enable similar, considering it's now expected for the GPU to handle all matters of graphics processing.

If the GPU is doing its job, the CPU shouldn't need to kick in to handle graphics processing directly, so customizing it for a contingency which shouldn't exist if you did your job right on the GPU's design, is probably a waste of money and resources. That, and there are going to be custom AI-powered silicon to handle things like RT, physics, etc. I'd be more interested in seeing what different approaches MS and Sony take, in that regard.
 
New hardware isn’t going to fix the core issues

It’s a management problem not a hardware problem

Unfortunately we have a media that avoids acknowledging this
 
Top Bottom