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Rumour: Forbes Contributor - AMD Created Navi For Sony's PlayStation 5, Vega Suffered

LordOfChaos

Member
If they do release in 2019 it will be interesting to see how the strategy of releasing a year before works out for them.
On the one side they'll have a full year of being the only "next gen" console. On the other side they will probably be the weaker console for several years after 2020. Most third parties are probably not going to fully support it either and simply release their Ps4/Xb1 games on it with some enhancements. By the time most big publishers are ready to fully get into next gen Microsoft would be the ones offering the more powerful system.


It would be fighting against the march of technology, but this article implies they're trying to get the early release without suffering on performance, by co-funding Navi's development and maybe getting either early access or exclusivity on some features of it.

They'll both be on the same fab node 99% chance so there's also that. The PS3 may have launched a year later but didn't manage to pick up a better GPU for it (significantly worse in some areas actually), for one example, because Microsoft co-funded Xenos's development and got unified shaders before most everyone.
 

Kenpachii

Member
I think it would be a pretty big blunder not to be BC. I know Sony came out and said they still like solid generations, but the hardware is shaping up to be so similar, it won't be as forgivable as the completely different PS3-PS4. Still going to be 8 far more powerful x86 cores, still going to be more powerful GCN based graphics.


This has the potential to be a more seamless generation switch, where the new box already plays a killer library with upgrades, and new exclusives that really take advantage of it.

If they want there digital front to be taken anything seriously BC has to happen. Without endless BC investing into a digital library is pointless.
 

Klik

Member
Im ok with PS5 in 2019. Going from 1.8TF,crappy cpu to hipotetical 10-12TF GPU with next gen architecture,HUGELY more powerful CPU is a good next-gen step up.
Seeing how Horizon Zero Dawn & God of War look on 1.8tf console can't wait to see what they can do with 10+TF. And the biggest leap forward is gonna be CPU.We need true next gen physics,destruction,AI etc.
Xbox1X is powerful machine but developers still have to design games for a lowest common deniminator(X1).Set the lowest common denominator to 10+TF,powerful 8 core Zen CPU,16+Gb ram for games and the true next gen in here
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
High End is too risky for AMD to focus on. Mid range is where they scored victory over nVidia back in Fermi times and had upper hand for some time after.

I wouldn't view this as "because consoles".


We can have 4k 30fps today, if graphics complexity is dropped.
When GPUs get more beef, aside from upping resolution (because new TVs are out) the surplus "budget" is spent on improving graphics, rather than higher FPS.

So, I think we are at 30fps mainly because nobody is treating better framerates as high priority.

That's why a good number of games will be at 30fps next gen as well. Developers will have a larger resource budget, but many will choose graphics over framerate to fit their vision.
 

GoldenEye98

posts news as their odd job
Of course, because MS is the only company who has ever given a decent cooling solution in a console ever and they will be the last......;)

Forget that the chip on 7nm will require less powerdraw aside from prior GPU solutions and architectures, forget that there are a million companies that have ultra cheap cooling solutions for GPU, CPU and APU's atm, any of which Sony could choose or perhaps even develop their own. Forget about all the NUC PC systems they had on display recently and reviewed, where the form factor is smaller than XBONEX, more powerful than XBONEX and is more than adequately cooled with a million more ports et al....... These things were shown in 2017, PS5 releases in November 2020. Technology is just at a standstill and Sony is just twiddling it's thumbs eh ;)

I'm pretty sure GCN architecture is limited to 64CU's. Which means in terms of TFlops:
@1.0GHZ = ~8.2TFlops
@1.2GHZ = ~9.8TFlops
@1.4GHZ = ~11.4TFlops
@1.6GHz = ~13.1TFlops


So in order to go well beyond 10 FTlops you'd have to really increase the clocks beyond what we in see current consoles.

It's possible but they are going to have to have a beefier cooling system than what is on the PS4/PS4 Pro.
 

xool

Member
I'm pretty sure GCN architecture is limited to 64CU's.

[..]

So in order to go well beyond 10 FTlops you'd have to really increase the clocks beyond what we in see current consoles.

It's possible but they are going to have to have a beefier cooling system than what is on the PS4/PS4 Pro.

I feel like I already answered this https://www.neogaf.com/threads/forb...ation-5-vega-suffered.1463102/#post-253300472 but again - PS4 Slim/Pro are 16nm parts, PS5 is likely to come with 7nm : "7nm is ~40% power of equivalent 16nm part. plus clock increases (maybe 35-40%) "

Vega64 uses up to 300W (torture/gaming-turbo https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-vega-64,5173-17.html ) -so that's 120W at 7nm .. but that's already at ~1400-1500MHz .. so at 7nm that might be expected to go up to 1900-2100MHz .. (optimistically)

And a Ryzen 1700 only uses 65W at 16nm .. that could be as low as sub 30W at 7nm, plus an increase in clock speed.

Total power from CPU + GPU would be 150W .. there are other power demands , but 150W is well within normal range for consoles

;tldr - at 7nm die shrink with AMD parts using same technology as today cooling shouldn't be a problem
 
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THE:MILKMAN

Member
2019 should be partial unveiling followed by 2020 official launch in winter.

Sony won't do it this way. It will all happen in the same year. Reveal February, Release November or closer.

xool said:
Total power from CPU + GPU would be 150W

OG PS4 and Pro use 150W and ~155W at the wall for the whole system! The APUs use around 75-100W max IMO. No way will PS5 APU use close to 150W alone.
 

xool

Member
No way will PS5 APU use close to 150W alone.

That 150W figure I gave includes CPU and GPU and there's 8GB of HBM included in that figure .. modern power supplies are 95%+ efficient. The other power draws are HDD + network chips mostly ~10W+5W maybe ?

I don't think those are crazy figures (though I can see they're at the limits of acceptability) - the PS4/XONE were relatively modest designs - remember the OG PS3 drew 170-200W at wall (according to wikipedia) though that was a hog..
 
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rokkerkory

Member
I'm pretty sure GCN architecture is limited to 64CU's. Which means in terms of TFlops:
@1.0GHZ = ~8.2TFlops
@1.2GHZ = ~9.8TFlops
@1.4GHZ = ~11.4TFlops
@1.6GHz = ~13.1TFlops


So in order to go well beyond 10 FTlops you'd have to really increase the clocks beyond what we in see current consoles.

It's possible but they are going to have to have a beefier cooling system than what is on the PS4/PS4 Pro.

Is Navi GCN btw?
 

Shin

Banned
Is Navi GCN btw?
Yes the GPU after that will be an all new architecture.
Using XBOX clock speed (1172MHz *2) as an example on 14nm it should be possible to reach 1.6xx MHz on 7nm with similar cooling.
To be honest the GPU/SoC is hitting a point where I believe vapor chamber will be mandatory, because the alternative is a hell lot more expensive.
Using a Asus G752VY laptop (GTX 980M with vapor chamber), a next-gen console will be more powerful (if not we're all fucked then) so that's my reference point.
Here's the specs for GloFo's 7nm process (I believe TSMC claimed 35% instead of 40, but then again they are in a world of their own I often find).

Performance, Power, Cost Advantage from 7nm Area Scaling
>40% performance improvement at iso power (vs. 14nm)
>60% power reduction at iso frequency (vs. 14nm)
Up to 30% lower die cost (vs. 14nm)
Source: https://www.globalfoundries.com/sites/default/files/product-briefs/pb-7lp.pdf
 
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Dabaus

Banned
Oh, I was under the impression you meant like teraflops, RAM, which cpu it was using, etc. I was thinking about different scenarios next gen could play out:

Lets go with the scenario some us in here think and that's the ps5 launches in 2019 with lets say a low end ryzen cpu, a 10 teraflop gpu and 16 gig gddr 6 RAM, backwards compatible, and 399. Last of us 2 and Ghost of Tscunima are cross gen launch titles with Death Stranding landing another 3-6 months down the road. Assuming Sony has kept third parties in the loop, and weve had rumors that dev kits are already out then Virtually all third parties would be there day one. This wouldn't be the dreamcast or Saturn 2.0.

I think if that were to happen Microsoft would be in a really difficult position if they wait a year later. Sure they could beef up the specs quite a bit, surprise people that its also 399 despite the tech, and have halo at launch but they might be looking at a 10 million plus console deficit. Third parties would probably be less likely to give MS third party exclusives because of said deficit and also because how this gen played out. If this is the case I really don't see a way MS could climb out the hole short of Buying EA or something to that effect.


Next lets look at a best case scenario for Microsoft: Sony gets cocky again, delays PS5 until 2021, has no backwards compatibility, has decent specs and priced at 450 plus. MS launches in 2020 like we assume they do. Halo Is a launch title and is a return to form. In the meanwhile MS has acquired a few more first parties and has cyber punk locked down as an exclusive. I think sony would have a tough time clawing back market share in the west but over time would slowly outsell the xbox, but it would be a hollow victory.


Both come out at the same time 2020: Lets say for the sake of argument they have similar specs and price, and both have backwards compatibility. I still think Last of us 2 and Ghost of Tschsima are cross gen launch titles. Ms will have Halo as a launch title as well. I think MS will lock down Cyber punk as a timed exclusive. I think it will mostly be a repeat of this gen I just don't think MS will have quite the stigma around them. Who knows.
 
Sony won't do it this way. It will all happen in the same year. Reveal February, Release November or closer.



OG PS4 and Pro use 150W and ~155W at the wall for the whole system! The APUs use around 75-100W max IMO. No way will PS5 APU use close to 150W alone.
Just a reminder, the PS3 launch unit was close to 200W.

For the nextgen even at 7nm I think it's going to be really hard to keep the power requirement low. I think those consoles will also be closer to 200W @ peak than 100-150W.
 
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xool

Member
...

Lets go with the scenario some us in here think and that's the ps5 launches in 2019 with lets say a low end ryzen cpu, a 10 teraflop gpu and 16 gig gddr 6 RAM, backwards compatible, and 399.

...

I really really think a 2019 launch is very unlikely - most people agree that the machines will need chips at the 7nm scale ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_nanometer ) to be viable .. typically console hardware launches a couple or more years after the first commercial availability of a node - after the 'early adopter' premium is gone, and the production problems have been smoothed out - ie cheap and readily available "mass market"

For previous generations (very similar figures exist for xbox) it's usually 2 or 3 years - the OG PlayStation is an exception.

PS(1) 500nm 1994/5 (~0 years)
PS2 250nm 2000 (3 years)
PS3 90nm 2006/7 (2 years)
PS4 28nm 2013/4 (~3 years)

7nm chips barely exist today, though they're expected this summer/autumn in bulk for some customers .. that would put one estimate at when any new console can launch (at a reasonable price) at 2020 or a bit later (I'd say late 2020/early 2021) .. That's pretty much where most of the safe money is betting on..

;tldr I'd bet cash money against a 2019 hardware release .. but move your specs to late 2020 and it looks very sensible to me
 
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With Phil throwing in a next gen mention, I reckon it may be possible the PS5 comes next year and Xbox the following. It was almost as if he wanted to get ahead of the conversation.

AMD aren't making Navi solely for Sony though lol. They probably doing some custom tweaks / suggestions with it.
 

llien

Member
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THE:MILKMAN

Member
Just a reminder, the PS3 launch unit was close to 200W.

For the nextgen even at 7nm I think it's going to be really hard to keep the power requirement low. I think those consoles will also be closer to 200W @ peak than 100-150W.

I don't dispute that PS3 used 200W. I have tried to explain this power/TPD stuff many times but get nowhere so will bow out and not comment about power use again...
 

GribbleGrunger

Dreams in Digital
Very interesting....this makes it sound like PS5 may be closer than we think. If 'Navi' was developed for Sony and it's supposedly finished development I don't see them waiting until 2020. Sounds like 2019 to me.

I've always said mid 2019. My thinking was the Pro released 1 year earlier than the XB1X so Sony could get away with releasing a new console earlier than MS.
 

vpance

Member
With Phil throwing in a next gen mention, I reckon it may be possible the PS5 comes next year and Xbox the following. It was almost as if he wanted to get ahead of the conversation.

AMD aren't making Navi solely for Sony though lol. They probably doing some custom tweaks / suggestions with it.

Multi GPU :sneaky:
 
Sorry to snap but get so frustrated repeating myself and feel like a broken record....

I hope the confirmed leaks come soon for next gen to move this discussion on!
You know, with recent rumors I feel like my colleague was right about the devkit back in february, the PS5 and XB2 or whatever are probably a lot more advanced in development than we think.
 

xwez

Banned
I think it's a hard sell to get people to think about moving off their current consoles at this point. I mean a game would have to be ungodly to get me to throw down another 399.

If the PS5 is backwards compatible, it will be a no brainer for a lot of people.
 

jadedm17

Member
I think it's a hard sell to get people to think about moving off their current consoles at this point. I mean a game would have to be ungodly to get me to throw down another 399.

Yea, keep hoping but I don't see 2019.
I also don't understand why so many want 2019.
 

GoldenEye98

posts news as their odd job
You know, with recent rumors I feel like my colleague was right about the devkit back in february, the PS5 and XB2 or whatever are probably a lot more advanced in development than we think.

I think the mid-gen consoles are skewing the thinking. Sony or Microsoft never explicitly said they released these things to extend the generation. They released them as an "option" to hardcore/power users. The mid-gen consoles are a small fraction of the overall install base....most users don't have them. 2019 would be 6 years since the launch of PS4 and Xbox One and that is about the average amount of time for a generation.
 

Vexed

Member
Sony could do a non-holiday launch in early 2020, Switch demonstrated it's doable... let TLOU2 and other titles wrap out 2019 holiday season.
 

Shin

Banned
As was pointed out to/by DF, this article appeared a few hours before the Forbes one: https://wccftech.com/exclusive-amd-navi-gpu-roadmap-cost-zen/

And (unsurprisingly) unlike the Forbes article, has some meat around the bones. The way the story is told makes perfect sense.
It's all part a bigger article about AMD, the Forbes piece is referencing to these two: http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Vega-Codename-265481/News/7-nm-Samples-Gamer-Grafikkarten-1257865/ & https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd-navi-performance-computex
 
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