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Salon - On Hillary's warmongering in Libya, the devasation that followed.

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nib95

Banned
Can we stop with the ridiculous claims of painting Hilary as a war hawk just because she as a secretary of state carried out her president's policy in conjunction with NATO.

The guy was indiscriminately killing his own civilians. what do all of you people would do? nothing?

People in this thread calling her a warmongerer for doing the right thing show me that they dont know a thing about anything. they are idealist lefties who want an isolationist agenda not unlike Ron Paul's. It's a naive agenda. it's a cold hearted agenda.

The funny thing is that Obama himself said that if Assad used chemical weapons on his own civilians we would invade Syria. Assad used them anyway and obama did nothing. two years later ISIS is now capable of launching massive terrorists attacks through out europe. where did that policy of not taking out dictators get us?

There are countless dictators, war lords and groups that go around killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people, doesn't mean the US goes in to help every time.

Assad may have been killing his people, in this instance those that opposed his government (in the same way the US would do a similar thing were a violent rebellion to spring up), but at the time the US (Hilary and Obama incl) supported the rebels, many of whom ended up fracturing in to ISIS, despite the fact that Assad still had majority public support. The decision to back the rebels was a catastrophic failure, since it aided in prolonging the civil war, and essentially ended up creating ISIS. Had the rebel groups not had political and military backing from numerous other sides, Assad may have quashed them, or at least sooner rather than later.

And it's funny you talk about the opposing strategy being an idealist leftist isolationist agenda, when the opposite in my mind is akin to murderous madness.

To go through a few of your other points.

SlimySnake said:
It's a naive agenda. it's a cold hearted agenda.

What's cold hearted to me is directly or indirectly being responsible for killing or displacing hundreds of thousands of innocent people, which is exactly what US foreign policy on Iraq, Libya, Syria, Palestine etc has directly or indirectly enabled.

SlimySnake said:
where did that policy of not taking out dictators get us?

How about where the policies of taking out dictators got you? Or did you forget that this all started with the power vacuum that was left behind by ousting Saddam, based on an illegal war promoted through lies and false intelligence (a war which Hillary supported), that cost trillions of dollars of US tax payer money, and hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. The region was further destabilised by what happened in Libya, and of course Syria too. But it pretty much all stems back to the catastrophic decision to go to war in Iraq, and get rid of Saddam.

But we can go further to track the madness of hawkish failing foreign policies from the US.

Who do you think put Saddam in power in the first place? Who do you think armed him with WMD's and didn't care when he was using them to mutual interest? That's right, the US.

Who do you think trained the Afghani's in terrorism tactics in the hopes that they might be useful against the soviets? Again, the US.

Who do you think allied with Gaddafi, and even used his institutions as secret torture facilities when it benefited them? The US.

How about the US's constant support of Israel and countless obstructionist votes in the UN, that have essentially allowed Israel to colonise and slowly wipe Palestine off the map, as well as uphold a brutal occupation?

The constant support, both political and military, of Saudi Arabia, that has led to further dangerous ramifications?

How about who was responsible for overthrowing the secular government in Iran in place of the Shah, simply because Iran wanted to nationalise their oil? Again, the US.

And just to put things in to greater topical perspective, in Iraq, there were zero suicide attacks in the country's history until 2003. Since then, there have been over 1,900. In Pakistan, there was one suicide attack in the 14 years before 9/11. In the fourteen years since, there have been over 490. United States foreign policy and military intervention continues to be one of the, if not the biggest indirect catalysts for terrorism out there.


There are so many more examples of how reckless, evil, damaging, and absolutely disgraceful US foreign policy has been over the years, especially in the Middle East (which is not to say certain other nations haven't also shared responsibility or had similarly reprehensible foreign policy), that I have to wonder how anyone could possibly actually be in favour of the status quo, or such repeated failing strategies.
 

GYODX

Member
Can we stop with the ridiculous claims of painting Hilary as a war hawk just because she as a secretary of state carried out her president's policy in conjunction with NATO.

The guy was indiscriminately killing his own civilians. what do all of you people would do? nothing?

People in this thread calling her a warmongerer for doing the right thing show me that they dont know a thing about anything. they are idealist lefties who want an isolationist agenda not unlike Ron Paul's. It's a naive agenda. it's a cold hearted agenda.

The funny thing is that Obama himself said that if Assad used chemical weapons on his own civilians we would invade Syria. Assad used them anyway and obama did nothing. two years later ISIS is now capable of launching massive terrorists attacks through out europe. where did that policy of not taking out dictators get us?
And the agenda you espouse is imperialistic no matter how you try to frame it.
 

Antiochus

Member
Supporters of the U.S. action on Libya seem not to understand that even if one concedes on Gaddafi being a murderous butcher to his people that must be stopped, there is no mandate whatsoever for the U.S. to actively intervene to depose him. U.S. airstrikes could have indefinitely kept Gaddafi away from the Eastern parts of Libya, and maintained a stalemate there that could have eventually be amenable for a partition of the country, with some semblance of state control, unlike the current situation on the ground there
 

Hermii

Member
"that's why we need real American military in Syria"


you just explained exactly why America is/was scrutinized for not going in...

When one power is aiding the Syrian Government (Russia) and other powers (US / Saudi Intelligence, probably others) are aiding those who fight the Syrian government thats just a recipe for never-ending carnage.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
As the article says, it was a EU and Canada lead effort. This is one weird situation where Americans are taking responsibility for something they're not responsible for OR more likely, people just want to sling mud on Obama/Clinton and make it stick, which is exactly what this is.

Yep, and the sheer number of posters in this thread show it's working wonders.
One of the most bizarre parts of this election cycle is Sanders supporters using right wing talking points, attacks and sources as long as it works against Hillary. That's not to say that's what's happening here, but I suspect many of those posters in this thread are Sanders supporters.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
When one power is aiding the Syrian Government (Russia) and other powers (US / Saudi Intelligence, probably others) are aiding those who fight the Syrian government thats just a recipe for never-ending carnage.

well, now it is. not 5 years ago when this all started and chemical weapons were the biggest reason to attack.
 
Yep, and the sheer number of posters in this thread show it's working wonders.
One of the most bizarre parts of this election cycle is Sanders supporters using right wing talking points, attacks and sources as long as it works against Hillary. That's not to say that's what's happening here, but I suspect many of those posters in this thread are Sanders supporters.

That doesn't seem too bizarre. Some of the earliest proponents of Birther nonsense were Clinton supporters. If you wanted to be charitable you could argue that these severe criticisms are better tested out in a safer, more 'friendly' situation like a primary, that it will only polish up the winner for the eventual real presidential contest. Better to be hit now by fellow Democrats than blind-sided by your actual opponents, right?

Though really it's just because a lot of people are zealous dicks.
 

curls

Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience 💤
A vote for Hillary is a vote for the establishment.
 
The reddit hit jobs on Hillary are getting disgusting. There are some rumours that they are being instigated by right-wing pot stirrers disguised as Sanders supporters.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
I love how the article fails to mention why we had to go into Libya in the first place. Go and read about the atrocities Gaddaffi committed against the Arab Spring protesters and against the rebels then come back and tell me if you wouldn't do the same thing.

Also, we led a multi-national coalition. it wasnt just hilary pulling the strings ffs.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
The only people to blame for the devastation in Libya are the people fighting there, the idiots who because of religious or ideological reasons can not or will not embrace a civilised liberal democratic society when provided with the opportunity. Plenty of other countries have successfully transitioned to a stable democracy after the fall of a dictator rather than choose the path of barbaric savagery, including those that were removed with US collaboration.
 

Condom

Member
The only people to blame for the devastation in Libya are the people fighting there, the idiots who because of religious or ideological reasons can not or will not embrace a civilised liberal democratic society when provided with the opportunity. Plenty of other countries have successfully transitioned to a stable democracy after the fall of a dictator rather than choose the path of barbaric savagery, including those that were removed with US collaboration.

Right. How about you look at the context of the country (region, politics etc) before bombing them towards Freedom™. You have to be beyond delusional or just biased towards US/NATO interests to think the United States of America's foreign policy is something even remotely resembling humanism.

We had the cold war and years upon years of post cold war aggression yet there are still people like you just happily rallying behind US/NATO propaganda.
 
So basically what happened in Iraq as well. That power vacuum is still not solved and created a huge mess which spread to other countries.

Whoever wins the elections, the world loses.
 

Jb

Member
If only we had not intervened and instead let the rebels take on Gaddafi on their own things would have worked out beautifully. Just look at Syria.
 
Right. How about you look at the context of the country (region, politics etc) before bombing them towards Freedom™. You have to be beyond delusional or just biased towards US/NATO interests to think the United States of America's foreign policy is something even remotely resembling humanism.

We had the cold war and years upon years of post cold war aggression yet there are still people like you just happily rallying behind US/NATO propaganda.

Straw man. I never said it was humanism and that is irrelevant. I said plenty of other countries have successfully transitioned from dictators to liberal democracies without degenerating into violence, so the only ones to blame for the devastation in Libya are the ones fighting.
 

Condom

Member
Straw man. I never said it was humanism and that is irrelevant. I said plenty of other countries have successfully transitioned from dictators to liberal democracies without degenerating into violence, so the only ones to blame for the devastation in Libya are the ones fighting.

...And I say that seeing the context of the region (general unrest, terror threat from the west, east and south of the country) it was expected to turn out like this. Those who warned for this outcome were not heard and mostly seen as simple apologists for the Gaddafi regime.

Even Gaddafi himself warned for this but by that time NATO had already portrayed him as some lunatic.

To put it simply: It wasn't the right time for regime change, so those who helped make the regime fall are to blame.
 
If only we had not intervened and instead let the rebels take on Gaddafi on their own things would have worked out beautifully. Just look at Syria.
Yeah. The death total in Syria is significantly higher than the numbers in Lybia. So I don't agree with the premise that doing absolutely nothing is always a better solution than taking any form of action. Assad and Russia have been bombing and killing innocent civilians indiscriminately. Syrias population has been cut in half by nearly 10 million people just over the past few years. We can argue about how we handled the intervention but if we were able to implement a no fly zone in 2013 over Syria like we were able to over Lybia than this refugee crisis we are seeing right now with millions poring across the boarders of Europe every day likely would never have happened at even close to the same scale that it has.
 

Azih

Member
. So I don't agree with the premise that doing absolutely nothing is always a better solution than taking any form of action.
The US did far from ' absolutely nothing' in Syria. Obama actively picked a side in the civil war right from the get go.

So bizarre to see the argument that Syria should have been treated like Iraq.
 

eu pfhor ia

Neo Member
Criticizing politicians for treating war as a "solution" will never be a bad thing in my mind. War is a pretty shitty solution to geopolitical situations, no matter how much language of "necessity" is used to mask it
 
The US did far from ' absolutely nothing' in Syria. Obama actively picked a side in the civil war right from the get go.

So bizarre to see the argument that Syria should have been treated like Iraq.
The situation in Iraq is not comparable nor did I argue it should be handled in the same way
 

Azih

Member
The situation in Iraq is not comparable nor did I argue it should be handled in the same way
Fair enough. That was a bit of a strawman. But you are being hawkish and arguing that the US should have been more militarily aggressive than it was aren't you?
 
Fair enough. That was a bit of a strawman. But you are being hawkish and arguing that the US should have been more militarily aggressive than it was aren't you?
I don't support aggression for the sake of it or violent regime change when there's no alternative government in place but I think there are times when no fly zones are necessary. The current situation with Syria and leaving Assad unchecked and allowing Russia to come in has lead to the worst people displacement/ humanitarian crisis since World War 2.

That is unlike anything that was happening prior to Iraq. A no fly zone implemented a few years ago could have prevented that from happening at the scale it has. It also would have given us the political leverage needed to force a controlled replacement of Assad with someone in the current Syrian government replacing him. Assad has lost legitimacy and the region will never be stable under him. Even Bernie sanders has said we need a controlled change in Syria. But we didn't do the things necessary to make it happen and save lives. If that makes me hawkish, I dunno. I don't see what alternatives there were. What has happened already without us getting involved has pretty much been a worst case scenario
 
"Could the fact that Libya has enormous oil reserves, and was one of the world’s largest oil producers before the bombing, be a factor? Or its billions of dollars in gold reserves? Or Qaddafi’s history of supporting militant left-wing and anti-imperialist movements?"

Did we plunder any of this?

What we did in Libya (like in Iraq) was terrible, but we have a strong tendency to gain absolutely nothing of value from our wars. Not alllies, nor glory nor resources. Nothing.
 

AP90

Member
Very good article.

Yet somehow this has not made the rounds with the the media for the establishments preferred candidate...
 
Whole region and the situations are awful, world should be working together to stablize the top of Africa, instead we have the war machine rotating.

World was able to come together for NATO peacekeeping for Yugoslavia, but for Africa? pffff
 
Naming Libya as one of the world's largest oil producers is really stretching it to fit the 'Blood For Oil' narrative. In 2008 Libya was 17th in the world.
 

nib95

Banned
"Could the fact that Libya has enormous oil reserves, and was one of the world’s largest oil producers before the bombing, be a factor? Or its billions of dollars in gold reserves? Or Qaddafi’s history of supporting militant left-wing and anti-imperialist movements?"

Did we plunder any of this?

What we did in Libya (like in Iraq) was terrible, but we have a strong tendency to gain absolutely nothing of value from our wars. Not alllies, nor glory nor resources. Nothing.

I suppose that depends on who you're asking. The military industrial complex, private securities firms and American oil contractors such as KBR (a subsidiary of Halliburton, which was once run by Dick Cheney), that got by far and away the largest oil contracts from Iraq, might all have something to say. In these situations it's generally never the US tax payer that gets much of the benefit, it's the private sectors that find ways to further profit off of taxpayer money.

FT | Contractors reap $138bn from Iraq war

The Independent | Blood and oil: How the West will profit from Iraq's most precious commodity

The Guardian | Iraq invasion was about oil

MJ | Once Again, American Weapons-Makers Are Making a Killing in Iraq

The Guardian | Audit reveals billions of dollars of Iraqi oil funds gone missing

Reuters | Iraq hunting $17 billion missing after U.S. invasion
 

*Splinter

Member
If only we had not intervened and instead let the rebels take on Gaddafi on their own things would have worked out beautifully. Just look at Syria.
Exactly. Not to mention the fact that other countries (UK, France) were already going to Libya. The US staying out wouldn't have made anything better except to keep your own hands "clean".

I don't know how anyone can read an article like this and not see the obvious agenda behind it, much less take it at face value.
 
I suppose that depends on who you're asking. The military industrial complex, private securities firms and American oil contractors such as KBR (a subsidiary of Halliburton, which was once run by Dick Cheney), that got by far and away the largest oil contracts from Iraq, might all have something to say.

How exactly is this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq

Chinese companies have 1.12 billion in their contracts and the US ones 1.17. Biggest winner by far is Angola with 344 million in contracts which is equivalent to 43 billion given Angola's small economy,
 

nib95

Banned
How exactly is this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq

Chinese companies have 1.12 billion in their contracts and the US ones 1.17. Biggest winner by far is Angola with 344 million in contracts which is equivalent to 43 billion given Angola's small economy,

Not sure, but that article is from the Financial Times and there are many more discussing it. Some excerpts from KBR's Wiki page.

Iraq

KBR employs more American private contractors and holds a larger contract with the U.S. government than does any other firm in Iraq. The company's roughly 14,000 U.S. employees in Iraq provide logistical support to the U.S. armed forces.[25]

Controversy

Political connections and corruption

Following the end of the first Gulf War, the Pentagon, led by then Defense Secretary Dick Cheney, paid Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root Services over $8.5 million to study the use of private military forces with American soldiers in combat zones.[12]

Some controversy arose in February 1999 when KBR was awarded a substantial contract to provide emergency support to US military operations in the Balkans,[27] despite DynCorp having been awarded a contract, known as LOGCAP II, in 1994 to provide emergency support in exactly these sort of circumstances.[28]

RIO, or Restore Iraqi Oil, was awarded to KBR without competition when the United States Department of Defense determined that KBR was "the only contractor that could satisfy the requirement for immediate execution of the plan".[29]

Seems like the contracts with KBR are a little more unique, regarding oil rebuilding programmes and general reconstruction and security. There's a little more on it here.

The Guardian | Email shows Cheney 'link' to oil contract

The report, based on an internal Pentagon email, joins a steady stream of allegations of cronyism involving Halliburton. Since the fall of Saddam Hussein, the Houston company has won $17bn (£9bn) in contracts to rebuild Iraq, far outstripping its competitors.

Mr Cheney, who ran Halliburton for five years before he became George Bush's vice-president in 2000, has maintained that he severed all links to the company when he entered public life.

However, Time said it had obtained an internal email from a Pentagon official indicating that Mr Cheney's office had been intimately involved in awarding a multibillion-dollar contract for the restoration of Iraqi oil.
 
Despicable piece by Salon, trying to exonerate a dictator poised to commit the systematic cleansing of an entire city. 'Warmongering' means creating war, as if the Libyan civil war wasn't a real war until the west got involved? It was Hillary's decision to get involved, but it was Obama's decision to virtually abandon the country militarily afterwards.

These facts aside, this piece must've been in the works for a while or else Salon haven't been keeping up with developments in Libya. The democratic unity government forces in Libya have been gaining momentum and ground against rebel and jihadi insurgents since the beginning of this year.
 

noshten

Member
Exactly. Not to mention the fact that other countries (UK, France) were already going to Libya. The US staying out wouldn't have made anything better except to keep your own hands "clean".

I don't know how anyone can read an article like this and not see the obvious agenda behind it, much less take it at face value.

How about the articles from 2011 did those have an "agenda" behind them.
Right the agenda is for the West to stop fucking about in the Middle East unless they have a long term plan to deal with the problem. Right now the only plan hawks from France, UK and US have is chaos and this has played right into ISIS and other groups hands.
But sure you think Clinton is the only one being blamed and this is all a grand conspiracy against her because of the primary - rather than her having such inclination ever since getting into politics.
 

*Splinter

Member
How about the articles from 2011 did those have an "agenda" behind them.
Right the agenda is for the West to stop fucking about in the Middle East unless they have a long term plan to deal with the problem. Right now the only plan hawks from France, UK and US have is chaos and this has played right into ISIS and other groups hands.
But sure you think Clinton is the only one being blamed and this is all a grand conspiracy against her because of the primary - rather than her having such inclination ever since getting into politics.
Yes this article is directed at Hilary and her current presidential bid. That's why it's being published now, rather than in 2011. That's also why we get multiple paragraphs on racial killings that the OP thought relevant enough to bold.

There is an entirely valid debate to be had on whether or not the west should intervene in the Middle East and to what extent. There is also a valid debate to be had on whether or not the US specifically should have become involved in this war. This article isn't interested in any of this, and is just jumping at the opportunity to trash Hillary.

"Hillary is a warmonger and responsible for the war in Libya and these subsequent horrific racial crimes" is a ridiculous position. It's disgusting that anyone could learn of these atrocities and think "oo I know how I can use this", and embarrassing that the subsequent propaganda can be eaten up so readily.

And before you accuse me of being a Hillary supporter: I'm not even American. IDGAF about Hillary or any of your other pitiful excuses of politicians.
 

JohnsonUT

Member
It is going to be awesome when the neocon supporters of the Bush administration that everyone hates line up behind Hillary in a Hillary vs. Trump scenario.
 

params7

Banned
SMFH


WE NEED TO BRING BACK WATERBOARDING AND A LOT MORE
WE NEED TO BLOCK ALL MUSLIMS FROM COMING INTO THE COUNTRY


yeah, way better.

Those are bad and I don't back them, but you're bringing in policies about interrogation of suspects in terrorism charges in a topic about policies which impact millions of people and their nations. Priorities.

I'm not going to back a candidate who is going to slam Trump on waterboarding, only to turn around and declare war in Middle East resulting in more suicide bombing, destruction of civil life, spread of Salafist extremism and death and destruction all around. So candidates saying we shouldn't go fight these wars should get credit.


It is going to be awesome when the neocons supporters of the Bush administration that everyone hates line up behind Hillary in a Hillary vs. Trump scenario.

Indeed.
 

Pedrito

Member
Despicable piece by Salon, trying to exonerate a dictator poised to commit the systematic cleansing of an entire city. 'Warmongering' means creating war, as if the Libyan civil war wasn't a real war until the west got involved? It was Hillary's decision to get involved, but it was Obama's decision to virtually abandon the country militarily afterwards.

These facts aside, this piece must've been in the works for a while or else Salon haven't been keeping up with developments in Libya. The democratic unity government forces in Libya have been gaining momentum and ground against rebel and jihadi insurgents since the beginning of this year.

The "journalist" Ben Norton more or less wrote the exact same piece back in october.

http://www.salon.com/2015/10/26/the...and_the_obama_administration_destroyed_libya/

If you click on his name, you can see that he clearly has an axe to grind. I know, "don't shoot the messenger", but looking at his other stuff, I have doubt he would show the whole picture. Dude could amost be writing for globalresearch.ca.
 
Two wrongs don't make a right.
I don't see helping the victims of the murderous dictator Gaddafi as a wrong, so I don't see how this is relevant.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for the establishment.
Still better than Sanders's bad policies.

The US did far from ' absolutely nothing' in Syria. Obama actively picked a side in the civil war right from the get go.

So bizarre to see the argument that Syria should have been treated like Iraq.
Obama actively picked a side and then provided moral support, but next to no material support. The US did close to absolutely nothing.
 

params7

Banned
US barely gave resources or training. Obama has been greatly criticized for causing the protracted civil war in Syria for not getting involved.

Giving assault rifles, ammunition, anti-tank rockets, intelligence, training, money is barely getting involved? Obama got involved in every conceivable way in Syria besides actually putting boots on ground.
 

Azih

Member
I don't support aggression for the sake of it or violent regime change when there's no alternative government in place but I think there are times when no fly zones are necessary.
No fly zones are aggressive and violent man.

The current situation with Syria and leaving Assad unchecked
Huge proportions of the Syrian population supported Assad before things got really bad. A huge proportion of the Syrian population still support him and far more believe him to be the best on a list of terrible choices. What do you propose American military might would do about that?

What has happened already without us getting involved has pretty much been a worst case scenario

The US has been involved directly and indirectly from the get go.


Obama actively picked a side and then provided moral support, but next to no material support.

One of the many tragedies of the US is that as a superpower, mere rhetoric from the country bolsters one side in a civil war more than active material support from other countries.

And as params7 points out the US has been providing material support in every way except direct military intervention from the start to one side in the civil war.

And don't forget that in picking a side in Syria the US put itself on the side of the terrible Gulf states at the regional level with all the terrible ramifications of that to boot.
 
There's no doubt she's the worst candidate when it comes to American aggression and imperialism. She's in bed with the neocons and has been for some time.
 

params7

Banned
Obama actively picked a side and then provided moral support, but next to no material support. The US did close to absolutely nothing.

Spending $500 million in training and equipping rebels and mercenaries sent from the Gulf states.

If that is providing no material support - then I'd like to know what qualifies as providing material support.
 

JohnsonUT

Member
There's no doubt she's the worst candidate when it comes to American aggression and imperialism. She's in bed with the neocons and has been for some time.

Yep.

From Robert Kagan who endorsed her last month:
In 2014, Kagan foreshadowed his endorsement of Hillary Clinton during an interview with the New York Times. "I feel comfortable with her on foreign policy," he said. "If she pursues a policy which we think she will pursue, it's something that might have been called neocon, but clearly her supporters are not going to call it that; they are going to call it something else."


Who is Robert Kagan?
Kagan was a cofounder of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a now defunct pressure group that helped build Beltway support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq throughout the 1990s and early 2000s. In the early years of the Obama administration, he reprised this role as a cofounder of the Foreign Policy Initiative, a PNAC successor group.

In 1997, in a bid to press the Clinton administration to pursue a "Reaganite" foreign policy, Kagan and veteran neoconservative activist William Kristol cofounded the Project for the New American Century (PNAC). Among other hawkish policies, the group played a key role in building elite support for a U.S. invasion of Iraq, issuing an open letter after the 9/11 attacks arguing that the United States should respond by invading Iraq "even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack."
 
Spending $500 million in training and equipping rebels and mercenaries sent from the Gulf states.

If that is providing no material support - then I'd like to know what qualifies as providing material support.

I said next to no material support. And it is almost nothing because they "trained" very few and gave very little in the way of weapons.
 
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