I'm not sure how sprites were made for older games from the 80s/early 90s, but did most developers really take in consideration the scanlines when drawing them?
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Scanline screenshot thread. Because 240p is all the p's I need.
- Thread starter Peltz
- Start date
XANDER CAGE
Member
Yeah. There are some games that used it to fudge certain effects, like transparency (I believe waterfalls in Sonic did this). Color bleed also created the illusion of finer detail than was truly possible. Someone here posted some really good comparison images of like, cobblestone in Final Fantasy that highlighted the effect.
Wow... Those make the wait for my copy of Dracula X even more painful.
And Gunners Heaven... <3
Is it me, the camera, or are you actually playing with a bit of a magenta-dominant?
The white balance is likely slightly off, I take photos in my phone camera's pro/manual mode - I set ISO, shutter speed, aperture all manually alongside white balance.
my phone (huawei p9) has an awesome camera
nah its all good, it's definitely my camera!
Absolutely. Wouldn't you expect an artist to want their work to look as good as possible? Scanlines, color bleed, etc. Everyone used CRTs, so the equipment they used had these same properties, and they definitely took advantage(/worked around) of them.
Yes. Get a broadcast CRT that accepts RGB input. Really, anything that takes RGB and is in decent condition is likely to be good.
If you want more pronounced dark lines get something with more lines of resolution. Anything above 450 lines will be pretty pronounced. 600 lines is fairly standard/average for many PVMs that will look like a lot of the pics you're seeing in this thread.
As much as I like scanlines, this isnt really true. Games weren't made with scanlines in mind, if by scanlines we mean the heavy black lines in between the actual scanlines. Retro games are being presented a certain way as of the past few years that isn't representative of how most of us saw the games growing up. Gamers have been obtaining scanline generators, PVMs and other high end broadcast monitors for those pronounced scanlines. But these games, like live television, were made for consumers with consumer CRTs, not video professionals with $15,000 monitors.
Looking at old magazine ads, TV commercials and the backs of boxes will give a better idea of how the games weren't meant to be seen. That was mainly with very soft, faint scanlines or even nonexistent lines. Actually, the heavy dark lines of some filters, broadcast monitors and line generators ruin the visuals in some games... the graphics don't come together how they should with a CRT that has a softer image. I will say that heavy scanlines or not, they do look better than the plain image of a fixed pixel display.
Anyway, crossposting some pics I took of AM2R.
Theonik
Member
I guess I'll give it a go. Have a few Sony PVMs stored somewhere from back in the day.
Oh just casual as, lol. Lucky you!
As much as I like scanlines, this isnt really true. Games weren't made with scanlines in mind, if by scanlines we mean the heavy black lines in between the actual scanlines. Retro games are being presented a certain way as of the past few years that isn't representative of how most of us saw the games growing up. Gamers have been obtaining scanline generators, PVMs and other high end broadcast monitors for those pronounced scanlines. But these games, like live television, were made for consumers with consumer CRTs, not video professionals with $15,000 monitors.
Looking at old magazine ads, TV commercials and the backs of boxes will give a better idea of how the games weren't meant to be seen. That was mainly with very soft, faint scanlines or even nonexistent lines. Actually, the heavy dark lines of some filters, broadcast monitors and line generators ruin the visuals in some games... the graphics don't come together how they should with a CRT that has a softer image. I will say that heavy scanlines or not, they do look better than the plain image of a fixed pixel display.
Anyway, crossposting some pics I took of AM2R.
I think it really depends on the developer. It's hard to conclude any universal truths about what an artist intends without hearing it straight from their mouth. There are many arcade cabinets with very visible scanlines, for example, which is how we played them back in the 90s. Many other arcade cabinets display 240p with a very soft or nearly invisible scanline effect. It all just depends.
Most consumer sets I've seen don't seem give off extremely perceptible scanlines at a moderate viewing distance. But some larger ones do.
Quick question: how are you running that at 240p?
I wonder about those arcades. Wouldn't many have aftermarket replacement tubes manufactured in the 00s with higher specs (high TVL, distinct lines) compared to the original discarded tubes from the 80s or 90s? But arcades are one thing. I just don't think any home console video games were designed with a broadcast monitor in mind. Their TVL is incredibly high, the phosphor types are different, colors and color temp are different, CRT glow that is minimal next to consumer sets, the phosphor arrangement is different (grille vs mask) giving the picture a different look, no color bleed, they can't replicate color and transparency effects from artifacts, the scanline gaps are huge and pixels that are meant to come together and blend into coherent visuals (clouds in the sky) simply don't or at least not as well as they should.
Crossposting my answer from another thread:
Install CRT Emudriver so that Windows can generate 15KHz resolutions. Use a VGA to Scart cable into a scart switch or a VGA to RGBHV BNC cable directly into the RGB monitor. Your PC needs a Radeon HD 7xxx or earlier and Windows XP, 7 and I think it now works with 8.
Let's see some S-Video CRT pics of AM2R. This is on my shadowmask JVC, no (very) distinct scanlines!
mntorankusu
Member
How did you get that going through S-Video? I have been toying with it for a while, and I've been able to get a beautiful 240p, RGB picture out of my computer, but I don't have an RGB display so I've just been waiting around until I can find one. If I could get S-Video then I could just use my Trinitron, which I'd rather keep anyway.
Some are fanless and low profile cards. A slim, compact HTPC is entirely doable.
I'm using a RGB to S-Video/Composite converter box at the end of my output chain. I have my consoles connected to a switch with multiple outputs, most going to various RGB monitors. One of these outputs is also piping out RGB, but it has the converter catching the RGB signal and turning it into the lossy signals before it reaches the S-Video monitor at the end of the chain, the one you see in those photos.
davidwhangchoi
Member
Finally got around to taking some pics, which proved a pain in the behind. I used a portrait lens with a narrow field of view, but better than nothing...
Taken from a Sony PVM-20L2:
loooks great
mntorankusu
Member
Which box are you using?
This one. http://www.ambery.com/rgrgtotvcosc.html
I got it on ebay, from the same California seller as above. It's steep but it does what it says. I couldn't find any other that does this or any other seller offering this exact model. I wonder where he sourced this from. No clues from the packaging, casing or the inside electronics when I unscrewed it open.
There's a really cheap converter ($10) on eBay and Alibaba that says VGA to TV converter, complete with Composite and S-video outputs... but I'm not sure if the input is 15KHz RGB like the one I got, or only 31KHz 480p RGBHV.
Looked around: yeah, the $10 converters seem to be no good for 240p/480i RGB consoles. From an eBay listing for one:
mntorankusu
Member
Yeah, that's why I wanted to ask you about the specific adapter you're using. Even the cheap ones that do work with a 15KHz input seem to do do some kind of digital conversion and always output 480i.
Finally got around to taking some pics, which proved a pain in the behind. I used a portrait lens with a narrow field of view, but better than nothing...
Taken from a Sony PVM-20L2:
Nice pics, but what Zelda game is this?
sixteen-bit
Member
looks like A Link to the Past
I never played much Zelda (or Mario for that matter) I'm afraid, and my Snes only ever had SFIIT and my neighbour's Mario Kart in it.
I am going to try it out though.
Wow, I'm jealous you get to experience it for the first time. Enjoy.
I'd recommend it. Iconic game with a lovely musical score
I wonder about those arcades. Wouldn't many have aftermarket replacement tubes manufactured in the 00s with higher specs (high TVL, distinct lines) compared to the original discarded tubes from the 80s or 90s? But arcades are one thing. I just don't think any home console video games were designed with a broadcast monitor in mind. Their TVL is incredibly high, the phosphor types are different, colors and color temp are different, CRT glow that is minimal next to consumer sets, the phosphor arrangement is different (grille vs mask) giving the picture a different look, no color bleed, they can't replicate color and transparency effects from artifacts, the scanline gaps are huge and pixels that are meant to come together and blend into coherent visuals (clouds in the sky) simply don't or at least not as well as they should.
Crossposting my answer from another thread:
Install CRT Emudriver so that Windows can generate 15KHz resolutions. Use a VGA to Scart cable into a scart switch or a VGA to RGBHV BNC cable directly into the RGB monitor. Your PC needs a Radeon HD 7xxx or earlier and Windows XP, 7 and I think it now works with 8.
Let's see some S-Video CRT pics of AM2R. This is on my shadowmask JVC, no (very) distinct scanlines!
I definitely prefer this style of display. The only reason I stick with a PVM is the amount of control it gives me over the geometry and presets
sixteen-bit
Member
demoscene shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79qe-hQ2by0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79qe-hQ2by0
MightyHedgehog
Member
Despite being so simple, SMB always manages to look great. Basically the perfect level of softness for that shot, IMO.
sixteen-bit
Member
great pics mega
angelic
Banned
I cant find anything online about this, a darius 1 ps4 port?
I said wow.
Yeah, was just released a couple of days ago in Japan PSN. A US release shouldn't be too far now.