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Shadow Tactics |OT| A worthy Commandos spiritual successor [PS4/X1 on August 1st]

M

More_Badass

Member
I don't know if it's because I haven't played enough stealth games, but the AI here seems really good. They get suspicious and investigate if someone goes missing. They track footprints in snow (awesome mechanic BTW). And the vision cone is so smartly designed, in how you have time to move and escape before an enemy fully notices you, rather than being instantly alerted when you enter their sight
 
O.DOGG

O.DOGG

Member
I had some Steam credit lying around so I bought this along with Commandos 2 since it's ridiculously cheap right now and my original CDs are long gone.

Spent a good couple of hours trying to pass the demo mission without killing anyone. Must have reloaded 100+ times but I managed to do it somehow. I doubt I'll try that again :) Looking forward to playing the second mission after work today as I never finished it in the demo.
 
S

Sloane

Banned
More_Badass said:
I don't know if it's because I haven't played enough stealth games, but the AI here seems really good. They get suspicious and investigate if someone goes missing. They track footprints in snow (awesome mechanic BTW). And the vision cone is so smartly designed, in how you have time to move and escape before an enemy fully notices you, rather than being instantly alerted when you enter their sight
Click to expand...
Yeah. The only thing I don't quite like is their reaction to bodies, you can still have those body pile-ups when you lure one enemy after another into the same corner and sometimes they are just like "Huh, that's weird!". Also the line of sight is a bit weird in regards to the levels; it makes sense in terms of the mechanics but it feels a bit awkward in the beginning when you notice that you can just kill a guy on the roof because the ten enemies below who should in reality be able to see it, will never notice. But, yeah, other than that the AI is very nicely done.
 
G

Gotchaye

Member
I tried out the demo last night. It's fun and I've wishlisted it, but I'm not sold on it at its current price. I just last month played Invisible, Inc. for the first time, which is an incredible game that I think does a better job of a lot of what Shadow Tactics is trying to do, so that's probably coloring my opinion.

I'm not convinced that it being real-time is worth it. Especially with multiple characters, you're not actually playing it like a real-time game - you have a ton of time to set everything up and get into position and then you hide in the bushes and except when absolutely necessary go through the guards systematically one by one. And the controls are pretty awkward trying to deal with multiple characters and their various abilities. Shadow mode for issuing simultaneous orders to several characters is a band-aid that didn't seem to work that well. I sometimes felt like the main obstacle to doing what I wanted was just my ability to issue the appropriate commands quickly enough.

The guard behavior also seemed pretty silly. I get the need for this sort of artifice - always the same patterns, not becoming alarmed that a patrol never checked in, running over to investigate bodies without alerting anybody else - but for me it clashes with the ways that the game tries to not feel so game-y.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Gotchaye said:
I tried out the demo last night. It's fun and I've wishlisted it, but I'm not sold on it at its current price. I just last month played Invisible, Inc. for the first time, which is an incredible game that I think does a better job of a lot of what Shadow Tactics is trying to do, so that's probably coloring my opinion.

I'm not convinced that it being real-time is worth it. Especially with multiple characters, you're not actually playing it like a real-time game - you have a ton of time to set everything up and get into position and then you hide in the bushes and except when absolutely necessary go through the guards systematically one by one. And the controls are pretty awkward trying to deal with multiple characters and their various abilities. Shadow mode for issuing simultaneous orders to several characters is a band-aid that didn't seem to work that well. I sometimes felt like the main obstacle to doing what I wanted was just my ability to issue the appropriate commands quickly enough.
Click to expand...

y'mean what it needs is a "issue orders while paused" function.

is so evident that i can't help but think that they refused to add it on purpose. (or they did add it and i couldnt find it)
 
S

Sloane

Banned
forgeforsaken said:
I've seen patrolling captains go into heightened but not full alert if someone is missing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, definitely, happens all the time.

Invisible, Inc. is great but it's a very different game being almost completely random among other things. Shadow Tactics (as well as Commandos and Desperados for that matter) is as much a puzzle game as it is a stealth game, maybe a little bit like Hitman, in the sense that you have to find (and create) opportunities to take out the one guard who isn't being watched by someone else for at least a moment. Everything's very careful arranged for the player to progress and you're slicing away layer after layer of enemies, which is quite the opposite feeling at least I get from playing Invisible, Inc..
 
G

Granjinha

Member
More_Badass said:
I don't know if it's because I haven't played enough stealth games, but the AI here seems really good. They get suspicious and investigate if someone goes missing. They track footprints in snow (awesome mechanic BTW). And the vision cone is so smartly designed, in how you have time to move and escape before an enemy fully notices you, rather than being instantly alerted when you enter their sight
Click to expand...

It's good, but not really anything "new" in this sub-genre. Commandos and Desperados had great AI, too.

Gotchaye said:
I tried out the demo last night. It's fun and I've wishlisted it, but I'm not sold on it at its current price. I just last month played Invisible, Inc. for the first time, which is an incredible game that I think does a better job of a lot of what Shadow Tactics is trying to do, so that's probably coloring my opinion.

I'm not convinced that it being real-time is worth it. Especially with multiple characters, you're not actually playing it like a real-time game - you have a ton of time to set everything up and get into position and then you hide in the bushes and except when absolutely necessary go through the guards systematically one by one. And the controls are pretty awkward trying to deal with multiple characters and their various abilities. Shadow mode for issuing simultaneous orders to several characters is a band-aid that didn't seem to work that well. I sometimes felt like the main obstacle to doing what I wanted was just my ability to issue the appropriate commands quickly enough.

The guard behavior also seemed pretty silly. I get the need for this sort of artifice - always the same patterns, not becoming alarmed that a patrol never checked in, running over to investigate bodies without alerting anybody else - but for me it clashes with the ways that the game tries to not feel so game-y.
Click to expand...

I don't really see how they try to do the same thing, apart from being in the same genre (not the same sub-genre, though)

The solutions are much more puzzle like in Shadow Tactics, while Invisible Inc is a much more systems based game. I also completely disagree with the notion that you're not actually "playing" in real time just because things take time to unfold. Real time, especially in this style of game is absolutely worth it. You have to watch patrols, wait until someone walking somewhere doesn't clash with your carefully laid plan to kill only one guard, etc. This dynamic wouldn't be there if this was a turn-based game.
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
Commandos, Desperados, Robin etc. were all puzzle games as much as tactics ones. The latter missions had very few ways of winning them.
 
H

heringer

Member
More_Badass said:
I don't know if it's because I haven't played enough stealth games, but the AI here seems really good. They get suspicious and investigate if someone goes missing. They track footprints in snow (awesome mechanic BTW). And the vision cone is so smartly designed, in how you have time to move and escape before an enemy fully notices you, rather than being instantly alerted when you enter their sight
Click to expand...

Those are all staples of the genre, but yeah, it's well done. I'm sure the snow footprints are a reference to the original MGS.
 
G

Gotchaye

Member
Granjinha said:
I don't really see how they try to do the same thing, apart from being in the same genre (not the same sub-genre, though)
Click to expand...
I mean, they're top-down, party-based stealth games with very similar guard behavior and very similar ways for the player to deal with guards, and they both play very deliberately, emphasizing having a plan for approaching each new situation. They're doing pretty similar things! They have much more in common with each other than either does with many other games that you could reasonably classify as "stealth games". Absolutely, they've got their differences, and both seem to be worth playing even if you've played the other, etc., but I think it's pretty fair to compare the different ways that they solve certain problems and talk about which one seems to you to do the better job.[/quote]

The solutions are much more puzzle like in Shadow Tactics, while Invisible Inc is a much more systems based game. I also completely disagree with the notion that you're not actually "playing" in real time just because things take time to unfold. Real time, especially in this style of game is absolutely worth it. You have to watch patrols, wait until someone walking somewhere doesn't clash with your carefully laid plan to kill only one guard, etc. This dynamic wouldn't be there if this was a turn-based game.
Click to expand...
It's less that it is real-time at all that bothers me and more that the other game systems don't seem to me to mesh well with that. There's no time pressure - here's a place where Invisible, Inc.'s slowly-incrementing alarm system makes a lot of sense. It's very awkward getting your several dudes to all work together without something like a pause function - you can achieve a similar result with shadow mode, but this is harder to deal with and also throws the weirdness of infinitely recurring patrols in your face.
 
H

HashtagLapsed

Member
I'm cool with it being real time and while the shadow system is a little awkward I find it works well. I do sympathise with a lot of your points though.

After replaying Pillars of Eternity and playing Tyranny lately I have to say when things have gotten hairy in Shadow Tactics I have instinctively mashed the space bar to pause the game, heh.
 
D

DrSlek

Member
I played the first 2 missions yesterday. I fucking loved it. Really scratched an itch I've had for many years. I really feel the need to try and complete the first mission without killing anyone.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
The mission where you get the spy and the sniper back is the kinda thing that simply hasn't been done in years. God damn. Two places to get disguises, and several ways to approach any of those places, then another several ways to get to the sniper.

Then you finish the level, see the challenges, and realize that why, yes, it is possible to complete the level without killing anyone but key targets. And to complete it without using disguises at all. And several other things. God damn.

Same happened at the third level, when you see that there is some god damned way to get the docs while completely ignoring one objective.

Gods, i love how so much is completely optional.


Spy, as usual, is by far the most useful character in these kinds of games.
 
C

chrixter

Member
I've never played Commandos or Desperados so I can't speak to how I think Shadow Tactics compares, but I'm really, really enjoying it. Maps are well-designed and challenging. None of the playable characters feel like throwaways, though the trap girl has been the least useful for me so far.

The ability to pause would be appreciated, though. Sometimes I find myself struggling to display the dexterity required to execute more coordinated tactics in real-time. Shadow Mode's utility is limited in this regard since it permits only one action per character.
 
X

Xeteh

Member
I wish this game had come out a little further before/after Christmas. Money is too tight to dive in for the current price so I'll wait but the demo is amazing. I hadn't heard at all about this game until earlier today and as soon as I read "Commandos spiritual successor" I knew I had to try it. My brother and I played so much Behind Enemy Lines back in the day and this game hits all those notes. Definitely picking this up sooner rather than later.

Edit: Damn, demo is timed. Was hoping I could play through two full missions.
 
H

HashtagLapsed

Member
Something I would like to see added to this game, over time, would be customizable difficulty options kinda like Invisible Inc. So you could set up 1HP per character but have normal sight timings, limited saves per level etc.
 
M

More_Badass

Member
chrixter said:
I've never played Commandos or Desperados so I can't speak to how I think Shadow Tactics compares, but I'm really, really enjoying it. Maps are well-designed and challenging. None of the playable characters feel like throwaways, though the trap girl has been the least useful for me so far.

The ability to pause would be appreciated, though. Sometimes I find myself struggling to display the dexterity required to execute more coordinated tactics in real-time. Shadow Mode's utility is limited in this regard since it permits only one action per character.
Click to expand...
Being real time is a part of the Commandos appeal. You need to consider where you're hiding to plan, react and improvise on the fly, be more cautious in your observations because you can't just pause to study the area, etc.
 
O

Oynox

Member
More_Badass said:
Being real time is a part of the Commandos appeal. You need to consider where you're hiding to plan, react and improvise on the fly, be more cautious in your observations because you can't just pause to study the area, etc.
Click to expand...
Thats a huge difference to Desperados since it was built around those Quick Actions which made it possible to perform perfectly timed team combos. That is something I missed from the demo actually.
 
D

Dascu

Member
Coriolanus said:
The mission where you get the spy and the sniper back is the kinda thing that simply hasn't been done in years. God damn. Two places to get disguises, and several ways to approach any of those places, then another several ways to get to the sniper.

Then you finish the level, see the challenges, and realize that why, yes, it is possible to complete the level without killing anyone but key targets. And to complete it without using disguises at all. And several other things. God damn.

Same happened at the third level, when you see that there is some god damned way to get the docs while completely ignoring one objective.

Gods, i love how so much is completely optional.


Spy, as usual, is by far the most useful character in these kinds of games.
Click to expand...

Some of the challenges, like on that mission, seem really tough. I'm looking forward to
(watching other people's videos on how they)
achieve them.
 
D

Dantero

Member
Oynox said:
Thats a huge difference to Desperados since it was built around those Quick Actions which made it possible to perform perfectly timed team combos. That is something I missed from the demo actually.
Click to expand...

I don't really remember Desperados' way of doing this but isn't shadow mode what you want? You can assign actions to every single character and choose which one you want to activate or just activate all at the same time.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Dantero said:
I don't really remember Desperados' way of doing this but isn't shadow mode what you want? You can assign actions to every single character and choose which one you want to activate or just activate all at the same time.
Click to expand...

the prob with shado-mode is that you can only assign one action per character, no?
So say you program a 3 character execute, sure you can prog them to kill and grab the corpse, but you'll still have to give individual orders to every single one of them to hide the corpses.

Allowing action chains would alleviate that a tad.
 
D

Dantero

Member
Coriolanus said:
the prob with shado-mode is that you can only assign one action per character, no?
So say you program a 3 character execute, sure you can prog them to kill and grab the corpse, but you'll still have to give individual orders to every single one of them to hide the corpses.

Allowing action chains would alleviate that a tad.
Click to expand...

Is that the way it worked in Desperados? It might make things a little too easy considering the game was made without chaining abilities in mind.
With that said I would like them, cause my micromanagement skills with mouse and keyboard are pretty bad and I like not feeling pressured in tactical/stealth games.
 
T

taoofjord

Member
Wow, I haven't thought about Commandos in years. I used to love those games. So happy I dropped into this thread, definitely picking up Shadow Tactics.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Dantero said:
Is that the way it worked in Desperados? It might make things a little too easy considering the game was made without chaining abilities in mind.
Click to expand...

i mean...if they were worried about that, they'd try to restrain savescumming in some form, like, say, not allowing the player to save more than once per minute. Once they allowed that....
 
S

Sloane

Banned
Dascu said:
Some of the challenges, like on that mission, seem really tough. I'm looking forward to
(watching other people's videos on how they)
achieve them.
Click to expand...
Yeah, not sure how (almost) non-lethal runs are supposed to work considering how quickly knocked out enemies wake up again. No way I'm going to do this, but looking forward to other people trying.
 
D

Dantero

Member
Coriolanus said:
i mean...if they were worried about that, they'd try to restrain savescumming in some form, like, say, not allowing the player to save more than once per minute. Once they allowed that....
Click to expand...

Are there even any modern stealth games without save scumming that aren't rogue-likes?
 
H

Hank Scorpio

Member
Oh wow this flew under my radar. Just saw TheKotti of Hitman fame playing it on youtube. Looks lovely. Any word on when the PS4 version is out?
 
T

The Illiterati

Member
Sloane said:
Yeah, not sure how (almost) non-lethal runs are supposed to work considering how quickly knocked out enemies wake up again. No way I'm going to do this, but looking forward to other people trying.
Click to expand...

I would assume you're going to have to do more distracting and moving across the map without touching enemies. Knocking them out gets everyone irritated, so I can't imagine that working for an entire map.
 
E

Emarv

Member
Sadly, I'm unfamiliar with Commandos or any of those games. But watching that trailer and the setup of multiple synchronized kills, I get strong vibes of like Door Kickers.

Is it as semi-real time/tactical as Door Kickers? If not, someone needs to make a stealth Door Kickers asap.

Edit: Oh it has a demo. Cool. I'll try that then!
 
D

diggmcbadass

Member
I picked this up from gog tonight (just launching on gog is a plus in my book) and it seems really good so far. Played tons of Commandos and Desperados back in the day, but that is starting to get 15 years ago. God damn I'm old.
 
H

HashtagLapsed

Member
diggmcbadass said:
I picked this up from gog tonight (just launching on gog is a plus in my book) and it seems really good so far. Played tons of Commandos and Desperados back in the day, but that is starting to get 15 years ago. God damn I'm old.
Click to expand...

You are only as old as you feel, friend!
I feel way older than 29 ;~;

The fourth level is really, really great. Trying to find all of the
bird statue/secret passages
now.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
HashtagLapsed said:
The fourth level is really, really great. Trying to find all of the
bird statue/secret passages
now.
Click to expand...

don't bother with trying to find the
bird statues
. trust me. You'll understand why as soon as you rescue the dude.

can always press h to highlight everything, tho.
 
F

F0NZ

Member
Played the demo based on everyone's impressions. Quickly proceeded to purchase the full game and am 6 hours deep. #thankyoubasedGAF for bringing this gem to my attention.
 
H

HashtagLapsed

Member
Coriolanus said:
don't bother with trying to find the
bird statues
. trust me. You'll understand why as soon as you rescue the dude.

can always press h to highlight everything, tho.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that tip, mate.

I assumed they would link up like the other passages and you need to unlock each entry/exit.

The fourth stage really is fantastic.
 
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