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[Maximo]

"Okay we're done being savages, you can come in now"

 

[Staccat0]

Having a morally superior diet doesn't excuse you from being disrespectful and rude.

This feels right in my gut, but probably just becuase I am used to the status quo, right? In regards to any other major societal issue I'll tolerate a little rudeness. Cutting rain forests down for nicer looking steaks is pretty rude.

 

[joe2187]

Oh wow

I agree.

Working in the food industry ive learned there are two kinds of vegans.

Those who know what they want and let you know ahead of time that they are vegan and any modifications we can make (which we are more than happy to do) and those that wait till the last minute to say they only eat vegan, throw a fit, start talking about "murder" and make every bodys dining experience worse because they want to feel morally superior.

 

[SomTervo]

Plants have "code" in their DNA for survival just as much as pain is a survival technique. They all make an effort to survive. I don't believe plants grow and "live" to be eaten at their own volition any more than animals do.

--

meat-eaters sounds coded

Are you being serious with this?

 

[SomTervo]

This would be a huge dick move but man, the vegans in this thread are shook over it lol. Some Game of Thrones shit.

It's a fucking nasty, callous thing to do.

 

[Hypron]

Plants have "code" in their DNA for survival just as much as pain is a survival technique. They all make an effort to survive. I don't believe plants grow and "live" to be eaten at their own volition any more than animals do.

--

meat-eaters sounds coded

Even if eating plants was anywhere near eating animals from a moral perspective (it's not), being vegan world still be better since you'd be eating the plants directly instead of eating animals that eat plants (or that eat other animals that eat plants based on where they are in the food chain). You'd still be minimizing how much "plant suffering" you're causing.

It's a fucking nasty, callous thing to do.

If someone pulled that shit on me I'd cut them off from my life instantly. That level of disrespect is not something I need in my life.

 

[frankie_baby]

An special catering for a vegan is a privilege not a right howver to expect people to spoil their own meal to accommodate then they should expect ridicule

 

[Replicant]

Sounds rude as fuck to me.

You already provided an alternative for him and your sister so it's not like they're being left high and dry. His inability to tolerate others who are different from him is the problem.

 

[Izuna]

Are you being serious with this?

Yes, I am being serious. If not, I would regard it morally wrong to eat meat and otherwise wouldn't. It's an opinion much like "animals aren't on Earth for our benefit" is an opinion.

I don't believe life, through all its mutations and striving to procreate ever decides that its purpose is to be eaten by others. At least, outside of producing fruit with the plan to have seeds shat out and planted throughout the environment.

 

[ironmang]

For a family meal once in awhile? No, not really absurd at all.

It's not absurd to ask someone else to buy, learn to prepare, cook, and eat food they aren't interested in just to please someone else's dietary choices? Glad there's no vegans in my family lol.

 

[Soldiussnaku]

Should've gone out there and told him to get the 'fuck over himself, then shame him for being such a disrespectful dickhole and making his partner who he supposed to love look bad in front of her parents.

 

[Staccat0]

Should've gone out there and told him to get the 'fuck over himself, then shame him for being such a disrespectful dickhole and making his partner who he supposed to love look bad in front of her parents.

Probably not worth it.

 

[frankie_baby]

Should have prepared all of the vegan options with chicken broth or fish sauce and then came outside and told him afterwards.

Haha brilliant idea

I think even preparing secondary options to meet their diet choices is going above and beyond. Suggesting the host only prepares vegan food and expect everybody to eat it is kind of absurd.

Exactly, catering to a requirement such as an allergy is acceptable, but to choices is just stupid, i dont like broccoli but i wouldnt expect a host not to serve it

 

[Izuna]

Even if eating plants was anywhere near eating animals from a moral perspective (it's not), being vegan world still be better since you'd be eating the plants directly instead of eating animals that eat plants (or that eat other animals that eat plants based on where they are in the food chain). You'd still be minimizing how much "plant suffering" you're causing.

But if there's no way to reduce suffering in order to live (suffering is a subjective matter at least philosophically), then it isn't of any importance to reduce it. That's not the same as say, not finding any pleasure -- only doing what's necessary.

My point is, regardless of plants vs. animals on a morality spectrum, I don't see the evidence that all humans could be vegan and survive. So the last thing I would do is care to achieve such a goal regardless of its possibility.

So in other words, this is why I'm not a vegan.

--

Honestly, a side-point is that I thought about this and have read/listened to arguments but I'm not convinced it is "objectively better". People saying such things are making a statement that the rest of us are wrong, at least in the aspect of what we eat. Of course people will take it upon themselves to disagree when they can.

Even if it's as simple as saying "I LOVE STEAK!" or "More meat me for me then."

 

[Turbo Killer]

This would be a huge dick move but man, the vegans in this thread are shook over it lol. Some Game of Thrones shit.

The red wedding vegan style, lol.

 

[HardRojo]

"I can't sit in a table with people who are beneath me feed on animals"
Fuck that attitude, it doesn't matter if you're vegan or not, that's a ridiculous stance to take when you're socializing with family and it's a surefire way to never getting invited back and be disliked by your SO's family.

 

[The Artisan]

OP were they disrespectful about it? if your sister said something like "I'm sorry...if you don't mind it's just the smell bothering me" then perhaps it's not that bad. If they said something like "we don't want to be around this food consumption, we just don't think it's right," and don't want to be in the same room as that then it's coming off as a little condescending.

 

[norog]

Yes, I am being serious. If not, I would regard it morally wrong to eat meat and otherwise wouldn't. It's an opinion much like "animals aren't on Earth for our benefit" is an opinion.

I don't believe life, through all its mutations and striving to procreate ever decides that its purpose is to be eaten by others. At least, outside of producing fruit with the plan to have seeds shat out and planted throughout the environment.

To add to this: I have serious respect for a strict Jainist diet, since it considers not just the lives of plants, but also microorganisms in beer and so on. I could never follow it, but if someone's going to harp on about being morally superior, they should at least look to them as a starting point.

Western vegans seem to only care about animals, which is kinda weaksauce.

 

[Hollycat]

My girlfriend is a vegetarian but still cooks for me sometimes and is amazing. But I swear some of the most annoying people ive ever met will not shut up about being a vegan and why its superior.
Ive met plenty who are great, but the "how dare you eat that in front of me" ones kill it.

 

[Maximo]

Should have prepared all of the vegan options with chicken broth or fish sauce and then came outside and told him afterwards.

 

[Izuna]

OP were they disrespectful about it? if your sister said something like "I'm sorry...if you don't mind it's just the smell bothering me" then perhaps it's not that bad. If they said something like "we don't want to be around this food consumption, we just don't think it's right," and don't want to be in the same room as that then it's coming off as a little condescending.

I don't think OP has ever mentioned if it was the smell. More that they disagreed with being around people eating fish. Like you know, this thing we call having dinner with family... even after the politeness to accommodate.

 

[Mass Effect]

I'd just be like "whatever" and not invite him over anymore.

 

[SomTervo]

Yes, I am being serious. If not, I would regard it morally wrong to eat meat and otherwise wouldn't. It's an opinion much like "animals aren't on Earth for our benefit" is an opinion.

I don't believe life, through all its mutations and striving to procreate ever decides that its purpose is to be eaten by others. At least, outside of producing fruit with the plan to have seeds shat out and planted throughout the environment.

... Wo.

- the plant-based food industry does no environmental damage and isn't responsible for killing wider ecologies of animals (Every fish you eat - even a sustainably farmed one - on average includes killing tens of other fish. For a tiny example.)
- plant based foods cause less waste than meat/dairy by a factor of thousands
- plants don't have pain based nervous systems. Like bugs, they are just machines in the basest sense. The "code" may be there but it doesn't mean shit. Compare that to pigs and other eaten mammals have sentience and sensory capabilities similar to humans, who are essentially enslaved

The fact i have to explain any of this is mind boggling, tbh

 

[Izuna]

To add to this: I have serious respect for a strict Jainist diet, since it considers not just the lives of plants, but also microorganisms in beer and so on. I could never follow it, but if someone's going to harp on about being morally superior, they should at least look to them as a starting point.

Western vegans seem to only care about animals, which is kinda weaksauce.

A quick google search shows that they have some religious-like beliefs such as not eating after sunset which isn't exactly logical.

 

[Hypron]

But if there's no way to reduce suffering in order to live (suffering is a subjective matter at least philosophically), then it isn't of any importance to reduce it. That's not the same as say, not finding any pleasure -- only doing what's necessary.

My point is, regardless of plants vs. animals on a morality spectrum, I don't see the evidence that all humans could be vegan and survive. So the last thing I would do is care to achieve such a goal regardless of its possibility.

So in other words, this is why I'm not a vegan.

--

Honestly, a side-point is that I thought about this and have read/listened to arguments but I'm not convinced it is "objectively better". People saying such things are making a statement that the rest of us are wrong, at least in the aspect of what we eat. Of course people will take it upon themselves to disagree when they can.

Even if it's as simple as saying "I LOVE STEAK!" or "More meat me for me then."

But you can reduce suffering. Thus your whole point sounds to me like "if you can't be perfect let's not make any effort." To me that's not a good attitude to have for anything in life.

 

[Izuna]

... Wo.

- the plant-based food industry does no environmental damage and isn't responsible for killing wider ecologies of animals (Every fish you eat - even a sustainably farmed one - on average includes killing tens of other fish. For a tiny example.)
- plant based foods cause less waste than meat/dairy by a factor of thousands
- plants don't have pain based nervous systems. Like bugs, they are just machines in the basest sense. The "code" may be there but it doesn't mean shit. Compare that to pigs and other eaten mammals have sentience and sensory capabilities similar to humans, who are essentially enslaved

The fact i have to explain any of this is mind boggling, tbh

Okay, I'm trying to enjoy Hannibal atm before I have to sleep but I believe all three points you mention are actually myths. It will take me some time to format a response -- if this thread is still up tomorrow I'll give my reply if no one else has.

I'd rather not post what little I can recollect.

 

[frankie_baby]

... Wo.

- the plant-based food industry does no environmental damage and isn't responsible for killing wider ecologies of animals (Every fish you eat - even a sustainably farmed one - on average includes killing tens of other fish. For a tiny example.)
- plant based foods cause less waste than meat/dairy by a factor of thousands
- plants don't have pain based nervous systems. Like bugs, they are just machines in the basest sense. The "code" may be there but it doesn't mean shit. Compare that to pigs and other eaten mammals have sentience and sensory capabilities similar to humans, who are essentially enslaved

The fact i have to explain any of this is mind boggling, tbh

The first point certainly isnt true

 

[Elandyll]

He disrespected the hosts. That's a problem.

Also the fact that it's supposed to be a family vacation I imagine, a chance for OP and his parents to spend time with his sister.

Now it looks like meals together are off, or they all have to eat Vegan (which let me remind you is not Vegetarian: animal products like milk, butter, cheese and eggs are also barred afaik.)

Seems insane that one person would manage to screw a family vacay that much with everybody catering to his whims tbh.

 

[EmiPrime]

But you can reduce suffering. Thus your whole point sounds to me like "if you can't be perfect let's not make any effort." To me that's not a good attitude to have for anything in life.

Yep it's a lazy moral argument.

 

[Man God]

... Wo.

- the plant-based food industry does no environmental damage and isn't responsible for killing wider ecologies of animals (Every fish you eat - even a sustainably farmed one - on average includes killing tens of other fish. For a tiny example.)
- plant based foods cause less waste than meat/dairy by a factor of thousands
- plants don't have pain based nervous systems. Like bugs, they are just machines in the basest sense. The "code" may be there but it doesn't mean shit. Compare that to pigs and other eaten mammals have sentience and sensory capabilities similar to humans, who are essentially enslaved

The fact i have to explain any of this is mind boggling, tbh

It's not entirely true that plant based food industry causes no harm. There's vast amounts of water being wasted on the almond crop in California among others.

It is on the whole much less destructive but there are plenty of other examples of stupendously inefficient crops like coffee and cacao that are doing real environmental harm.

 

[SomTervo]

point is, regardless of plants vs. animals on a morality spectrum, I don't see the evidence that all humans could be vegan and survive. So the last thing I would do is care to achieve such a goal regardless of its possibility.

There is no evidence of that, because it's not true. At least presently, some people absolutely cannot be vegan. And that's fine.

The problem is everything is flipped the other way. Instead of plants being the sustainable norm, meat and dairy are the norm and totally unsustainable for everyone on the planet. Even if the entire meat industry moved to a "local, free range" cow harvesting system, the earth would literally run out of physical space to meet demand. It's impossible to do meet the projected demand without destroying all of our rainforest for feed and pasture (and the climate is already seeing the impact of that).

This philosophical argument is ridiculous - that's a footnote. The real issue is sustainability. Until we have sustainable meat/dairy (which IS happening) plants are literally the only sustainable food option.

It's not entirely true that plant based food industry causes no harm. There's vast amounts of water being wasted on the almond crop in California among others.

It is on the whole much less destructive but there are plenty of other examples of stupendously inefficient crops like coffee and cacao that are doing real environmental harm.

Yeah certain crops are problems - avocados are awful for the environment, which was a horrible pill to swallow for me - but literally every inefficient plant crop is a luxury crop. They can be done without.

The first point certainly isnt true

Yeah see above, it's not but it COULD be, unlike meat which is impossible to make efficient (until we can synthesise it)

 

[goldenpp72]

I'm so glad I don't know anyone like this, shit.

 

[Izuna]

But you can reduce suffering. Thus your whole point sounds to me like "if you can't be perfect let's not make any effort." To me that's not a good attitude to have for anything in life.

As mentioned, suffering isn't some clear cut thing. If we're talking about it on a morality sense, I believe that "suffering" is really just a one-size-fits-all term for many things that deal with conservation of energy, pain, inability to achieve one's goals, inconvenience etc.

My personal belief is that suffering, if I use the word in such a sense, is something that can be compromised with many other things in life.

I don't believe Happy Eggs are merely products of suffering in the sense that it is worse for all parties involved to exist.

 

[Koriandrr]

Guilt trip.


Someone went out of their way to do something, they most likely haven't done before, just to please their fancy ass tastes although they don't agree with them and he can't give the same kind of respect back?


If I was the one cooking I'd be like "yeah that's right, get off my fucking table and pull that stick out of your fucking ass while you're at it".

 

[SomTervo]

As mentioned, suffering isn't some clear cut thing. If we're talking about it on a morality sense, I believe that "suffering" is really just a one-size-fits-all term for many things that deal with conservation of energy, pain, inability to achieve one's goals, inconvenience etc.

My personal belief is that suffering, if I use the word in such a sense, is something that can be compromised with many other things in life.

I don't believe Happy Eggs are merely products of suffering in the sense that it is worse for all parties involved to exist.

Dude your logic is just insane.

"Plants feel suffering too thus IT'S OKAY TO TORTURE ALL THE ANIMALS!!!"

PS they literally, scientifically do not

 

[rainz]

Im vegan and this is silly..
Part of being vegan i've found is still respecting other peoples choices and for myself avoiding confrontation..

People get very (naturallly) defensive when someone, by their being vegan questions their food choices... A family vacation/dinner is not the place to get into things like that and going outside is going a bit far imo.. Easy way to ruin a dinner party. I get where the guy is coming from as looking at dead animals on a table these days isn't pleasant but he should have just sucked it up for his partners and familys sake and got through the dinner..

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Pity. You've put yourself on the same level as some nobhead wearing a trilby who made that same joke to me when someone told him I was vegan a few months ago which is why I prefer to keep it to myself: bored of the same tired "lol pushy vegans amirite?!" and "lol bacon" shite people with no social graces can't resist saying when they find out a vegan is in their midst.

So because I, in a thread about a holier-than-thou vegan, made a joke (in response to someone else, mind) about vegans, I am the same as someone who personally antagonized you in real life?

Whatever you say. Interesting that you felt the need to point out his choice of attire, too. Gotta go out of your way to be as judgmental as possible?

Am I missing something here?

Clearly...

Of course there is truth behind the joke. As Famassu said, a vegan has to say they are vegan in order to not being served animal products.

The joke is clearly not in reference to the context of ordering food... lol

 

[McLovin]

Be vegan for yourself, but don't shame other people for eating meat. I hope your sister was a vegan before she married that shmuck. Honestly that kind of behavior would turn me off to being a vegan.

 

[SomTervo]

Okay, I'm trying to enjoy Hannibal atm before I have to sleep but I believe all three points you mention are actually myths. It will take me some time to format a response -- if this thread is still up tomorrow I'll give my reply if no one else has.

I'd rather not post what little I can recollect.

My points were hamfisted for rhetoric and because I'm on mobile (the first one especially is a bit disingenuous) but they're based on about three years of reading (while i WASN'T a vegan and was eating meat/dairy daily).

Do your worst? Based on your rhetoric itt I'm not worried.

 

[Izuna]

This philosophical argument is ridiculous - that's a footnote. The real issue is sustainability. Until we have sustainable meat/dairy (which IS happening) plants are literally the only sustainable food option.

But this is one-dimensional thinking.

Plants as a crop may or may not be more sustainable (because full sustainability isn't possible in the longest term) but that ignores the impracticality of inconvenience on many things people decide to be important.

Veganism also disallows wool -- milk, eggs etc. while there are alternatives there isn't a solution to the problem of "how would we replace it all". Culture and cuisine be damned.

If I understand your position, it's that for sake of the environment it doesn't be as lopsided as it is -- what that really means is that the poorer you are in this preferable future, the less likely you can consume meat. Which would become a higher valued item, which would then cause the same issue we have today -- where we overproduce to meet demand because frankly, everyone wants a wedding cake and feeding a population with superfoods is far easier to do with eggs and milk than it is with Soybean.

We'd have to use GMOs to help tackle this there are battles with that already.

Ethical "cloning" seems the most sensible in that if done ideally as it appears on paper, all of your complaints about what causes animal suffering can be omitted if we get it right.

 

[frankie_baby]

Yeah see above, it's not but it COULD be, unlike meat which is impossible to make efficient (until we can synthesise it)

Well as i value taste over efficiency which is what led to humanity controlling the world i dont care

 

[Riposte]

Honestly, I would say do nothing about it and just continue as if nothing is amiss (don't hold a grudge). It's not really a big deal if they don't want to eat at the table. Maybe reconsider sending an invite next time, but then, maybe you don't want to lose your sister over this.

 

[Mau ®]

As a vegan I would be offended by that dude's behavior. Especially since a vegan option was provided.

 

[Ric Flair]

So, I just had a family dinner. My sister and her husband are vegans. The food was delicious oven-baked cod and there were was a vegan alternative for my sister and her husband.

He declared that he would not be able to sit at the same table where dead fish was being consumed and left to eat outside, followed by my sister.

How would you react to this? Would it even be possible to go through life like this? Like, how would you deal with representation dinners as work? Should we as family enable such behaviour? In the real world, such silly behaviour is not acceptable. Your ability to socialize with anyone who is not a vegan would be non-existent.

Sorry, I'm rambling (and a bit upset) and can't really put together a coherent argument. Discuss.

Coming from someone who's been Vegan, he's an idiot. Fish are the last hill I'd ever die on, I respect the intelligence of an ant more than I do a cod fish any day of the week.

 

[Izuna]

Dude your logic is just insane.

"Plants feel suffering too thus IT'S OKAY TO TORTURE ALL THE ANIMALS!!!"

PS they literally, scientifically do not

I'm sorry but isn't being Vegan, you draw the line at animals including fish, right? Just plants are permitted and especially stuff that's not a byproduct of "cruelty" food production?

It is my opinion you have a very low opinion of the purpose and struggle of plants and over-exaggeration of the "suffering" a jellyfish may have.

You don't have to call me insane for not having the same conclusion.

 

[SomTervo]

But this is one-dimensional thinking.

Plants as a crop may or may not be more sustainable (because full sustainability isn't possible in the longest term) but that ignores the impracticality of inconvenience on many things people decide to be important.

Veganism also disallows wool -- milk, eggs etc. while there are alternatives there isn't a solution to the problem of "how would we replace it all". Culture and cuisine be damned.

If I understand your position, it's that for sake of the environment it doesn't be as lopsided as it is -- what that really means is that the poorer you are in this preferable future, the less likely you can consume meat. Which would become a higher valued item, which would then cause the same issue we have today -- where we overproduce to meet demand because frankly, everyone wants a wedding cake and feeding a population with superfoods is far easier to do with eggs and milk than it is with Soybean.

We'd have to use GMOs to help tackle this there are battles with that already.

Ethical "cloning" seems the most sensible in that if done ideally as it appears on paper, all of your complaints about what causes animal suffering can be omitted if we get it right.

I'll come back tomorrow but that's a serious shift of goal posts.

And yes the point is to re-normalise culture over time. By which point we'll probably already be dead from climate change/war/whatever, but yes, obviously the entire planet cannot magically become vegan overnight.

And yes, synthesised meat/dairy (and imo easily farmable insects - ie not bees) are completely fine. Many vegans disagree with me on the insect thing.

 

[Hypron]

Dude your logic is just insane.

"Plants feel suffering too thus IT'S OKAY TO TORTURE ALL THE ANIMALS!!!"

PS they literally, scientifically do not

Yeah, usually I can see where people are coming from but that just sounds insane.

At least people that eat meat because they like the taste more than they care about animal welfare/the environmental impact it has make sense.

That argument on the other hand sounds like an extremely contrived way to justify why you're eating meat.

 

[pirateluigi]

I'm sorry but isn't being Vegan, you draw the line at animals including fish, right? Just plants are permitted and especially stuff that's not a byproduct of "cruelty" food production?

It is my opinion you have a very low opinion of the purpose and struggle of plants and over-exaggeration of the "suffering" a jellyfish may have.

You don't have to call me insane for not having the same conclusion.

Very few people, vegan or otherwise, eat jellyfish.

 

[The Artisan]

I don't think OP has ever mentioned if it was the smell. More that they disagreed with being around people eating fish. Like you know, this thing we call having dinner with family... even after the politeness to accommodate.

yeah if that is the case then it's kinda uncool. The most I can relate to something like this; no one in my family eats pork but if I were a guest in someone else's home for dinner I would just kindly ask not to put any pork on my plate and that's it. When we have Hindu family come over, they are accommodated for as well but there aren't ever any socially awkward issues arising like OP's.

 

[3rdman]

I mean, if you're vegan on a moral basis, that seems fair enough.

Like, would you sit at a table where they're carving up a whole golden retriever like a Christmas ham?

No its just fucking rude. I would have locked the door behind him the minute he took the plates outside. As a guest you should have some respect for your hosts.