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[HazySaiyan]

I gotta agree with the Goku comments. I still enjoy the show but he's become an unrepentant, uncaring idiot as opposed to the naive but heart still in the right place guy he was before. The way he especially acts around gods can be really frustrating at times, I mean how fucking dumb can you be?

And the other characters being wary of

Spoiler

Frieza

is warranted, it's not about bad blood it's about simple trust

 

[ArchedThunder]

Some of the actual best of Super (combat only).
https://sakugabooru.com/data/427d62e8422856b2c914492817e80435.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/0e07fa465a8ff0e8e2ed2fd023a8d9c7.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/1efefcd6d38bd7980bd1c3cbce825a06.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/7f1a4b26a7a552aaf14d875dd1ed6cb9.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/e302df445195cd151ec5b4e688d8afda.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/9b40c9424dc241017eaaa2c8e1d51aa0.mp4
http://i.imgur.com/UPPfuDY.gif

 

[Buster Machine]

Pick the third strongest being in your universe or be destroyed. Tough tough choice. Bringing in the 10th member actually made sense. Literally Goku is the only person who wasn't being stupid there. If the all get erased what does bad blood matter?

Anyway, the show is mediocre as a whole. But being Dragon Ball is enough to make me interested. Story wise and power level wise it makes little sense. But seeing some of the fights like Black vs Trunks first fight makes it a decent watch. Amd the baseball episode joins the driving episode as GOAT.

I mean, yes. It is, or at least should have been, a tough choice when you don't know if that 3rd strongest member even gives a damn and will most likely go out of his way to make your chances worse. Goku had to be bailed out by Beerus before the tournament even started.

That said, you can forget that if you want. There's still plenty of stupidity to go around. Like that moment he forgot he had a second son. Or how he didn't know what kissing was. Or when he forgot the Mafuba seal. Or when he was going to give Baba the Zeno button....

I mean you can also handwave some of the shit that goku did in DBZ. He gave Freeza enegery to live despite all he has seen Freeza do, he knew Freeza was coming to earth but he didn't use the instant transmission, he gave cell a fucking senzu bean against Gohan. Hell even during his speech to Freeza in the original line he never once mentions being a force of good.

I agree with you that Goku in Super acts like a complete idiot at times

Spoiler

We need to seal Zamasu away, but I'll forget the tag to permanently seal him. Multiple universes are going to be erased, I'm excited for a tournament

, but Goku was never really the true hero who knew exactly what to do and did the right things. At the very least

Spoiler

when Goku confronted Freeza for the tournament he was serious and didnt want to deal with the assassins

.

I'll give you the Freeza one being dumb as hell.

He didn't use IT because Trunks was already there. He mentions that before they "fight".

He used the senzu on Cell because he knew that Gohan was stronger than Cell and thought that they had already won. The point of that scene was that he made the mistake of thinking that Gohan was like him and Vegeta. It wasn't like he was trying to consciously help Cell blow up the planet or something.

People always point out this scene and then ignore how shocked he gets at the end when Piccolo chews him out and he sees Gohan get his ass kicked. He knows he screwed up. Meanwhile, Beerus does the same shit in Super, and he just laughs it off and goes on about his business like nothing even happened.

 

[The Silver]

It's good, but doesn't really feel as good as Dragonball Z. There is no real sense of urgency or epicness to the battles. The power levels are ridiculous and the new forms don't feel like they have any weight to them. In DBZ, you had attacks that blew holes in planets and had planets falling apart, and you could feel the desperation in the fights. When someone turns Super Saiyan Blue in Super, outside of the Goku/Hit fight, it feels like it is a weaker form than Super Saiyan 1 in DBZ.

On a side note, I wish they really would bring back the Saiyan apes to just wreck sh*t. It'd be interesting to see a Super Saiyan version of it.

you're misremembering Z cause the only times you ever had planets falling apart was Frieza vs Goku and to a much lesser extent Goku vs Kid Buu. Cell saga in particular was a massive scaling back on what was shown on Namek and even the saiyan saga.

 

[LotusHD]

Probably a misnomer -- I meant something closer to atmosphere. I could try describing it in words, but that would be tedious. Compare this to this.

To be fair, atmospheric moments I mention could easily breach into filler and become particularly obnoxious. But for something like that dumb Trunks scene, you're hoping he pulls it off, and you're thinking maybe he actually ascended. The gravity of the moment is palpable and very well complimented by the score.

I actually like the latter fight, but the pacing of it is pretty typical. The way the fight plays out is somewhat atypical for Super, and that's just kind of a shame. It's a fine fight, but it doesn't play anything up. There's just no character to it. And maybe that's the wrong fight to choose, because the Z fight I showed had a lot of context behind it, whereas being forced into ToP for Buu is kind of arbitrary.

Well like you said, as people looked back on plenty of those "atmospheric moments", they realize a lot of them truly were obnoxious. At times yes, the mood was set as a result, but it was often just padding out the episode lol

And yea, like you noted, it's kind of weird to compare that fight to this particular one since the stakes were completely different.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I thought it was dumb when

Spoiler

Trunks blocked Black's attack that was aimed at Goku.

Spoiler

That happens so much in Dragon Ball I don't even think it's worth note. Black wasn't expecting Trunks to be there. He just got caught off guard. Example from the same arc:

Spoiler

Trunks fighting SSB Vegeta uses grade 4 form to make Vegeta drop his guard. He is then able to put Vegeta on the defensive for a bit even though the gap in their power was huge. By the end it's clear Vegeta is way ahead but he got caught off guard.

Him fighting Zamasu I have no problem with

The end of the episode presents the clearest indicator that trunks had somehow went from >SSJ3 to SSB.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Because honestly if this put SSB Goku in that position, it should have obliterated anything pre SSJ3 level, yet they are both at the exact same state which says they're at the same level.

Eh, a lot of people take that scene too literally. The point was to say they got thrashed. There are so many examples after that scene that show Trunks is not SSB level. Besides, we see shit that doesnt make sense all the time in DB. How does base Gohan stop a SS Goku Kamehameha dead in its tracks when they were training for the cell games? How does Tien deflect a blast from super buu?

It's just effect. It never implied they bridged a power gap.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

If we are all just bitching... What they did to the art of Gohan is down right offensive. He's just so ugly. His hair. What's wrong with his hair. At least give him his Golden Freeza arc hair back. He's the ugliest character on the show in his Goku Gi and without bang. It's honestly gross.

Ultimate Gohan still has his bang.

 

[Hydrus]

you're misremembering Z cause the only times you ever had planets falling apart was Frieza vs Goku and to a much lesser extent Goku vs Kid Buu. Cell saga in particular was a massive scaling back on what was shown on Namek and even the saiyan saga.

Kid Buu blew up the earth.

 

[EmiPrime]

I like Dragon Ball Super but it never reaches the heights DBZ did. Also Goku regressed to a permanent child-like state, he was more of an adult as an adolescent during the tenkaichi budokai at the end of DB and he lays it on a bit too thick at times.

 

[Messofanego]

Some of the actual best of Super (combat only).
https://sakugabooru.com/data/427d62e8422856b2c914492817e80435.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/0e07fa465a8ff0e8e2ed2fd023a8d9c7.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/1efefcd6d38bd7980bd1c3cbce825a06.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/7f1a4b26a7a552aaf14d875dd1ed6cb9.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/e302df445195cd151ec5b4e688d8afda.mp4
https://sakugabooru.com/data/9b40c9424dc241017eaaa2c8e1d51aa0.mp4
http://i.imgur.com/UPPfuDY.gif

If this is the best, then I'm not convinced that Super is better than DBZ in terms of fights. Some of those are showy and cool, but only the choreography of the other Goku dude fight was memorable.

 

[The Silver]

Kid Buu blew up the earth.

I'm talking about the actual fights


You got stuff like this in Super with Beerus and Zeno making that stuff look like kiddy shit.

 

[Sephzilla]

you're misremembering Z cause the only times you ever had planets falling apart was Frieza vs Goku and to a much lesser extent Goku vs Kid Buu. Cell saga in particular was a massive scaling back on what was shown on Namek and even the saiyan saga.

While we didn't have planets falling apart, everyone was at a "can blow up the planet" scale really early on and the threat of it was used a bunch of times

 

[dlauv]

I don't like how they made Ultimate Gohan a transformation, since it's just supposed to be Gohan himself at full potential. Just let him keep his bang, guys.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I don't like how they made Ultimate Gohan a transformation, since it's just supposed to be Gohan himself at full potential. Just let him keep his bang, guys.

To be fair Ultimate being a transformation was a DBZ thing from the Tapion movie, the DBZ: Battle of Gods movie, and the video games. The idea didn't originate in Super.

 

[ArchedThunder]

I don't like how they made Ultimate Gohan a transformation, since it's just supposed to be Gohan himself at full potential. Just let him keep his bang, guys.

When Gohan first had it unlocked for him in the Buu arc he had to actually power up into it.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I mean, yes. It is, or at least should have been, a tough choice when you don't know if that 3rd strongest member even gives a damn and will most likely go out of his way to make your chances worse. Goku had to be bailed out by Beerus before the tournament even started.

If the Universe is destroyed none of this matters and the fact is if he cooperates they are in a better position to survive. That's literally all the reasoning dude needs to give. There comes a point where they gotta make a tough choice. I dont think this was dumb at all. Had their real 10th fighter been there then yeah I would understand but the difference between those 2 and anyone else they could have picked would have been enormous. Literally may as well fetch Futute Trunks at that point.

That said, you can forget that if you want. There's still plenty of stupidity to go around. Like that moment he forgot he had a second son. Or how he didn't know what kissing was. Or when he forgot the Mafuba seal. Or when he was going to give Baba the Zeno button....

This stuff is all stupud I agree. But mostly just harmless. Giving Cell a sensu bean is stupid.

 

[Icyflamez96]

That happens so much in Dragon Ball I don't even think it's worth note. Black wasn't expecting Trunks to be there. He just got caught off guard. Example from the same arc:

Spoiler

Trunks fighting SSB Vegeta uses grade 4 form to make Vegeta drop his guard. He is then able to put Vegeta on the defensive for a bit even though the gap in their power was huge. By the end it's clear Vegeta is way ahead but he got caught off guard.

Eh, a lot of people take that scene too literally. The point was to say they got thrashed. There are so many examples after that scene that show Trunks is not SSB level. Besides, we see shit that doesnt make sense all the time in DB. How does base Gohan stop a SS Goku Kamehameha dead in its tracks when they were training for the cell games? How does Tien deflect a blast from super buu?

It's just effect. It never implied they bridged a power gap.

Spoiler

Black doesn't even notice Trunks going for him until after they already clash, otherwise it was an attack meant to harm Goku that I don't think Trunks should have been able to block so easily. To me that's something like a weaker character trying to block a blast from a stronger character meant to hard another stronger character. It's just another instance of sloppiness IMO. If they had shown Black surprised before he made contact with Trunks then it would be fine, but that attack was full force at Goku and he didn't even notice Trunks there until they clashed.

Spoiler

You can interpret that way though, but I think the scene that I giffed proved that they were trying to convey that Trunks was on SSB Goku level in the first place.

What do you mean taking it literally? Am I not supposed to take literal visuals of what is happening on the screen literally? That's what makes it sloppy. The show before shows the he is clearly below SSJ3, then it shows his is SSB level.

When does Tien reflect Super Buu's blast? I only remember him jumping away from it. Was this moment in the manga?

Obviously the training Kamehameha would be a blast that Gohan could handle, it's not like Goku would do a full power blast meant to kill Gohan during their training.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

When Gohan first had it unlocked for him in the Buu arc he had to actually power up into it.

That was only to unlock it the first time though. Then it became permanent.

Gohan had the bang when he was literally unconscious in Super Buu's stomach.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Whoever is doing the fighting animation these days should observe some of the older scenes.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Whoever is doing the fighting animation these days should observe some of the older scenes.

Let's be real. That's the best fight in Z. Nothing reaches that level later in the series.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Whoever is doing the fighting animation these days should observe some of the older scenes.

Those aren't well animated though?

I mean you can argue choreography, but the actual animation is janky as fuck and relies a lot on sequences with barely any actual movement

 

[Relix]

Whoever is doing the fighting animation these days should observe some of the older scenes.

You do know that's the exception right? Most fight scenes don't even look remotely as good.

 

[EmiPrime]

Those aren't well animated though?

You and I have very different ideas as to what constitutes good animation.

 

[Hydrus]

Whoever is doing the fighting animation these days should observe some of the older scenes.

I just realized we don't see any shirtless Goku fights anymore lol.

 

[Sephzilla]

Let's be real. That's the best fight in Z. Nothing reaches that level later in the series.

*High five*

The first Goku vs Vegeta fight is still the high point of the franchise

 

[LotusHD]

I just realized we don't see any shirtless Goku fights anymore lol.

Heh, he's tired of you perverts

Spoiler

which now includes Frieza

always gawking at him.

 

[Aaronrules380]

You and I have very different ideas as to what constitutes good animation.

As I said, choreography is good, but the actual animation isn't very fluid and there are a bunch of parts where you go a second or two with barely any movement

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Probably because Z wins out.

I think the highs of the fights are better than Z which is pretty boring and slow-paced.

 

[HazySaiyan]

I think Goku v Vegeta being the best fight in the series is something we can all agree on. Right?

 

[Sec0nd]

Ultimate Gohan still has his bang.

He's cool in his ultimate form. Shame that has been a total of 2 minutes in the entirety of Super so far. Otherwise his look is abysmal.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I think Goku v Vegeta being the best fight in the series is something we can all agree on. Right?

I was looking at the 2 posted gifs trying to figure out what is so satisfying about them, and I think it's partly the way the hair is animated, before Goku and friends all put Super Saiyan hair Gel that makes it barely move.

 

[Pizza]

Dragon Ball took the ENTIRE series to build to the point where Goku had to go train with kami in an effort to beat Piccolo. Until then, they'd just been training for fun and to try to win the world martial arts tournament.

Yeah, there were antagonists but they were not solely responsible for advancing the plot. DB was a character-driven show that had villains to fight.

Z put the villains at the forefront. Immediately Raditz, goku's older brother from space, is here right now and stupid strong. Then his boss shows up. Then HIS boss shows up. Then someone comes from the future because the androids are SO STRONG that they destroy everything. Then the ultimate android shows up. THEN it turns out that a demon who can just go ahead and beat everything was stashed on earth.

I loved the DBZ filler. It gave the ever-escalating story time to breathe. Gohan's training and Goku and Piccolo getting their driver's lisences felt more like classic DB than a lot of Z did. GT did a little of DB in the first half, and DBZ for the second. A lot of people hate that, i thought it was neat.

Super takes the DBZ cast back to a Dragon Ball sort of story and i LOVE it for that. All the slice of life stuff is incredible and carries the weaker DBZ fights (so far, I'm excited to get past frieza but gold)

We're escalating the scenarios now instead of raw power. Beerus is a chaotic neutral god who is now a frequent visitor of earth. Trunks comes back from a second differently destroyed future. Eventually there's an interdimensional grand tournament. Give me aaaall of that. GT works for me because it's short. I couldn't do another whole series of progressively powerful fighters.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Spoiler

Black doesn't even notice Trunks going for him until after they already clash, otherwise it was an attack meant to harm Goku that I don't think Trunks should have been able to block so easily.

Spoiler

He's only able to block it because Black wasn't expecting him to be there. It's like how picollo can kick frieza 50% way the fuck across the planet.

To me that's something like a weaker character trying to block a blast from a stronger character meant to hard another stronger character. It's just another instance of sloppiness IMO. If they had shown Black surprised before he made contact with Trunks then it would be fine, but that attack was full force at Goku and he didn't even notice Trunks there until they clashed.

Blocking one attack doesn't really qualify as a huge deal imo. It's shown that before the rage boost Trunks cannot compete with Black. This is shown many times. But he has gotten the better of black throw surprise because even though he is weaker he is still a good fighter.

Spoiler

You can interpret that way though, but I think the scene that I giffed proved that they were trying to convey that Trunks was on SSB Goku level in the first place.

It literally does not. After this seen you see Black thrash Trunks on like 2 more occassions. All that scene shows is that Trunks is durable.

What do you mean taking it literally? Am I not supposed to take literal visuals of what is happening on the screen literally? That's what makes it sloppy. The show before shows the he is clearly below SSJ3, then it shows his is SSB level.

The only feat he shows that exhibits strength on the SSB level is when he gets the better of black in the tag team. He gets his ass handed to him every other encounter.

I just didnt find the tag team a big deal. They just clearly get their ass kicked. Trunks is still decidedly below SSB up until his actual boost.

When does Tien reflect Super Buu's blast? I only remember him jumping away from it. Was this moment in the manga?

Uses a beam to blow it up. The power gap is so large there is no real reason that should happen.

Obviously the training Kamehameha would be a blast that Gohan could handle, it's not like Goku would do a full power blast meant to kill Gohan during their training.

The entire scene leading up to that was "you're wasting our time if you dont take this seriously". It's implied he was trying.

 

[Powerpuff]

Sad to say but to me Super is GT level, a little different but not especially better anyway.

If you can be more into manga than anime, you could find a better sequel to Dragon Ball made by fans for near 10 years and still active with the dojinshi Dragon Ball Multiverse. It respects more the DBZ spirit than the official Super and GT and is really pleasant te read.
To read DBM in different languages : http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/

 

[Sephzilla]

Super in my opinion pays more respect to the characters than GT did. Case in point - GT had Vegeta using a machine to boost his power level and achieve SSJ4, which is the most un-Vegeta thing imaginable.

I think Goku v Vegeta being the best fight in the series is something we can all agree on. Right?

obvi

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

The biggest reasons for the disparity is the fighting choreography, direction of scenes and character detail.

Just compare the character art from DBZ to DBS and its easily differentiable.

 

[Icyflamez96]

I think Goku v Vegeta being the best fight in the series is something we can all agree on. Right?

I like Goku vs Cell

 

[Violence Jack]

I'm enjoying it for the most part (I'm only up to episode 80), but some things really grate on me in this series:

1. Goku is just waaaaaaay too dumb for me now.
2. Zeno feels pretty pointless in this show. So far, his only use has been for erasing

Spoiler

Goku Black and Zamasu

3. Bulma is way more annoying than she ever was in Z or the original series. How she can get away with talking to Beerus the way she does without him vaporizing her in a millisecond, I'll never understand.

 

[Slaythe]

One thing I can't stand is people making no distinction between art style, animation style, and overall quality.

You're not gonna find ANYONE defending the horror that was the Super FNF arc visually.

Not ONE person. So stop acting like anybody liking Super now is blind, it's a matter of taste. The show has radically improved itself over time. It's competent and the old art style of DBZ is for many, the best, but so is pretty much any anime from this era.

The recent arc in Super has provided a lot of effort regarding story boarding and art direction, we've had some episodes with incredible use of colors for instance.

I tend to prefer the old Z art, but it's not a 1:1 matter. Especially in the Cell saga.

Regarding the battles, I think Toriyama and the people that learned his style were above the current artists working on the show, in terms of poses and impact. That being said, a lot of battles in Super manage to be more compelling, due to pacing and/or original ability/situation. While Z ended up falling in the "everybody fights the exact same way" pretty fast.

 

[Stairouais]

I like Goku vs Cell

it's so good.

 

[Skeeter49]

He's cool in his ultimate form. Shame that has been a total of 2 minutes in the entirety of Super so far. Otherwise his look is abysmal.

He looked fine in his fight with Lavender, and when he was fighting Goku and giving Tien the beating of his life.

I'm enjoying it for the most part (I'm only up to episode 80), but some things really grate on me in this series:

1. Goku is just waaaaaaay too dumb for me now.
2. Zeno feels pretty pointless in this show. So far, his only use has been for erasing

Spoiler

Goku Black and Zamasu

3. Bulma is way more annoying than she ever was in Z or the original series. How she can get away with talking to Beerus the way she does without him vaporizing her in a millisecond, I'll never understand.

She was way more annoying in the Namek Saga.
That's how Bulma has always been. She did that with Vegeta when he was supposed to be this cold blooded murderer.

Zeno's job is to keep things in check, erase universes/ planets/ people when they get out of line. He does get more focus post episode 90.

 

[Aaronrules380]

One thing I can't stand is people making no distinction between art style, animation style, and overall quality.

You're not gonna find ANYONE defending the horror that was the Super FNF arc visually.

Not ONE person. So stop acting like anybody liking Super now is blind, it's a matter of taste. The show has radically improved itself over time. It's competent and the old art style of DBZ is for many, the best, but so is pretty much any anime from this era.

But the recent arc in Super has provided a lot of effort regarding story boarding and art direction, we've had some episodes with incredible use of colors for instance.

I tend to prefer the old Z art, but it's not a 1:1 matter. Especially in the Cell saga.

Regarding the battles, I think Toriyama and the people that learned his style were above the current artists working on the show, in terms of poses and impact. That being said, a lot of battles in Super manage to be more compelling, due to pacing and/or original ability/situation. While Z ended up falling in the "everybody fights the exact same way" pretty fast.

seriously. I can get arguements that Z had better direction, but it's actual animation is nothing special. Which isn't surprising considering that barely any super long running shows have particularly amazing animation because production on shows like that is a gigantic pain

 

[NandoGip]

This thread needs to be nuked

 

[LotusHD]

it's so good.

Why they'd call this the most underrated fight lmao

 

[DiipuSurotu]

He looked fine in his fight with Lavender, and when he was fighting Goku and giving Tien the beating of his life.

Agreed

 

[Raging Spaniard]

It would be cool if we could talk about this subject without, you know, spoiling the damn show without tags. Im still At episode 70.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

seriously. I can get arguements that Z had better direction, but it's actual animation is nothing special. Which isn't surprising considering that barely any super long running shows have particularly amazing animation because production on shows like that is a gigantic pain

Naruto did. Iirc Pokemon does.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Naruto did. Iirc Pokemon does.

Naruto has moments of great animation but most of it is nothing special. Pokemon's animation was pretty shitty until X and Y, though it's gotten significantly better between than and Sun and Moon and it's mostly because it's utilizing a bunch of experimental and cutting edge animation techniques. Pokemon is very much an exception to the rule

 

[Sami+]

Everything I've seen is mediocre at best tbh but I haven't watched much. The Frieza movie sucked. Goku Black is suuuuper dumb, and I didn't really care for what they did with

Spoiler

Vegito

or Future Trunks. Also hate the art style, it looks completely lifeless next to DB and DBZ imo.

But I mean if you really want more Dragon Ball it's serviceable enough.

 

[Icyflamez96]

.[/SPOILER]

It literally does not. After this seen you see Black thrash Trunks on like 2 more occassions. All that scene shows is that Trunks is durable.



The only feat he shows that exhibits strength on the SSB level is when he gets the better of black in the tag team. He gets his ass handed to him every other encounter.

I just didnt find the tag team a big deal. They just clearly get their ass kicked. Trunks is still decidedly below SSB up until his actual boost.



Uses a beam to blow it up. The power gap is so large there is no real reason that should happen.



The entire scene leading up to that was "you're wasting our time if you dont take this seriously". It's implied he was trying.

Spoiler

Which is my point. It's not the same thing as getting kicked off guard, because Frieza's guard was down. The trunks moment was not even about whether Black's "guard" was up. His power was up because he was intending on hitting Goku and harming him, not Trunks. And Trunks directly confronted that power. Anyway, while you might be able to interpret that in different ways, the gif I posted shows that the show was saying "Trunks is SSB", which just gives more weight to the idea that the show was saying "Trunks was SSB level" when he blocked that attack.

And it literally does show that, because Black's Kamehameha affected Goku & Trunks in the exact same way. There is no way to spin it otherwise, unless you want to say "well maybe Black made trunk's half of the Kamehameha weaker than Goku's half". What you're saying about Trunks being weaker than Black is not what I'm saying. I never said he was stronger than Black, just that it showed in as if he were on SSB Goku level. (Which is weaker than Black)

I'm going to need to see receipts of the Tien scene in the manga.

How does that contradict what I said? It was a blast that Gohan could handle and he ended up handling it, simple as that. I don't know how you're trying to play that off as weirdness.