But to the "new" Simon, a jump did occur. He remembers being in the chair and now he's in a new place.
If the game kept it consistent, then we would never have gone to Pathos-II in the first place. We'd still be in Toronto with Simon-1.
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SOMA | Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter More_Badass
- Start date
But to the "new" Simon, a jump did occur. He remembers being in the chair and now he's in a new place.
If the game kept it consistent, then we would never have gone to Pathos-II in the first place. We'd still be in Toronto with Simon-1.
The game heavily implies the Deep-Sea-Suit Simon dies, because as he says before the power goes out "We're stuck here with those fuckers (monsters) living at large on a spaceship".
Whether he gets out or not is not really important anyway. He's not the same simon you controlled in the beginning or the first part of the game anyway.
And another thing is, with all this "Simon-2" and "Simon-3" talk, I hope people consider that the Simon we wake up as in the first place after the 2015 brainscan is most likely Simon-100 and not just number 2 or 3.
The shift in perspective is done by the narrator of the game. All simons are conscious in their own bodies all at once, but the ending twist pulls the rug out from under us to show us what we didn't previously realize, that all brain-scans created copies, not transfers. I don't get what this talk of "inconsistency" is.
Of course, I mean if it's consistent you'd have Simon-1 die of his mystery illness, Simon-2 die or remain comatose and Simon-3 remain in the abyss. My point was that it was perfectly clear for me that the split occurred, and both minds kept on going, but if you don't think about it it makes for a grim realization. The game plays with your expectations pretty well.
Logically I would understand the process and the need to keep one consistent self and just expect the previous copy to off itself if possible once it can confirm that the process was successful. Again, this is explored pretty well in the Altered Carbon series by Richard K Morgan.
More_Badass
Member
No, "those fuckers" refer to the Catherine and Simon on the Ark
Unless I've missed something it was consistent. When you copy into the deep sea suit Simon hears his previous body and asks Catherine why there's two of him and she explains that it was always like this, every jump is a 50/50 for your current consciousness and up until now we've got "lucky" to go down the path the player is brought down.
In the end the player controlled consciousness luck runs out and we're left on Pathos.
The 50/50 thing is willful ignorance, the only thing that ever jumps is your (the player's) perspective. Every time you copy your consciousness you get two copies of yourself, you will always continue to be you, but the copy will also be your perfect copy from the moment of the split. There is no "jump" except for the camera perspective.
If you for example just copied your mind into a clone body sitting across from you, you'd feel like you didn't "jump" 100% of the time and your copy would feel like it "jumped" 100% of the time. You'd be identical for all intents and purposes at the moment of the copying.
If that were true why would Catherine continue this up until the point where shes shut offline, surely she would know how the system works and at the point where the ARK is launched she would have no reason to keep it up.
Was there anything to specifically say outright that the system does not work like this despite being lead to believe otherwise?
Because she's only ever been copied once and thinks that's how it works as well, I guess?
There's no logical reason to think there's any consciousness transfer at any point.
These guys get it.
From the perspective of the coin toss meaning there's always a "winner" and "loser" then I can see where you're coming from. That brings up the question of why that specific wording was used in the first place or maybe Catherine really isn't fully aware of how the cloning works.
I thought the whole game was excellent and very fun, with a fantastic ending. The game has very good level design and pacing, reminds me of Half Life 2 in that regard. Every single level seems needed and perfectly placed.
The only part I found a bit frustrating was the last encounter with the deep sea man who walked around a bit erratically so I couldn't really move anywhere for long.
The story really is a great sci-fi plot, I'd love to see a movie based on it
The only part I found a bit frustrating was the last encounter with the deep sea man who walked around a bit erratically so I couldn't really move anywhere for long.
The story really is a great sci-fi plot, I'd love to see a movie based on it
Yeah, Simon keeps absolutely clueless throughout the game, no doubt thanks to Catherine and the crazed continuity cultists who understand the thing wrong. The only way to keep continuity during a jump would be a gradual replacement where the original is slowly destroyed and replaced, which in Soma universe would mean structure gel eating your brain cell by cell and making an equivalent machine replacement. That way the continuity would be kept the same way human brain keeps it naturally.
Barry Burton
Member
Wait...is there an actual boss fight at this point?
When I first got to that point, I assumed (incorrectly) that Ross was being controlled by the WAU and that "poisoning" the heart was a trick. So I decided to move onto the next area, and obviously Ross is like "I'll force you to do it." After he then gets eaten, I figured I should probably poison the WAU but after doing that, I just got the hell out of there and raced to Phi.
How does this all play out if you stick around after poisoning the WAU?
When you kill the WAU Ross says something like "Now I just need to stop it's creations" and gets eaten when he moves in to kill you. Basically the race to Phi is the Leviathan fight
Stiler
Member
She is lying to Simon.
Catherine knows FULL well that when you do a scan and transfer you are not "jumping bodies" but simply making a copy and the you that currently "is" before the scan will still be there.
The reason she keeps this up is because she is afraid Simon wouldn't help or would back out. Her entire goal this entire game was to get the Ark out, at any cost.
She knew when you made Simon 3 that Simon 2 (The one you spend playing the majority of the game for) would be left behind. She knew when the Ark was launched that both you (Simon 3) and her (The Catherine in the cortex chip) would still be there, left behind.
She kept lying to Simon so that he wouldn't back out of have a "Second guess" at anything. A prime reason of this is exactly what happened to the real Catherine when she tried to launch the ark, people get scared, they don't want to be "left" behind or anything, they lose hope, they lose focus, she didn't want to risk that so she simply kept lying to Simon.
More_Badass
Member
Here's a good explanation of Catherine's motives from another forum where I was discussing the game
Neuromancer
Member
Couldn't Catherine have done a cut/paste of her and Simon rather than a copy/paste there at the end? I think that's what Simon was expecting her to do. But assuming for some reason that wasn't possible, then why did she wait until the end to copy them both over to the ARK? She could have done it from any point from when they found the ARK on.
I mean cut/paste is just copy/paste where you delete the original. I guess it's possible, but Simon-3 would have still had to consent probably.
alexandros
Banned
Maybe it was her way of getting Simon to complete the task. Would he have gone through with it if he had realized sooner that he would be left behind?
Turin Turambar
Member
uh... That's the thing with the game. That's the continuity of conciousness problem.
A cut/paste job is just a copy where the original is also deleted. But... would you happily "delete" yourself after doing a copy? It's easy to do it with a file in a computer, it isn't so easy to take a gun and blow up your brains saying to yourself it's ok because now there is another you somewhere else.
There is not neat, clean solution to the problem, which is actually why is used sometimes in science fiction as a theme.
Neuromancer
Member
I wouldn't happily delete myself but I think it's better than getting left in a robot body at the bottom of the ocean. ;_;
Maybe not, but maybe she should have deleted him knowing how upset he'd be.
TetraGenesis
Member
You didn't learn anything from this game.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Loved the game, but would have loved to see it elaborate more on the structure gel business, as it's basically left as an "unobtanium" plot device.
The game could have done some more to elaborate the kind of wretched existence the WAU created for humans. I really wanted to see the hell the human mind copies suffered in, the one you see in flashes when you get killed.
Also, the planet is gonna get trashed by a comet and you have a rail gun that fires projectiles that carry "payloads" from deep sea, presumably at insanely high speeds. It's then the 22nd century and they can't figure out how to shoot a big bomb into the comet? Sure...
One thing I may have missed is, who wakes Simon-II ? Catherine or the WAU?
The game could have done some more to elaborate the kind of wretched existence the WAU created for humans. I really wanted to see the hell the human mind copies suffered in, the one you see in flashes when you get killed.
Also, the planet is gonna get trashed by a comet and you have a rail gun that fires projectiles that carry "payloads" from deep sea, presumably at insanely high speeds. It's then the 22nd century and they can't figure out how to shoot a big bomb into the comet? Sure...
One thing I may have missed is, who wakes Simon-II ? Catherine or the WAU?
Oh yeah, the underwater mass driver makes zero sense to me. Wouldn't payloads disintegrate underwater at escape velocity?
More_Badass
Member
How I understood it was that the barrel of the gun is so long that the only way to construct it is to have the barrel underwater. The payload isn't actually traveling through the water
I guess that makes a bit more sense, probably not the most feasible engineering solution, but 22nd century and so on.
Mister_Bubbles
Member
I think Simon is another one of the WAU's experiments.
edgefusion
Member
There's a TV screen at one point looping an old news broadcast that briefly mentions efforts to stop the comet failed. Sounds like humanity tried something but it didn't work.
You don't teach drillers to be astronauts, you teach astronauts to drill damn it! Why didn't they listen?
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
I loved the way they ended the game. The only thing I can think of that would have added to it would be to have reversed the two endings and have the "good" ending in the ARK first and changing the post credits sequence to be Simon's freakout at Phi. They could then fade to the Simon left behind at Omicron waking up and realizing what had just happened (if he'd been left alive) and freaking out again before fading to Simon waking up from the Scan in Toronto, going outside and reading something about a new comet being discovered. This would have hammered home the reality of the copying process and been a spectacular way to tie everything together.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Oh, and what's the point of the surveys at the start and end of the game?
Do they alter the game at all?
I skipped out on the final one.
Do they alter the game at all?
I skipped out on the final one.
StaffyManasse
Member
I think they are just for the player to reflect on. I know the ending one got me thinking.
Yeah, I found it interesting how my responses changed after experiencing the events of the game.
Salty Catfish
Member
My one lingering question is about Carthage -- I found the hidden orders in the one crewmember's cabin that implied they were a spy but I'm still not quite sure what their objective was. Was WAU their creation? Was the AI freaking out part of some plan all along? I think I remember seeing their logo plastered on the walls near where WAU was housed...
I finished this game about a week ago, but it really stuck with me. Very rarely do I finish a game and then want to replay it just to pay closer attention to everything. I can't remember the last game I played that actually made me reflect on everything I just experienced.
I was going through my backlog before playing this, but I'm having a really hard time going back to the games I have. I really wish more games were like this.
I was going through my backlog before playing this, but I'm having a really hard time going back to the games I have. I really wish more games were like this.
thecosmicfly
Banned
Don't know if anyone else has mentioned this or thought about it much, but does anyone else feel like SOMA is... pro-euthanasia? All of the big themes (The ramifications of artificial intelligence and identity of the self, the nature of true human conciousness and free will etc.) have been delved into pretty thoroughly here and around the net, but I couldn't help but notice a secondary theme underlining the game. Look at the prime directive of the WAU. It's purpose is to keep the injured crew of PATHOS-II alive by any means necessary, and that means just so happens to be filling them with horrible magic techno goo that at best leaves them in a blissful, unconsious state as they roam the underwater stations as murderous monsters.
Then you have the select few not fortunate enough to be ignorant of the horror surrounding them, being kept on life support against their will. Look at what gruesome fate Amy has been delt with in the shuttle station. Here's this woman, filled to the brim with all manner of tubes and cables, kept alive by a cold machine in a state that can barely be called living. Fast forward a couple of hours to when you arrive at the ARK and discover Sarah Lindwall and holy shit this is basically the same thing as Amy. The only difference is there's no crazy future AI in the equation, but the imagery still persists. Much like how SOMA asks the questions of whether an AI can really be human, it asks if it's right to keep a person arbitrarily alive if said person isn't truly able to live, allowing them to continue to suffer without having the option of a dignified death.
And yet, what I find most fascinating is that, much like the rest of the game - or any other good piece of fiction for that matter - SOMA brings up these issues and at times does have a bias towards some sides, but it never tries to force it's argument upon you. It allows you to come to your own conclusions, letting you meditate on the ideas and concepts presented. Sure, Cath and Simon will point out the depressing state of the stored brain scans, or how soul destroying it is that the other Simon left at Omicron lost the coin toss and his reward is to be left to rot, or even Simon's initial reluctance fulfilling Sarah's final wish to die in peace, but for all of these it leaves the choice in your hands to erase/deactivate/unplug them, and it has the Goddamn decency to not cheapen it by having it all tie into unlocking some secret ending bullshit or tacky bonus achievement.
...on a completely different note, I was kind of let down with the actual design of the WAU. I mean, look at the stuff they teased years ago:
And this is what we get:
The changes they made during development in terms of the overall story were important and definitely turned out for the better, when compared to the alternative being "OMG the robots are powered by literal human braaaaaiiiins!", but man that thing in the first pic is goddamn iconic looking. That room is easily 10x more unsettling than whatever the shit the WAU looked like in the final game. Could've had a new HAL or GLaDOS, instead we're left with an icky butt hole.
Then you have the select few not fortunate enough to be ignorant of the horror surrounding them, being kept on life support against their will. Look at what gruesome fate Amy has been delt with in the shuttle station. Here's this woman, filled to the brim with all manner of tubes and cables, kept alive by a cold machine in a state that can barely be called living. Fast forward a couple of hours to when you arrive at the ARK and discover Sarah Lindwall and holy shit this is basically the same thing as Amy. The only difference is there's no crazy future AI in the equation, but the imagery still persists. Much like how SOMA asks the questions of whether an AI can really be human, it asks if it's right to keep a person arbitrarily alive if said person isn't truly able to live, allowing them to continue to suffer without having the option of a dignified death.
And yet, what I find most fascinating is that, much like the rest of the game - or any other good piece of fiction for that matter - SOMA brings up these issues and at times does have a bias towards some sides, but it never tries to force it's argument upon you. It allows you to come to your own conclusions, letting you meditate on the ideas and concepts presented. Sure, Cath and Simon will point out the depressing state of the stored brain scans, or how soul destroying it is that the other Simon left at Omicron lost the coin toss and his reward is to be left to rot, or even Simon's initial reluctance fulfilling Sarah's final wish to die in peace, but for all of these it leaves the choice in your hands to erase/deactivate/unplug them, and it has the Goddamn decency to not cheapen it by having it all tie into unlocking some secret ending bullshit or tacky bonus achievement.
...on a completely different note, I was kind of let down with the actual design of the WAU. I mean, look at the stuff they teased years ago:
And this is what we get:
The changes they made during development in terms of the overall story were important and definitely turned out for the better, when compared to the alternative being "OMG the robots are powered by literal human braaaaaiiiins!", but man that thing in the first pic is goddamn iconic looking. That room is easily 10x more unsettling than whatever the shit the WAU looked like in the final game. Could've had a new HAL or GLaDOS, instead we're left with an icky butt hole.
Yeah, that's a pretty good summary of that. And also an interesting counterpoint to all the WAU proponents here. It's not either/or, you can see that both digital and biomechanical methods allowing humanity to continue its existence (if you can call it that). The question is: is the struggle worth it? Did humanity die with the meteorite and are you just playing out its death throws?
I've noticed a lot of people discussing the "right" of the WAU to life, to inherit the Earth, to carry on doing its thing. But the WAU caused endless suffering to many of its creations/adaptations. Sentient or not, I wouldn't wish unpleasant existences on anything; so I euthanized those I could, and had no qualms about killing the WAU to prevent more suffering.
Don't create life if you doubt that your creations will appreciate it. The Ark is a pretty safe bet, so if I worked on Pathos II, I'd be content to support its creation as a way to give the lives of my collegues and I a sense of meaning. Obviously the whole "continuity" thing is utter hogwash: the desperate reasoning of unsound minds who needed to justify their meaningless existences. They would likely have felt suicidal even without continuity superstition to push them over the edge. But making a synthetic paradise and populating it with human minds seems like a fine endeavour.
However, if the Ark didn't exist, and the only way to preserve humanity lay in the experimentation of the WAU, I'd be with Ross every step of the way. I'd be more than happy to let it continue existing if I knew it wouldn't causing more pain, but robo-Simon's existence is a curse. No rosy vision of the distant future would outweigh the misery of so many of its failed experiments. The prevention of future suffering would give me as great a sense of purpose and fulfillment as launching the Ark into space. Possibly more so.
Don't create life if you doubt that your creations will appreciate it. The Ark is a pretty safe bet, so if I worked on Pathos II, I'd be content to support its creation as a way to give the lives of my collegues and I a sense of meaning. Obviously the whole "continuity" thing is utter hogwash: the desperate reasoning of unsound minds who needed to justify their meaningless existences. They would likely have felt suicidal even without continuity superstition to push them over the edge. But making a synthetic paradise and populating it with human minds seems like a fine endeavour.
However, if the Ark didn't exist, and the only way to preserve humanity lay in the experimentation of the WAU, I'd be with Ross every step of the way. I'd be more than happy to let it continue existing if I knew it wouldn't causing more pain, but robo-Simon's existence is a curse. No rosy vision of the distant future would outweigh the misery of so many of its failed experiments. The prevention of future suffering would give me as great a sense of purpose and fulfillment as launching the Ark into space. Possibly more so.
The counter-argument to this line of thinking is that all life is suffering and bringing anyone into this world is condemning them to die. The only practical difference here is that WAU-s "life" is "unnatural" which in and of itself is obviously up for interpretation as well. There are quite a few WAU creations that don't seem to be in any pain or suffering starting with Simon-2 himself.
finished the game today, very interesting game. can't say it's something I'd play again anytime soon, because how annoying those monsters could be. but I'm curious if you don't kill your first copy, do we see what he's been up to?
I thought it was clever. it (probably) doesn't affect anything in the game just how you perceive those two scenarios you were in.
I thought it was clever. it (probably) doesn't affect anything in the game just how you perceive those two scenarios you were in.
Simon 2 is miserable. Without Catherine and her mission, his life would be a purposeless living hell.
I actually agree with your first point. It's one of many reasons why I'll never have kids, and have far more respect for those who adopt than I do for those who make babies themselves. Biological imperative or not, procreation should be recognized for what it is: a fundamentally selfish act that is very hard to defend from an ethical standpoint.
But we all value different things. Some people are more fulfilled by creating life; others by preventing suffering. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things; it's just the reason I had no problems at all with the ethical questions of the game.
Well yeah, I mean they weren't all piles of goo-fused flesh asking to be killed. The humans in this apocalypse scenario probably wouldn't be too cheery either.
And that's what the game is good at bringing out and making you think about these issues.
Absolutely - that's why I killed life-support girl. And the people who were either too doped up or too mad to dislike their lives don't outweigh the "please kill me" WAU creations, or the "WTF am I doing here? This is pointless and awful!" Simons of the world.
So true. Fantastic game. I was irritated by Simon's utter failure to grasp how copies work, but everything else was handled superbly.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
The future in this story is as they have written it, not as you think it will be.
Finished the game in one sitting yesterday. It was a very well-designed experience with good pacing and great voice-acting, albeit with inconsequential player choices and unanswered plot questions (already covered itt). It has a very good chance of being in my Top 10 for this year.
I'm not going to comment too much on what has already been touched upon throughout the thread, but I do think that the moral nature of killing or not killing Simon 2 in Imogen Reed's body is relatively straightforward - you do not have the explicit permission by Simon 2 to kill him/her off. Making that decision without the consent of Simon 2 should make the decision to "euthanize" him immoral. This is in contrast to euthanizing Sarah at Tau, because she explicitly states that she wants to die.
So when people claim that "oh wow it's so complex and interesting to decide whether to kill off Simon 2", I unfortunately don't find it ambigious or complex. It's not yours (Simon 3's) decision to make and it's frankly selfish and self-imposing to decide on other moral agent's behalf whether or not he should live.
I'm not going to comment too much on what has already been touched upon throughout the thread, but I do think that the moral nature of killing or not killing Simon 2 in Imogen Reed's body is relatively straightforward - you do not have the explicit permission by Simon 2 to kill him/her off. Making that decision without the consent of Simon 2 should make the decision to "euthanize" him immoral. This is in contrast to euthanizing Sarah at Tau, because she explicitly states that she wants to die.
So when people claim that "oh wow it's so complex and interesting to decide whether to kill off Simon 2", I unfortunately don't find it ambigious or complex. It's not yours (Simon 3's) decision to make and it's frankly selfish and self-imposing to decide on other moral agent's behalf whether or not he should live.
Haunted
Member
With the way space exploration and development has stalled in the past decade through cutbacks in government budgets while the private, capitalist, consumer-driven electronics industry has expanded and soared, this doesn't strike me as a completely unrealistic future. :lol
Well if you knew that you were going to get copied, you could have decided the fate of your old body before getting copied and having to ask anyone.
I decided based purely on self-preservation/survival of the fittest/competition at that particular point in time. I, "the copy" was awake, and my predecessor wasn't. I didn't want to have any other "Simon" around, so I terminated him. I didn't even bat an eye, really. Pulling the plug on Sarah was a tad more difficult, in spite of her wanting to die. I didn't feel "threatened" by her, so there was no selfish reason for me to kill her. Since her dying then or later wouldn't really affect me, I chose to do as she asked.
seriosbrad
Member
I thought Catherine might want to wear her bra one last time. Found it in her room on board
L.B. Jeffries
Member
Just wrapped this up and liked it overall. The monster sections felt pretty shallow: it's basically dropping you in a maze (if even that) and getting the monster to go one way and you go the other. After Alien:Isolation it's hard to not be spoiled and expect a bit more interaction. There's nothing you can really do with them, no hiding from them, and no real way to get around them except just waiting.
I got the impression from the ending they must have tried like ten different versions of it where people either didn't understand or figured it out too soon. So they kinda did both. As soon as the body switch happens it was immediately clear to me that we weren't going on the ARK. But there was still a lot left to enjoy: grasping why all the people were committing suicide, the moral ambiguity of WAU, deciding to keep it alive, and then the growing sense of dread as you realize the moment is coming where you are stuck on the station.
No idea why the coin toss concept is confusing, Catherine's point isn't that he had a chance to jump perspectives. It's that he lost the coin toss as soon as he became Simon 3.
I got the impression from the ending they must have tried like ten different versions of it where people either didn't understand or figured it out too soon. So they kinda did both. As soon as the body switch happens it was immediately clear to me that we weren't going on the ARK. But there was still a lot left to enjoy: grasping why all the people were committing suicide, the moral ambiguity of WAU, deciding to keep it alive, and then the growing sense of dread as you realize the moment is coming where you are stuck on the station.
No idea why the coin toss concept is confusing, Catherine's point isn't that he had a chance to jump perspectives. It's that he lost the coin toss as soon as he became Simon 3.