Support NeoGAF

[Wollan]

Nintendos numbers are definetly healthy but what we don't see on the Sony side is that the platform is healthy for the whole industry/3rd parties. I think that's the main difference between a Sony/Microsoft console and Nintendo. As it has been atleast.

 

[Sgt. Killjoy]

Are there some numbers for Nintendo going back to the NES? That would be interesting to see.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Nintendos numbers are definetly healthy but what we don't see on the Sony side is that the platform is healthy for the whole industry/3rd parties. I think that's the main difference between a Sony/Microsoft console and Nintendo. As it has been atleast.

Nintendo is not especially profitable for 3rd parties because for the most part 3rd parties don't put out much on the systems and when they do they put only minimal effort into the product.

The ps2 gets Devil May Cry, the Cube gets pn03. That's why 3rd party stuff does better on Sony's platforms.

 

[sonycowboy]

Year    Sony               Nintendo           Microsoft
1997    974,000,000
1998   1,130,000,000  629,000,000
1999  730,000,000      645,000,000
2000   -409,000,000    421,000,000
2001    623,000,000    726,000,000
2002    939,000,000    800,000,000      -750,000,000
2003    650,000,000    560,000,000    -1,191,000,000
2004    404,000,000    316,000,000    -1,215,000,000
2005    75,000,00        777,000,000    -485,000,000
2006                          894,000,000    -1,262,000,000
Totals  5,116,000,000  5,768,000,000  -4,903,000,000

So we could all remember the name of the game. It's not for the love of interactive entertainment.

Microsoft – Home & Entertainment through FY 2006 ended June 30 2006
Sony – Game division through FY 2005 ended March 31 2006
Nintendo – Overall through FY 2006 ended March 31 2006

The most pure videogame sector here is Sony's reports.

All Home & Entertainment divisions but Xbox is considered to be profitable. They also started losing money on Xbox before 2002 as it had to be R&D'ed and produced. Which is more than likely another billion or so.

Nintendo releases overall earnings reports – stake in pokemon + currency investments + some other minor things.

Sony and Nintendo will soon release last quarter results.

Also try to google "loses".

Additions, suggestions and comments are welcome.

You must be from Duke!!!

Give credit where credit is due!

 

[Tabris]

N64 likely did better than Cube by a good amount but GBA did a lot better than GBC and GB(in its later years).

So I expect it to be around the pre-DS numbers.

What are you talking about? GBC/GB with Pokemon sold better than the DS is selling right now. GBC/GB was a MONSTER during the Pokemon phase.

 

[jordan0386]

the biggest favor in american history!


Thank you, MS

 

[AniHawk]

Are there some numbers for Nintendo going back to the NES? That would be interesting to see.

The only thing I've ever seen, I think came from Ultimate History of Video Games where Kent stated Nintendo made something around $500 million during 1993 or 1994, while Sega made $100+ million (while actually in debt). Pretty sure the back of David Sheff's Game Over said something about Nintendo recently making $500 million or so in 1992 as well.

It's been about 3 years since I've read these books, so my memory's pretty hazy.

I can't believe MS lost the most money they've ever lost in video games last year.

 

[bycha]

Yeah, all the numbers but last year were collected by our best man sonycowboy and are from previous thread.

Seriously though...those MS numbers...that's amazing. When are they planning to have a profitable year, exactly?

Well, several years ago they planned that Xbox won't be profitable until 2007. But now 2007 is expected to have loses as well. So, who knows... ) Seriously, 2008 and so on can be profitable. It's a question of how big share they want. I expect they want to at least double it, heading for 50 m sold lifetime for X360, so they may have loses after that, because of pricecuts and heavy marketing.

 

[qirex]

I can't believe MS lost the most money they've ever lost in video games last year.

Well they basically dropped the Xbox completely plus all their marketing costs from the launch plus the expense of having to air ship consoles for a few months.

 

[Andokuky]

I didn't know Sony was that close to Nintendo, most gamers talk as if Nintendo is the only company out of the three that makes a penny of profit.

 

[DCharlie]

for sony, some costs that are for games are not booked directly against the game section as of 2000.

 

[AniHawk]

for sony, some costs that are for games are not booked directly against the game section as of 2000.

Like the storage units they have to pay monthly to hold all of their LIES and DECEIT?

 

[Polari]

If Microsoft comes third this time, that's it for them, I think.

 

[mrklaw]

I have to agree with this

I mean again I know you need to loose some money to break into an industry but how long will they continue to bleed billions of dollars

With those losses for that long, I'd almost suggest there was a law against it. Low pricing for market penetration is one thing. But sustained below cost pricing for years is almost akin to dumping.


I'd like to see Sony's numbers per generation. They had one loss in 2000 due to PS2 I guess, but it would have been bigger if not for PSOne profits.

 

[mrklaw]

Yeah, all the numbers but last year were collected by our best man sonycowboy and are from previous thread.



Well, several years ago they planned that Xbox won't be profitable until 2007. But now 2007 is expected to have loses as well. So, who knows... ) Seriously, 2008 and so on can be profitable. It's a question of how big share they want. I expect they want to at least double it, heading for 50 m sold lifetime for X360, so they may have loses after that, because of pricecuts and heavy marketing.

They may make a singular profit in 2008, but when would they expect the entire effort to break even? i.e. recoup all the previous 6 years losses.

 

[cybamerc]

The problem with the M$ numbers is that H&E isn't just Xbox, it's also PC games and Mac software - both of which are profitable. Plus, over the years M$ has changed accounting practices so you don't have comparable numbers for all years.

Total Xbox losses are way higher than $5 billion.

 

[Deku]

Well I was telling my friends in 2000 that the MS Xbox was a bad idea and they should try to get into the software business providings apps for the consoles.

I think the Xbox and 360 were Microsoft's answer to Sony's convergence vision (games, movie player, internet etc.) once the flavour of the month in high end tech changes and perhaps convergence is proven to be premature yet again, they may try a different strategy.

Microsoft's first entry into the games business was Windows95 and the Xbox line is just its most recent permutation.

I think 360 might be the last standalone MS home console. It's a bit early to say anything for certain, as PS3 and Wii have yet to hit the market, but I really don't think the gains MS will make this gen will make it worth it for them to stick around for a 3rd fight and as realities on the ground change, especially is the PS3 stumbles, MS might alter its strategy.

The irony here is, it will require a Sony weakness in the games business and or a refutation of the convergence vision Sony is going for, for MS to withdraw, not the other way around.

 

[DCharlie]

Like the storage units they have to pay monthly to hold all of their LIES and DECEIT?

those LIES AND DECEIT numbers are "slipped' not "hold"

 

[Oblivion]

Like the storage units they have to pay monthly to hold all of their LIES and DECEIT?

There's also the other possibility that Sony did indeed sell 100 million units, but half of those were to replace the other half that self destructed.

 

[bycha]

They may make a singular profit in 2008, but when would they expect the entire effort to break even? i.e. recoup all the previous 6 years losses.

They haven't stated this publicly. But my guess is in the best case scenario (really the best like them havin 6m in Japan with X360) is 2015, and 2020 or so more than likely. So yeah it's a long-long sucker.

 

[bycha]

The problem with the M$ numbers is that H&E isn't just Xbox, it's also PC games and Mac software - both of which are profitable. Plus, over the years M$ has changed accounting practices so you don't have comparable numbers for all years.

Total Xbox losses are way higher than $5 billion.

Yes i stated this. They are higher then $6 B and only MS knows how big they are.

 

[Il Comodino]

Well I was telling my friends in 2000 that the MS Xbox was a bad idea and they should try to get into the software business providings apps for the consoles.

I think the Xbox and 360 were Microsoft's answer to Sony's convergence vision (games, movie player, internet etc.) once the flavour of the month in high end tech changes and perhaps convergence is proven to be premature yet again, they may try a different strategy.

Microsoft's first entry into the games business was Windows95 and the Xbox line is just its most recent permutation.

I think 360 might be the last standalone MS home console. It's a bit early to say anything for certain, as PS3 and Wii have yet to hit the market, but I really don't think the gains MS will make this gen will make it worth it for them to stick around for a 3rd fight and as realities on the ground change, especially is the PS3 stumbles, MS might alter its strategy.

The irony here is, it will require a Sony weakness in the games business and or a refutation of the convergence vision Sony is going for, for MS to withdraw, not the other way around.

Time ago, before Xbox360's launch, one man sony (I don't remember who) spoke about future collaborations with MS.

Maybe next gen we could find a Ps4 with software Windows?

 

[Il Comodino]

Yes i stated this. They are higher then $6 B and only MS knows how big they are.

and I think that with project xbox, Ms has cannibalized Pc gmes section!

don't you think?

 

[cybamerc]

and I think that with project xbox, Ms has cannibalized Pc gmes section!

No. You could argue that M$ could have released Halo, Project Gotham, Fable, the Rare titles and so forth exclusively for PC but the only reason why M$ bought those developers and games is Xbox.

PC games are profitable for M$ today but weren't always.

In general terms the market for PC games has been in decline for some time but you have PlayStation to thank for that.

 

[Il Comodino]

No. You could argue that M$ could have released Halo, Project Gotham, Fable, the Rare titles and so forth exclusively for PC but the only reason why M$ bought those developers and games is Xbox.

PC games are profitable for M$ today but weren't always.

In general terms the market for PC games has been in decline for some time but you have PlayStation to thank for that.

yes maybe you are righy

 

[kinoki]

Even if MS makes "profitable" it'll be a decade before they actually make up for the money they lost.

Think of it like this: atleast they made a good PC game-pad. Now we can play console-to-PC ports on a game-pad that's a standard.

 

[MrPing1000]

I didn't know Sony was that close to Nintendo, most gamers talk as if Nintendo is the only company out of the three that makes a penny of profit.

well if u stick in the rest of the company Sony's been bleeding out it's arse the past few years, whereas Microsoft is obviously making a shitload of money overall. Nintendo is just nintendo

 

[Ash Sparrow]

Two words Live Everywhere

the xbox business will possibly become profitable with the help of it in a few years.

 

[bycha]

The irony here is, it will require a Sony weakness in the games business and or a refutation of the convergence vision Sony is going for, for MS to withdraw, not the other way around.

I don't think MS gonna withdraw. I mean look at it this way: they got a lot now. They have studios, they have franchises, they have fan base, reputation and Live. They have golden middle of price/perfomance.

Halo 3 gonna be huge. The quarter they released Halo 2 they were profitable. GTA IV gonna be huge for em and will help em a lot. Gears of War, Forza 2, Fable 2 and other stuff will be big too. Live gonna help bring the cash too. So i expect them to make money at the middle/end of X360 lifecycle. Maybe not much but still.

PC games are profitable for M$ today but weren't always.

In general terms the market for PC games has been in decline for some time but you have PlayStation to thank for that.

One note: pc games RETAIL market is in decline. MS and others say that pc games are actually growin each year very well thanks to mmog's and digital distribution.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

They may make a singular profit in 2008, but when would they expect the entire effort to break even? i.e. recoup all the previous 6 years losses.

I remember before the Xbox first launched and they were talking to maybe Gates or some else high up in MS about the future of the Xbox line and getting into the game market, who ever they were talking to said they didnt expect to see profits untill the 3rd generation ie Xbox3. I have to imagine that that is just insane though, to have to wait 10 - 12 years to see a profit, I mean I know with the start of anything theres a time period when you run in the red, but that long, to plan on waiting 3 generations, just boggles my mind. So I guess we shall see, if the Xbox 720 doesn't start turning a proft then maybe thats when they'll take their leave. And yeah they're gonna need some HUGE profits to make up the 6 + billion their losing.

 

[DCharlie]

Year Sony Nintendo Microsoft
1997 974,000,000
1998 1,130,000,000 629,000,000
1999 730,000,000 645,000,000
2000 -409,000,000 421,000,000
2001 623,000,000 726,000,000
2002 939,000,000 800,000,000 -750,000,000
2003 650,000,000 560,000,000 -1,191,000,000
2004 404,000,000 316,000,000 -1,215,000,000
2005 75,000,00 777,000,000 -485,000,000
2006 894,000,000 -1,262,000,000
Totals 5,116,000,000 5,768,000,000 -4,903,000,000

is there any reason why Nintendo don't have any figures for 97?

 

[PantherLotus]

I love how we all r00t for specific companies to be profitable in one thread, and then bitch when they make completely corporate bullshit decisions the next.

/off topic

 

[Mooreberg]

I love how we all r00t for specific companies to be profitable in one thread, and then bitch when they make completely corporate bullshit decisions the next.

/off topic

If it seems like they are giving you a "good deal" now, it is so they can screw you later.

 

[PantherLotus]

If it seems like they are giving you a "good deal" now, it is so they can screw you later.

agreed.

also, i welcome myself to gaf.
I know it's this way, just funny to keep a perspective once in awhile.

 

[FitzOfRage]

is there any reason why Nintendo don't have any figures for 97?

I just checked it out, it was $564 million.

Though looking through it, the numbers he posted don't seem to quite match up with the current US dollar equivalents for what they reported in yen for the other years. So I'm not sure if he's going by the exchange rate at the time, or if he's using operating income over net income, or what.

 

[Lapsed]

One thing I've been wondering is why would Microsoft be willing to lose billions on a video game console? People go into business to make money, not to lose it. Granted, there were many errors in how the original Xbox was made that insured it to be unprofitable, but why is Microsoft sticking with it?

With all the fierce Ipod competitors out there, why is Microsoft making the Zune to 'compete' in the portable music market? What in the world is Microsoft doing entering the portable music market anyway?

In the early 90s, a tsunami of the Internet being used for information changed the business landscape. Companies became rich just by processing or searching for information.

According to investors, we are on the verge of another tsunami. The Internet has so far been heavily used for information, not entertainment. The President of NCSoft says that whoever gets there first (of applying the Internet for entertainment) will become bigger than Google.

It appears that Microsoft is attempting to change itself into an entertainment company. The company must realize that the traditional cashcows of Windows and Office will not last forever as electronics and how we use them increasingly change. It has "invested" billions into the Xbox project, and bought various game companies.

I'm thinking the old Microsoft as we knew it, as a software oriented operating system company is over. As the Internet is used less for information and increasingly more for entertainment, Microsoft is trying to jump in before the tidal wave hits.

 

[Mooreberg]

One thing I've been wondering is why would Microsoft be willing to lose billions on a video game console? People go into business to make money, not to lose it. Granted, there were many errors in how the original Xbox was made that insured it to be unprofitable, but why is Microsoft sticking with it?

With all the fierce Ipod competitors out there, why is Microsoft making the Zune to 'compete' in the portable music market? What in the world is Microsoft doing entering the portable music market anyway?

In the early 90s, a tsunami of the Internet being used for information changed the business landscape. Companies became rich just by processing or searching for information.

According to investors, we are on the verge of another tsunami. The Internet has so far been heavily used for information, not entertainment. The President of NCSoft says that whoever gets there first (of applying the Internet for entertainment) will become bigger than Google.

It appears that Microsoft is attempting to change itself into an entertainment company. The company must realize that the traditional cashcows of Windows and Office will not last forever as electronics and how we use them increasingly change. It has "invested" billions into the Xbox project, and bought various game companies.

I'm thinking the old Microsoft as we knew it, as a software oriented operating system company is over. As the Internet is used less for information and increasingly more for entertainment, Microsoft is trying to jump in before the tidal wave hits.

Things like Xbox, Windows Live, etc. are to hedge their bets incase a company like Google makes the idea of having applications installed locally become obsolete (people have been predicting things like this for ages, but it has not happened yet). If Xbox is still draining money like crazy at the end of the XB360 cycle than I imagine they'll try to partner up with a consumer electronics company (like Toshiba or Samsung) to put out a system where their tools are used for development and the Xbox Live service for online, but have the partner company handle the hardware decisions and worry about the loses in that regard.

 

[sonycowboy]

I just checked it out, it was $564 million.

Though looking through it, the numbers he posted don't seem to quite match up with the current US dollar equivalents for what they reported in yen for the other years. So I'm not sure if he's going by the exchange rate at the time, or if he's using operating income over net income, or what.

It was as of the currency exchange back a year or two ago. The numbers would look a bit different and the best thing would be to know the exchange rate at the time the numbers were reported (year by year)

 

[cybamerc]

One thing I've been wondering is why would Microsoft be willing to lose billions on a video game console?

Because they see consoles, more specifically PlayStation, as a threat to their business.

 

[Lapsed]

Things like Xbox, Windows Live, etc. are to hedge their bets incase a company like Google makes the idea of having applications installed locally become obsolete (people have been predicting things like this for ages, but it has not happened yet). If Xbox is still draining money like crazy at the end of the XB360 cycle than I imagine they'll try to partner up with a consumer electronics company (like Toshiba or Samsung) to put out a system where their tools are used for development and the Xbox Live service for online, but have the partner company handle the hardware decisions and worry about the loses in that regard.

Because they see consoles, more specifically PlayStation, as a threat to their business.

None of this explains why Microsoft is entering the portable music business though.

 

[D3VI0US]

The 360 will be profitable for MS at the end of this gen but the Xbox project in general will probably still be in the red.

 

[sonycowboy]

The 360 will be profitable for MS at the end of this gen but the Xbox project in general will probably still be in the red.

With well over a billion dollars in losses already, the 360 is unlikely to be profitable in the entirety of it's business. What they're likely saying is that the business will become profitable on an onging basis at some point in the future. Perhaps sometime in 2008 onward.

 

[The Faceless Master]

is there any reason why Nintendo don't have any figures for 97?

because of the FY period i guess

Sony – Game division through FY 2005 ended March 31 2006
Nintendo – Overall through FY 2006 ended March 31 2006

 

[davepoobond]

None of this explains why Microsoft is entering the portable music business though.

Apple is spreading their iPod and iTunes platforms through the music portable industry. Microsoft/Windows is all about being the platform of choice for electronics, whether that be portable music, PDAs, video games, you name it, they want to run it.

I don't doubt there will be a xbox portable sometime either -- it might not be with the Zune, but it'll happen eventually.

 

[Ronok]

In 5 years Microsoft have lost more then Sony have made in 9.......... How on earth are they meant to make this money back? Considering they are going to lose more before 2008 and then probably again at the release of the next XBOX (if the trend continues) when are they expected to actually break even? 2020? Later maybe? This is assuming they manage to make the same levels of profit Nintendo and Sony are making......... That's a hell of a long wait to start making money.... 18 years for what? 500-600 million a year? Is it really worth it to Microsoft? :-/ Well I guess it is as they are willing to do it, but, it seems strange to wait so long. :-/

 

[Mooreberg]

In 5 years Microsoft have lost more then Sony have made in 9.......... How on earth are they meant to make this money back? Considering they are going to lose more before 2008 and then probably again at the release of the next XBOX (if the trend continues) when are they expected to actually break even? 2020? Later maybe? This is assuming they manage to make the same levels of profit Nintendo and Sony are making......... That's a hell of a long wait to start making money.... 18 years for what? 500-600 million a year? Is it really worth it to Microsoft? :-/ Well I guess it is as they are willing to do it, but, it seems strange to wait so long. :-/

If the current PS3 pricing scheme blows up in Sony's face and Microsoft are able to take over North America and Europe, they'll be able to price systems so they are not sold for as much of a loss, and keep the the software prices high to accelerate how much money they make back.

 

[sonycowboy]

If the current PS3 pricing scheme blows up in Sony's face and Microsoft are able to take over North America and Europe, they'll be able to price systems so they are not sold for as much of a loss, and keep the the software prices high to accelerate how much money they make back.

More than Sony did with the PS2 with almost a 70% market share? :lol

They'll never, ever, ever make back what was lost (well over $6B and counting).

BTW,

Microsoft has combined thier reporting to 3 divisions (as of this fiscal year), so the Xbox division is going to be grouped with so much other stuff, we'll NEVER come close to knowing it's financials ever again.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

None of this explains why Microsoft is entering the portable music business though.

Oh that one's easy. Apple did it. :lol

 

[Mooreberg]

More than Sony did with the PS2 with almost a 70% market share? :lol

They'll never, ever, ever make back what was lost (well over $6B and counting).

BTW,

Microsoft has combined thier reporting to 3 divisions (as of this fiscal year), so the Xbox division is going to be grouped with so much other stuff, we'll NEVER come close to knowing it's financials ever again.

So what is the long term goal then? They obviously thought it was worth the expense to get into the industry.

 

[AndoCalrissian]

I didn't know Sony was that close to Nintendo, most gamers talk as if Nintendo is the only company out of the three that makes a penny of profit.

I don't think anyone has ever really denied that Sony makes profit. The comments about Nintendo being extremely profitable usually stem from statements that they are going to go 3rd party.