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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

just finished it, what the hell was that nonsense. It makes more sense than the first bioshock's ending but is even more ridiculous. Why couldn't they just go to Paris and be happy or something, simple or what ever I would have preferred it.

If the epilogue has a good end then you can imagine Booker flying to paris with his daughter... if it is the bad end he will probably kill himself.

I would like a Bioshock 1 DLC that would explain the connection between infinite and the first one. I mean if they pull stuff like "Brooker is Jack" and somehow explain it in a good way my jaw would drop to the ground.
 
just finished it, what the hell was that nonsense. It makes more sense than the first bioshock's ending but is even more ridiculous. Why couldn't they just go to Paris and be happy or something, simple or what ever I would have preferred it.

good shit though, maybe I'm an idiot I dunno.

Because that's a crap ending and a nice happy little ending for a game like this would suck. The ending we got is an extremely deep and thought provoking one that has sprouted so much discussion here alone.

Also he's her dad so running off to paris together seems wrong
 

Nicktock

Neo Member
So some questions:

1. Did they ever explain what exactly vigors are?

With ADAM it was stem cell slugs, so are vigors just tech stolen from another universe or did the Luteces' just invent it, later to be manufactured by Fink?

...

There's a voxophone in Fink's brother's house where Fink tells his brother how happy he is with the music he's producing and how he's getting rich off watching a certain biologist. I think we can assume that's Tenebaum.
 
There's a voxophone in Fink's brother's house where Fink tells his brother how happy he is with the music he's producing and how he's getting rich off watching a certain biologist. I think we can assume that's Tenebaum.

I think vigors are from a tear that led to Rapture
 

Odrion

Banned
I just realized how weird it is that a tonic that causes people to commit suicide exists in the world. You'd think that there'd be repercussions with that kind of stuff.

Silly navel gazing, but still. :p
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
This isn't comprehensive, but here's a look at the evolution of Infinite from the debut trailer to the launch trailer.

Debut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WDQ4FhslSk

Debut gameplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_DSfjAdhlU

E3 2011 demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEBwKO4RFOU

VGA 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvIU1e7k7Oc

launch trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wq5KHPYWWY

Staggering how different the game was initially. Elisabeth was a much more active character in the battlefield. I know they earlier demos are essentially nothing more than vertical slices/targeted gameplay demos, but some of the changes, cut content and reworked content are really interesting.

Especially the E3 2011 demo. Also didn't realise they changed the design of the skyhook from the initial demo to E3 2011. I quite like the original design.
I remember the VGA footage looking so confusing and chaotic. Now it looks tame. Haha.
 
Question re: the 'Boys of Silence'... If they detect movement/presence via heightened hearing, then why do they still "see" you, rather than hear you? That is what's going on, right?
 

Andrew.

Banned
Question re: the 'Boys of Silence'... If they detect movement/presence via heightened hearing, then why do they still "see" you, rather than hear you? That is what's going on, right?

Because we can assume that their heightened sense of hearing is so precise, that they can tell exactly where you are. I have no problem believing this. Ever meet a blind person? Their sense of hearing usually beats the shit out of a normal healthy persons.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I think vigors are from a tear that led to Rapture

Given the implication that there's always a man, there's always a vision, there's always a city, we can suspect that many many many parallel universes had their own versions of robot-men, of superpower-tonics, and of many other familiar series concepts.
 

xam3l

Member
just finished it, what the hell was that nonsense. It makes more sense than the first bioshock's ending but is even more ridiculous. Why couldn't they just go to Paris and be happy or something, simple or what ever I would have preferred it.

good shit though, maybe I'm an idiot I dunno.

I imagine that if that just happen, booker and his daughter would probably have sexy times. And thats quite sick. lol
 
they really did fail to achieve the scale of that mindblowing E3 demo.

Yeah. I liked the game and especially the setting, but gameplay wise this is not the step-up from Bioshock that I expected. I mean that E3 demo was on an incredible scale. I at least expected a setpiece of this magnitude, having the feeling you are actually traversing a giant city in the clouds by means of a railing system. Right now it pretty much felt like Rapture with separately themed areas capped off by loading screens. I hoped it would be more like you could traverse between areas via skyhook, in the meanwhile masking loading with a longer skyhook traversal animation. All the loading took me out of the game and sometimes killed the great immersion the game establishes. I didn't like the new Tomb Raider very much but one thing that game did right was not to break up the exploration through loading screens and mask loading in-game, thus keeping you immersed and giving more sense that the environment you are exploring is big and connected.

In the final game it pretty much felt like all the skyhook stuff was just a small circular rollercoaster ride around a combat area. Seriously missed potential in my opinion and something that I was expecting a whole lot more of based on pre-release footage.
 
So some questions:

1. Did they ever explain what exactly vigors are?

With ADAM it was stem cell slugs, so are vigors just tech stolen from another universe or did the Luteces' just invent it, later to be manufactured by Fink?


2. Did anyone else besides me pick up that Elizabeth was Dewitt's daughter REALLY EARLY in the game? Referring specifically to the scene where one of Comstock's female undercover commandos calls Elizabeth "Annabelle" (after the kid's arcade and before the train station ambush).

That was when I put it together that Comstock must have been an older Dewitt with player Dewitt being brought into a parallel universe (this theory made up because when Dewitt dies he's back in his office just before he heads off to Columbia, basically when he dies he resets then SOMEONE brings him back to where he was in the alternate timeline).

3. Why/How does Elizabeth have powers? Is it because the Luteces' messed with her physiology as an experiment or is it like the wiki says that having a part of her body cut off in a different universe allowed her to have an intuitive understanding of time-space which allows her to manipulate the Lutece fields...???


**
also here's a better timeline
http://i.imgur.com/MaHNjLo.jpg

That's an absolutely excellent timeline I think and fits everything that we see in very well. This and EatChildren's timeline (and perhaps the ending timeline if you believe the paradox eliminates the universe entirely to form yellow one to merely highlight which events are paradoxical) work very well at showing what the Lutece's perceive (this one) and what Booker perceives (EatChildren's). Together they seem to give a very conclusive version of events that occur within the game.

EDIT: 1. Fink is watching some 'biologist' through a tear in another universe. The technology can't be stolen from Rapture because of how the Plasmids work. If it was they would first need to get the sea slugs. they would need something to harvest ADAM, they would need EVE etc. and splicing would lead to people seeing ghosts/others' memories and lead to mental degradation/addiction. So it seems extremely improbable that he's observing Rapture. The most likely scenario is that he's looking into another universe entirely where somebody else developed similar, easily produced technology and stole it from them. This is actually, in some way, something I don't like about the game. While a lot of details went into the plot, the setting isn't as 'thought out' (or merely explained) as much as Rapture. While we know how things came to be made, we don't know the workings of it. For example, in Rapture we learned how they got electricity, the workings of the Plasmids/EVE/ADAM, how they got oxygen in the sky, how the people lived, sources of entertainment, how the Big Daddies were made, and then each audio tape fed into the main plot and also the city while simultaneously building up that character. In Columbia, we get a lot of broad information about the city but most of the Voxophones are related to the main plot but don't tie in as much, instead they branch out and develop the characters, they don't seem as interwoven (of course the Luteces' Voxophones, Lady Comstock's, Comstock's and, to a much smaller extent, Daisy's do this but overall to me they just don't feel as tightly woven while covering as much details as Rapture's do).

2. Can't say I did personally but others here have mentioned that they figured it out. I suspected that Elizabeth would be Annabelle at the same point as you did (although I had no idea who Annabelle would be) butI figured out that Comstock was Booker (although I had no idea what led to them coexisting in the same universe or any of the specific mechanics behind it) in the Hall of Heroes with the repeated references to Wounded Knee and I didn't think they would pull a double twist so disregarded Elizabeth being Annabelle and thus Booker's daughter. There's quite a significant deviation in who figured out what at which points, if at any point before the end. There's quite a bit of foreshadowing throughout the game and the opening really puts you in a skeptical mind frame (which was a good idea since after Bioshock I imagine a significant number of players were going in looking out for any sort of repeating dialogue or potential twists) so it ultimately would depend on the player I imagine.

3. This actually has an easy explanation yet it is in a Voxophone on Monument Island and thus is very easy for the player to miss:
"What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is and more to do with what she's not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas with its porridge."

i still cant fathom any timeline where liz kills all bookers, it also goes against the post credits scene.
Ok, so, at the end Elizabeth becomes practically omnipotent. She says she murders Booker before he makes a choice, and every Booker that survives Wounded Knee goes to the baptism. Lots of Elizabeths appear to represent Elizabeth drowning every Booker before he makes a choice (before he makes a choice has lots of emphasis placed upon it). This creates this paradox (the one in the post I'm quoting but I'll post it here so you don't need to flick between posts):
endingtimeline9njbo.jpg

A look at this loop in what Booker sees is this (EatChildren's timeline with Zkylon's green edit):
As we can see, journeying to the baptism at the end causes the timeline to loop around. As was suggested, if you print it out and join the two ends together. Basically, it makes no logical sense for Booker's daughter to murder Booker before her conception, for this to happen there has to be a loop, and there has to be a paradox. A destruction resolution to a paradox is where, to prevent the paradox to occur. the universe has to remove everything that could lead to a paradox, so all of the timelines that will lead to the paradox cannot happen. In practical terms, when you put a microphone beside a speaker and talk into the microphone, the noise doesn't continually get louder and louder an infinite times, there is feedback and the feedback ends up destroying the speaker. Similarly, the feedback created by the paradox ends up destroying the universe. As Eatchildren stated, it's like a mini Big Bang in the universe.
Basically Elizabeth saw that Booker became Comstock. To prevent this happening she murdered every single Booker that existed in every universe that survived Wounded Knee and went to the baptism (which must always happen because it's a constant). This creates a looping paradox because it means (in very basic terms) that Booker was killed by his daughter before his daughter's conception. This leads to a destruction resolution whereby every probability that leads to this paradox is removed, because logically, a paradox cannot occur. Basically, originally, at the baptism there is two choices. Elizabeth makes it so that one of these choices cannot happen because otherwise it will lead to a paradox in every single universe that Booker survived Wounded Knee. As a result, they change the variable at the baptism (Booker can accept or reject it) to a constant (Booker must reject it because otherwise it leads to a paradox).
 
So, does System Shock 2 fit into the lighthouse/man/girl pattern? I can see Tau Ceti V, main character... But then it's all a stretch. Unless somebody's thought this through better than I have.
 
the composition and coloring of the scene before booker is drowned reminded me of the ending of deadly premonition, wonder if ken played that
 

Meia

Member
There's a few things wrong with the finished project we got in comparison to demos and stuff pre-release, and it makes me all the happier I didn't see any of them before the game hit.


My favorite though, is talking about how the AI with Elizabeth was amazing. We all remember those types of vids. Um, what game were those people playing? By "amazing" do they mean she never got in the way? Cause if that's the best thing you can say about an AI companion, that's not saying much, I can say the same thing about Navi from OoT.



Think about it. What role does Elizabeth being next to you serve? She can unlock doors, and throw you thing in combat when something gets low. So basically, Booker can't pick doors(unlike every other protag in any of these types of games ever for some reason(not a bad thing it's like this)), and gets access to a magical system of limited ammo/health/salt regen. That's what her involvement boils down to, ALL it does. She can open tears. Yes, and that's a fun gameplay mechanic, and not one we've seen much of before. But there's also no reason why Booker himself couldn't be given a story reason to suddenly be able to as well. Again, better he can't, and the story is more impactful this way, but from a gameplay standpoint, she serves no real purpose being by your side, let's be honest.


I LIKED having her there, as another person who could see the world and comment on things around her, but that's her only real purpose. And honestly, that's not the first time we've had a game like that. So what about her AI that was so "revolutionary" that people kept talking about in reviews or trailers?
 
A city of ember, underground steam punk city would still be a neat location I think:

1328662785-city-ember-2.jpg
If they made a city underground (completing the water-earth-air theme), I feel like they should actually have it take place centuries in the future, where society had to move underground to survive some cataclysm. The people forgot how to replicate or create the advance technology around them, so you're using modern/futuristic weaponry that have a sense of age and rust about them. Kinda like WH40K.

Or maybe exclude guns all together. Make the PC rely solely on special powers, and revolve the game around using them. An FPS/LoZ game of sorts.
 
There's a few things wrong with the finished project we got in comparison to demos and stuff pre-release, and it makes me all the happier I didn't see any of them before the game hit.


My favorite though, is talking about how the AI with Elizabeth was amazing. We all remember those types of vids. Um, what game were those people playing? By "amazing" do they mean she never got in the way? Cause if that's the best thing you can say about an AI companion, that's not saying much, I can say the same thing about Navi from OoT.



Think about it. What role does Elizabeth being next to you serve? She can unlock doors, and throw you thing in combat when something gets low. So basically, Booker can't pick doors(unlike every other protag in any of these types of games ever for some reason(not a bad thing it's like this)), and gets access to a magical system of limited ammo/health/salt regen. That's what her involvement boils down to, ALL it does. She can open tears. Yes, and that's a fun gameplay mechanic, and not one we've seen much of before. But there's also no reason why Booker himself couldn't be given a story reason to suddenly be able to as well. Again, better he can't, and the story is more impactful this way, but from a gameplay standpoint, she serves no real purpose being by your side, let's be honest.


I LIKED having her there, as another person who could see the world and comment on things around her, but that's her only real purpose. And honestly, that's not the first time we've had a game like that. So what about her AI that was so "revolutionary" that people kept talking about in reviews or trailers?

No idea, I didn't find her revolutionary, but I loved that she wasn't useless.
 

DSmalls84

Member
Does anyone think we will see another Bioshock game next gen? With the ending they gave us it leaves it open to create new games, but also gives us enough info to leave it as a satisfying ending spot for the series. Personally would like to see at least one more.
 
There's a few things wrong with the finished project we got in comparison to demos and stuff pre-release, and it makes me all the happier I didn't see any of them before the game hit.


My favorite though, is talking about how the AI with Elizabeth was amazing. We all remember those types of vids. Um, what game were those people playing? By "amazing" do they mean she never got in the way? Cause if that's the best thing you can say about an AI companion, that's not saying much, I can say the same thing about Navi from OoT.



Think about it. What role does Elizabeth being next to you serve? She can unlock doors, and throw you thing in combat when something gets low. So basically, Booker can't pick doors(unlike every other protag in any of these types of games ever for some reason(not a bad thing it's like this)), and gets access to a magical system of limited ammo/health/salt regen. That's what her involvement boils down to, ALL it does. She can open tears. Yes, and that's a fun gameplay mechanic, and not one we've seen much of before. But there's also no reason why Booker himself couldn't be given a story reason to suddenly be able to as well. Again, better he can't, and the story is more impactful this way, but from a gameplay standpoint, she serves no real purpose being by your side, let's be honest.


I LIKED having her there, as another person who could see the world and comment on things around her, but that's her only real purpose. And honestly, that's not the first time we've had a game like that. So what about her AI that was so "revolutionary" that people kept talking about in reviews or trailers?
Actually, she was hugely technically impressive. Take it from somebody who has worked on a game trying to do something similar: it's tough. Getting her to predict your path? To not get in your way? To secretly respawn where she needs to? To actually look as if she's interacting, even if that stuff is pretty surface-level? It's all tough. She may not be revolutionary, but she's very well done indeed.
 
Does anyone think we will see another Bioshock game next gen? With the ending they gave us it leaves it open to create new games, but also gives us enough info to leave it as a satisfying ending spot for the series. Personally would like to see at least one more.
I felt like this - much as I loved it - would have made a perfect third game, after a second (non rapture) game where some of the themes were repeated in a different setting. I don't know that I want another. If there is one, it'll have acknowledge that the audience know the world's established tropes. Tough.
 

Sorian

Banned
What the hell are they going to do for DLC? Small chance it's story driven stuff?

I believe our resident inside man Fartsofwar has alluded to the fact that all the DLC will be story driven. People have also said that Levine said the same thing but I don't know where.

Does anyone think we will see another Bioshock game next gen? With the ending they gave us it leaves it open to create new games, but also gives us enough info to leave it as a satisfying ending spot for the series. Personally would like to see at least one more.

I really really hope so but I worry that Levine might not be able to handle the stress of another project like this :p

Actually, she was hugely technically impressive. Take it from somebody who has worked on a game trying to do something similar: it's tough. Getting her to predict your path? To not get in your way? To secretly respawn where she needs to? To actually look as if she's interacting, even if that stuff is pretty surface-level? It's all tough. She may not be revolutionary, but she's very well done indeed.

I don't ding them for this because I have to agree that they made her pathing phenomenal and she really did predict where I would be and when but it was hilarious how lazy it was that she would use off screen time to teleport around. Not necesarilly that it happened off screen but more the fact that there was no attempt to hide it. I would pan the camera left sometimes and she would leave my screen on the right and appear as I panned to the left.
 

Nicktock

Neo Member
DLC - Ken Levine tweeted it's all story driven, don't want to go fishing for it now.

What's next for Irrational - I hope Ken has a nice relaxing vacation and I hope they split into smaller groups a la Double Fine, you can tell more interesting focused stories and create more fun cutsie stuff too, like Freedom Force, I loved that game.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
If it was covered, I apologize...

Lady Constock is Anna from the original timeline where Booker becomes Comstock right? They have the same voice, same hand that unlocks the gate and same looks, just separated by 20 years or so. I figured Comstock was using Lady Comstock and she died in the process, so he used the tears via the twins to go back and pull another version of her from the past, hence the new Booker timeline where he sells his girl Anna to Comstock, who becomes Elizabeth.

IF not, who is Lady Comstock and why does she have similar powers?
 

Meia

Member
If it was covered, I apologize...

Lady Constock is Anna from the original timeline where Booker becomes Comstock right? They have the same voice, same hand that unlocks the gate and same looks, just separated by 20 years or so. I figured Comstock was using Lady Comstock and she died in the process, so he used the tears via the twins to go back and pull another version of her from the past, hence the new Booker timeline where he sells his girl Anna to Comstock, who becomes Elizabeth.

IF not, who is Lady Comstock and why does she have similar powers?


Actually, Elizabeth's hand didn't unlock the gate, it's why they had to go to the GY in the first place.

Elizabeth is Anna, and Anna is Elizabeth. There's no diverging timeline about this.



The Lady is just some girl who grew up in Columbia or something, you get a few recordings of her here and there.
 

Collider

Banned
Story is perfect, ending is perfect. They have shown everything, and I did understand everything. (I recorded it and saw it again. :p)
 

Sorian

Banned
If it was covered, I apologize...

Lady Constock is Anna from the original timeline where Booker becomes Comstock right? They have the same voice, same hand that unlocks the gate and same looks, just separated by 20 years or so. I figured Comstock was using Lady Comstock and she died in the process, so he used the tears via the twins to go back and pull another version of her from the past, hence the new Booker timeline where he sells his girl Anna to Comstock, who becomes Elizabeth.

IF not, who is Lady Comstock and why does she have similar powers?

Comstock was using Lady Comstock to have a child. If Lady Comstock was already Anna then he would have no need to have a child, she would be it. The twins go pull Anna from Booker's reality because Comstock is sterile and this is the only way to get a child that has his same DNA. Also, as the poster above said, Elizabeth's hand did not open the door, Lady Comstock does not have powers to open tears and they only look the same because people believe that Lady Comstock is the same woman that Booker had Elizabeth with in his own timeline.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Actually, Elizabeth's hand didn't unlock the gate, it's why they had to go to the GY in the first place.

Elizabeth is Anna, and Anna is Elizabeth. There's no diverging timeline about this.



The Lady is just some girl who grew up in Columbia or something, you get a few recordings of her here and there.

Well her pinky was missing, and of course Lady Comstock grew up in Columbia, she was raised there by Comstock. My theory sets the age of Elizabeth and Lady Comstock apart the same number of years as Booker and Comstock. Otherwise what happened to Anna after Booker was baptized?


Comstock was using Lady Comstock to have a child. If Lady Comstock was already Anna then he would have no need to have a child, she would be it. The twins go pull Anna from Booker's reality because Comstock is sterile and this is the only way to get a child that has his same DNA. Also, as the poster above said, Elizabeth's hand did not open the door, Lady Comstock does not have powers to open tears and they only look the same because people believe that Lady Comstock is the same woman that Booker had Elizabeth with in his own timeline.

Seems to me they just needed a cover for a baby suddenly appearing in their household. Didn't they mention a baby was born after one month? Maybe having two versions of Anna in one timeline is what killed Lady Comstock? I missed how she died. Comstock killed her? How?
 

PolishQ

Member
also here's a better timeline
http://i.imgur.com/MaHNjLo.jpg

This is the most accurate timeline, to my eyes. The only thing I'd add is that there are infiinite other universes (D, E, F, and so on) that we never directly see, which also converge at the Sea of Doors. That's why there are alternate versions of Elizabeth and Booker on the lighthouse walkways, and why multiple Elizabeths show up at the very end. What we can take this to mean is that when they go back to the baptism and drown Booker, they are actually drowning EVERY version of Booker at that point in time.

We can then look at the post-credits scene and deduce that this is a Booker who never even showed up to the baptism ... and therefore, Anna is safe.

I do have one question. Early in the game, after arriving at Columbia, you can see a statue in the distance being "changed" (through tear technology). It's the first time you get the "hold F to look" prompt. For the life of me, I can't remember who the statue is of, either before the change or after. Does this have any relevance?
 
I would go as far as speculating that the DLC could involve Preston Downs and his goings on or other characters you only got to learn about via audio logs. Flesh out the events surrounding the main story.
 

Nicktock

Neo Member
I do have one question. Early in the game, after arriving at Columbia, you can see a statue in the distance being "changed" (through tear technology). It's the first time you get the "hold F to look" prompt. For the life of me, I can't remember who the statue is of, either before the change or after. Does this have any relevance?

Starts as male Lutece and changes to Female Lutece.
 

Sorian

Banned
Well her pinky was missing, and of course Lady Comstock grew up in Columbia, she was raised there by Comstock. My theory sets the age of Elizabeth and Lady Comstock apart the same number of years as Booker and Comstock. Otherwise what happened to Anna after Booker was baptized?




Seems to me they just needed a cover for a baby suddenly appearing in their household. Didn't they mention a baby was born after one month? Maybe having two versions of Anna in one timeline is what killed Lady Comstock? I missed how she died. Comstock killed her? How?

You know Booker and Comstock are the same age right? The dairies state multiple times that exposure to the tear technology causes body degeneration, cancer, and sterility. That's the only reason Comstock appears to be older.

As to the second part, one of Fitzroy's diaries states that she went in to get check on Lady Comstock who she found to be murdered (stabbed, I think?) and then Columbia security was there in an instant and the blame fell on her. Another diary by Comstock if I remember right alludes to the fact that he killed Lady Comstock and had the twins killed by Fink because they knew that not everything about the child was true (she wasn't really born in one week, Comstock wasn't, technically, the father, etc.)

Edit: Oh and just noticed your other question: Nothing happened to Anna after Booker was baptised. The timeline only works if Anna/Elizabeth was born after the baptism. She was not born before.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
also here's a better timeline
http://i.imgur.com/MaHNjLo.jpg

There's no indication that Robert comes from the same timeline as Booker. There are an infinite number of universes, infinitely branching at all points in time. Robert exists in an infinite number of universes and does not exist is in an infinite number of universes (in some infinite number he's Rosalind, in other infinite number neither exist at all) Which specific universe and what specific time Rosalind pulled Robert through from is not made clear.

Likewise, it's very clear what happens in the "drowning" scene. It doesn't take place in ambiguous time at all. There is a fork in time that separates all universes where Booker takes the baptism from all universes where Booker does not take the baptism. So imagine a Y fork--the Elizabeths cut off one prong of the Y by ending all possibilities where Booker takes the baptism. It's not a third parallel universe, it's a node that is the ancestor of all possible Columbia-verses.
 

Nicktock

Neo Member
There's no indication that Robert comes from the same timeline as Booker. There are an infinite number of universes, infinitely branching at all points in time. Robert exists in an infinite number of universes and does not exist is in an infinite number of universes. Which specific universe and what specific time Rosalind pulled Robert through from is not made clear.

Likewise, it's very clear what happens in the "drowning" scene. It doesn't take place in ambiguous time at all. There is a fork in time that separates all universes where Booker takes the baptism from all universes where Booker does not take the baptism. So imagine a Y fork--the Elizabeths cut off one prong of the Y by ending all possibilities where Booker takes the baptism. It's not a third parallel universe, it's a node that is the ancestor of all possible Columbia-verses.

I think that's the best language I've seen so far addressing the nature of that little river setting where it ends. Clears things up.
 

K' Dash

Member
This Game was missing a Battle in the Sky with Songbird, that part in the gameplay video when Songbird take Liz and Booker runs after her immediately, oh God.
 
Well her pinky was missing, and of course Lady Comstock grew up in Columbia, she was raised there by Comstock. My theory sets the age of Elizabeth and Lady Comstock apart the same number of years as Booker and Comstock. Otherwise what happened to Anna after Booker was baptized?




Seems to me they just needed a cover for a baby suddenly appearing in their household. Didn't they mention a baby was born after one month? Maybe having two versions of Anna in one timeline is what killed Lady Comstock? I missed how she died. Comstock killed her? How?

Ok, it seems you've kind of confused the two answers to some extent. So:
Rosalind Lutece said:
What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is and more to do with what she's not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas with its porridge.
That is in Monument Island by Rosalind Lutece. It is about why Elizabeth can create tears. This directly states that it is her severed little finger that allows Elizabeth to create the tears because she simultaneously exists in two universes (although another user mentioned why others can't due to things like hair cells but to me this seems pretty irrelevant, the reason given is because of her finger/simultaneous existence, going further than that is going into minute insignificant detail that the writers probably never even considered thinking nobody would need an explanation on top of the explanation).

The timeline in both universes is precisely the same. You can see this in the Hall of Heroes' dates of birth and Booker's but the reason for the advanced aging is explained furthe/stated in the final (or the second last) Voxophone on the Hand of the Prophet,
Rosalind Lutece said:
The Prophet is dying. The metastasis has aged him so quickly. Why does this Comstock decay, while a Comstock in another world remains fit? If genetics are destiny, what accounts for the difference? Perhaps exposure to the contraption? Hm. It merits further study.
This makes sense considering how the machine is extremely hazardous to one's health by producing tumours, sterility and presumably more side effects. Whether it's similar to radiation exposure or not, who knows but it really doesn't matter.

Anna didn't exist after Booker was baptised. Only the gambling Booker had Anna. Everything surrounding Lady Comstock's is the following:
Comstock marries her (she is also extremely devoted to him) and becomes sterile due to the machine. Comstock murders his political opposition and she realises it which makes her question Comstock's divinity. Comstock attempted to have a child with her to allow Columbia to survive but was unable to do so due to being rendered sterile; he never realised he was sterile and asked for an affair with the female Lutece who declined. He used the Lutece's machine to take Anna, his child from an alternative universe, whose mother died during childbirth, to him. Lady Comstock made the obvious assumption that Comstock had an affair with the female Lutece and, even after they explained the reality, she could barely accept it; she concludes that Comstock is a monster. Comstock begs her for her silence since she is able to shatter the entire facade that he has created but, being both highly religious and highly moral, she cannot promise him silence (which would not lead to attonement) but only forgiveness. This promise sets into motion almost the entire chain of events as it forces Comstock to murder both her and the Luteces (which Fink attempts to make look like an accident by sabotaging the machine and trapping them in the timeline). This murder then frames Daisy Fitzroy who then leads the Vox. Basically the catalyst for a significant amount of events, particularly those related to the Vox.
As Sorian mentioned above, it seems very plausbile that Lady Comstock is the same lady Booker marries in both universe. I believe this originated from here:
In the Booker-verse his wife dies in childbirth. In the Comstock-verse there is no childbirth to kill her. I assumed that they are the same woman in each verse. This explains why they look alike.

EDIT:
This is the most accurate timeline, to my eyes. The only thing I'd add is that there are infiinite other universes (D, E, F, and so on) that we never directly see, which also converge at the Sea of Doors. That's why there are alternate versions of Elizabeth and Booker on the lighthouse walkways, and why multiple Elizabeths show up at the very end. What we can take this to mean is that when they go back to the baptism and drown Booker, they are actually drowning EVERY version of Booker at that point in time.

We can then look at the post-credits scene and deduce that this is a Booker who never even showed up to the baptism ... and therefore, Anna is safe.

I do have one question. Early in the game, after arriving at Columbia, you can see a statue in the distance being "changed" (through tear technology). It's the first time you get the "hold F to look" prompt. For the life of me, I can't remember who the statue is of, either before the change or after. Does this have any relevance?

No, this cannot occur. It is a constant. In every single universe where Booker survives Wounded Knee, he goes to the baptism, always. This is a certainty. In every single infinite set of infinites, Booker goes to the baptism if he survives. Basically, all of the universes funnel together (but they are still all different as some sets will have different memories and, simultaneously, some sets will have the same memories with miniscule differences like Booker choosing to take an extra step or eat a chocolate bar and so on). They drown every Booker that goes through Wounded Knee and survives. Booker can never not go to the baptism, it must happen, it's a constant like the coin landing on heads. Universes where Booker dies, or doesn't partake in Wounded Knee, are irrelevant to the plot of the game so considering them is pretty unnecessary. See Stump's explanation above if this isn't clear enough. They change the variable (acception or rejection) to a constant by making the other variable result in a paradox.

EDIT: The statue is a tear in which the statue of Roberrt Lutece turns to Rosalind Lutece, foreshadowing that they are the same person (in Comstock's set of timelines Rosalind Lutece is the 'original' one and Robert Lutece was brought over from another set of timelines).
 

PolishQ

Member
There's no indication that Robert comes from the same timeline as Booker. There are an infinite number of universes, infinitely branching at all points in time. Robert exists in an infinite number of universes and does not exist is in an infinite number of universes (in some infinite number he's Rosalind, in other infinite number neither exist at all) Which specific universe and what specific time Rosalind pulled Robert through from is not made clear.

When we see Comstock absconding with Anna (the pinky-cutting scene), Robert's dialogue seems to indicate that he has not traveled through a tear before. He is very hesitant about crossing over. This is evidence to suggest that the Robert that Rosalind contacted is the Robert from Booker's universe, and that Robert and Anna were brought to Columbia at the same time.
 

Sorian

Banned
As Sorian mentioned above, it seems very plausbile that Lady Comstock is the same lady Booker marries in both universe. I believe this originated from here:

Just to add another layer of evidence that is completely circumstantial. One of Lady Comstocks early diaries (I'm sorry that I don't quote the entire thing like others, I don't have the game handy) mentioned how Comstock had to forgive her of her sins and some of her diaries afterwards allude to the fact that she was deep into some type of wickedness (prostitution, gambling, who knows?) and that she was so devoted to Comstock because he was willing to forgive her of these sins. It makes sense that our Booker who was a heavy gambler and kind of a thug would end up falling in with a woman of similar evil intents.

When we see Comstock absconding with Anna (the pinky-cutting scene), Robert's dialogue seems to indicate that he has not traveled through a tear before. He is very hesitant about crossing over. This is evidence to suggest that the Robert that Rosalind contacted is the Robert from Booker's universe, and that Robert and Anna were brought to Columbia at the same time.

I believe he is hesitant, not because he has not traveled through a tear yet, but because the tear has not stabilized yet. You'll notice that he is perfectly willing to go through once the tear stops fluctuating on the wall. I'm sure the twins are well aware that a tear will slice right through the body and he just didn't want the tear to get too small while he was heading through. I feel like it is also safe to deduce that he knew the machine would stabilize the tear at some point since he and his "sister" made the machine.
 

Red

Member
I think my big problem with the vox populi is that I feel like they're made to be artificially bad just to maintain some weird grey balance between factions.

I mean, I can't help but think "yes, people that are slaved by other people, you are allowed to free yourselves and answer to your tormentors with righteous murder" because they are. it's just that they stop making sense after a while. why are they just blowing up everything? where do they even intend to live?
It's thematic. The cycle continues under a different banner.
 
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