whatevermort
Member
The paper is the cage whatever.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Escape Goat
Member
Playing through a second time is like watching the Prestige or Sixth Sense after seeing it once. You see all the hints and subtleties that you wouldn't have picked up on unless you knew the "secret".
Just finished the game, and wow WTF at the ending. Can someone sum it up for me? I get pieces such as that Anna Dewitt is Booker's infant daughter that he sold to get out of debt, and that Anna is really Elizabeth. I'm guessing he sold Anna to Comstock (Booker from another dimension) because Comstock himself couldn't have children.
Also what the hell happened at the very end? In order to remove Comstock, Booker died and because he died all of the Elizabeth's started fading, but then how did he survive to see Anna in the crib at the end?
By the way going back to Rapture was fucking awesome, and on another note, did they ever explain who Songbird was?
Also what the hell happened at the very end? In order to remove Comstock, Booker died and because he died all of the Elizabeth's started fading, but then how did he survive to see Anna in the crib at the end?
By the way going back to Rapture was fucking awesome, and on another note, did they ever explain who Songbird was?
The One Who Knocks
Member
I'm sure somebody else will have finished explaining the specifics by the time I'm finished so rather I'll link you to what I think is the resolution of the story: http://www.abload.de/img/endingtimeline9njbo.jpg
Others have suggested that the loop presented continues but personally I think that it's impossible due looping paradox it creates.
Edit: Guess not, so you're first paragraph is correct. Comstock saw New York burning at his daughter's hand. He needed a daughter but, unbeknownst to him, he was rendered sterile via the Lutece's machine. After attempting to have a child he resorted to takin his child from another universe.
As for Songbird, it's a fusion of man and machine. It was built by Fink observing something similar in another universe. Whether or not it was a tear into Rapture where the Big Daddy creation was observed isn't specified but it's ultimately irrelevant as an infinite number of universes possess the technology. As for 'who' it is, it's also not specified. Some have suggested Booker but while I think it fits into Booker wishing to always wanting to protect Elizabeth I feel it needlessly complicates the timeline a huge amount.
First she explains on the boardwalk that She was able to do that when she could control it but always wanted to remain home. Booker asks why and she sad she doesn't know, family perhaps. Secondly, as an adult she can't really control which timeline it is. It's a form of wish fulfilment (perhaps) in where she ends up but that doesn't necessarily means that all of te other variables in the universe would be good for her. She'd basically be stepping into an unknown universe with no way to get back (as she says to Booker with Chen and the guns, she's not able to bring them back) and no guarantee of safety.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
She says at one point that she did go through them while she was younger, but she always went back 'home' to the tower and songbird, because that was all she knew.
and as she grew older, she stopped being able to create new tears due to the siphon.
I watched the GIantbomb quicklook and they get to the part where you meet her for the first time and she opens a tear to Paris then and there. Granted she has a firetruck racing towards her so she has to close it again but what stops her from trying again?
The set-up for justifying the jump to Rapture is a stroke of brilliance. If it weren't so properly done, having the nod to the original Bioshock would've been too on the nose. The best thing? It's so subtle -- blink and you'd miss it detail in one of Fink's labs or wherever it was that had a small blueprint of Songbird's suit revealing that its weakness was high pressure.
I do think that if the ending was given more time to allow its ideas and concepts to breathe (though it is quite substantial at ~30 minutes long), I would've liked to see other possible cities. On the other hand, that single (probably game-defining) line from Elizabeth about there being, in all possibilities, "always a lighthouse, always a city, always a man" wouldn't have engaged the imagination as potently if they did show other fantastical cities.
If I had a favorite moment of the game, it'd be the scene with that line. It's perfect and isolated from any implausibilities or logical fallacies of the plot.
I just finished the game a couple hours ago. I enjoyed my first run on hard, but I don't feel the need to play it again. I am left with that yearning to "chase" the feeling I have after experiencing an ambitious story though. Good thing the GmG deal gave me Spec Ops free.
I do think that if the ending was given more time to allow its ideas and concepts to breathe (though it is quite substantial at ~30 minutes long), I would've liked to see other possible cities. On the other hand, that single (probably game-defining) line from Elizabeth about there being, in all possibilities, "always a lighthouse, always a city, always a man" wouldn't have engaged the imagination as potently if they did show other fantastical cities.
If I had a favorite moment of the game, it'd be the scene with that line. It's perfect and isolated from any implausibilities or logical fallacies of the plot.
I just finished the game a couple hours ago. I enjoyed my first run on hard, but I don't feel the need to play it again. I am left with that yearning to "chase" the feeling I have after experiencing an ambitious story though. Good thing the GmG deal gave me Spec Ops free.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Song bird was created by Fink after he saw the designs of big daddies from Rapture. He just remodeled it to work for high attitudes.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Anyone else feel a sense of panic when Elizabeth gets taken by the songbird and every room you go into you see things are spinning more and more out of control and she waited longer and longer for you to come and you didn't.
I was practically running through every section of that part.
I was practically running through every section of that part.
she can't create tears, but she can open ones that are already there
OK reading that graph still has me confused. Basically Elizabeth figured out that no matter what Booker did, they would still be in an infinite loop with infinite Columbias, so in order to stop the loop she had Booker drowned, thus removing all realities but Booker's own? (hence the after the credits scene where because Comstock wasn't involved, Booker still had his daughter)
SuperEpicGuy
Banned
Damn, that was one hell of an ending. After a nice, 3 essay-sized explanations the ending finally clicked in. Wish the developers would have provided some kind of FAQ about the story.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
No fun in that.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Finished it on Hard earlier. I had a few troubles (namely with Lady Comstock and the final battle) but overall it wasn't too difficult. Definitely going to hit 1999. Felt like I didn't take advantage of the vigours.
I like how they tied in the science findings/issues of the time into the plot (a la the original Bioshock). From seeing Elizabeth batter me with a copy of a book on
, I kind of predicted the secret of the
but had no idea they would go as far as they did with the ending. Very Alan Moore-like. Fantastic ending...
...but I can't seem to work out where
. I can't find a satisfying explanation as to why, no matter how hard I rack my brains. Is this mentioned in a Voxaphone I missed or...?
ALSO...
I like how they tied in the science findings/issues of the time into the plot (a la the original Bioshock). From seeing Elizabeth batter me with a copy of a book on
quantum mechanics
Lutece "Twins" with their experiments etc
...but I can't seem to work out where
Elizabeth got her powers
ALSO...
how (and in what way) was Booker in debt to an alternate version of himself...?
It's on the vox before you first meet with Elizabeth, I think!
"What makes the girl different? I suspect is has less to do with what she is, and rather more with what she is not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas mixed with its porridge. "
Edit: Beaten!
Uh. I like the "She is a time-space god" theory better. So now dead skin cells in one universe makes you a space time god? Do all the other characters that travel around through tears become gods to because hair foicles and skins cells are left behind?
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
She was born in one realities but lived in another and she is split physically in both(pinky) so her "link" allows her to be connected to both and see the tears.
Yup.
OK thinking about the ending a little bit more, it seems like Booker's reality is the only one remaining as all the others collapsed. Hence that Booker wakes up and finds Anna crying, as well as the fact that only one Elizabeth remained. (Her being a grown up Anna from Booker's timeline)
What I don't understand though is what happened to Elizabeth? Shouldn't she have been erased as well? Yes Booker's own timeline is still intact, but Elizabeth doesn't really belong in it... unless that by fixing space-time she somehow transformed back into a baby Anna in order to correct everything. (Given that Booker's own reality was the only one without an Anna)
What I don't understand though is what happened to Elizabeth? Shouldn't she have been erased as well? Yes Booker's own timeline is still intact, but Elizabeth doesn't really belong in it... unless that by fixing space-time she somehow transformed back into a baby Anna in order to correct everything. (Given that Booker's own reality was the only one without an Anna)
whatevermort
Member
Anybody else heading back to Bioshock 1 now? That Rapture moment have me such chills I feel like I need to head back there.
Oh yea, it doesn't. You could use a third party software to get it to work, I guess.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
But, as the following says:
Surely both
Booker and Comstock
Ugh really? Looks like I'll have to finally play the 360 version I've had for years.
On this game's note, I think I am through reading about it and theories, meaning etc. It is engrossing and interesting and creative and trippy and etc but... It almost feels cheapened in a way the more I really think about it. The whole setup, Columbia, the Vox, Fink, all the gameplay is inconsequential. All that matters is the relatively small circle of Booker/Comstock, Elizabeth and Lutece(s) and their last-third-of-the-game arc. Make Comstock a religious nut in Cuba who has a cult and nukes America, or Comstock is a nationalist Hitler-like and tries to genocide a race in Siberia because the setting is kind of meaningless. He wants an heir to fulfil his ambitions and jumps through time and space after a prior life changing event occurs to grab one from Other-Comstock. It's interesting, but everything else is just window dressing.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Basically, Elizabeth saw that Booker became Comstock. To prevent this happening she murdered every single Booker that existed in every universe that survived Wounded Knee and went to the baptism (which must always happen because it's a constant). This creates a looping paradox because it means (in very basic terms) that Booker was killed by his daughter before his daughter's conception. This leads to a destruction resolution whereby every probability that leads to this paradox is removed, because logically, a paradox cannot occur. Basically, originally, at the baptism there is two choices. Elizabeth makes it so that one of these choices cannot happen because otherwise it will lead to a paradox in every single universe that Booker survived Wounded Knee. As a result, they change the variable at the baptism (Booker can accept or reject it) to a constant (Booker must reject it because otherwise it leads to a paradox).
Edit: Yeah, your second post is correct. Anna is never sold to the Luteces and never becomes Elizabeth. Instead of this, Booker simply lives with Anna (although that doesn't necessarily mean they live happily). This is only my interpretation though.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Uno Venova
Banned
I'm planning to replay it soon, I'm very glad it came with infinite on the ps3 version. As far as atmosphere goes, I find that game better than infinite.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Did they actually say that was why her powers worked... ?Other than that they seemed to have covered every plot-hole really well considering the nature of the ending. Damn fine.
It holds up. Except for maybe the final few objectives which were a bit of a grind.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Infinite seems so much better realized to me than Bioshock though. I think a big part of that is coming into the world where there is still a resemblance of peace and tranquility whereas in Bioshock everything is already gone to hell by the time you get there.
Yeah they do:
"What makes the girl different? I suspect is has less to do with what she is, and rather more with what she is not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas mixed with its porridge. "
I think it needs to be something substantial. Just having a couple cells scattered about isn't enough.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
That is a damn fine explanation but (and I may have missed this) how do we know that Elizabeth murdered all the other Bookers?
maybe he learned that you don't just sell your daughter. Get a job and work your ass off to pay it off.
The real message: be a responsible parent.
They divert off small decisions. You go to a restaurant and have to decide between fish or steak. This creates two different realities, where everything is the same, but this one small decision.
Some decisions affect the world far more than others, but all of them create a new world.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The question is how does he owe Comstock a debt, if he is Comstock from a parallel reality...?
The One Who Knocks
Member
They aren't there are billions of trillions of infinites (an infinite set of infinite sets of infinite sets of infinite sets of etc.). Every single moment that ever exists spawns another infinite number of infinite sets. The scale of the number of potential universes cannot be grasped. For the purpose of the story though, we're only concerned with sets where the exact same thing occurred with the exception of certain events because it is this specific timeline (one out of infinite infinites) that changes the baptism variable to a constant (although again, that's my interpretation).
Edit:
An assumption based upon a few specific things; they were trying to smother Comstock at his 'birth' and if it was only a single Comstock they were drowning there would still exist another infinite set of Comstocks. Secondly, the male Lutece's goal was to reset the timeline (while we could play a failed version of this reset, I disagree that we do). Third, all of the Elizabeth's disappear because 'Elizabeth' no longer can exist because her existence becomes a paradox, only Anna can exist. Finally, Booker wakes up naturally at the ending on the day Anna was sold as opposed to being woken by the knocking (this assumes the first time we see the mandatory office sequence is a flashback of the day Anna was sold which I believe it is).
Edit: Actually, I forgot the big one, every single Booker that survived Wounded Knee will attend the baptism because that's a universal constant which means no Booker will ever not go.
Incendiary
Banned
That's a very succinct and awesome way to explain the post-credits ending. Very good.
The debt isn't owned to Comstock, it's debt accrued from degenerate gambling. I assume that in the "Booker is a degenerate alcoholic gambler" universe, he still has debt but doesn't end up selling Annah to pay it off.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Visually represented (at least partially) by all those stars! Which was beautiful, btw.
He doesn't owe Comstock money, Comstock paid off Booker's debts for Anna.
Why does everyone assume the debt is to Comstock? The debt is to Joe Blow, the street bookie living in New York somewhere. Comstock pays off Booker's debts when he gets the child.
Well maybe it wasn't Comstock who he was in debt for but instead Comstock or the Lutece offered to clear up the debt he might of been in.
Edit: Well there you go.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
So why does Boy Lettuce say that his debt to Comstock has been paid...?
Good point.
I think it's just me (see above).
I assume that the appropriate Lutece twin pays Bookers debt.
BlastProcessing
Member
I assume Comstock bought his marker.
When there are infinite realties, a lot of them are going to be almost identical.
Comstock traveled through a tear and bought Booker's gambling debt.
I lend you money, you don't have how to repay me, so you can have a friend of yours repay me so now you owe money to him instead of me.