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[Tesser]

Haven't really dove that much into the mind-set of the more focal Persona communities, but I wonder how much of a minority the group is I belong to that really didn't care much for Akechi as a character - be it as a person or simply his motives. I get the reasoning behind his actions, but the way it was executed and told in the story just felt a little half-arsed and lacking. There wasn't enough there for me to sympathise with or make him feel that "deep" or realised as a character. It's come to the point now where I enjoy Akechi shit-posting more than I do discussing the character himself.

Probably not alone, but the moment he was introduced in the game, my immediate thought was: "yep, you're the villain/the one who betrays me". You don't keep shoe-horning a character into cutscenes and over-do it on the nice guy attitude without their being some sort of important reasoning behind it. Thus for me, it lost all sense of intrigue pretty quickly. Quickly to the point I started thinking/hoping the twist was that it was one of the other party members who "sells out" post-Casino Palace - would have loved it for the game to throw a massive curveball like...Ryuji being the one who betrays the protagonist...especially given how much he "LOVES BEING A PHANTOM THIEF YOU GUYS!!!!". Though I did like the cutscenes thereafter that explained how the party managed to figure out what Akechi was up to.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I agree with this sentiment. While the P5 cast is made up of great individual characters (esp. my lovely Futaba), they don't quite come together as a group in the same way the P4 cast does. Like, I could imagine the P4 gang hanging out and becoming friends even if the Persona/TV world shit never happened. I don't really envision that scenario with the P5 cast.

The way I see it is that 4 is the abberation in the series where the playable gang became a TRUE circle of friends rather than like-minded individuals who fight for a common cause over a shared bond.

 

[RurouniZel]

The way I see it is that 4 is the abberation in the series where the playable gang became a TRUE circle of friends rather than like-minded individuals who fight for a common cause over a shared bond.

Exactly. By the end of the game (P4), I really felt like they all truly cared for each other and were best buds even when they didn't have to go save anyone. And while the P5 cast certainly shows how much they care about Joker specifically, I never got the feeling that they'd totally be a circle of friends down the road so much as individuals who occasionally check in on one another before going their own way again.

 

[PK Gaming]

Haven't really dove that much into the mind-set of the more focal Persona communities, but I wonder how much of a minority the group is I belong to that really didn't care much for Akechi as a character - be it as a person or simply his motives. I get the reasoning behind his actions, but the way it was executed and told in the story just felt a little half-arsed and lacking. There wasn't enough there for me to sympathise with or make him feel that "deep" or realised as a character. It's come to the point now where I enjoy Akechi shit-posting more than I do discussing the character himself.

Probably not alone, but the moment he was introduced in the game, my immediate thought was: "yep, you're the villain/the one who betrays me". You don't keep shoe-horning a character into cutscenes and over-do it on the nice guy attitude without their being some sort of important reasoning behind it. Thus for me, it lost all sense of intrigue pretty quickly. Quickly to the point I started thinking/hoping the twist was that it was one of the other party members who "sells out" post-Casino Palace - would have loved it for the game to throw a massive curveball like...Ryuji being the one who betrays the protagonist...especially given how much he "LOVES BEING A PHANTOM THIEF YOU GUYS!!!!". Though I did like the cutscenes thereafter that explained how the party managed to figure out what Akechi was up to.

You're not in the minority. Akechi's an incredibly divisive character, perhaps the most divisive Persona character ever. His characterization is undeniably flawed, and they made some baffling decisions with him, but still I like him. He could have been so much better though, goddamn.

Akechi being the traitor is intentionally obvious, though. The real twist is that the Phantom Thieves were onto him.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Incoherent Rambling incoming, because it's 2am but gosh was this good, can't wait until he morning.

Beat the game, my main thoughts are that it took me months 4+ months despite my playtime saying the game was only 70 hours long (hate having responsibilities) and that I hope I don't need to wait years for persona 6. Gotta go through the game again to get the other confidants I missed the first time. Basically didn't touch harus (despite her being in my party all the time from the moment she joined...), Futabas, Gun shop guy, arcade kid and hit stat requirements way too late to get rank max on some others, particularly Sojiros.

Goro being evil was far too obvious, especially since I actually noticed the pancake thing the first tine, which annoyed me when the game painted it as some big revelation months later that he heard Morgana then. I guess seeing how they planned it out to get around him was interesting, if needlessly convoluted. Had the same problem when the protagonist took forever to piece together that shido was the ass who got him arrested the first time, I kinda dislike being two steps ahead of the characters. Never really matched the persona 4 twist for me since I saw everything coming...except for fake Igor which was a amazing twist and use of the expectation that the Voice actor could be changed because of the of Japanese actor passing away. Well played and I had a great grin when I heard "welcome to the velvet room" again towards the end.


Except ryuji who was so far behind everyone else, I wanted to reach in to my TV and personally strangle him every time he yelled about being the phantom thieves in public.
How it took sae months to build a case when ryuji probably would have walked in to the goddamned police station and yelled GUESS WHOSE A PHANTOM THIEF, THIS GUY AND MY GROUP OF FRIENDS if anyone left him alone for even a second is beyond me.

Man, the next couple years are gonna be hard to get through without a persona RPG after the getting Persona Emblem last year and Persona 5 this though.

I have no clue how I'm going to pick a goty this year, it's normally really easy but I have at least four solid choices already...

Oh, and whims of fate is the best tune.

They'll make an excuse to bring him back for P5 Arena

I hope everyone's ready for the cognitive TV world existing and everyone from two games gathering in the same place for some reason.

 

[Makio]

I hope everyone's ready for the cognitive TV world existing and everyone from two games gathering in the same place for some reason.

Im more curious about the time travel / dimension bullshit they gonna pull off to bring 3 casts together in PQ2 , specially since P3 and P4 cast dont remember nothing of pQ1 ...so all those wacky interactions of the first one are coming back yay....

(Implying P3 is in the PQ2 that is)

 

[Danjin44]

Goro being evil was far too obvious,

Of course it was. That was never meant to be a twist. Heck before even the game came out it was obvious Goro was the bad guy because they never showed off his persona.

 

[Makio]

Of course it was. That was never meant to be a twist. Heck before even the game came out it was obvious Goro was the bad guy because they never showed off his persona.

Atlus hiding him all the time didnt help either but like someone say a few pages ago the twist was not that , the twist was how the whole game was part of the PT plan , how Goro never see it coming ...and of course who tf is the final boss, which still the best twist in the series hands down , almost wish i dont spoil myself before playing it and still got me.

 

[jungomitis]

Beat this game a few months back so I’m reflecting.

The beginning and end of the game, as commonly agreed, are brilliant. But the middle parts were somewhat dull - I even dropped the game for a few months.

I feel like many of the S-links were forced? Futaba’s character growth made sense, but Ann for example I never really understood why she wanted to become a model.

I wonder if the series would benefit from not tying character reveals and party joins with dungeons. The pattern became very predictable.

 

[TurnipFritters]

IIRC Ann was modeling as a side job for lack of anything better to do, but was inspired by how hard the other girl (the one that's going to appear in spinoffs because she conspicuously had a character portrait) was working to be a model that she wanted to really push herself and become a great model. The overall message is something about giving 110% instead of just coasting (which is what Ann had been doing).

 

[Makio]

Im fine with Ann SL , and baised bc she is my phantom thief gal... but im more bother for the Makoto one , started well but soon the other chick is introduced the whole thing turn into that ... by the end of it Makoto learn something or was worth it ? , my memory is fuzzy but after they drop the other and his boyfriend sub plot all i remember is me thinking if Makoto is worth to date or not haha.

 

[Mediking]

Goro should have NEVER been evil to begin with. Just a shame they made that guy evil.

 

[Autoignition]

I look away from this thread for a couple of months while I get dragged into Yakuza hell, and y'all are back to calling my boy Akechi evil.

Akechi was working under duress. That doesn't make him evil.

 

[Mediking]

I look away from this thread for a couple of months while I get dragged into Yakuza hell, and y'all are back to calling my boy Akechi evil.

Akechi was working under duress. That doesn't make him evil.

Goro Akechi IS evil.

Killing people is murder.

Its messed up that he was evil.

He shouldn't have been evil.

He could've joined simply because he hated how much pressure he got like Makoto.

 

[Autoignition]

Goro Akechi IS evil.

Killing people is murder.

Its messed up that he was evil.

He shouldn't have been evil.

He could've joined simply because he hated how much pressure he got like Makoto.

I see you didn't read my post, so I'll just retype it.

Akechi was working under duress. That doesn't make him evil.

 

[Mediking]

I see you didn't read my post, so I'll just retype it.

Akechi was working under duress. That doesn't make him evil.

I looked up what duress meant. Lol

Uhhh... well.....

 

[Autoignition]

I looked up what duress meant. Lol

Uhhh... well.....

If you were 15 years old and found yourself in a situation with extremely powerful men that could either ruin your entire life forever or just outright kill you unless you did what they said, would you do what they said?

At 15, I would have. Hell, at 28, I still might.

Akechi was killing under duress, and it was clear that he took no joy in it. He ran away to vomit when he watched Okumura's breakdown on TV, and he was fucked up emotionally after he thought he killed Joker.

He's not like Adachi, who thought it was a fun game. Akechi was a lonely kid in an impossible situation who just wanted a way out, and by the time he realized he was in over his head, he thought his only recourse was to play along until he could utterly ruin the man who stole his innocence away.

 

[arturo2666]

I look away from this thread for a couple of months while I get dragged into Yakuza hell, and y'all are back to calling my boy Akechi evil.

Akechi was working under duress. That doesn't make him evil.

I mean the game certainly tries to make him more of a gray area, but I think his redemption is not pulled off very well, which is why he's kind of just evil.

 

[daevious]

Goro Akechi IS evil.

Killing people is murder.

Its messed up that he was evil.

He shouldn't have been evil.

He could've joined simply because he hated how much pressure he got like Makoto.

Goro being evil is the whole crux of his character. He could have potentially been good, his entire stint during the casino dungeon is basically a look into what Goro would be like without Shido's influence in his life.

Without that he'd be a really dull character.

 

[Autoignition]

I mean the game certainly tries to make him more of a gray area, but I think his redemption is not pulled off very well, which is why he's kind of just evil.

Poor execution doesn't mean the core of the character changes. Akechi is, at his core, chaotic neutral. Good and evil come second to his desire to be free.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Poor execution doesn't mean the core of the character changes. Akechi is, at his core, chaotic neutral. Good and evil come second to his desire to be free.

What he wants to be does not replace what he is.

 

[Autoignition]

What he wants to be does not replace what he is.

You clearly do not understand how D&D alignments work.

 

[Mediking]

If you were 15 years old and found yourself in a situation with extremely powerful men that could either ruin your entire life forever or just outright kill you unless you did what they said, would you do what they said?

At 15, I would have. Hell, at 28, I still might.

Akechi was killing under duress, and it was clear that he took no joy in it. He ran away to vomit when he watched Okumura's breakdown on TV, and he was fucked up emotionally after he thought he killed Joker.

He's not like Adachi, who thought it was a fun game. Akechi was a lonely kid in an impossible situation who just wanted a way out, and by the time he realized he was in over his head, he thought his only recourse was to play along until he could utterly ruin the man who stole his innocence away.

Goro being evil is the whole crux of his character. He could have potentially been good, his entire stint during the casino dungeon is basically a look into what Goro would be like without Shido's influence in his life.

Without that he'd be a really dull character.

Whoa, whoa... hold on...

In the GRAND SCHEME of things... this was all a GAME, right? Akechi was given power as part of the game. Same as Joker, right???

 

[Autoignition]

Whoa, whoa... hold on...

In the GRAND SCHEME of things... this was all a GAME, right? Akechi was given power as part of the game. Same as Joker, right???

We don't know. We may never know. Because Atlus never saw it fit to tell us what it was, exactly, that Yaldabaoth told Akechi -- or if Akechi ever had access to the Velvet Room at all.

And even if he did, it's not like he knew it was a game. Joker didn't know until the very end.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

You clearly do not understand how D&D alignments work.

I've never played D&D, so my grasp on it is limited (but I have worked on a D&D video game before). However, I do know what "evil" entails, and I know that whatever personal motivations might guide a character to do what they do, their actions will truly decide who they are. Despite being egoistic with the pretense of righting wrongs, Light from Death Note is an evil character.

Most people agree that Akechi is evil. Because he is. However reluctant he might have been in the path that decided his fate.

 

[Autoignition]

I've never played D&D, so my grasp on it is limited (but I have worked on a D&D video game before). However, I do know what "evil" entails, and I know that whatever personal motivations might guide a character to do what they do, their actions will truly decide who they are. Despite being egoistic with the pretense of righting wrongs, Light from Death Note is an evil character.

Most people agree that Akechi is evil. Because he is.

Let me break down for you what chaotic neutral means, then. A chaotic neutral character may do things that are perceived as evil -- and some things that are perceived as good -- but it's their motivation that differentiates them from truly evil characters. A chaotic neutral character doesn't enact evil for the sake of evil. A chaotic neutral character performs evil acts in an attempt to secure their own personal freedom.

That is Akechi. Akechi's not an evil character by traditional standards -- he takes no joy in killing, and the game makes it clear that it's not what he ever wanted to do and that he wouldn't do it if he had the choice. But he very clearly does not have a choice. Shido openly threatens him on screen. Either Akechi pulled the trigger on people, or it was his own life that would be forfeit.

An evil character is someone like Kamoshida, who is an evil sack of shit because he's a sadist who gets off on torturing young kids. You can't honestly tell me that Akechi is on Kamoshida's level.

 

[Mediking]

We don't know. We may never know. Because Atlus never saw it fit to tell us what it was, exactly, that Yaldabaoth told Akechi -- or if Akechi ever had access to the Velvet Room at all.

And even if he did, it's not like he knew it was a game. Joker didn't know until the very end.

Interesting.

For the record, I DO LIKE Akechi. He's hype. He has a cool Persona costume and he meshed well with the group when he was "pretending" to be good.

I just hate what really turned what he did. I didn't like his boss fight. Didn't like how he shot Joker. Didn't like how Joker didn't have voiced lines in that scene. Didn't like he was Shido's son.

I would've preferred him in a whole different way.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

That is Akechi. Akechi's not an evil character by traditional standards -- he takes no joy in killing, and the game makes it clear that it's not what he ever wanted to do and that he wouldn't do it if he had the choice. But he very clearly does not have a choice. Shido openly threatens him on screen. Either Akechi pulled the trigger on people, or it was his own life that would be forfeit.

During the phone call in the final Sae Palace scene, isn't it Akechi's own suggestion to kill the rest of the Phantom Thieves? Doesn't he visibly express a twisted joy in envisioning how he will kill off the rest of Joker's teammates?

 

[Autoignition]

During the phone call in the final Sae Palace scene, isn't it Akechi's own suggestion to kill the rest of the Phantom Thieves? Doesn't he visibly express a twisted joy in envisioning how he will kill off the rest of Joker's teammates?

No, Akechi actually tries to convince Shido not to pursue the rest of the Thieves.

 

[Mediking]

We all can agree that Makoto gets pushed really hard, right?

She gets Persona 4 levels of pushing. Lol

 

[Makio]

We all can agree that Makoto gets pushed really hard, right?

IDK dude i feel Futaba is given the spotlight more , maybe bc her palace is about her vs the palace Makoto is introduced is about a random dude she cross.

But yeah i feel the most "pushed" char in the history is Futaba , is not her fault , she is too conected to the story /MC cant be helped.

Even Akechi feels more pushed , but there again the guy is given the ultimate antagonist role so ... cant be helped either.

 

[Ouroboros]

Akechi was killing under duress, and it was clear that he took no joy in it.

Must have been powerful duress if the power of friendship couldn't break him of it.

Edit: This was a joke, I completely agree with you that Akechi was not evil and was just very misguided and snapped at somepoint as well.

 

[Danjin44]

Must have been powerful duress if the power of friendship couldn't break him of it.

Edit: This was a joke, I completely agree with you that Akechi was not evil and was just very misguided and snapped at somepoint as well.

Of course he wasn't evil? When he came to coffee shop and told us about his father and mother, it was clear why he was doing this why he was willing to go this far. He is not like light from Death Note.

Spoiler

The only reason light was even doing all this was he was bored and halfway through it be came more about wining the "game" and less about his original goal.

 

[PK Gaming]

Going by the very basic definition of evil (ie: profoundly immoral and malevolent) no, Goro isn't evil. That said, he murders people, and tries to justify said murders. He devotes himself wholly to getting revenge, and doesn't care about the damage he causes in the process. He's a bad person, but it's easy to understand why he's that way.

I think at his core, Goro's just a kid with an awful upbringing given too much power. I think if I were in his shoes, I'd probably run wild too. (Forgot killing people with a purpose; I'd just go nuts).

We all can agree that Makoto gets pushed really hard, right?

She gets Persona 4 levels of pushing. Lol

Makoto "we really want you to like her" Nijima definitely gets pushed, lmao.

 

[Danjin44]

Going by the very basic definition of evil (ie: profoundly immoral and malevolent) no, Goro isn't evil. That said, he murders people, and tries to justify said murders. He devotes himself wholly to getting revenge, and doesn't care about the damage he causes in the process. He's a bad person, but it's easy to understand why he's that way.

That makes him very "human" character and honestly thats what I like about him.

 

[Makio]

He still a weak antagonist to me ... but way better than i was bored / the world is shit Adachi.

Spoiler

Ultimax

Adachi is better tho.

 

[PK Gaming]

He still a weak antagonist to me ... but way better than i was bored / the world is shit Adachi.

Spoiler

Ultimax

Adachi is better tho.

This post is disastrously wrong Makio.

 

[Makio]

Wrong or not is not like im gonna my opinion of those two , im actually waiting for Spinoffs Goro , maybe the spinoffs (or remake) can sell me the character better than the main game did

It kinda did for Adachi , so there hope.

 

[Mediking]

IDK dude i feel Futaba is given the spotlight more , maybe bc her palace is about her vs the palace Makoto is introduced is about a random dude she cross.

But yeah i feel the most "pushed" char in the history is Futaba , is not her fault , she is too conected to the story /MC cant be helped.

Even Akechi feels more pushed , but there again the guy is given the ultimate antagonist role so ... cant be helped either.

Makoto "we really want you to like her" Nijima definitely gets pushed, lmao.

That whole signature thing of Makoto following you around while reading manga should've been given to HARU or Akechi or even Yusuke.

Makoto didn't even NEED that to become popular but the fact that she does that is just another reason why she's popular. And it's another reason why I think P5 team (either intentionally or unintentionally) pushed her.

Man, they really should've introduced or teased Haru earlier in the game. Like you go up to the rooftops of the school to think about how to save Yusuke and you run into Haru. I dunno. Just something to have you talking to her early. Or maybe I just missed that you can see Haru early in the game?

 

[Makio]

. Or maybe I just missed that you can see Haru early in the game?

She is in a cutscene during the Firework Festival (in July) and Makoto mention she looks familiar or something, after that you can see her until (September i think) days before going to Hawaii when you actually can speak to her... but she dont do much until her father palace.

 

[Captains Curse]

Just beat the game last night. absolutely loved it and had a great time on the ps3 version.


Really was hoping for more of a reveal with

Spoiler

Morgana.

That was the only twist I was looking forward to by the end of the game.

Overall, I loved the art and play styles. Already got p4G loaded up on the vita.

 

[Käebi]

Goddamn, I got this game on launch but still took 6 months and 190 hours to beat it. Whatever.

Great game, but the end really felt cut short.
The group dynamic never reached P4-level, which was a bummer because I love the cast. :/

Also I had high hopes for some more lore in the end. The Igor twist was insane! I remember how I was confused about his voice and read something like "they changed the english voice actor to sound more like the japanese one" and I believed them lol.
But I crave for some canon connection between the Persona games. Hell, Igor, you have to deal with some crazy gods every few years, tell me about it!

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

I'm near the end of the game and to be honest I'm not too crazy about the last stretch of story. I liked the sci-fi aspect of the metanav & Futaba's mom's research. They lost me at fake igor, two Gods, twins combining into some new kid or wherever this story is going.

 

[Curufinwe]

FIgor was a great twist.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

FIgor was a great twist.

Am I missing something? Why? Do i have to play previous games to get it?

 

[StarCreator]

Am I missing something? Why? Do i have to play previous games to get it?

Igor is a Persona series mainstay. He has always been the Velvet Room boss, who comes to the game's protagonist and helps him learn about his Persona abilities and perform fusions. He has always been on the player's side, without ulterior motive.

You see a bit of the real Igor at the end of the game, but the false Igor is a pretty big departure for the series, especially if you don't catch on to all the little hints that something is amiss.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Am I missing something? Why? Do i have to play previous games to get it?

Kinda, yeah. A lot of people thought that it was a great twist, and most of it is because of how it subverts the expectations from all the previous Persona games.

There are subtle hints letting the player know that something is off with the Velvet Room this time, but they're subtle in a way that players won't think twice about it and just dismiss them as aesthetic differences.

In short, when Igor's Japanese VA died, Atlus showed a reluctance to replace him, and they reused previous lines of his in new projects. This is part of why everyone freaked out when they saw him in trailer PV01, because it was still up in the air if Igor was really going to be returning for P5 after all this.

So when his new voice was heard, the vast majority of the fans who knew about this situation then presumed that it was Atlus finally moving on with the character, and intentionally giving him a distinctive new voice instead of trying to mimic the old one. No one thought anything past that.

So when the fact that there WAS a reason for the change in voice happened, that took everyone by surprise, because it's not something they had been actively thinking about. This was set up from the very first voice you hear when starting the game.

1. There are twin Velvet Room attendants for a single host instead of one.
2. Igor doesn't fuse himself, the attendants do it.
3. Fusing is done in a very vicious way that is not the same as how the previous games were.
4. The Velvet Room host does not sign a contract or receive a key when entering this Velvet Room, a crucial element.
5. Neither of the attendants have a grimoire.
6. Instead of being a welcoming environment where the host's path appears open, this one is an oppressive one where his fate seems sealed.
7. Fake Igor saying "Welcome to MY Velvet Room" instead of "Welcome to the Velvet Room."

Etc.

All of these reasons are why this twist cannot just be said to be tacked on. It fits into the core of Persona 5's theme, as well as the motivations of the final boss. The spirit of rebellion extends towards the one thing in the series you wouldn't think you'd be rebelling against. This is why I say that those who have played previous titles in the Persona series, and have inevitably spent tons of time inside the Velvet Room and with Igor, would be particularly affected by this twist instead of those who have only played Persona 5.

 

[SoulUnison]

The more I think about this game and the more time goes by since I finished it, the more I want to know what the "Winter 2015" version looked like.
I'm constantly struck by they way they kept holding the game back to add onto it, but I can't shake the feeling that we ended up with a game that tries to do a lot but succeeds at only a little because it couldn't reign in its ambitions.

Presentation and style is top-notch, but it doesn't seem to even understand what's so attractive about its own premise.
I'll never understand how they managed to make a game about living a double life as a high schooler by day and a team of supernatural gentleman thieves by night so gosh-dang boring around the "phantom thieves" part.

It was very much something the game used to color itself more than something that actually meaningfully informed the plot, the setting and your actions.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm still bitter that they couldn't get Igor's old voice to come back

It kind of ruined the moment for me. I watched the Japanese version of the sequence, and it was far more special

 

[ClearMetal]

About the contract that the protagonist doesn't sign... When I first played the game, I figured the actual contract was the one the police interrogator hands you in the prologue. You can choose your name and the interrogator says they're going to make sure you take full responsibility for your actions... which is pretty much the same thing Igor makes you promise in P4 when you sign the contract. Later on I realized that can't be the case, because it may have been the prologue, but it takes place in November in-game. Awfully late to sign the contract that grants you access to the Velvet Room in the first place.

But I replayed that part last week and I noticed Lavenza appears in front of you not much later (as a butterfly). That got me thinking: what if that was the actual Velvet Room contract, but only very late into the game because it's only at that point (more or less, if you answer Sae's questions right) that your on the route to the good ending and thus Igor's release?

I don't know. Maybe I'm late to the party and this theory is already widespread. But the dots suddenly connected when I replayed the beginning of the game and I think it makes some sense.