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[Holundrian]

Given that I'm someone of questionable morality I get a comedic kick out of the shuraba event :-x I still think that all the actual romantic dating elements are awful in P5 and it's especially annoying how they intrude on you even if you want to ignore them.

That "DO YOU REALLY WANT TO ENTER SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP, CONSIDER CAREFULLY!" prompt every goddamn time you reach a certain level with most of the female Confidants was really immersion breaking for me. I feel like the game would have been better for it if they just removed those. They really took me out of it during my time and very much made me think about, oh yeah this is a game and those aren't actual people ... :/

Even from a gameplay perspective I'd say it would be better to put that super small hurdle in for people trying to not cheat.
But in general I think those elements are very under cooked.

 

[Taruranto]

Stop explaining your character development, dammit. This whole part feels almost amateurish.

Also Goro reminds me of a worse version of

Spoiler

Jun

. Foil to the protagonist, unwilling pawn in a game between two deities,

Spoiler

massive amount of homoeroticism,

daddy issues. Granted their characters are fundamentally different, but the groundwork feels the same.

The game's writing took a nosedive at the end of palace 6, starting with the party suddenly learning how to play 4d chess.

 

[MetalGearOnlineK]

I'm in Mementos depths, just reached the first save room. Anyone have any idea how long I have left, or how long whatever dungeons that take place on 12/24 are compared to the rest? My interest has died down over the course of December, kinda waiting for the finale now.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

The game's writing took a nosedive at the end of palace 6, starting with the party suddenly learning how to play 4d chess.

In a team with Futaba, Makoto, Morgana and presumably the protagonist—all smarter and more clever than anyone in P4's Investigation Team barring Naoto when it's convenient—I really don't think this part of the story is unbelievable or unrealistic for them.

I'd say it was a triumph that the writers actually didn't write them like idiots for once, unlike the numerous games where you can see a heel-turn coming from a mile away but the protagonists act dumb until it happens.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

In a team with Futaba, Makoto, Morgana and presumably the protagonist—all smarter and more clever than anyone in P4's Investigation Team barring Naoto when it's convenient—I really don't think this part of the story is unbelievable or unrealistic for them.

I'd say it was a triumph that the writers actually didn't write them like idiots for once, unlike the numerous games where you can see a heel-turn coming from a mile away but the protagonists act dumb until it happens.

seriously though. Its a fucking miracle in anime style writing to see the protagonists pull off some bomb ass preventive measures.

All the other writing around Akechi aside, this shit was amazing.

Though Narukami would also hold up to anyone on the P5 crew barring Futaba

 

[PK Gaming]

In a team with Futaba, Makoto, Morgana and presumably the protagonist—all smarter and more clever than anyone in P4's Investigation Team barring Naoto when it's convenient—I really don't think this part of the story is unbelievable or unrealistic for them.

I'd say it was a triumph that the writers actually didn't write them like idiots for once, unlike the numerous games where you can see a heel-turn coming from a mile away but the protagonists act dumb until it happens.

Relevant

 

[Guess Who]

It would've been tremendously worse if the protagonists had been blindsided by Akechi given how obvious he is to the player.

 

[chrominance]

In a team with Futaba, Makoto, Morgana and presumably the protagonist—all smarter and more clever than anyone in P4's Investigation Team barring Naoto when it's convenient—I really don't think this part of the story is unbelievable or unrealistic for them.

I'd say it was a triumph that the writers actually didn't write them like idiots for once, unlike the numerous games where you can see a heel-turn coming from a mile away but the protagonists act dumb until it happens.

I didn't necessarily have a problem with them being smart enough to create this fiendish trap. My issue was that it happens all at once, mostly in the service of dramatic tension, and as a result the explanation of the plan suffers. They show you literally none of the thinking behind their amazing plot until after it's all over; there's no groundwork for a plan that has a lot of moving pieces and obviously involved a lot of planning that you conveniently forget in order not to spoil the surprise. So then the only way to explain it to the player is to spend 20 minutes infodumping exposition, which is then followed by another lengthy conversation where Shido and Akechi infodump past one another in a poor facsimile of a human conversation. It's a clunky way to explain that part of the plot that ranks as one of the weakest moments in the game for me, right alongside Morgana having a temper tantrum because the rest of the team didn't immediately fall into lockstep with him about pursuing Okumura (which it turns out they were RIGHT to be concerned about).

 

[Sub_Level]

I'm in Mementos depths, just reached the first save room. Anyone have any idea how long I have left, or how long whatever dungeons that take place on 12/24 are compared to the rest? My interest has died down over the course of December, kinda waiting for the finale now.

Depending on how (un)prepared you are, you could be a few hours from the end or 10.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Though Narukami would also hold up to anyone on the P5 crew barring Futaba

Yeah, I kinda omitted him because he goes without saying. Yu's been written as Mr. Perfect pretty much since the start.

Yukiko is up there in terms of book smarts, but it sure doesn't manifest itself outside of that.

I didn't necessarily have a problem with them being smart enough to create this fiendish trap. My issue was that it happens all at once, mostly in the service of dramatic tension, and as a result the explanation of the plan suffers. They show you literally none of the thinking behind their amazing plot until after it's all over; there's no groundwork for a plan that has a lot of moving pieces and obviously involved a lot of planning that you conveniently forget in order not to spoil the surprise. So then the only way to explain it to the player is to spend 20 minutes infodumping exposition, which is then followed by another lengthy conversation where Shido and Akechi infodump past one another in a poor facsimile of a human conversation. It's a clunky way to explain that part of the plot that ranks as one of the weakest moments in the game for me, right alongside Morgana having a temper tantrum because the rest of the team didn't immediately fall into lockstep with him about pursuing Okumura (which it turns out they were RIGHT to be concerned about).

Obscuring very specific moments involving the planning process through the explanation of the drugs affecting the protagonist's memories was indeed arbitrary, but I give that a pass because of the impact it lends to the twist. It's a valid argument, and I can see how people felt it was off because of that, but it didn't bother me, and those times where the protagonist's memory selectively lapsed contributed to the mystery and the narrative framing.

The exposition dump was pretty heavy, but I also enjoyed it for what it was, because of how unexpected it all was for me, when it had actually been going on in the background for a while before it happens. If they had hinted at it too much, the whole suspense from the game's intro and what it entailed would be ruined. Players are naturally so fixated on the fact that there's a potential traitor in the group, that the protagonist is in a bad spot, and that no one expected it, that they don't stop to think that it was all part of their plan. I think the obfuscation was worth it for that.

 

[Griss]

Stop explaining your character development, dammit. This whole part feels almost amateurish.

Also Goro reminds me of a worse version of

Spoiler

Jun

. Foil to the protagonist, unwilling pawn in a game between two deities,

Spoiler

massive amount of homoeroticism,

daddy issues. Granted their characters are fundamentally different, but the groundwork feels the same.

The game's writing took a nosedive at the end of palace 6, starting with the party suddenly learning how to play 4d chess.

As to the bolded, oh yeah. From then until the end credits was nonsense.

I didn't necessarily have a problem with them being smart enough to create this fiendish trap. My issue was that it happens all at once, mostly in the service of dramatic tension, and as a result the explanation of the plan suffers. They show you literally none of the thinking behind their amazing plot until after it's all over; there's no groundwork for a plan that has a lot of moving pieces and obviously involved a lot of planning that you conveniently forget in order not to spoil the surprise. So then the only way to explain it to the player is to spend 20 minutes infodumping exposition, which is then followed by another lengthy conversation where Shido and Akechi infodump past one another in a poor facsimile of a human conversation. It's a clunky way to explain that part of the plot that ranks as one of the weakest moments in the game for me, right alongside Morgana having a temper tantrum because the rest of the team didn't immediately fall into lockstep with him about pursuing Okumura (which it turns out they were RIGHT to be concerned about).

What really bothered me about it was that the 'twist' relied on the one thing I thought the game was absolutely terrible at explaining - how entering / exiting the metaverse actually worked. Where the border between the real world and the metaverse started, and how the process of crossing it worked. In P4, for example, you jump into a TV. Clear barrier.

In P5, you press the Nav, and the game screen goes wonky with red circles. You're now in the Metaverse. But did other people see you disappear? And does the metaverse stretch forever in all directions? How can it be that you can't tell whether you're in it or not? How can cognitions know things that only the actual character would know? And so on and so forth... it was very 'wooly' logic.

And I was fine with that! But when the twist revolved entirely around Goro brining police into the Metaverse without them realising it (uh, Casino... hello?), then exiting the Metaverse, then entering the Metaverse without realising it due to Futaba's planted app... it was all so damn wooly, vague. This only got worse at the end of the game when mementos fuses with the world and all kinds of nonsense reasons are thrown out for people not seeing the effects save for Joker's friends. I don't know, it didn't engage me at all, and I felt like the entire plot was operating purely on 'the rule of cool' at that point, rather than anything coherent or meaningful.

Obscuring very specific moments involving the planning process through the explanation of the drugs affecting the protagonist's memories was indeed arbitrary, but I give that a pass because of the impact it lends to the twist. It's a valid argument, and I can see how people felt it was off because of that, but it didn't bother me, and those times where the protagonist's memory selectively lapsed contributed to the mystery and the narrative framing.

The exposition dump was pretty heavy, but I also enjoyed it for what it was, because of how unexpected it all was for me, when it had actually been going on in the background for a while before it happens. If they had hinted at it too much, the whole suspense from the game's intro and what it entailed would be ruined. Players are naturally so fixated on the fact that there's a potential traitor in the group, that the protagonist is in a bad spot, and that no one expected it, that they don't stop to think that it was all part of their plan. I think the obfuscation was worth it for that.

But I think every player would have expected that to be part of the plan once it becomes clear that Joker is probably being interrogated in the Metaverse. He was captured in the metaverse and it was stated that the police station was a part of Sae's metaverse. The second they stated that it was obvious that Joker hadn't left. Of course, as it turns out he DID leave and was brought back by Futaba, but once they said 'wow the police station is here and it looks the exact same' then the stuff from the start was clearly signposted.

Also, they should have had Goro shoot someone else other than MC. There was no tension to that as we know it's not the kind of game where the MC can die. Had he shot Makoto or something, you'd be thinking 'Hmm... maybe...'.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

And I was fine with that! But when the twist revolved entirely around Goro brining police into the Metaverse without them realising it (uh, Casino... hello?)

Are you sure? I thought the police that were assigned to capture the Phantom Thief leader knew full well they had been brought into the Metaverse?

 

[QisTopTier]

Are you sure? I thought the police that were assigned to capture the Phantom Thief leader knew full well they had been brought into the Metaverse?

The police were in on it, they slam that in your face pretty often

 

[Griss]

Are you sure? I thought the police that were assigned to capture the Phantom Thief leader knew full well they had been brought into the Metaverse?

The police were in on it, they slam that in your face pretty often

But I was under the impression that the general public / police / everyone had no idea about the metaverse, and that there was general skepticism about the phantom thieves' methods. I thought it was only Shido and his 'elite' connections who had that info.

So the presence of the metaverse was just a known thing and the police just entered it? Huh, alright then. That certainly passed me by. Confused the fuck out of me to be honest, how he got the police in there without that being a huge deal.

 

[Guess Who]

This only got worse at the end of the game when mementos fuses with the world and all kinds of nonsense reasons are thrown out for people not seeing the effects save for Joker's friends. I don't know, it didn't engage me at all, and I felt like the entire plot was operating purely on 'the rule of cool' at that point, rather than anything coherent or meaningful.

This part, at least, was mostly just them being extremely on-the-nose with the political metaphor they were going for - that real-world Tokyo is already becoming a hellscape but most people are too afraid or distracted to do anything about it, so they just try to ignore it.

But I was under the impression that the general public / police / everyone had no idea about the metaverse, and that there was general skepticism about the phantom thieves' methods. I thought it was only Shido and his 'elite' connections who had that info.

So the presence of the metaverse was just a known thing and the police just entered it? Huh, alright then. That certainly passed me by. Confused the fuck out of me to be honest, how he got the police in there without that being a huge deal.

The Metaverse isn't known to the general public, but it IS known to Shido, Akechi, and those in power due to Wakaba's research. Presumably they briefed a special segment of the police force to help them out.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

But I think every player would have expected that to be part of the plan once it becomes clear that Joker is probably being interrogated in the Metaverse. He was captured in the metaverse and it was stated that the police station was a part of Sae's metaverse. The second they stated that it was obvious that Joker hadn't left. Of course, as it turns out he DID leave and was brought back by Futaba, but once they said 'wow the police station is here and it looks the exact same' then the stuff from the start was clearly signposted.

Um... come again? What do you mean he was brought back by Futaba? And I never thought about Joker being interrogated in the Metaverse after we see the capture unfold; it was clear he had been brought back into the real world to me.

 

[RalchAC]

As to the bolded, oh yeah. From then until the end credits was nonsense.



What really bothered me about it was that the 'twist' relied on the one thing I thought the game was absolutely terrible at explaining - how entering / exiting the metaverse actually worked. Where the border between the real world and the metaverse started, and how the process of crossing it worked. In P4, for example, you jump into a TV. Clear barrier.

In P5, you press the Nav, and the game screen goes wonky with red circles. You're now in the Metaverse. But did other people see you disappear? And does the metaverse stretch forever in all directions? How can it be that you can't tell whether you're in it or not? How can cognitions know things that only the actual character would know? And so on and so forth... it was very 'wooly' logic.

And I was fine with that! But when the twist revolved entirely around Goro brining police into the Metaverse without them realising it (uh, Casino... hello?), then exiting the Metaverse, then entering the Metaverse without realising it due to Futaba's planted app... it was all so damn wooly, vague. This only got worse at the end of the game when mementos fuses with the world and all kinds of nonsense reasons are thrown out for people not seeing the effects save for Joker's friends. I don't know, it didn't engage me at all, and I felt like the entire plot was operating purely on 'the rule of cool' at that point, rather than anything coherent or meaningful.



But I think every player would have expected that to be part of the plan once it becomes clear that Joker is probably being interrogated in the Metaverse. He was captured in the metaverse and it was stated that the police station was a part of Sae's metaverse. The second they stated that it was obvious that Joker hadn't left. Of course, as it turns out he DID leave and was brought back by Futaba, but once they said 'wow the police station is here and it looks the exact same' then the stuff from the start was clearly signposted.

Also, they should have had Goro shoot someone else other than MC. There was no tension to that as we know it's not the kind of game where the MC can die. Had he shot Makoto or something, you'd be thinking 'Hmm... maybe...'.

First dungeon. Ann enters in the Metaverse from the first time and meet Ryuji, Morgana and you at the entrance.

They decide to force her to leave the Metaverse and Ryuji basically asks: we should cross the same spot where we came in to leave, right?

The real police only saw the back alley though, which looked mostly normal.

And the series is known for having Bad Endings. Persona 4 is infamous because of how easy it was to fail in a couple of specific scenes and trigger one of those.

 

[Griss]

This part, at least, was mostly just them being extremely on-the-nose with the political metaphor they were going for - that real-world Tokyo is already becoming a hellscape but most people are too afraid or distracted to do anything about it, so they just try to ignore it.

All of the metaphors in the game were insanely on-the-nose, yeah. The writing was the opposite of subtle from start to finish. But subtle or not, I just wish the game's internal logic was clearer than that.

Um... come again? What do you mean he was brought back by Futaba? And I never thought about the Joker being interrogated in the Metaverse after we see the capture unfold; it was clear he had been brought back into the real world to me.

Goro is brought into the Metaverse by Futaba activating the app on the phone when he passes Sae in the hall.

See, it was clear to me that he had never left the Metaverse. I ended up being wrong about never left, but right that the police station would be the used as the metaverse in the end.

First dungeon. Ann enters in the Metaverse from the first time and meet Ryuji, Morgana and you at the entrance.

They decide to force her to leave the Metaverse and Ryuji basically asks: we should cross the same spot where we came in to leave, right?

The real police only saw the back alley though, which looked mostly normal.

And the series is known for having Bad Endings. Persona 4 is infamous because of how easy it was to fail in a couple of specific scenes and trigger one of those.

That's not clear enough to me, though. Where is that spot? They were lost as fuck getting to the first dungeon - which was vague in and of itself, and another part I disliked. How could they get so disoriented as to not understand immediately that something weird had changed? Sure Ryuji knows exactly where his school is? And there are so many times when they're in public and enter the metaverse and it's like 'Did they just disppear? Did anyone see that? Is that exact spot where they need to stand to exit?' It's wooly to me. It's vague.

Huh. I never even considered that I had gotten a bad ending, because my answers to Sae's questions were so obviously correct. 'Protect your friends' will always be the answer in a game like this.

 

[PK Gaming]

And I was fine with that! But when the twist revolved entirely around Goro brining police into the Metaverse without them realising it (uh, Casino... hello?), then exiting the Metaverse, then entering the Metaverse without realising it due to Futaba's planted app... it was all so damn wooly, vague. This only got worse at the end of the game when mementos fuses with the world and all kinds of nonsense reasons are thrown out for people not seeing the effects save for Joker's friends. I don't know, it didn't engage me at all, and I felt like the entire plot was operating purely on 'the rule of cool' at that point, rather than anything coherent or meaningful.

???

Which are app are you talking about? The app she planted onto Goro's phone let her listen in on his conversations.

EDIT: Oh, you meant Joker's phone.

 

[Guess Who]

Goro is brought into the Metaverse by Futaba activating the app on the phone when he passes Sae in the hall.

See, it was clear to me that he had never left the Metaverse. I ended up being wrong about never left, but right that the police station would be the used as the metaverse in the end.

Goro goes into the Metaverse, but Joker's interrogation happens entirely in the real world. The police beating and drugging, for instance, was the real world.

Only the gunshot is in the Metaverse, and that isn't "real Joker but in the Metaverse", that's "Sae Niijima's perceived Cognitive Joker".

 

[Griss]

Goro goes into the Metaverse, but Joker's interrogation happens entirely in the real world. The police beating and drugging, for instance, was the real world.

Only the gunshot is in the Metaverse, and that isn't "real Joker but in the Metaverse", that's "Sae Niijima's perceived Cognitive Joker".

Yes, I understood all of this once they plot dumped it, but my point here is merely that the twist was lost on me because I believed they were in the Metaverse the whole time. My surprise came when I learned that the interrogation had been in the real world - that was the surprise to me.

The Metaverse isn't known to the general public, but it IS known to Shido, Akechi, and those in power due to Wakaba's research. Presumably they briefed a special segment of the police force to help them out.

Can't accept this. The entire police force of Tokyo appeared to be there. The social media stories of all the police who'd entered the metaverse would have been everywhere the next day. I was honestly expecting the game to deal with this.

 

[RalchAC]

Despite the game being beginner friendly in a lot of senses, I think the twists in the game work much better with people that have played previous entries, since they have preestablished expectations. The game plays a lot with stuff from previous entries to troll the audience. Both the November twists resembling a bad ending and fake Igor are excellent because they play with your previous knowledge about the series.

Yes, I understood all of this once they plot dumped it, but my point here is merely that the twist was lost on me because I believed they were in the Metaverse the whole time. My surprise came when I learned that the interrogation had been in the real world - that was the surprise to me.

If they were in the Metaverse Sae wouldn't have got a phone call.

 

[BLCKATK]

Also, they should have had Goro shoot someone else other than MC. There was no tension to that as we know it's not the kind of game where the MC can die. Had he shot Makoto or something, you'd be thinking 'Hmm... maybe...'

I just want to mainly touch on my own reaction to that scene. Since I did not know the endings prior to playing the game or how/when the bad end would trigger, my first thought initially was that I got the bad ending and I needed to do something different.

The twist played me quite well and I had already had the thought that the protagonist might be being interrogated in the metaverse (not exactly how it played out but you get what I mean).

 

[Weiss]

Stop explaining your character development, dammit. This whole part feels almost amateurish.

Also Goro reminds me of a worse version of

Spoiler

Jun

. Foil to the protagonist, unwilling pawn in a game between two deities,

Spoiler

massive amount of homoeroticism,

daddy issues. Granted their characters are fundamentally different, but the groundwork feels the same.

The game's writing took a nosedive at the end of palace 6, starting with the party suddenly learning how to play 4d chess.

Yeah Goro's little internal monologue screams of being shoehorned in. It should have happened during his stint with the team, or in one of his Confidant scenes.

I'm down with the party being the manipulative schemers this time, though. I hate it in JRPGs where the characters have to fall for obvious traps to get through the plot, so I loved it that the protagonist was in legitimate danger and had to outsmart his opponent.

 

[Unknown One]

What is the best armor for girls? Doesn't seem like they have a transmogrifying armor that is similar to guys.

 

[Griss]

Speaking of 'bad ends', does Persona 5 actually have any? Or any secret endings, I suppose.

Yeah Goro's little internal monologue screams of being shoehorned in. It should have happened during his stint with the team, or in one of his Confidant scenes.

I'm down with the party being the manipulative schemers this time, though. I hate it in JRPGs where the characters have to fall for obvious traps to get through the plot, so I loved it that the protagonist was in legitimate danger and had to outsmart his opponent.

I loved the idea of it, just not the way it was presented as a long-winded plot dump after the fact.

But you're there playing and you're like 'Come on, Joker, you know this dude's no good, what the hell is the matter with you, so many tells and giveaways...' And then to find out that he was on the same page as you all along was certainly unexpected and satisfying - made him seem like the competent leader he was supposed to be. Made it seem like he and Morgana were actually paying attention like the player is.

 

[chrominance]

Goro goes into the Metaverse, but Joker's interrogation happens entirely in the real world. The police beating and drugging, for instance, was the real world.

Only the gunshot is in the Metaverse, and that isn't "real Joker but in the Metaverse", that's "Sae Niijima's perceived Cognitive Joker".

This one was actually pretty difficult for me to wrap my head around for the longest time: namely, how did the team know there would be a cognitive version of Joker to kill in the first place? I actually don't think they ever explicitly explain this one; eventually I settled on the idea (or maybe someone on GAF mentioned this as the explanation) that Sae talking to him in that interrogation room the whole time is what creates the cognitive version.

Other questions: so did they end up stealing Sae's treasure? Do we simply not care anymore because the MC's effected a change of heart without having to bother with the palace? Does that mean she would still have a palace now if not for the metaverse's destruction?

But yeah. I like the shock value of being like "he's dead, but this doesn't seem like the bad ending, what's the way out," but it ends up feeling less like a really good heist explanation (aka the best parts of heist movies!) and more like a bunch of people talking about an inside joke you're only dimly aware of. Also, like the best heist movies, some improvisation and plan-gone-awry would also help sell the credibility of the whole sequence, because as it is everyone's like "yes the plan went 100% exactly as planned!" and there are just so many ways it could've gone wrong that it seems implausible on its face.

 

[RalchAC]

This one was actually pretty difficult for me to wrap my head around for the longest time: namely, how did the team know there would be a cognitive version of Joker to kill in the first place? I actually don't think they ever explicitly explain this one; eventually I settled on the idea (or maybe someone on GAF mentioned this as the explanation) that Sae talking to him in that interrogation room the whole time is what creates the cognitive version.

Other questions: so did they end up stealing Sae's treasure? Do we simply not care anymore because the MC's effected a change of heart without having to bother with the palace? Does that mean she would still have a palace now if not for the metaverse's destruction?

But yeah. I like the shock value of being like "he's dead, but this doesn't seem like the bad ending, what's the way out," but it ends up feeling less like a really good heist explanation (aka the best parts of heist movies!) and more like a bunch of people talking about an inside joke you're only dimly aware of. Also, like the best heist movies, some improvisation and plan-gone-awry would also help sell the credibility of the whole sequence, because as it is everyone's like "yes the plan went 100% exactly as planned!" and there are just so many ways it could've gone wrong that it seems implausible on its face.

As long as Sae thinks the MC is inside the Interrogation Room, he'll be. They're inside her castle, which wasn't destroyed because they didn't stole the Treasure. The MC suitcase was empty.

 

[Guess Who]

This one was actually pretty difficult for me to wrap my head around for the longest time: namely, how did the team know there would be a cognitive version of Joker to kill in the first place? I actually don't think they ever explicitly explain this one; eventually I settled on the idea (or maybe someone on GAF mentioned this as the explanation) that Sae talking to him in that interrogation room the whole time is what creates the cognitive version.

The cognitive world is based on how the Palace owner sees the real world. Sae Niijima believes Joker is in the interrogation room in the real world, therefore he is in the interrogation room in her cognitive world too.

Other questions: so did they end up stealing Sae's treasure? Do we simply not care anymore because the MC's effected a change of heart without having to bother with the palace? Does that mean she would still have a palace now if not for the metaverse's destruction?

They explicitly say the "treasure" they stole from Sae's palace was a fake they prepared to fool Akechi. They never actually stole her Treasure, and it was Joker explaining his situation to Sae in the interrogation that instead changed her heart. Palaces are created by distorted desire, so presumably she stopped having a Palace of her own accord.

 

[PK Gaming]

This one was actually pretty difficult for me to wrap my head around for the longest time: namely, how did the team know there would be a cognitive version of Joker to kill in the first place? I actually don't think they ever explicitly explain this one; eventually I settled on the idea (or maybe someone on GAF mentioned this as the explanation) that Sae talking to him in that interrogation room the whole time is what creates the cognitive version.

Other questions: so did they end up stealing Sae's treasure? Do we simply not care anymore because the MC's effected a change of heart without having to bother with the palace? Does that mean she would still have a palace now if not for the metaverse's destruction?

But yeah. I like the shock value of being like "he's dead, but this doesn't seem like the bad ending, what's the way out," but it ends up feeling less like a really good heist explanation (aka the best parts of heist movies!) and more like a bunch of people talking about an inside joke you're only dimly aware of. Also, like the best heist movies, some improvisation and plan-gone-awry would also help sell the credibility of the whole sequence, because as it is everyone's like "yes the plan went 100% exactly as planned!" and there are just so many ways it could've gone wrong that it seems implausible on its face.

There actually was some improvisation, but it happened offscreen. Futaba mentions they had to tie up cognitive!Akechi, because if the real one saw his cognitive double he'd know what was up. Would have been great if we got to see that play out in another anime cutscene.

 

[RalchAC]

The cognitive world is based on how the Palace owner sees the real world. Sae Niijima believes Joker is in the interrogation room in the real world, therefore he is in the interrogation room in her cognitive world too.

They explicitly say the "treasure" they stole from Sae's palace was a fake to fool Akechi. They never actually stole her Treasure, and it was Joker explaining his situation to Sae in the interrogation that instead changed her heart. Palaces are created by distorted desire, so presumably she stopped having a Palace of her own accord.

If you notice, when you reach the Treasure they see it seems to be a book. After defeating the boss, only 2 people (Ryuji and Yusuke?) go to the treasure and come back with the suitcase. Then during the escape you don't see the Palace trembling like every other time they steal somebody's Treasure.

Edit: Oops. When I saw the spoiler tags I thought you were asking a question, not answering it

 

[Taruranto]

Yeah Goro's little internal monologue screams of being shoehorned in. It should have happened during his stint with the team, or in one of his Confidant scenes.

I'm down with the party being the manipulative schemers this time, though. I hate it in JRPGs where the characters have to fall for obvious traps to get through the plot, so I loved it that the protagonist was in legitimate danger and had to outsmart his opponent.

Goro's S.Link feels like a missed opportunity to me, he should have gotten more meaty scenes with Joker in which you get to know him better, instead they are mostly random encounters with little substances.

Rank 9 and 10 Rank Ups were so damn awkward lol.

 

[bluethree]

I used a guide for the right answers and I was STILL convinced that I somehow fucked things up and got the bad ending. I actually restarted things a few times before I realized what was going on, lol.

 

[chrominance]

There actually was some improvisation, but it happened offscreen. Futaba mentions they had to tie up cognitive!Akechi, because if the real one saw his cognitive double he'd know what was up. Would have been great if we got to see that play out in another anime cutscene.

It definitely would've helped to actually see this, I think, along with some explanation in that specific scene. There's that one in-game cutscene where you see Makoto and Yusuke in the palace version of the interrogation room and they kind of talk for a bit, but I didn't really understand what that was about until later.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Speaking of 'bad ends', does Persona 5 actually have any? Or any secret endings, I suppose.

Several. Unique ones if you get hit the deadline for the palaces, the protagonist getting shot in the head for real if you say the wrong things to Sae, accepting Yaldabaoth's deal so the Phantom Thieves live on in perpetuity...

 

[Weiss]

Getting shot by Goro definitely pales in comparison to the amazing bad ending in Persona 4, but excepting Yaldabaoth's deal was great.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

Seemed obvious to me that Joker had to be interrogated in the real world because he had his normal clothes on.

This was actually something I was hoping to have explained right from the beginning, because I noticed before the game even came out that he gets caught in costume but mugshotted and interrogated in uniform, meaning whoever was holding him would have seen the switch and how supernatural it is. Glad it was indirectly addressed.

 

[ShironRedshift]

And I was fine with that! But when the twist revolved entirely around Goro brining police into the Metaverse without them realising it (uh, Casino... hello?), then exiting the Metaverse, then entering the Metaverse without realising it due to Futaba's planted app... it was all so damn wooly, vague. This only got worse at the end of the game when mementos fuses with the world and all kinds of nonsense reasons are thrown out for people not seeing the effects save for Joker's friends. I don't know, it didn't engage me at all, and I felt like the entire plot was operating purely on 'the rule of cool' at that point, rather than anything coherent or meaningful.

Speaking of which, once you get to Mementos Depths, all the rules for how stealing Treasures/changes of heart are supposed to work are basically thrown completely out the window in favor of "rule of cool" stuff and the last few twists, unless I missed something.

Like, once you get to the end of the Depths, Morgana implies that Mementos' Treasure is indeed in the room, guarded by the Holy Grail/Yaldabaoth. But like... how? The whole plot twists both before/afterword was basically that Yaldabaoth was cheating the rules of his little game by using his powers to influence Mementos such that the public progressively ignored and forgot about the Phantom Thieves more and more. When the Phantom Thieves not only didn't send out any type of actual calling card, in contrast to all the other treasures, but the public was actively ignoring/forgetting about the Phantom Thieves, how would the Treasure of Mementos--the Public's Palace--be there at all in an obtainable form?

That should have been a completely unwinnable game for the Phantom Thieves. Due to Yaldabaoth influencing Mementos, the public weren't every aware they were doing anything. And with that kind of influence, just like with taking down Shido, even if they had hijacked the airwaves and whatever and had released another "calling card" that way, the public would have just ignored it and it wouldn't have worked. But for the sake of rule of cool and the protagonists being able to win and stuff, all that's ignored and they do end up being able to snag the thing just fine (when Joker and Satanael defeat Yaldabaoth you seem him grab the Treasure in the form of the Holy Grail before things start falling apart).

And speaking of the final "phase" of the Yaldaboth fight (where you just blast him with Satanael), the lead up to that is kind of weird. Because like... the whole point of the lead-up to that is, again for the sake of rule of cool, your confidants and friends manage the public free of the grasp that Yaldabaoth/Mementos has on them and they start cheering you on, which gives you the power you need to take him down. But like... if we were able to convince them, then what was the point of stealing Mementos' Treasure exactly? If we were able to convince them without that, doesn't that render the act of actually stealing the Treasure redundant, and shouldn't such a change of cognition resulted in a huge change in the Mementos/real world fusion regardless? It's just kind of really bizarre and just throws a lot of stuff out of the window just for the sake of a lot of awesome stuff happening at once, unless I missed something.

Just feels like it would have been better if they had just kinda dropped the whole Treasure thing at that point if anything and just focused purely on the Yaldabaoth twists, because keeping it and giving Mementos itself a Treasure just makes the whole thing murkier for no real benefit.


On a slightly different note, am I the only one that kinda just... didn't really care for the Igor twist at all? I mean, sure it's all WTF is going at first, but once I got over the surprise it just didn't really do anything for me. Because like, for the sake of the twist, and to make sure people don't really suspect much, during the time where he's pretending to be Igor Yaldabaoth doesn't really do much that Igor wouldn't have done regardless. Other than changing a few lines slightly, and of course the twins being Lavenza the whole time instead of Caroline/Justine, if it were the real Igor the whole time helping you out to prepare you for your eventual bout with Yaldabaoth, things would have proceeded pretty much the exact same way.

And that's just compounded by the fact that in the brief time you interact with the real Igor he doesn't do terribly much to distinguish himself from Yaldabaoth!Igor in any way. Like, they don't even transform the Velvet room or anything, if it's appearance as a prison was kinda more due to Yaldabaoth's meddling than anything as was kinda implied by the ending if I was understanding it right. It all just stays the same and doesn't make much of a difference either way, which just makes me feel like the whole thing was a twist just for the sake of having one last "OMGWFTBBQ WFT is going on???!!!" twist at the end. Which, to be fair, it definitely got me at first! I can't deny that. But just having had some time to think and reflect on it, I'm not sure if I really care for it after all since it just doesn't seem to matter at all and the game could have pretty much preceded the same way had Yaldabaoth not done that at all. I dunno.

The one exception is I guess Morgana, who is explained as being created by Igor kind of as a last resort as he was being captured to help out the Phantom Thieves, but even that could have just been something he did regardless to help them out had he not be captured. So yeah... I dunno.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

On a slightly different note, am I the only one that kinda just... didn't really care for the Igor twist at all?

You're literally the only person I've seen who didn't like it, yes. Have you only played Persona 5, or have you also played previous Persona games?

The twist is FAR from being a twist just for the sake of it. It's set up right when you meet him, and there are tons of things that are off about this Velvet Room, which culminate to the reveal. It was amazingly done, especially for people who are familiar with the series and the circumstances of the Japanese voice actor, and how that manifested itself in titles following his death.

 

[ShironRedshift]

Seemed obvious to me that Joker had to be interrogated in the real world because he had his normal clothes on.

This was actually something I was hoping to have explained right from the beginning, because I noticed before the game even came out that he gets caught in costume but mugshotted and interrogated in uniform, meaning whoever was holding him would have seen the switch and how supernatural it is. Glad it was indirectly addressed.

Eh, that by itself doesn't really mean anything though because in the next Palace the game makes none of that really matter anyway. Remember, there's the segment before the Shido fight where Joker removes his mask to show Shadow Shido his real identity, implying that they can change clothes and stuff even within the Metaverse. And of course that was confirmed earlier in the same Palace where Ryuji convinced the girls to switch into swimsuits to try and get a letter of recommendation from the pervert dude on the ship's deck. So yeah, what clothes Joker was wearing doesn't seem to really mean much of anything either way since if the girls were able to switch into swimsuits then there's really no reason that they couldn't switch back into their normal clothes in the Metaverse if they really wanted to and just like, brought an extra pair of those clothes with them or something I guess.

 

[CrimsonFist]

Eh, that by itself doesn't really mean anything though because in the next Palace the game makes none of that really matter anyway. Remember, there's the segment before the Shido fight where Joker removes his mask to show Shadow Shido his real identity, implying that they can change clothes and stuff even within the Metaverse. And of course that was confirmed earlier in the same Palace where Ryuji convinced the girls to switch into swimsuits to try and get a letter of recommendation from the pervert due on the ship's deck. So yeah, what clothes Joker was wearing doesn't seem to really mean much of anything either way since if the girls were able to switch into swimsuits then there's really no reason that they couldn't switch back into their normal clothes in the Metaverse if they really wanted to and just like, brought an extra pair of those clothes with them or something I guess.

The swimsuit thing is actually a bit odd, because as part of the trap, they verify that they will only appear in thief outfits in the casino, and not in the surrounding metaverse. which would imply that they can't normally change. Being able to remove masks is pretty consistent though.

Or actually that would just have been so that they knew Akechi wouldn't change when they tricked him into it, which would have given the whole thing away, so maybe not.

 

[ShironRedshift]

You're literally the only person I've seen who didn't like it, yes. Have you only played Persona 5, or have you also played previous Persona games?

The twist is FAR from being a twist just for the sake of it. It's set up right when you meet him, and there are tons of things that are off about this Velvet Room, which culminate to the reveal. It was amazingly done, especially for people who are familiar with the series and the circumstances of the Japanese voice actor, and how that manifested itself in titles following his death.

I'm familiar with both the circumstances of the prior Japanese VA's death and am quite familiar with P4G (though not so much any of the other Persona games beyond bits and pieces here and there). I just don't see how any of that addressed anything I said. Yeah, I understand that it's basically all happened because of the Japanese VA's death and was a creative way of working around it and working with the very limited lines they had for him, creatively making the best of a very bad situation.

But judging the twist itself on its own merits, I just don't really care for it because it could easily be removed and everything could pretty much proceed the same way had they decided not to have the twist and just decided to start over and completely rely on the new VA instead. I get why they didn't do that and wanted to use the lines they had already recorded and be respectful, but I dunno. It just relies too much on what occurred with the VA in the real world, but with the way they justified it just within the game itself, it felt like it could have been just proceeded the same way regardless. Maybe I'm not really explaining myself well, but I'm not really sure how I could do it better. But yeah, I completely get why they did it and it's a good way of handling that situation, but just within the game itself it still just comes off as feeling kinda improvised and definitely not whatever the original plan was (since of course it wasn't), and that kinda thing just sticks out to me and leaves me not sure how I really feel about it at this point, if that makes any sense at all.

But maybe I'm missing something from the start of the game that really, really sets the tone for this and makes it worth it? I mean, that was like a few weeks real time and like 130 hours in-game time so I've kinda forgotten the stuff that was supposed to be off at the start this point and foreshadow that something was off. Guess I might need to start up a NG+ at the moment and check that out again, but I'm kinda just burnt after at the moment after Yakuza 0, Nier Automata, Breath of the Wild, and Persona 5 all pretty much hit back-to-back-t-back and just need a break before starting that up, so it can wait guess. xD

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

Forgot about being able to switch into the swimsuits. That does make that murkier.

As for not needing a calling card for the Mementos treasure, it was implied that whatever was down there wasn't a normal treasure as such but rather the source of the whole Metaverse (and therefore it seems logical that it wouldn't be an intangible cognition but an actual thing you could mess with). I think it works.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

*snip*

No, you're misunderstanding what I meant. In short, when Igor's Japanese VA died, Atlus showed a reluctance to replace him, and they reused previous lines of his in new projects. This is part of why everyone freaked out when they saw him in trailer PV01, because it was still up in the air if Igor was really going to be returning for P5 after all this.

So when his new voice was heard, the vast majority of the fans who knew about this situation then presumed that it was Atlus finally moving on with the character, and intentionally giving him a distinctive new voice instead of trying to mimic the old one. No one thought anything past that.

So when the fact that there WAS a reason for the change in voice happened, that took everyone by surprise, because it's not something they had been actively thinking about. This was set up from the very first voice you hear when starting the game.

1. There are twin Velvet Room attendants for a single host instead of one.
2. Igor doesn't fuse himself, the attendants do it.
3. Fusing is done in a very vicious way that is not the same as how the previous games were.
4. The Velvet Room host does not sign a contract or receive a key when entering this Velvet Room, a crucial element.
5. Neither of the attendants have a grimoire.
6. Instead of being a welcoming environment where the host's path appears open, this one is an oppressive one where his fate seems sealed.
7. Fake Igor saying "Welcome to MY Velvet Room" instead of "Welcome to the Velvet Room."

Etc.

All of these reasons are why this twist cannot just be said to be tacked on. It fits into the core of Persona 5's theme, as well as the motivations of the final boss. The spirit of rebellion extends towards the one thing in the series you wouldn't think you'd be rebelling against. This is why I say that those who have played previous titles in the Persona series, and have inevitably spent tons of time inside the Velvet Room and with Igor, would be particularly affected by this twist instead of those who have only played Persona 5.

 

[Guess Who]

The game explicitly says that Yaldabaoth/The Holy Grail is itself the Treasure of Mementos, but that mankind's desires became so incredibly distorted and powerful that it became god-like in an attempt to grant mankind's desires. One important thing to remember about Yaldabaoth/Izanami/Nyarlathotep/etc. is that they aren't gods per se - they're basically hella powerful Shadows, formed from mankind's unconscious.

Also, the way Yaldabaoth manipulated the game is not by manipulating Mementos so that people stopped caring about the Phantom Thieves. That particular part happened on its own. The "rigging" was Yaldabaoth hijacking the Velvet Room, so that when Joker ultimately needed the Velvet Room's help to overcome Yaldabaoth, it wouldn't be there and he could instead have the twins murder Joker.

 

[ShironRedshift]

No, you're misunderstanding what I meant. In short, when Igor's Japanese VA died, Atlus showed a reluctance to replace him, and they reused previous lines of his in new projects. This is part of why everyone freaked out when they saw him in trailer PV01, because it was still up in the air if Igor was really going to be returning for P5 after all this.

So when his new voice was heard, the vast majority of the fans who knew about this situation then presumed that it was Atlus finally moving on with the character, and intentionally giving him a distinctive new voice instead of trying to mimic the old one. No one thought anything past that.

So when the fact that there WAS a reason for the change in voice happened, that took everyone by surprise, because it's not something they had been actively thinking about. This was set up from the very first voice you hear when starting the game.

1. There are twin Velvet Room attendants for a single host instead of one.
2. Igor doesn't fuse himself, the attendants do it.
3. Fusing is done in a very vicious way that is not the same as how the previous games were.
4. The Velvet Room host does not sign a contract or receive a key when entering this Velvet Room, a crucial element.
5. Neither of the attendants have a grimoire.
6. Instead of being a welcoming environment where the host's path appears open, this one is an oppressive one where his fate seems sealed.
7. Fake Igor saying "Welcome to MY Velvet Room" instead of "Welcome to the Velvet Room."

Etc.

All of these reasons are why this twist cannot just be said to be tacked on. It fits into the core of Persona 5's theme, as well as the motivations of the final boss. The spirit of rebellion extends towards the one thing in the series you wouldn't think you'd be rebelling against. This is why I say that those who have played previous titles in the Persona series, and have inevitably spent tons of time inside the Velvet Room and with Igor, would be particularly affected by this twist instead of those who have only played Persona 5.

Ah, I see. Only having one prior reference point with Persona 4 Golden, I didn't know much much of that stuff was actually series norms for the player's relationship with Igor and what wasn't, so I was just more willing to think that a lot of that more just had to do with the themes of the game than being anything particularly abnormal for Igor. That makes a lot more sense. Like, for example, I remember forming a contract with Igor in 4, but I didn't know if that was a normal thing or just how Persona 4 did it so stuff like that being absent didn't bother me. Although, it definitely was odd that Igor didn't fuse anything himself, but having just played Golden before I didn't know if this was something that they just went back and forth on or what, so while it did seem a bit odd to be based on Golden i more just chalked it up to something like that and didn't dwell on it too much.

And just on the point of twins, not having played P3P personally at all (due to what I've heard about stuff like the Tartarus just making it sound like not my kinda game really) I just remembered something about that game having two Velvet Room attendants, so the fact that this game had two never really stood out to me at all. But looking it up right now, it seems that whether Theodore or Elizabeth is the Velvet Room attendant in P3P is just a choice you make if you play as FemMC, right? I didn't know that until just now and just from what I heard when they briefly get mentioned in conversations about Persona 4 figured they were both just hanging out in there regardless for some reason since all I basically knew about them was just that they both existed. So yeah, because of that misconception the fact that this game had twin attendants didn't really ever stand out at all me by itself.

But in any case, that all makes a lot more sense to me now, so thanks for that! ^__^

 

[Shouta]

What really bothered me about it was that the 'twist' relied on the one thing I thought the game was absolutely terrible at explaining - how entering / exiting the metaverse actually worked. Where the border between the real world and the metaverse started, and how the process of crossing it worked. In P4, for example, you jump into a TV. Clear barrier.

In P5, you press the Nav, and the game screen goes wonky with red circles. You're now in the Metaverse. But did other people see you disappear? And does the metaverse stretch forever in all directions? How can it be that you can't tell whether you're in it or not? How can cognitions know things that only the actual character would know? And so on and so forth... it was very 'wooly' logic.

The game doesn't explain it explicitly but most of the mechanics behind it are there for the player to figure out. Here's how I think it goes based off what we know

First and most important part is that the app is absolutely necessary as it provides the tool to navigate the boundary between realities. The second part is that for users to enter the metaverse palaces, they have to be aware of the key words for that palace. This is demonstrated by the time that Ann got teleported in with Ryuji and Joker but no one else walking by the alleyway was. She was listening in on the conversation and was in the range of the app to be taken in with them.

As for disappearing, the assumption is that yes people can see you doing that. As the photo that gets produced after Haru's dungeon shows, they appear out of thin air when exiting the dungeon so it's likely the same thing that occurs when they enter it.

But I was under the impression that the general public / police / everyone had no idea about the metaverse, and that there was general skepticism about the phantom thieves' methods. I thought it was only Shido and his 'elite' connections who had that info.

So the presence of the metaverse was just a known thing and the police just entered it? Huh, alright then. That certainly passed me by. Confused the fuck out of me to be honest, how he got the police in there without that being a huge deal.

I don't think the police knew the exact details just that there was some mysterious method for how the Phantom Thieves did things.

As for the ambush at Sae's palace. Only a handful of elite agents were sent inside to flush Joker and the others out. All the other officers were outside. If Akechi had set it up properly, none of the normal cops would have been aware of the casino inside as it looks like they were lying in wait on the outside of the building. Akechi could have easily just explained what was going to happen too and they accepted it.

The other thing that might be a possibility is that they were waiting for Joker to exit the metaverse right at that spot and grabbed him as he came out. As such, the regular cops wouldn't be aware but the elites would be. Joker's outfit hadn't dissolved yet but did after he they took him into custody so there's a transition to the real world at some point between getting caught and the mug shots. The question is when though.

Speaking of which, once you get to Mementos Depths, all the rules for how stealing Treasures/changes of heart are supposed to work are basically thrown completely out the window in favor of "rule of cool" stuff and the last few twists, unless I missed something.

Yaldabaoth IS Memento's treasure. Why do you think it took the form of a grail? Not just any grail but the holy grail! It was protected by archangels too.

Satanael shooting Yaldabaoth caused just the treasure to appear afterwards but then the entire thing starts recreating itself afterwards to free the people, probably because it was more or less destroyed .

Eh, that by itself doesn't really mean anything though because in the next Palace the game makes none of that really matter anyway. Remember, there's the segment before the Shido fight where Joker removes his mask to show Shadow Shido his real identity, implying that they can change clothes and stuff even within the Metaverse. And of course that was confirmed earlier in the same Palace where Ryuji convinced the girls to switch into swimsuits to try and get a letter of recommendation from the pervert dude on the ship's deck. So yeah, what clothes Joker was wearing doesn't seem to really mean much of anything either way since if the girls were able to switch into swimsuits then there's really no reason that they couldn't switch back into their normal clothes in the Metaverse if they really wanted to and just like, brought an extra pair of those clothes with them or something I guess.

Joker wouldn't have been able to change between the end of the dungeon and the mug shot because he got knocked out, lol.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

its funny that the game exercises a proper amount of restraint on explaining somethings, but then goes brutally overboard with things like Akechi's motives

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Goro could have been a decent villain had they not try to shoehorn the whole "he's really just a good guy with bad circumstances" after causing more than half the murders and problems of the game's story. I was shaking my head after they suggested letting him join the party.

They should have treated him like they did Kamoshida and not try to half ass a redemption arc at the last second.

 

[MetalGearOnlineK]

I'm against the Holy Grail now and he just healed himself and now he's talking. Assuming none of the bosses give me trouble, how many hours would you say until I'm done? Wondering if I can finish tonight.