ErzaScarlet77
Neo Member
do those bad endings that show up when you fail a palace actually happen?
(makoto enslaved, futaba suicide)
(makoto enslaved, futaba suicide)
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[SPOILERS] Persona 5 Spoiler Thread | Steal your heart; steel yourself
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ShadowSoldier89
Member
Mashing that screenshot key on NG+
EDIT: also full answer from when we were discussing Futaba's father
EDIT: also full answer from when we were discussing Futaba's father
Probably like an hour left
Best scene in the game lol. This what probably what cemented #TeamMakoto for me.
Young Magus
Junior Member
Yep,
Mishima may be the dweebest dweeb that even dweebed but he was THE bro of p5.
The scene of him tryin to get sigs in the epilogue was golden:
He......He's my best friend
I'm trying to write up as much of an explanation about the last act of the game as I can think of, both to try and clear things up for others and to wrap my own head around it.
The whole last third or so of the game is basically a left-wing Japanese political allegory. Hell, arguably the biggest bit of foreshadowing of this in the game is that one of your social links is Anime Bernie Sanders. Shido's relevance to this allegory is obvious, as a nationalist and populist right-winger promising to #MakeJapanGreatAgain. His whole story is a pretty direct jab at political corruption in Japan, and more broadly, the dangerous rise of ”populism" around the world.
Everyone loves Shido because he says he's gonna fix everything and make Japan the strongest, most beautiful country in the world! He's also a rapist and a murderer who's really only interested in himself, but he sure knows how to speak to a crowd. The whole metaphor of a cruise ship of the wealthy and elite floating carelessly over the sunken ruins of the rest of the country is both extremely on the nose and extremely apt for what's been going on in the world lately.
But of course, taking down Shido doesn't even really solve the problem. The people around him are corrupt, too! And they know how to play the media to downplay his confession and discredit the Phantom Thieves, how to control the narrative to make him look like a martyr, and how to push their agenda through anyway. Boy, that hits a little close to home, doesn't it? Anyway, time to go change the heart of society itself, because a full-on democratic revolution is gonna be the only way to change this.
So, the Prison of Regression at the bottom of Mementos. The metaphor is also fairly direct. Society is afraid of change. The prisoners - us! the people of society! - allow themselves to remain "captive" because they believe that they will get what they want in life as long as they keep their heads down and don't try to challenge the status quo. Change is scary. The status quo is comfortable. Why bother going against the System, dude? The System always wins anyway.
The Holy Grail is that status quo. The grail of legend is claimed to grant you immortality, or to heal all your wounds, or any number of miraculous things if you are to drink from it - fitting with that previous metaphor of people putting up with the status quo to get what they want out of their lives. However, the Grail is also sucking the life force out of all the prisoners. The status quo survives both off of our complacency - our willingness to let ourselves stay prisoner - and off draining us so dry we don't have the energy to fight back. It's hard to find the time or effort to fight the power when you're barely making it by flipping patties at Big Bang Burger, folks.
The game says that Yaldabaoth/The Holy Grail (they are the same being) is the Treasure of Mementos, and that it used to be just that - a Treasure. But society grew more and more corrupt, and our desire for ”comfort" and ”safety" grew so distorted and fucked up that The Grail became basically a god. I think some folks, particularly those new to the series, interpret the way the game refers to Yaldabaoth as a ”god" as if it were a god as we think of them - some higher plane of existence. In Persona lore, though, they're really more like extremely powerful Shadows formed by the collective will of people. In this case, people became so dependent on the status quo that their collective wish for a world where they can just depend on the System and not think for themselves manifested into an extremely powerful Shadow, Yaldabaoth.
Yaldabaoth - unsubtle metaphor for fascism that he is - at some point decided, hey, I think humanity might just be happier if they just shut the fuck up and stopped thinking for themselves and did whatever I tell them to. After all, he was formed by the collective wish of people who'd given up on going against all the problems in the world and just wanted to leave a peaceful life under the current order. But Yaldabaoth wants to be a ”fair" god, so he goes up to Igor like, let's play a game. Let's give these two kids Personas and see what happens. Akechi will represent the current order (as he goes around murdering people in the Metaverse to help Shido and those in power), and Joker will represent the hope for people to change (as he uses his Metaverse power to help the weak and suffering).
j/k, fuck that, I'm gonna kidnap Igor and hijack the Velvet Room and have Joker murdered if he's too successful. Fascists don't actually care about playing fair, it turns out!
So, anyway, Yaldabaoth/The Grail decides to subplant the Metaverse into the real world, where Mementos and Tokyo become one. Giant ribs and bones and spines start bursting from the ground, blood starts raining from the sky, and no one even gives a fuck. I've seen multiple posts saying the game doesn't clearly explain why nobody sees what's going on at first, but it actually does, and the answer is: they do see it. It's just normal to them. Again, political allegory - the world is going to shit around us but we've gotten so used to it that we don't even react anymore.
But the Phantom Thieves and our confidants - here, standing in for those of us in the world who DO care that everything's going to hell - definitely react. People, the world is literally transforming into a nightmare hellscape all around us! Why aren't you all doing anything about it? So the Phantom Thieves set off and start killing some archangels, and slowly but surely, people take notice. Is that the Phantom Thieves fighting over there? Wait, is there blood falling from the sky? Oh shit people, are we in an apocalypse right now? As your confidants start spreading the word, and more and more people take notice of what you're doing, they start waking up to what's going on in the world. It's a metaphor for political activism (and one which the game will revisit more directly in a bit).
The battle against Yaldabaoth is a battle against the powers that be. The whole game, really, is the weak fighting against those in power, escalating from a creepy volleyball coach to the next prime minister of the country. The Yaldabaoth battle is more metaphorical. You aren't fighting an individual. You are fighting the society that allows those people to rise to power. You are fighting the system that protects them and shelters them and lets them get away with all the shit they do. And it seems unwinnable. But once you've woken up enough people, and raised enough support for your cause, and gotten the votes—
Did I mention this is all a political allegory? Because even the fucking Phansite meter is used here as a political metaphor.
Anyway, the point is, you can win against the powers that be. You can summon a ridiculously massive Satan from the sky and put a fucking bullet through the System's face. If we all get together, and make our voices heard, and cast our votes, we can stop the distortions and save the world from ruin. The game ties this whole theme together with the final story, which is getting Joker out of prison. This is where all that metaphor gets put into actual real-world action. Joker is unfairly held prisoner even though he saved the world, and even though his original probation was unjust from the start. But the Thieves and your Confidants all get together and spread the word, and with enough hard work and activism, they get Joker freed just in time for his girlfriends to murder him for cheating on them.
tl;dr the phantom thieves are all antifa SJWs trying to make the world #woke, the end
The whole last third or so of the game is basically a left-wing Japanese political allegory. Hell, arguably the biggest bit of foreshadowing of this in the game is that one of your social links is Anime Bernie Sanders. Shido's relevance to this allegory is obvious, as a nationalist and populist right-winger promising to #MakeJapanGreatAgain. His whole story is a pretty direct jab at political corruption in Japan, and more broadly, the dangerous rise of ”populism" around the world.
Everyone loves Shido because he says he's gonna fix everything and make Japan the strongest, most beautiful country in the world! He's also a rapist and a murderer who's really only interested in himself, but he sure knows how to speak to a crowd. The whole metaphor of a cruise ship of the wealthy and elite floating carelessly over the sunken ruins of the rest of the country is both extremely on the nose and extremely apt for what's been going on in the world lately.
But of course, taking down Shido doesn't even really solve the problem. The people around him are corrupt, too! And they know how to play the media to downplay his confession and discredit the Phantom Thieves, how to control the narrative to make him look like a martyr, and how to push their agenda through anyway. Boy, that hits a little close to home, doesn't it? Anyway, time to go change the heart of society itself, because a full-on democratic revolution is gonna be the only way to change this.
So, the Prison of Regression at the bottom of Mementos. The metaphor is also fairly direct. Society is afraid of change. The prisoners - us! the people of society! - allow themselves to remain "captive" because they believe that they will get what they want in life as long as they keep their heads down and don't try to challenge the status quo. Change is scary. The status quo is comfortable. Why bother going against the System, dude? The System always wins anyway.
The Holy Grail is that status quo. The grail of legend is claimed to grant you immortality, or to heal all your wounds, or any number of miraculous things if you are to drink from it - fitting with that previous metaphor of people putting up with the status quo to get what they want out of their lives. However, the Grail is also sucking the life force out of all the prisoners. The status quo survives both off of our complacency - our willingness to let ourselves stay prisoner - and off draining us so dry we don't have the energy to fight back. It's hard to find the time or effort to fight the power when you're barely making it by flipping patties at Big Bang Burger, folks.
The game says that Yaldabaoth/The Holy Grail (they are the same being) is the Treasure of Mementos, and that it used to be just that - a Treasure. But society grew more and more corrupt, and our desire for ”comfort" and ”safety" grew so distorted and fucked up that The Grail became basically a god. I think some folks, particularly those new to the series, interpret the way the game refers to Yaldabaoth as a ”god" as if it were a god as we think of them - some higher plane of existence. In Persona lore, though, they're really more like extremely powerful Shadows formed by the collective will of people. In this case, people became so dependent on the status quo that their collective wish for a world where they can just depend on the System and not think for themselves manifested into an extremely powerful Shadow, Yaldabaoth.
Yaldabaoth - unsubtle metaphor for fascism that he is - at some point decided, hey, I think humanity might just be happier if they just shut the fuck up and stopped thinking for themselves and did whatever I tell them to. After all, he was formed by the collective wish of people who'd given up on going against all the problems in the world and just wanted to leave a peaceful life under the current order. But Yaldabaoth wants to be a ”fair" god, so he goes up to Igor like, let's play a game. Let's give these two kids Personas and see what happens. Akechi will represent the current order (as he goes around murdering people in the Metaverse to help Shido and those in power), and Joker will represent the hope for people to change (as he uses his Metaverse power to help the weak and suffering).
j/k, fuck that, I'm gonna kidnap Igor and hijack the Velvet Room and have Joker murdered if he's too successful. Fascists don't actually care about playing fair, it turns out!
So, anyway, Yaldabaoth/The Grail decides to subplant the Metaverse into the real world, where Mementos and Tokyo become one. Giant ribs and bones and spines start bursting from the ground, blood starts raining from the sky, and no one even gives a fuck. I've seen multiple posts saying the game doesn't clearly explain why nobody sees what's going on at first, but it actually does, and the answer is: they do see it. It's just normal to them. Again, political allegory - the world is going to shit around us but we've gotten so used to it that we don't even react anymore.
But the Phantom Thieves and our confidants - here, standing in for those of us in the world who DO care that everything's going to hell - definitely react. People, the world is literally transforming into a nightmare hellscape all around us! Why aren't you all doing anything about it? So the Phantom Thieves set off and start killing some archangels, and slowly but surely, people take notice. Is that the Phantom Thieves fighting over there? Wait, is there blood falling from the sky? Oh shit people, are we in an apocalypse right now? As your confidants start spreading the word, and more and more people take notice of what you're doing, they start waking up to what's going on in the world. It's a metaphor for political activism (and one which the game will revisit more directly in a bit).
The battle against Yaldabaoth is a battle against the powers that be. The whole game, really, is the weak fighting against those in power, escalating from a creepy volleyball coach to the next prime minister of the country. The Yaldabaoth battle is more metaphorical. You aren't fighting an individual. You are fighting the society that allows those people to rise to power. You are fighting the system that protects them and shelters them and lets them get away with all the shit they do. And it seems unwinnable. But once you've woken up enough people, and raised enough support for your cause, and gotten the votes—
Did I mention this is all a political allegory? Because even the fucking Phansite meter is used here as a political metaphor.
Anyway, the point is, you can win against the powers that be. You can summon a ridiculously massive Satan from the sky and put a fucking bullet through the System's face. If we all get together, and make our voices heard, and cast our votes, we can stop the distortions and save the world from ruin. The game ties this whole theme together with the final story, which is getting Joker out of prison. This is where all that metaphor gets put into actual real-world action. Joker is unfairly held prisoner even though he saved the world, and even though his original probation was unjust from the start. But the Thieves and your Confidants all get together and spread the word, and with enough hard work and activism, they get Joker freed just in time for his girlfriends to murder him for cheating on them.
tl;dr the phantom thieves are all antifa SJWs trying to make the world #woke, the end
No, sae didn't listened to Morgana speak in metaverse so she cant hear in real world
Futaba explains this when you return from the cassino
That does bring the question of why Akechi understood him, but I guess that can be explained by the fact that he's a persona user and had much more exposure to the cognitive world.
Yeah i Was thinking that,thats the only answer for that, its bad explained indeed
Given that we know Akechi had been following the Thieves around (Shadow Madarame talked about seeing the "other" Metaverse user with the black mask, and we clearly see Akechi follow the Thieves into Okumura's palace), it's quite possible he'd heard Morgana by watching the Thieves in the Metaverse before he ran into them at the TV station.
Seconding with a 'nice write-up'.
Even if I got the political thing while playing, there's stuff I did miss and wouldn't have gone back to think on - like The Grail not actually being a god, but rather a horrendously distorted shadow, treasure.. thing.
It makes me appreciate the whole ending even more.
Even if I got the political thing while playing, there's stuff I did miss and wouldn't have gone back to think on - like The Grail not actually being a god, but rather a horrendously distorted shadow, treasure.. thing.
It makes me appreciate the whole ending even more.
ShironRedshift
Member
^I'll third that. Definitely helped clear some stuff like that up for me and it makes a whole lot more sense now, so thanks! ^__^
yeah this is why it's been throwing me off.
i've been thinking maybe he was hanging around when we were in madarame's palace? since madarame knew about the guy
... it just occurred to me that one of Futaba's voice samples is literally her saying "hey, listen!"
One thing I've seen a couple people be confused about re: Yaldy's nature is that, as the embodiment of humanity's desires, shouldn't he not want to do what he does once the people decide they want nothing to do with him?
The thing about demons and gods and Personas in SMT is that they are static beings by nature. They cannot change who they are and what they represent, because they are the embodiment of one certain idea or facet of humanity, and cannot move outside of that definition (unless they are "reborn"). In P5, Yaldabaoth is not "humanity's desires", he is specifically "humanity's desire for apathy", and can only exist within that spectrum. When people begin wishing for a "rebellion", their wishes do not change Yaldabaoth, but rather creates a new demon/Persona who can stand up to him: Satanael.
Young Magus
Junior Member
I fuckin love you.
This post needs to be archived and pinned and autoposted whenever someone says the endgame sucks
Shouta
Member
Guess Who did the long version of my posts, better to quote his, lol. But yeah, Phantom Thieves = activism
It's really amazing how Persona 5 really makes the last 3 games into a real trilogy with a very specific message that it's conveying. It actually gives a lot more focus on the things Persona 3 and Persona 4 handle too.
It's really amazing how Persona 5 really makes the last 3 games into a real trilogy with a very specific message that it's conveying. It actually gives a lot more focus on the things Persona 3 and Persona 4 handle too.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
This is an absolutely fantastic post.
Yeah. Even Yalbadoth says that's he's born from humanity's desire to have some else making decisions and stuff.
Yeah. Great write up.
Yeah, that was also how I understood everything in the end after checking all your posts out. Thank you for your posts too. That was exactly how I understood the game in the end. When you realize this the whole game has the best endgame (and imo whole story) of all three new Personas.
It's also things like foreshadowing the of the guys at the dinner that also appear in Shidos dungeon or the whole thing about Akechi and him being the opposite of the MC. Someone who didn't break out of that cycle.
I really hope that Persona 5 Crimson will add some things to clarify it for people that don't pay attention.
Yeah, that was also how I understood everything in the end after checking all your posts out. Thank you for your posts too. That was exactly how I understood the game in the end. When you realize this the whole game has the best endgame (and imo whole story) of all three new Personas.
It's also things like foreshadowing the of the guys at the dinner that also appear in Shidos dungeon or the whole thing about Akechi and him being the opposite of the MC. Someone who didn't break out of that cycle.
I really hope that Persona 5 Crimson will add some things to clarify it for people that don't pay attention.
I was really relieved when Shido is taken down and you still see opposition from his accomplices. If the game had ended after the 7th Palace I'd have been really disappointed.
The whole Shido thing was a systemic problem. Finishing the game just by taking him down would have been a disappointment.
I took my time in Mementos depths and talked to all those people in individual cells too.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
So like, what's the allegory behind people suddenly go all hunky-dory post Yaldabaoth fight? It's like everyone just completely forget it ever happened and how they panicked when they actually saw all those giant bones on the streets. It's like, everything just turned back to normal and... no one is making a fuss over those weird giant bones and people dissipating and bloody rain and all that... so weird.
Shouta
Member
There is really nothing special about it. Their subconscious has been released from Yaldabaoth's control but whether or not they wake up and realize something is/went wrong, is up to them. =P
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I am more inclined to believe that they just conveniently skip the explanation for that.
It's like the Joker invading Bruce's party in the Dark Knight, where the movie just conveniently skips what happened after Bruce jumped to save Rachel, I mean THE JOKER IS STILL UP THERE IN HIS PARTY! and yet everything just seemed hunky dory with no explanation whatsoever.
Stuff like this bugs the hell out of me.
By the time the game ends, the Phan-site survey has a 50/50 result at the question: "Do the Phantom Thieves exist?"
And the world seemed to be "rebuilt" in the animation scene when Mona disappears and tells the cast that there isn't a real world. So maybe they did a "back up copy" of sorts to a moment before Apocalypse thing.
Pick your poison.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
how the hell is repel damage calculated in this game.
Futaba's Cognitive Mom just killed herself in my NG+ game. She did her scripted dive bomb and Yoshitsune repel physical and it dealt back 3800 damage to the sphynx.
I'm sure it is in some way taking Joker's strength into account, but even so, a 200 damage move to my party dealing 3800 when repelled. I have no idea what logic that goes into that calculation is.
Futaba's Cognitive Mom just killed herself in my NG+ game. She did her scripted dive bomb and Yoshitsune repel physical and it dealt back 3800 damage to the sphynx.
I'm sure it is in some way taking Joker's strength into account, but even so, a 200 damage move to my party dealing 3800 when repelled. I have no idea what logic that goes into that calculation is.
Nocturnowl
Member
All of a sudden I like the endgame a lot more than I did when I went through it yesterday.
Great summary.
That scene was hilarious.
That particular part is definitely less "political allegory" and more "magic." To be honest, I'm not entirely sure whether people forget all that happened or not. Sae at least calls you the world's savior afterwards, but then again, she knew your plan beforehand. She might be just assuming based on the fact that you came back alive and the public seems to be acting a little differently. She also mentions that people will treat you and the Thieves as heroes, but that might be in regard to taking down Shido rather than, uh, clearing Tokyo of demons. I kind of lean towards "they don't", simply because you'd think "Tokyo temporarily covered in hellspawn for six hours" would be bigger headline news in any case.
Morgana's whole little speech is basically saying that the world is, ultimately, whatever people make it. It's not just the Metaverse that is defined by our cognitions, but everything, so if you can change the hearts and minds of people you can change the world as well. That part, at least, ties very neatly into the allegory.
If I had to tie the "everyone totally forgets and moves on" part into the political allegory, I'd probably say that the general public has a short attention span and will quickly move onto the next big issue. It's a lot easier to get the public involved when an issue is right in front of them, but once it kind of fades into the background and falls out of the press cycle, it can be a lot harder to get people motivated. It's true enough.
Seems to be strictly a Tokyo thing. They mention that the "god" was created under the city and then the palaces appeared after, iirc.
WrenchNinja
Member
I want to give you a hug for writing all this out.
mrmickfran
Member
That moment when you realize why the English dub gave Igor a deep voice thinking full well that they had no reason to do so.
I literally said "holy shit"
With a week removed from the ending it is only more apparent that P5 missed an opportunity with Igor and Morgana. Why isn't Mona the new VR master? Atlus will never get to record a new line of dialog for Igor. If they try to shoehorn him into P6 there will be so many awkward interactions with him saying a line while the attendant fills in the specifics. The game could have ended on such a nice bittersweet note with your last interaction with Morgana being in the Velvet Room he and it move on (then again I'm a sucker for FFX and xxxHolic's endings).
It was a good reveal but it would have been better if they had got the old voice actor back for the real Igor.
DrunkShogun
Member
Played like a damn fiddle. Had a mini brain meltdown thinking this isn't how it's meant to be. A well executed twist that I should have seen.
I don't like it. For every Persona that's come out since P3, this discussion has been constant. Hell, there are people who wished Sho Minazuki from P4AU would be the new Velvet Room master. I don't think this would work out.
This juncture is different with the first mainline release since his VA passed away, as well as the twist. However, I don't think the solution is simply replacing him with another known character with their own arc moving forward.
You know they can just get a new voice actor right ?
No one would say anything especially if he sounds similar, I mean people didn't say much and accepted the evil Igor voice as the new voice anyways until the reveal at the end.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
ok, lets talk about the actual what the fuck things about this game
Like, how does hanging out with Ohya give you charm
Like, how does hanging out with Ohya give you charm
I love Igor but really wouldn't mind at this point if Persona 6 is such a radical shift that we don't even have Igor anymore