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STEAM | July 2015 - Nothing To Buy With Our Arkham Knight Refunds

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Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Happy Canada Day to everyone in my neck of the woods.

I will celebrate by playing Broforce.

Here in California we're celebrating with poutine; bags of imported chips; boxes of Smarties (note to Americans: "Smarties" are like sweeter, better M&Ms not sugar tablets, get your shit together); a playlist of The New Radicals, I Mother Earth, and Stompin' Tom Connors; and a bunch of dollar store Canada Day merch that US customs opened and looked through in shipping.

Apparently they don't let you shoot off fireworks here though because I guess when people do that here the whole state catches on fire.

Hoping for a Canada Day sale on Steam.
 
Anyone who's an I Mother Earth fan is okay by me.

I'm not sure if they've ever done a Canada Day sale on Steam, but I'm tapped out after the summer sale. Just going to spend the day at my local village's parade.
 

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Yo, if Stump's poutine isn't using cheese curds then it's barely a Wednesday, let alone a Canada Day.
 

Caerith

Member
Here in California we're celebrating with poutine; bags of imported chips; boxes of Smarties (note to Americans: "Smarties" are like sweeter, better M&Ms not sugar tablets, get your shit together); a playlist of The New Radicals, I Mother Earth, and Stompin' Tom Connors; and a bunch of dollar store Canada Day merch that US customs opened and looked through in shipping.

Apparently they don't let you shoot off fireworks here though because I guess when people do that here the whole state catches on fire.

Hoping for a Canada Day sale on Steam.

Some cities let you shoot off fireworks, but yeah with the entire state being made out of dry brush fireworks just make the wildfires worse (or better?).
 

Grief.exe

Member
Random questions..

Is there a list of early access games that have successfully made it to "finished game" status? Is there even a time limit agreement/rule from Valve?
Because it seems that some, if not most, early access games are just content with their current status.

I think people don't realize how game development progresses, especially in a small team.

The nature of software development means that progress will comes slow, but people are wired to expect instant gratification.

I see so many posts on GAF that specifically target Early Access and Kickstarter as negative things, but the data seems to scream the opposite. The majority of Early Access games putter along on their development schedules, many end up releasing, and many go on to be some of the highest rated releases on Steam. By extension, the Kickstarter program has been very successful as well, but people tend to remember the failed products.

vh694tB.png
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Yo, if Stump's poutine isn't using cheese curds then it's barely a Wednesday, let alone a Canada Day.

The good news is, we're using cheese curds. The bad news is, they're Wisconsin cheese curds. Compared to St. Albert Cheese Curds, WI is basically McDonalds tier.
mAy2PLn.gif
 

Caerith

Member
I think people don't realize how game development progresses, especially in a small team.

The nature of software development means that progress will comes slow, but people are wired to expect instant gratification.

I see so many posts on GAF that specifically target Early Access and Kickstarter as negative things, but the data seems to scream the opposite. The majority of Early Access games putter along on their development schedules, many end up releasing, and many go on to be some of the highest rated releases on Steam. By extension, the Kickstarter program has been very successful as well, but people tend to remember the failed products.
Hey, if I wanted to buy a broken, unfinished game I'd pre-order it for $60 so I could get retailer-specific DLC.
 

Omega

Banned
Unless there's new characters for SFV it's not gonna be cool enough though. Shame that the beta isn't in July for SFV. But the PS4 beta apparently is. You would thing the cross play would be something to try and get working day 1.

Why would there not be reveals? It's the biggest fighting game tournament of the year.

That would be like if Sony had announced The Last Guardian in a press release during August or something instead of E3.

even if there wasn't, Tekken 7/MKX/SF. the only disappointment is no KoF13
 
15 Successful games doesn't really prove Early Access is a good thing, it just shows that there were 15 developers who respected their games enough not to push them out for a quick buck and run when they got bored. You need a much deeper pool of samples.
 

Grief.exe

Member
15 Successful games doesn't really prove Early Access is a good thing, it just shows that there were 15 developers who respected their games enough not to push them out for a quick buck and run when they got bored. You need a much deeper pool of samples.

The funny thing about that picture is I initially set out to find a few Early Access games that were around 95%+ Steam reviewer score. I literally just had to give up since they just seemed to be never ending.

not to push them out for a quick buck and run when they got bored. You need a much deeper pool of samples.

The ironic part is the larger group of samples show that the majority of games in Early Access program are not abandoned.
 
The funny thing about that picture is I initially set out to find a few Early Access games that were around 95%+ Steam reviewer score. I literally just had to give up since they just seemed to be never ending.



The ironic part is the larger group of samples show that the majority of games in Early Access program are not abandoned.

Do a study, it'd be interesting to find out. Actually... wasn't someone already attempting that, or was that with Kickstarters?
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
15 Successful games doesn't really prove Early Access is a good thing, it just shows that there were 15 developers who respected their games enough not to push them out for a quick buck and run when they got bored. You need a much deeper pool of samples.

Well, 13 of the top 100 Steam games right now are either Early Access (all pretty late in dev) or previously Early Access.
 

Deitus

Member
15 Successful games doesn't really prove Early Access is a good thing, it just shows that there were 15 developers who respected their games enough not to push them out for a quick buck and run when they got bored. You need a much deeper pool of samples.

And on the other hand, a handful of failed Early Access games, or games that went a bit too long between updates is hardly proof that early access is bad. For that matter, it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a list of games with a traditional development model that launched broken or without all of the advertized features.

At the end of the day, the Early Access model gives some developers a bit more flexibility to develop a game on their own timeframe (without going broke in the meantime), but of course not every game using the model is going to be a success. As always, it's up to the consumers to do their research as to whether a game is worth their money.
 
That's why I'm asking, I have no idea, but I can't make an informed decision when all I'm shown are a handful of positive examples. I'd honestly be interested in a study towards the effects and reputations of Early Access release. There was a good bit of insight in the Indie Dev thread from someone who released in Early Access compared to their Official Release.

I'll see if I can find it.
 

Caerith

Member
There's a lot of things I don't understand about how the gamer mind works, but one of them is why there's a debate about Early Access and why that debate isn't whether it should be mandatory.

Lots of games come out broken and/or incomplete, and many of them are never fixed and/or finished. Why is there outcry over the idea of slapping a label (reading "yo this might not work") on these games?
 
To be fair, I'm probably putting Early Access and Greenlight into the same bracket, which isn't entirely fair.

Here's Dascu's experience with Early Acess:

As promised, some short reflections on the Early Access of Malebolgia:

I had three goals in mind with putting Malebolgia on Early Access. The first is the standard objective of EA, namely to get feedback on gameplay mechanics and to engage with the players on a regular basis. I was however very disappointed in this respect. I only got limited feedback on the Steam forums. That is partly because not that many people bought and played the game. But I think even more than that, it didn't make a great deal of sense to put a single-player and story-focused horror game on EA. A lot of people were apprehensive to buy the game in the first place, because it makes far more sense to wait until it's finished and you can experience the entire story from start to end. Buying it in December to play the final version in May is a bit foolish. There was also no incentive to keep playing it. I had a lot of people buy it at launch, play until the EA limit (which is about halfway through the game), and then not touch it again until the final release. The result is that I did not get any new feedback from those players even when I uploaded new builds. I had no one to tell me whether the update was an improvement or not.

The second objective of EA was to gain visibility and test the waters. In that regard, it was moderately successful. It really helped to create some awareness (though overall still very little), by way of some EA previews and YouTube playthroughs. Most of these were also positive, with players appreciating the atmosphere while giving some of the flaws (like animations or stiff combat) a pass since it the game was unfinished. It helped me identify the strengths and weaknesses of the game. Though, and this refers back to the previous paragraph, I don't think I ever quite managed to polish the weak spots as well as I should have. Largely to my own lack of skill, time and also due to the vague nature of feedback. The EA period further brought in some initial cashflow which helped to fund licenses and other costs, while at the same time tempering my expectations.

Third, EA helped me prepare. Next to giving me some much-needed boosts of confidence with a positive preview, it took some pressure off my shoulders by not making the release a one-shot game. It allowed me to put my project out there without the need to have everything "finished". I could take care of bugs at a less demanding tempo and it gave me time to become familiar with Steam(works), publishing and community engagement. Since this was my first full game release, I found EA invaluable in that regard.

In summary:
- Community feedback and interaction to polish game design was lacking, due to nature of game and small market reach.
- Somewhat reasonable indicator of potential for success.
- EA worked great as prep-time for a novice in game development and publishing.

In the future, I don't think I would go back to Early Access unless the product is more fit for that purpose. I.e. Less focus on story and more something that supports continuous updates without seeing player drop-off. For the type of game Malebolgia is, testing and gameplay iteration should (have been/) be more targeted to a small and dedicated group of testers.

I also want to add that the full release revenue from the first 24hrs was almost twice as much as the combined revenue of six months of EA. Sales are dropping off again now though. The income is incredibly modest in the grand scheme of things. Luckily this has been a hobby project in my spare time. However, the sales have covered all of my past and near-future costs in terms of licenses, devkits, etc. I'm keen to find out how things like the upcoming Summer Sale or (later on) participation in bundles will help.

The outline for the future of Malebolgia is:
- Continuous minor updates to fix bugs or do little tweaks based on feedback from the Steam community forums.
- A more large-scale update is planned to update sound effects and, to the extent feasible, improve animations and combat.
- Mac/Linux versions, possibly combined with that large-scale update.
- Ahead of Summer Sale, I want to introduce Steam trading cards.
- Development of WiiU version for eShop release, probably late Summer or early Fall.
 

SSPssp

Member
There's a lot of things I don't understand about how the gamer mind works, but one of them is why there's a debate about Early Access and why that debate isn't whether it should be mandatory.

Lots of games come out broken and/or incomplete, and many of them are never fixed and/or finished. Why is there outcry over the idea of slapping a label (reading "yo this might not work") on these games?

I think the problem is that it just makes it easier for excuses to be made by both the devs and consumers. There's no logical reason why slapping a label would be a problem, but just the way people react to it.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Compared to how many that have negative reviews?

False comparison; if there are 100 bad EA games that all look terrible from day one and sell 100 copies each, that's far less significant than a single wonderful EA game that emerges from obscurity to sell a million copies. You'd have to find examples of EA games that both reached a wide audience and were abandoned or otherwise terrible.

I'm seriously not sure why anyone should case that a game that looks like it was thrown together with default Unity assets in 5 minutes and sold for $0.19 on its first week of release... plays like a game that was thrown together with default Unity assets in 5 minutes and sold for $0.19 on its first week of release.

The best case "against" Early Access is stuff like Towns, Under the Ocean, (and I guess arguably Spacebase DF-9) and other games that attracted sizeable audiences who generally thought the games had potential... and were then let down during the course of development. I think any honest attempt to compare those cases to the unexpected successes is going to find that Early Access is justified.

As always, caveat emptor; don't buy on potential, buy on what's there.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
One challenge is that I'm not sure Steam retains EA tags for games that aren't on EA anymore (and certainly not games that have been pulled from sale), so it'd require a lot of manual labour. Maybe one of the SteamDB guys has an exhaustive tag archive of games, including pulled-from-sale games.
 

Caerith

Member
False comparison; if there are 100 bad EA games that all look terrible from day one and sell 100 copies each, that's far less significant than a single wonderful EA game that emerges from obscurity to sell a million copies. You'd have to find examples of EA games that both reached a wide audience and were abandoned or otherwise terrible.

I'm seriously not sure why anyone should case that a game that looks like it was thrown together with default Unity assets in 5 minutes and sold for $0.19 on its first week of release... plays like a game that was thrown together with default Unity assets in 5 minutes and sold for $0.19 on its first week of release.

The best case "against" Early Access is stuff like Towns, Under the Ocean, (and I guess arguably Spacebase DF-9) and other games that attracted sizeable audiences who generally thought the games had potential... and were then let down during the course of development. I think any honest attempt to compare those cases to the unexpected successes is going to find that Early Access is justified.

As always, caveat emptor; don't buy on potential, buy on what's there.
Of course, the same case against Early Access can be made against AAA games, many of which have potential and turn out to be letdowns. The only difference is you don't buy an AAA game while it's still in development, you pre-order it.
 

dex3108

Member
Well you know what Shia Labeouf's view on the matter is.

Not really, I tend not to care for current youtube pop culture.

One challenge is that I'm not sure Steam retains EA tags for games that aren't on EA anymore (and certainly not games that have been pulled from sale), so it'd require a lot of manual labour. Maybe one of the SteamDB guys has an exhaustive tag archive of games, including pulled-from-sale games.

Yeah hopefully SteamDB or Steamspy have some data.
 
Great OT title.

Does anyone actually use Steam Broadcasting? I've been looking for Quiplash games tonight, and found 1 guy on Steam streaming to 6 people, and 3 people on Twitch streaming to dozens each.

I don't like using Steam Broadcasting. It's a nice feature for all folks who want to Steam but I rather use Twitch/OBS. Quiplash seems like fun, might get it down the road some time.
 

Sarcasm

Member
Does anyone actually use Steam Broadcasting? I've been looking for Quiplash games tonight, and found 1 guy on Steam streaming to 6 people, and 3 people on Twitch streaming to dozens each.

Friends and I use it to check games out if not all of us have it. Surprisingly doesn't crap out and high quality where as twitch is a crap shot of it works or not and when it does not very great to begin with.

Still use twitch more often though.
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
Gaben wants us to go out in the sun
 
I think people don't realize how game development progresses, especially in a small team.

The nature of software development means that progress will comes slow, but people are wired to expect instant gratification.

I see so many posts on GAF that specifically target Early Access and Kickstarter as negative things, but the data seems to scream the opposite. The majority of Early Access games putter along on their development schedules, many end up releasing, and many go on to be some of the highest rated releases on Steam. By extension, the Kickstarter program has been very successful as well, but people tend to remember the failed products.

I think it's kinda different for me.
I see kickstarter as a positive thing, but I still think early access negatively. I know that a kickstarter will deliver the game, as the output is usually a finished game. But when I see an early access game, I always end up thinking "will this ever finished?" or "when can I finally play the full version of this game"? I'm afraid when the game is finally finished, I've already forgot it or just lost interest.
 

Caerith

Member
I am reading topic about compensation for bad Arkham Knight PC port on WB forums and can't believe what i am reading. People think that giving away Season Pass to PC owners is too much. Some of them think that skin packs would be enough.

http://community.wbgames.com/t5/Sup...the-season-pass-for-free-for-this/td-p/576229

"Consider yourself lucky that they're even fixing the game."

I swear, people like this make me wish they made a suppository version of Imodium AD that would stop them from talking.
 

Phinor

Member
I am reading topic about compensation for bad Arkham Knight PC port on WB forums and can't believe what i am reading. People think that giving away Season Pass to PC owners is too much. Some of them think that skin packs would be enough.

http://community.wbgames.com/t5/Sup...the-season-pass-for-free-for-this/td-p/576229

I kind of agree with those people. At some point the word entitled does come into mind when people are buying Arkham Knight copies right now (from sources outside of Steam) hoping/expecting that they do indeed get a free season pass and/or a game on top of that. If they don't, they plan to first rage all over the Internet about an offer that didn't even exist when they bought the game, and then ask for a refund anyway.

If WB does throw a season pass freebie for PC gamers, it should be considered a nice gesture, not something that was expected of them especially since nothing like that has been announced at all. Don't get me wrong, I would love a free thing on top of a purchase I made but some people are acting like it's inevitable. Then again, I already have the season pass so I guess I should demand something else from WB. (Actually the season pass announcement was the reason I got a Premium edition from.. let's say non-official store to cut costs.)
 

Arthea

Member
I can't be only one very disappointed that Shiness is EA....
Hopefully it won't stay there for years.
Nice thread, btw

edited: unless Trails SC gets released this month as many of us hope, it will be cheapest month for me in years, as in not buying anything.
 
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