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[PSqueak]

The only boy that can be born is 1 every 100 years and is evil by all accounts we have.
They were at best viewed as kidnapping, thieving tribe and certainly as antagonistic.
They're known for stealing people and their belonging, how is that in any way good?
At least in Botw, you get to see them interact more than just trying to kill you on sight.

I think BOTW implies when boys are born they're sent to live with the fathers now, and they don't use guys just to reproduce now, one of the vendors speaks about her husband.

 

[koss424]

Star Wars is the worst offender. Light side vs. Dark side, Sith wear black robes, space is black, the list goes on

I'm sure this is a joke. But in case it's not these are universal themes that Star Wars - Space Opera just though into a scifi flick . It exists in every culture

 

[Pompadour]

Meanwhile, it's something I had been aware of since I was a child, which saddened me. Ganondorf was notable for me with this, as basically the only major black character I was aware of, with the Nintendo 64 being my first console.

Doesn't he have olive green skin (plus the bright red hair)?

 

[SenkiDala]

Lots to unpack here.
on the bold the difference is that men in games are portrayed as the player wanting to be them, women are portrayed as the player wanting to fuck them.
It's the same issue with PoC representation in games, except no one really gives a shit (exhibit A:this thread).

"I'm a white dude so maybe I don't get it, but..." <proceeds to show that he truly doesn't get it>

Yeah, okay. By the way, the problem with representation of women isn't that they're good-looking, it's that they're often sexualized. Completely different thing. You don't see Nathan Drake or Joel walking around in a speedo because that'd be patently ridiculous, but that kind of ridiculousness always gets a pass for many female characters because they're designed as sex objects first and foremost.

Oh... Yeah I can see that now. Well I didn't think that way I admit, it's true that women are "attractive" and sexualized, I didn't think that Nathan Drake for exemple was not "sexualized enough" to make girls think "hey I'd fuck him", but mostly because I've always been thinking about guys (not all of them) as persons who easily wanna fuck anything possible and girls (but again not all of them) to be more down to earth persons on that subject. Personnaly I've never thought at a girl character in the way "damn I'd fuck her", there's some girls character in games for who I'd feel "hey she has a nice personality, I like people like that" but not physically... And I mean there's VG characters after all so I didn't think about that too much, I've to admit.

But yes ok you're right I admit, women characters are way more sexualized than men, in a "fuckable" way, I just didn't think like that.

And yeah as I said I maybe didn't get it at first, it's why I'm on a forum, to discuss, if I'm absolutly sure to be right or that my opinion is the "best" or the good one I'll insist, but if I'm wrong or see that another opinion is better than mine, no problem I'll admit it.

Have you A) ever played RE5 and B) ever been to any countries in Africa? I love me some RE5 but jesus christ I dunno what Capcom was thinking with certain sections of that game.

A) Yes, finished it like 10 times! :O B) No, never been to an African country but what is wrong in RE5 about that? You mean that on the first version there were only black characters so it was not realistic enough since most of North African countries have Arabian people and not only black? Well yeah but in some countries of Africa, people are 95% black, no?

 

[SkyOdin]

So today I've learned that green characters are poc

I am going to go off an a tangent about that.

The Orcs in the Warcraft series are green-akinned. Their culture is also heavily inspired by African culture. Meanwhile, the blue-skinned Trolls speak with Jamaican accents and have a culture clearly based on Caribbean culture. Meanwhile, Native Americans were turned into cow-people, and East Asians were all made into Pandas.

The humans? They are all fair-skinned European Christians.

Fantasy/Sci-Fi has an endemic race issue that has persisted for decades, particular in the strain that has roots in D&D. Only white people get to lay claim to being human, everyone else is turned into green-skinned monsters that humans can feel free to kill on sight. European culture is seen as the norm, while different cultures are "othered".

This is compounded by a trend, particularly in Japanese pop-culture, to use dark skin to demark characters who are not human. It is common to see works where all of the fair-skinned characters are humans, while the dark-skinned characters are all animal people, demons, or aliens. Take FFXII for example: the only dark-skinned character is a rabbit-woman.

 

[nel e nel]

Never noticed this pattern. Indeed, the first 20 evil guys that came to my mind are all white.

What color do bad guys typically wear?

 

[aBarreras]

If only evil people could use haki you would have a point.

im not stating anything, but that poster say something about, "evil people temporaly turning black", with examples such as Greed or the senator from MGR, but i dont understand his/her point? the blackness it just a representation of armor? or something?

i dont know what does have to do with skin or race

 

[Salty Rice]

Its not like their evil twins or themselves becoming dark changes ethnicity.

Making them darker is just a sign of them being... darker.

Nothing racist about this only if you really want it to be.

What color do bad guys typically wear?

Really cool ones do wear white suits.

 

[PSqueak]

It makes no sense for Violent Ken's skin to be darker. You can make up some BS about the Dark Hado being able to turn skin darker but Violent Ken is just Ken under the influence of Psycho Power. Psycho Power doesn't make Bison's skin darker.

Well, hilariously, given that the good side of Bison's soul is A WHITE WOMAN, we had no way to know it didn't until Ed came into the picture, who is as white as can be, but has psycho power.

 

[KarmaCow]

A simple representation, cliche if you will, that as a princess you expect another lifestyle, not the sea life. Just that, a visual clue. This a videogame after all.

No one is denying the cliche, in fact that's the point. It's not enough that shes wearing an ornate dress and jewellery, she must also have lighter skin because either they believe Tetra with her tanned skin is a princess or they don't think the player will believe it. Either way, it's fucked.

Its not like their evil twins or themselves becoming dark changes ethnicity.

Making them darker is just a sign of them being... darker.

Nothing racist about this only if you really want it to be.


Really cool ones to wear white suits.

You don't see the problem with associating darker skin with being evil?

 

[Budi]

Because this bears repeating. Give this video a watch.

Oh man this one, it's heartbreaking really. Can't watch it without tearing up.

 

[nel e nel]

I am going to go off an a tangent about that.

The Orcs in the Warcraft series are green-akinned. Their culture is also heavily inspired by African culture. Meanwhile, the blue-skinned Trolls speak with Jamaican accents and have a culture clearly based on Caribbean culture. Meanwhile, Native Americans were turned into cow-people, and East Asians were all made into Pandas.

The humans? They are all fair-skinned European Christians.

Fantasy/Sci-Fi has an endemic race issue that has persisted for decades, particular in the strain that has roots in D&D. Only white people get to lay claim to being human, everyone else is turned into green-skinned monsters that humans can feel free to kill on sight. European culture is seen as the norm, while different cultures are "othered".

This is compounded by a trend, particularly in Japanese pop-culture, to use dark skin to demark characters who are not human. It is common to see works where all of the fair-skinned characters are humans, while the dark-skinned characters are all animal people, demons, or aliens. Taje FFXII for example: the only dark-skinned character is a rabbit-woman.

It's a double edged sword though. Sci-fi/fantasy has historically used aliens as a way to make social commentary on race issues at times when it wasn't acceptable to openly address it.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

A) Yes, finished it like 10 times! :O B) No, never been to an African country but what is wrong in RE5 about that? You mean that on the first version there were only black characters so it was not realistic enough since most of North African countries have Arabian people and not only black? Well yeah but in some countries of Africa, people are 95% black, no?

RE5 is commonly criticised for having the player go to an African country where all the locals are literal zombies out to kill you (even if as the victims of the game's villains), to the point it's suspected Sheva was tossed in as a partial pre-emptive measure against criticism.

 

[SnakeEyes]

Don't worry, Ubisoft and Far Cry 5 got you covered fam.

 

[sanstesy]

the way the Gerudo are portrayed in OoT, Nabooru might as well not exist. Ganondorf is their clear and legitimate leader and they're seen as thieving and kidnapping people who are absolutely not portrayed as anything but people to fear and avoid.

But she does exist and gives context. They never kidnapped anyone in OoT before Nabooru got brainwashed by Ganondorf and before were actually just secular race/Gerudos wanted to distance themselves from the people of Hyrule. They were feared (which is especially cool as they are a powerful women-only clan) but not portrayed as evil.

The only boy that can be born is 1 every 100 years and is evil by all accounts we have.
They were at best viewed as kidnapping, thieving tribe and certainly as antagonistic.
They're known for stealing people and their belonging, how is that in any way good?
At least in Botw, you get to see them interact more than just trying to kill you on sight.

Yeah, in BotW they became just one of the other one-dimensional tribes just like in Majora's Mask which is replaced with the one-dimensional Yiga Clan that are now the bad dudes.

 

[Trojita]

How did The Amish get away with not looking evil?

Or do they?

 

[LotusHD]

Because this bears repeating. Give this video a watch.

Damn, I remember this video. But yea, believe it or not, kids pick up on this shit and internalize it.

But hey, stuff like what the OP mentioned is only racist if you want to be apparently...

 

[JonnyDBrit]

This is compounded by a trend, particularly in Japanese pop-culture, to use dark skin to demark characters who are not human. It is common to see works where all of the fair-skinned characters are humans, while the dark-skinned characters are all animal people, demons, or aliens. Take FFXII for example: the only dark-skinned character is a rabbit-woman.

To be honest I suspect that slots under my earlier point about dark skin as exotification. Because that same rabbit-woman isn't exactly dressed to hide her figure.

 

[Loz246789]

(I think when I was MUCH younger, I always internalised the whole Tetra thing as her wearing a ton of makeup. In hindsight, I gave the game a bit too much credit in that regard.)

It's definitely a problem in many Japanese games. The only reason Kingdom Hearts gets away with it is that

Spoiler

they're all the same person

, but the PotC world aside, there's still a huge diversity issue, and that's not unusual either.

Things have started to get a little better (Twintelle from ARMS looks badass, for example), but this combined with their treatment of women, never mind the lgbt community, leads me to believe a few notable exceptions aside, the Japanese gaming industry has a problem. I hope they get a wakeup call at some point.

 

[Mael]

I think BOTW implies when boys are born they're sent to live with the fathers now, and they don't use guys just to reproduce now, one of the vendors speaks about her husband.

In Oot, it is clearly stated that there's only 1 boy every 100 years and he's the King by birth.
BotW is better on all counts, including this angle.

im not stating anything, but that poster say something about, "evil people temporaly turning black", with examples such as Greed or the senator from MGR, but i dont understand his/her point? the blackness it just a representation of armor? or something?

i dont know what does have to do with skin or race

No, the point is that the imagery used for evil people turning black even temporarily.
If in Revengeance the only character who does that is evil, it's basically used a signifier that he's evil even subconsciously.
It's another correlation that means that black skin = evil.
OP is entirely different, skin turning black is just the propriety of the skin changing because of haki.
It's not a thing like black skin = evil because everyone does it.

 

[PtM]

I swear we've had this thread.

 

[Pompadour]

It makes no sense for Violent Ken's skin to be darker. You can make up some BS about the Dark Hado being able to turn skin darker but Violent Ken is just Ken under the influence of Psycho Power. Psycho Power doesn't make Bison's skin darker.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Akuma always had dark skin. So Evil Ryu's skin color makes no sense.

The real reason is these characters are pallette swaps so darkening their skin tone is an easy way to further differentiate them from their original forms. It's laziness more than anything.

Plus, while randomly giving characters who turn evil darker skin a trope in the East, there's a prominent trope of giving villains sickly white skin to demonstrate that they're inhuman. At least that's on par with the characters who literally turn black hole black as noted in this thread.

 

[SenkiDala]

RE5 is commonly criticised for having the player go to an African country where all the locals are literal zombies out to kill you (even if as the victims of the game's villains), to the point it's suspected Sheva was tossed in as a partial pre-emptive measure against criticism.

But wasn't it the same in RE4 with Spanish people? They are protrayed as stupid infected hillbillies... As a French I've a culture very similar to the Spanish one and I've never felt offended or insulted by this game...

 

[PSqueak]

How did The Amish get away with not looking evil?

Or do they?

If you think about it, the Amish are kinda a victim of the same phenomenon, because years and years of "small town" horror movies made their iconography look creepy as fuck.

I swear we've had this thread.

And we'll continue to have it as long as it's relevant.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

videogames are very progressive

 

[borges]

What color do bad guys typically wear?

Not brown.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

If I were to guess why Japan does this a lot it's probably from their view of dark skin people as exotic. If it's exotic looking it's origins are foreign and mysterious and it goes to people fearing what they don't know.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sad shit. If the black character ain't evil, they're angry(Barret) or an idiot(Sazh) or a mix of both(Cole Train).

Sazh was the smartest one in that game.

 

[Mael]

But she does exist and gives context. They never kidnapped anyone in OoT before Nabooru got brainwashed by Ganondorf and before were actually just secular and Gerudos wanted to distance themselves from the people of Hyrule. They were feared (which is especially cool as they are a powerful women-only clan) but not portrayed as evil.

Yeah doubt that.
Ganondorf is clearly older than Nabooru and since the game states that once he was born he was king (and evil as implied in the game and explained in skyward sword....another game where black = evil).
It's never stated anywhere that they were sedentary before or anything, I'll ask you to source where you take this because the game or any other game state this.

Yeah, in BotW they became just one of the other one-dimensional tribes just like in Majora's Mask.

At least they were given depth, instead of 1 stealth mission and a dungeon.
The bird people are 1 dimensional, the gerudos are better than ever in BotW.

 

[Order]

Another thing that bothers me is the "dark skin, white hair" trope. Like, I get it from an artistic perspective. It's a nice contrast, but can't you have your black character actually look black?

I swear we've had this thread.

Did you not contribute to that one too

 

[SenkiDala]

Sazh was the smartest one in that game.

Yeah, the 2 other exemples are good but Sazh was really not an idiot.

 

[Salty Rice]

You don't see the problem with associating darker skin with being evil?

No because the association of Black/Dark = Evil is a thing since the dawn of humanity.

I never thought about the ethnicity of a bad guy when they become or are darker.

Like i said its problem if you want it to be a problem.

 

[nel e nel]

Its not like their evil twins or themselves becoming dark changes ethnicity.

Making them darker is just a sign of them being... darker.

Nothing racist about this only if you really want it to be.



Really cool ones do wear white suits.

Completely missing the point. Just because a few "cool" bad guys wear white doesn't negate generations of traditions of bad guys wearing black or being dark.

 

[atr0cious]

It's a double edged sword though. Sci-fi/fantasy has historically used aliens as a way to make social commentary on race issues at times when it wasn't acceptable to openly address it.

Historically black people weren't seen as people, doesn't make it right or something that should be tolerated. Seen a lot of "it's 2017..." posts on GAF lately, but this is the first thread on gaming side where the phrase has relevance.

 

[Shaanyboi]

If I were to guess why Japan does this a lot it's probably from their view of dark skin people as exotic. If it's exotic looking it's origins are foreign and mysterious and it goes to people fearing what they don't know.

Japan has plenty of internal racist prejudices against those with darker skin within the country.

I remember a video from a Japanese teacher talking to his students about just how little progressive discussions of race happens there.

 

[aBarreras]

Yeah, the 2 other exemples are good but Sazh was really not an idiot.

cole train is not a good example

 

[BlazinSkatinAxel]

A recent Anita S. video brought it up on how in various games, evil characters are depicted with a darker skin tone too.

Evil Ryu.... Violent Ken anyone?

 

[SenkiDala]

cole train is not a good example

Well he's just funny yeah, not really idiot.

 

[BlazinSkatinAxel]

Sad shit. If the black character ain't evil, they're angry(Barret) or an idiot(Sazh) or a mix of both(Cole Train).

Cole Train is a play on Terry Tate Office Linebacker which is played by the same actor.

 

[Zomba13]

The whole "Ganondorf isn't green he's brown!" stuff is super funny to me. He's very obviously green (olive green, whatever) and not brown like the other Gerudo BUT he's still very obviously supposed to be a minority/different from the Hylian and Kokori with his darker skin. Like, people saying he's green and not brown aren't saying that he doesn't apply to the "dark skin people = evil" trope, they are just stating a fact that the colour used to depict his dark skin is a shade of green, not brown.

 

[MKIL65]

videogames are very progressive

And as shown in Persona 5, Japanese developers still haven't learned how to correctly portray homosexuals. Fucking embarrassing.

 

[cmChimera]

A simple representation, cliche if you will, that as a princess you expect another lifestyle, not the sea life. Just that, a visual clue. This a videogame after all.

First off, it's the same character, so I'm still trying to figure how she would lose her tan. Secondly, the game puts her in traditional princess Zelda clothes and, since there is no voice acting, literally spells out that she's a princess. Why would I need any more visual aides?

Besides, the "dark" side is usually portrayed as equally powerful/more powerful than the "light" side but with a corrupting influence.

Ryu embraces the dark hadou and therefore gets glowing eyes and a changed skin color and clothes to signify the change. It wouldnt make much sense if the dark hadou turned him orange.

The idea that you should associate "corrupting influence" with a darker skin complexion is the problem. You're explaining the issue on your own, but somehow not getting the issue. It's really bizarre.

Also, why does Ryu need to change skin tones at all? Are you saying the only way you could make someone look evil is to give them a darker complexion? Is orange too bright of a color for you to associate with evil?

 

[Rncewind]

Didnt accure to me that there is pattern but i am white male so.


The only time i "recognized" something like this was actually when i was a teenager in wind waker with tetra. I thought it was bonkers lol. I rather thought it was incredibly dumb too instead of being racist or something back then

 

[Maintenance]

Ganondorf has actually a solid lore reason for it as he is a Gerudo.

Lore isn't an excuse, otherwise Quiet would be ok.

 

[Pompadour]

The whole "Ganondorf isn't green he's brown!" stuff is super funny to me. He's very obviously green (olive green, whatever) and not brown like the other Gerudo BUT he's still very obviously supposed to be a minority/different from the Hylian and Kokori with his darker skin. Like, people saying he's green and not brown aren't saying that he doesn't apply to the "dark skin people = evil" trope, they are just stating a fact that the colour used to depict his dark skin is a shade of green, not brown.

Yeah, the Gerudo are clearly inspired by Arabs but Ganondorf, the monstrous evil, has green skin and not brown/black skin. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with giving brown skin to morally good or neutral characters.

 

[Zomba13]

cole train is not a good example

They aren't saying "good example" as positive, they are saying "good example" in the original poster gave a correct example.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Because this bears repeating. Give this video a watch.

Man, that's just heartbreaking. And just in case there's any doubt that is a society-imposed and media-reinforced perception, historically, whenever black people first came into contact with white people for the first time, they were usually freaked out because to them, they looked like dead people / ghosts.

It's frankly messed up to think even kids are brainwashed like that from birth. No wonder people make absolutely brilliant arguments like "it's always been that dark skin = evil, it has nothing to do with race" even in this thread.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Yeah, in BotW they became just one of the other one-dimensional tribes just like in Majora's Mask which is replaced with the one-dimensional Yiga Clan that are now the bad dudes.

You clearly didn't play the game

 

[sanstesy]

Yeah doubt that.
Ganondorf is clearly older than Nabooru and since the game states that once he was born he was king (and evil as implied in the game and explained in skyward sword....another game where black = evil).
It's never stated anywhere that they were sedentary before or anything, I'll ask you to source where you take this because the game or any other game state this.

In Ocarina of Time, the Gerudo live in the Gerudo Desert, specifically within the Gerudo Valley, which is located in the northwest of Hyrule.[20] The Gerudo are well known for their reputation as a band of thieves, and many express fear of them.[3] In spite of this, they are known to visit Hyrule Castle Town to seek boyfriends there.[7] The Gerudo keep a tight security of their domain. In order to reach the Valley, Link must first cross a bridge over a deep river gorge flowing to Lake Hylia. In the past, it is heavily guarded by several Gerudo and a gate. In the future seven years later, these defenses are gone; instead, the Gerudo have decided to simply destroy the bridge to prevent outsiders from reaching their domain.

http://zelda.gamepedia.com/Gerudo

They are clearly portrayed as such in OoT.

At least they were given depth, instead of 1 stealth mission and a dungeon.
The bird people are 1 dimensional, the gerudos are better than ever in BotW.

They are better than ever represented but still 100 times less interesting than in OoT. I would have loved to explore a town of a thief tribe. Instead they are regulated to a one-dimensional tribe with a women-only twist.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Japan has plenty of internal racist prejudices against those with darker skin within the country.

I remember a video from a Japanese teacher talking to his students about just how little progressive discussions of race happens there.

Thinking on it, I suppose Japan also places an odd degree on skin tone in the other direction - super pretty and pale villains aren't exactly uncommon faces in their fiction either (toss in some effeminate behaviour/clothes for good measure). Skin tone as a marker of morality is kind of a trope. While the population remains highly homogenous both ethnically and visibly (hello generic light novel protagonist), it may be stuck like that for a while.