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[atr0cious]

Because it would have been Ol'Jones voice coming out of Hayden Christensen's mouth. Not to mention the entire point of James Earl Jones kinda raspy voice was because of Vaders mask.

James Earl Jones isn't the only deep voiced person in Hollywood, especially with a vocoder. You obviously don't care but many people of color notice when they're only the flavor of something, which JEJ was. When Anakin was revealed to be a white dude, it played right into evil = black. You not grasping this is in you, not us, who want to be more than a "perfect"voice for a white man in an almost all white production.

 

[Valahart]

Are Gaffers trully arguing against the fact that villains tend to be represented by black people, sometimes being the only people of color on the entire game?

I thought Gaf was a better place.

 

[PatThePassive]

I love Cole Train as much as anyone, but I also recognize that he is a pretty shallow stereotype of the hyped up black athlete.

Shallow compared to other characters in other games yes, for gears Cole train was somewhat flushed out. at least his gimmick wasn't he dies every game.

Also are stereotypes supposed to be off limits? Hyped up black athlete isn't that bad of a stereotype is it?
Not everyone can be on Clems level

So I just thought he was a hyped up athlete stereotype, since I've played a lot of sports and he sounds like a lot of hyped up jocks I've played with regardless of skin color.

I've never seen someone go full Cole train but everyone can get close when you pull something off that was crazy, that's why Cole train is so great we are all a little Cole Train.

 

[Mael]

I wouldn't say Revengeance applies. I mean, yeah, a lot of the (white) boss characters wear black (the Brazilian one wears white/beige) and the white guy that inspired Trump turns black when you hit him but it's because carbon fiber is black (he turns metalicy black) and it's all nano-machines and usual metal gear techno-magic bullshitery. Like, Raiden, the good guy (white), goes from a a white robot body into a black one after the tutorial and he's the hero character.

Then again I don't see the "dark clothing" as being the same as "black villain". Like, I'm fine if the bad guy is the only one wearing black or dark colours but if the only dark skinned character was the bad guy then it gets weird.

Again, I'm only going by the example provided.
I didn't play the game and I can only go from what people say.
Change in clothing to indicate evil is really another trop though.
It plays of the same stereotype (dark color = evil) as the racist cousin we're discussing but it's far less problematic.
In Full Metal, the guy doesn't get into blackface when he reveals his true form either so it's differnt too.
my point is I don't know about Revengeance.

 

[Pompadour]

Some people did find a problem with the fact that he was voiced by a black man only while he was evil.

The ultimate evil in that movie was super pale, though.

James Earl Jones isn't the only deep voiced person in Hollywood, especially with a vocoder. You obviously don't care but many people of color notice when they're only the flavor of something, which JEJ was. When Anakin was revealed to be a white dude, it played right into evil = black. You not grasping this is in you, not us, who want to be more than a "perfect"voice for a white man in an almost all white production.

I'm not into Star Wars at all but if Luke is white and Anakin is his father, wouldn't he have to be white? Mark Hamill certainly doesn't look biracial.

 

[BuckyBabbs]

No, i mean, in the original trilogy, there is a short scene before he dies where he speaks to luke without his mask, after his redemption act of killing the emperor himself, which uses the actual actor in the suit's voice rather than what we have been hearing during the entire trilogy, which to me is weird that they didn't dub Jone's voice for that one scene.

Ahhh. Gotcha. This is true. My guess is the higher ups wanted the James Earl Jones voice to be iconic to the helmet and they probably felt that no matter how calm the real James Earl Jones spoke, he'd still kinda sound Vader'ish ie:The Dark Side/Evil

 

[Mael]

No one can make Dick Cheney appear anything but evil.

 

[dmcRedgrave]

I've never seen someone go full Cole train but everyone can get close when you pull something off that was crazy, that's why Cole train is so great we are all a little Cole Train.

There's a little Cole Train in all of us. In the smile of every child. In the laugh of every baby.

 

[atr0cious]

Also are stereotypes supposed to be off limits? Hyped up black athlete isn't that bad of a stereotype is it?

It's the fucking future apocalypse, and the only black dude of note is a ball player. How is that not an issue that could've easily been solved, especially in a new IP?

 

[Paracelsus]

It's one thing to talk about skin as in race, another stuff like Evil Ryu. They just can't think of a better way to convey corruption (shadow taking over light) other than making everything darker.

In the latter one, the trick to save him is turning the Pegasus stars back on (by piercing all the pressure points on his body a la HNK) so that light can take over darkness again.

 

[udivision]

Are Gaffers trully arguing against the fact that villains tend to be represented by black people, sometimes being the only people of color on the entire game?

I thought Gaf was a better place.

So... most villains are black?

It's one thing to talk about skin as in race, another stuff like Evil Ryu. They just can't think of a better way to convey corruption (shadow taking over light) other than making everything darker.

That Orochimaru example is his of his arms actually dying... like the flesh was starting to rot IIRC.

 

[Weltall Zero]

One is also rooted in technical specifications, the other in understanding social norms... which they may or may not knowingly benefit from.

That's precisely what the role of empathy is. I'm a straight while able-bodied male in a first world country, not rich but not starved either; for me to understand privilege and discrimination, I have to put myself in others' shoes, and see through others' eyes: the definition of empathy. If you're neither in a disadvantaged group nor personally inclined to understand and emphatize with others' problems, then reducing discrimination is probably not going to rank very high in your priority list; in the worst case, you're going to see it as bothersome.

 

[PSqueak]

The ultimate evil in that movie was super pale, though.

Yup, i was thinking about this actually, i think this is a good way to make villians seem creepy and evil, like Bloodborne also has some shades of this where some enemies are very creepy looking because they're incredibly pale.

Tho i think this creates more of a "monster" vision than just "evil guy", papatine looks straight up inhuman.

 

[starchild excalibur]

Shallow compared to other characters in other games yes, for gears Cole train was somewhat flushed out. at least his gimmick wasn't he dies every game.

Also are stereotypes supposed to be off limits? Hyped up black athlete isn't that bad of a stereotype is it?
Not everyone can be on Clems level

But everyone can, if they bother to write them well enough. There were a lot of things I hated about Gears, but Cole was up there for me. But I guess in its defense, I found all of the characters insufferable in Gears 1-3.

 

[True Fire]

God some of these responses are dense. There's clearly an obvious pattern of "darker skin = bad," and saying that there's a lot of white villains isn't going to change that fact.

Stating that it's ok because black traditionally represents "bad" completely misses the point.

Giving examples of villains in black outfits or fantasy pitch black skin completely misses the point.

 

[Pompadour]

It's one thing to talk about skin as in race, another stuff like Evil Ryu. They just can't think of a better way to convey corruption (shadow taking over light) other than making everything darker.

The Orochimaru one I don't buy because he's definitely a part of the pale white = evil trope.

 

[Weltall Zero]

The ultimate evil in that movie was super pale, though.

I'm not into Star Wars at all but if Luke is white and Anakin is his father, wouldn't he have to be white? Mark Hamill certainly doesn't look biracial.

Yeah, Star Wars is one of the few places I would not look for racism. In fact, in the original trilogy the Empire is a pretty clear analogue of the Nazis, with every single imperial a human white male.

 

[dmcRedgrave]

Yeah, Star Wars is one of the few places I would not look for racism. In fact, in the original trilogy the Empire is a pretty clear analogue of the Nazis, with every single imperial a human white male.

But Jar-Jar though.

Oh and that Jew monster who owns Anakin's mom. I forget his name.

 

[RPGam3r]

It's one thing to talk about skin as in race, another stuff like Evil Ryu. They just can't think of a better way to convey corruption (shadow taking over light) other than making everything darker.





In the latter one, the trick to save him is turning the Pegasus stars back on (by piercing all the pressure points on his body a la HNK) so that light can take over darkness again.

Orochimaru is super pale and evil/corrupt. His arms getting darker is more akin to gangrene and has nothing to do with corruption.

 

[BuckyBabbs]

James Earl Jones isn't the only deep voiced person in Hollywood, especially with a vocoder. You obviously don't care but many people of color notice when they're only the flavor of something, which JEJ was. When Anakin was revealed to be a white dude, it played right into evil = black. You not grasping this is in you, not us, who want to be more than a "perfect"voice for a white man in an almost all white production.

Dooo you think that just maybe, jusssssssssst maybe, George Lucas was all like "Hey, James Earl Jones voice would be perfect for Vader"?
I don't know man, I kinda feel that it was an artistic choice they made and now Vader sounds cool and the many people that helped make Star Wars could get back to worrying about making the movie.
Perhaps race never had anything to do with it?
Crazy thinking on my part I know!

 

[The Bookerman]

Does that mean that Evil Ryu and Violent Ken should be considered of a different ethnicity or race?

It's like asking Darth Vader to repaint his costume white?

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

They did something like this in Xenosaga if I'm remembering correctly. T-elos was much darker than Kos-mos. Seems more rampant in Japan :/

 

[btrboyev]

This may be the biggest reach thread I've ever read on here. Someone grab a stool.

 

[PatThePassive]

But everyone can, if they bother to write them well enough. There were a lot of things I hated about Gears, but Cole was up there for me. But I guess in its defense, I found all of the characters insufferable in Gears 1-3.

It's the fucking future apocalypse, and the only black dude of note is a ball player. How is that not an issue that could've easily been solved, especially in a new IP?

Its gears not war and peace every character is shallow as hell.

Still you guys aren't wrong but I disagree because Cole fits into the world so well.

If the new gears had a new black character that was also a ball player I would agree that it needs to stop.


Edit: Hell if this scene isnt a little moving, you probably never had a good time playing on a team with friends
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQ3wRXiNuw
I've had sad daydreams almost identical to Cole walking up to the field because I was a loser. That scene just reaches me at a personal level.

There's a little Cole Train in all of us. In the smile of every child. In the laugh of every baby.

I swear to god when I get a pack in Sunday pick up bbal I almost let out a Whoooo!

 

[Shredderi]

If you think about, even Trump's complexion is a bit darker than your average white person's and he is a pretty evil character.

 

[dmcRedgrave]

They did something like this in Xenosaga if I'm remembering correctly. T-elos was much darker than Kos-mos. Seems more rampant in Japan :/

Yeahhhh but that's because she was supposed to be Middle Eastern because she was Mary Magdalene in a previous life or something and... fuckin' Xenosaga was so dumb.

 

[Pompadour]

The majority of the shit in this thread I'll cosign as being an issue. I don't buy that characters like Evil Ryu being a little darker than Ryu as an issue because, just like there's a ton of instances of characters becoming darker as they turn evil, there's tons of examples of characters becoming lighter when they turn evil. They're both tropes.

Evil Albino
Dark is Evil

 

[Izuna]

It's a Japanese way to signify strength or otherwise, feral-like behaviour. I don't feel affected by it at all and there are plenty more "evil version" characters who don't have darker skin.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

Yeahhhh but that's because she was supposed to be Middle Eastern because she was Mary Magdalene in a previous life or something and... fuckin' Xenosaga was so dumb.

Damn middle Eastern Androids lol.

 

[Synth]

It's also kinda weird in the case of ULTRA because i don't recall previous versions of evil ryu being dark skinned, only evil sakura.

I'm a bit late to this, but... Street Fighter Alpha 2 (which I believe is Evil Ryu's debut)

Ryu

Evil Ryu

 

[Kinyou]

Isn't the bad guy from Mulan completely grey? The point seemed more to make him look like death.

Maybe the Video has a point, but odd examples

 

[PSqueak]

I'm a bit late to this, but... Street Fighter Alpha 2 (which I believe is Evil Ryu's debut)

Ryu

Evil Ryu

my mistake, in hindsight i was mistaken because some of the art in Capcom Vs SNK didn't seem to make his skin that much different.

 

[Pompadour]

I'm a bit late to this, but... Street Fighter Alpha 2 (which I believe is Evil Ryu's debut)

Ryu

Evil Ryu

Like I said earlier this is more laziness than anything. They wanted another character so they made an "Evil" Ryu and to distinguish him from Ryu without spending any money they gave him slightly darker skin and a black gi.

They lampshaded how goofy that is with "Sunburned Sakura" who is essentially but Evil Sakura (she's possessed by the Satsui no Hadou) but since she debuted in a Versus game they got cheeky with the name.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Does that mean that Evil Ryu and Violent Ken should be considered of a different ethnicity or race?

It's like asking Darth Vader to repaint his costume white?

Jesus, nobody is asking that.

The video is about how media continually demonizes darker complexions. Not even just by different races, but it uses that shorthand to instill the notion that "lighter skin=good, darker skin=bad".

 

[Shadoken]

"It's not a big deal!" ~Some white guy.

Yea, thanks.

"It's not a big deal!" ~ Some poc guy
Oh wait those posts don't matter.


People in this thread are just randomly calling people of different opinion racist without even looking at the context. There's a difference between representing people of a certain ethnicity as evil characters. But protagonists getting a dark aura or skin when they become corrupt or evil doesn't really have racial intentions. It's more of light vs dark trope , which prolly dates all the way back to day vs night. With the night obviously being a representation of evil/corrupt/bad w/e .Not really white ppl vs black ppl.

The majority of the shit in this thread I'll cosign as being an issue. I don't buy that characters like Evil Ryu being a little darker than Ryu as an issue because, just like there's a ton of instances of characters becoming darker as they turn evil, there's tons of examples of characters becoming lighter when they turn evil. They're both tropes.

Evil Albino
Dark is Evil

This

 

[SixMachine]

Does that mean that Evil Ryu and Violent Ken should be considered of a different ethnicity or race?

There are darker skin japanese people, like people from Okinawa,(Believe it or not, Ken is suppose to be like 3/4 japanese, it is why he has dark eyebrows, he actually dyed his hair blonde. Just a side note) not everyone is the same shade in japan. Just because skin color is a characteristic of your ethnic group, it is not the defining thing, and there are different people within the same group.

 

[petran79]

Regarding anime, the pure white angels above are much more terrifying, dirty and evil than the poor devils below

 

[Izuna]

also

 

[cmChimera]

I mentioned Greed as an example specifically because they explain the black colour comes from pure carbon. Again, it's less some racial trait and more that their body is doing something unnatural. You could have this work as well with diamond skin, or some other hardened substance. In this case, it makes sense for contrast, since it was originally in black and white.

Spoiler

Do you consider Greed a villain? I feel like he's not (neither of them).

 

[KillLaCam]

also

Nah nah that's just Evil Nobunaga

 

[dmcRedgrave]

Nah nah that's just Evil Nobunaga

Violent Nobunaga.

 

[capylikesgames]

Why is this a debate? Nobody's saying all media follows this pattern, but using the antagonist's skin tone as a sign of their alignment in comparison to the protagonist's light skin is a regularly used, lazy and harmful approach to depicting good vs. evil. It's gotten a little better over time, I feel, but it's still present, and thus still worth discussing.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Regarding anime, the pure white angels above are much more terrifying, dirty and evil than the poor devils below

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or you actually don't understand what's going on

 

[Enigmatic Rainbow]

I've noticed it a lot too, and always assumed it usually was based on Yin and Yang:

 

[Synth]

Like I said earlier this is more laziness than anything. They wanted another character so they made an "Evil" Ryu and to distinguish him from Ryu without spending any money they gave him slightly darker skin and a black gi.

They lampshaded how goofy that is with "Sunburned Sakura" who is essentially but Evil Sakura (she's possessed by the Satsui no Hadou) but since she debuted in a Versus game they got cheeky with the name.

Yea, I'd chalk it primarily up to laziness as well... but the intention doesn't really change the result.

To be clear I'm not saying the creators of such characters are racist (unlike Shadoken suggests), but that doesn't mean it's not an issue nonetheless. If I create a female character that's heavily sexualised, that doesn't mean I'm a sexist person (hell, my male character make be equally - if not moreso - sexualised in the same game)... but if it so happens that 97% of all times a female character is added to a game, this happens to be the case, whilst male characters have plenty of positive examples, then it still represents a legitimate issue in regards to portrayal within the medium.

 

[ReyVGM]

I mean, I can attest to the fact that racism is rampant against black people and it bleeds into movies when they kill off the black guy first (which can be argued that it's not racism), but I've never associated racism with video games. There's literally tons of white/light skinned evil characters.

Unless Sean Bean is involved.

 

[Bacon_Boss]

I totally agree. While "Dark" and "Black" are used a lot to characterize "evil" versions of characters in japan(see Goku Black, Dark Link, Ryu etc.) it happens a lot in western culture too.

Unfortunately "darkness" as a concept kind of the seed of all evil in many cultures. I'm not so certain it's affecting kids perception of their black neighbors, but making black versions of characters the "evil" ones seems a little taboo, for sure.

 

[TissueBox]

This is a trope that, if you really want to at least temporarily suspend, (the media, the artists, people involved in the creative industry) better be devoted to pushing back the pattern for the next 10 - 15 years. I get that even if it's not intended to be racist/colorist, in the current climate it can do more good to get rid of it entirely, but that does go pretty deep into long-accepted notions of darkness and light. The final outcome will require many people to work together to uproot it.

 

[EekumBokum]

This thread man. It's astounding that so many can't comprehend this, I've been aware of it since I was a child.

 

[SicSemperTyrannis]

To blame our cultures assumption that dark skin = bad and light skin = good on movies, games and media in general is kind of odd to me. Even without reinforced visual representation of darker villains, I would argue the assumption that darker embodiments are antagonists is engrained long before we realize. In every religion I know of evil is portrayed by darkness, pure virtue is portrayed by light. Light vs Dark is just a theme and the fact that it is carried out in games and various media so literally isn't reinforcing any stereotype or agenda and is just a continuation of thousands of years of storytelling. If this was the reason people were racist shitbags everyone that grew up watching Disney movies, playing video games and watching tv would be a degenerate asshole to every person with a darker shade of skin. Come the fuck on people.