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[alstein]

Its far too early to say without Ultimate out, but I think Street Fighter will always be the main event. People can't shake it, as much as some of them hate it. Plus SFIV is a staple and brings in the international crowd and pros.

Would be a wonderful surprise if UMvC3 ends up being the main event though.

My guesses for next year:
SFxT, UMvC3, SFIVAE2012, SCV, MK9, Tekken 6. Or whatever TTT2 if it comes out in time.

Tekken 6 won't make it. Boring finals last year+ SC will steal a lot of thunder.

I don't think SFvsTK will draw large numbers given the initial hate.

MK9 will lose players to SC. I think it's got a chance of making it, but under 50%.

KOF will make it if people stick with it. It should be hype at Final Round, which is an SNK stronghold in the US, that might carry it to EVO. I give KOF about a 60% chance.

Skullgirls will have an exhibition of some sort, but I suspect the game won't draw all that well offline, but will have a great online community.

As for SF4, I think the thing is many folks think they don't have a choice but to play SF4. I hear that plenty locally. All these new games next year might draw some dissatisfied players away. Juicebox and Arturo will get on that KOF train at least.

 

[scytheavatar]

LOL @ KOFXIII making it to EVO. If no SNK game ever made it to EVO why would KOFXIII suddenly be chosen?

 

[Terareflection]

LOL @ KOFXIII making it to EVO. If no SNK game ever made it to EVO why would KOFXIII suddenly be chosen?

Because Wizard has expressed interest in the past, and would have been in Evo last year if it weren't for SNK.
Also your reasoning that games that have never been at EVO so they shouldn't be is absurd.

 

[LegatoB]

Because Wizard has expressed interest in the past, and would have been in Evo last year if it weren't for SNK.

I know there's going to be some controversy over not having fun games that everyone else had, and, I mean, it's time to let those games go, and move on. From here on out, we're probably going to be staying in high-definition games.

 

[Dahbomb]

Serious question why is this game getting so much hate? I am kinda hyped for it and will be getting it on PC. Gems or not.

People hate this game so much that it's already assumed that it might not make it for EVO2k12.

 

[Terareflection]

Serious question why is this game getting so much hate? I am kinda hyped for it and will be getting it on PC. Gems or not.

People hate this game so much that it's already assumed that it might not make it for EVO2k12.

The game doesn't seem to be made for competition, also this game might make to EVO over someone's favorite fighter. I think that's why everyone's angry.

 

[enzo_gt]

Serious question why is this game getting so much hate? I am kinda hyped for it and will be getting it on PC. Gems or not.

People hate this game so much that it's already assumed that it might not make it for EVO2k12.

Pre-order gems, presumably exclusive for a temporary period of time. Autoguard and tech gems that are counterintuitive to core gameplay mechanics.

Gems are a great, forward thinking idea. The handling of them is not.

 

[Skilletor]

Serious question why is this game getting so much hate? I am kinda hyped for it and will be getting it on PC. Gems or not.

People hate this game so much that it's already assumed that it might not make it for EVO2k12.

Mr. Wizard hates this game a lot. He compared it to CFJ.

I thought Gems in MSH were awesome. I don't know why we can't get something like that. My problem with the game is capcom saying that Disparity in skill level and throw techs are a problem. That shows me the game is meant for other people who don't share my mindset. Since Capcom typically makes games for competitive players, I think that's why there's such a backlash.

It's not a bad thing if the game is meant for the casual crowd. It's just odd to see this attempt coming from a developer with the legacy Capcom and their fighters have.

 

[corporate cheerleader]

Mr. Wizard hates this game a lot. He compared it to CFJ.

Not dissing him, but what are the similarities between CFJ and SFxT? It's a funny comparison.

 

[Skilletor]

Not dissing him, but what are the similarities between CFJ and SFxT? It's a funny comparison.

I don't think he meant gameplay wise. I think he meant in quality.

 

[corporate cheerleader]

I don't think he meant gameplay wise. I think he meant in quality.

That's... really bad.

 

[biosnake20]

Right now its all speculation. No one has played yet with the gems nor do we know if theyre overpowered or not. Also the gems that come with the pre orders could be garbage or banned if necessary. We just have to sit and wait till we know more. And what the fuck does Mr.Wizard know? Has he actually played the game with the gems in it?

 

[gundamkyoukai]

That's... really bad.

Was just about to say the same thing CFJ was really bad .

 

[Terareflection]

Mr. Wizard hates this game a lot. He compared it to CFJ.

I thought Gems in MSH were awesome. I don't know why we can't get something like that. My problem with the game is capcom saying that Disparity in skill level and throw techs are a problem. That shows me the game is meant for other people who don't share my mindset. Since Capcom typically makes games for competitive players, I think that's why there's such a backlash.

It's not a bad thing if the game is meant for the casual crowd. It's just odd to see this attempt coming from a developer with the legacy Capcom and their fighters have.

Can you link this post?

 

[Skilletor]

Can you link this post?

It wasn't a post. I hang out on IRC and he was talking about it in #capcom. I'll see if I have the log.

 

[Glix]

DLC gems? WTF?

That is a BAD idea.

 

[GotchaForce]

Right now its all speculation. No one has played yet with the gems nor do we know if theyre overpowered or not. Also the gems that come with the pre orders could be garbage or banned if necessary. We just have to sit and wait till we know more. And what the fuck does Mr.Wizard know? Has he actually played the game with the gems in it?

This. We don't know fully how the gems will be implemented into a real match. If they are balanced, then I'm thinking the pre-order ones won't be that big a deal. Say you got a gem that ups strength a certain amount on 3 hits. What if one gives you more, but you have to take 5 hits? That's my guess how the pre-order or harder to obtain ones will be. We also know there are going to be pre-made gem sets. Maybe there will be a tourney mode with pre-made gems settings (like Isms).

It's a really cool idea to differentiate teams and get more theory into the game, but it also in a way seems as if Capcom didn't think the core game was good enough. I think tag battles and Tekken characters in Street Fighter alone would've been cool enough to get everyone into it.

I hope it all comes together and it's as big as SF4 and MVC3 but with all these systems they keep adding on it becomes this huge juggling act.

 

[sleepykyo]

I don't think SFvsTK will draw large numbers given the initial hate.

MK9 will lose players to SC. I think it's got a chance of making it, but under 50%.

I think SF v. TK will probably still get solid numbers just for being the new game.

MK9 isn't going to lose players to SC. For one thing the two are fundamentally different and anyone who hasn't been turned off by MK9's core mechanics aren't going to be turned off by Evo.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I don't think he meant gameplay wise. I think he meant in quality.

If by quality, he means the balance of different fighting systems vs. just cut and pasting whatever mechanic you think might be cool and seeing what sticks, then I whole heartely agree.

there are way too many options, even before you count the gems, for each character to be fairly balanced against each other.

that said, i still think it is going to be a excellent game and im looking forward to it. Im just very wary of it being played at a tournament level.

 

[SamVimes]

Mr. Wizard hates this game a lot. He compared it to CFJ.

I thought Gems in MSH were awesome. I don't know why we can't get something like that. My problem with the game is capcom saying that Disparity in skill level and throw techs are a problem.

Doesn't the image says that disparity at high skill level is a problem? Maybe talking about skewed matchups?

 

[LegatoB]

Doesn't the image says that disparity at high skill level is a problem? Maybe talking about skewed matchups?

Their response to the "skill level disparity" issue was the auto-block and auto-throw-tech gems.

 

[Caj814]

Even if there is a successful scene for the game, gems won't magically make you beat players that are better than you in the long run.

 

[Slamtastic]

DLC gems? WTF?

That is a BAD idea.

No, exclusive to Collector's/Pre-Order/Retailer ones are. If everyone has the option to buy them, then it's fine.

Please switch back to Super because i don't have $20 for AE.

 

[SamVimes]

Their response to the "skill level disparity" issue was the auto-block and auto-throw-tech gems.

If you even think for a second that those gems would make you win against a better player (hell, even a player who's slightly worse than you) then you never played a fighting game with a meter bar.

 

[Tizoc]

Why is everyone making such a big deal about DLC gems? If you don't want it don't get it. Until I know what these DLC gems are I won't bother purchasing them

Spoiler

...and even if I did, I might STILL not buy them; I unlock gems anyway so why spend money on them?

 

[SamVimes]

Because preorder and pay dlc (not cosmetic dlc, of course) are bad for competitive games.

People just shouln't have put up with the shit Capcom pulled with MvC3 and straight up ban the DLC characters.

 

[Tizoc]

Because preorder and pay dlc (not cosmetic dlc, of course) are bad for competitive games.

As far as characters are concerned, I can understand that, but I feel that these DLC Gems are already in the game, and the DLC is to unlock them from the start.

People just shouln't have put up with the shit Capcom pulled with MvC3 and straight up ban the DLC characters.

How many Jills and Shumas were in MvC3 during EVO anyway? BBCS2 had 3 DLC characters and 1 character u had to unlock by playing through the game, yet I think at least 1 of them were used in EVO.

 

[Hitokage]

How many Jills and Shumas were in MvC3 during EVO anyway? BBCS2 had 3 DLC characters and 1 character u had to unlock by playing through the game, yet I think at least 1 of them were used in EVO.

Or unlocked through DLC that cost a buck or two.

 

[Tizoc]

Or unlocked through DLC that cost a buck or two.

Yeah, forgot to mention that lol.

 

[SolarPowered]

How many Jills and Shumas were in MvC3 during EVO anyway? BBCS2 had 3 DLC characters and 1 character u had to unlock by playing through the game, yet I think at least 1 of them were used in EVO.

I don't know how many Valks there were at EVO, but I think there were a couple of them. There are tons of Makotos though and Mu-12 definitely sees a lot of use too.

Platinum had only been out for a short while in America so I'm not surprised that she didn't show up. She looks very solid and fun to play with though.

 

[lupinko]

People should stop comparing these gems to the ones in MSH. Since you know you can disable the gems in MSH, also the gems in MSH were limited and were only one time uses (also not exclusive to the character as you can knock them off your opponent if not activated).

Having Magneto use the Space gem to get infinite forcefield or Blackheart using Reality gem to disappear and throw even more shit on the screen is fun.

This parry/autoblock/extra stat/COD BS is stupid.

 

[LegatoB]

If you even think for a second that those gems would make you win against a better player (hell, even a player who's slightly worse than you) then you never played a fighting game with a meter bar.

I didn't say they would be inherently effective, I said that they were clearly designed as comfort for less-skilled players, and were certainly presented as such at the NYCC panel reveal.

 

[Skilletor]

People should stop comparing these gems to the ones in MSH. Since you know you can disable the gems in MSH, also the gems in MSH were limited and were only one time uses (also not exclusive to the character as you can knock them off your opponent if not activated).

Having Magneto use the Space gem to get infinite forcefield or Blackheart using Reality gem to disappear and throw even more shit on the screen is fun.

This parry/autoblock/extra stat/COD BS is stupid.

I'm not comparing them. I said I wish they were comparable.

Is there a parry gem? lol

 

[ihearthawthats]

This parry/autoblock/extra stat/COD BS is stupid.

autoblock doesn't even sound like a good gem to use at all. it costs meter. put them in a frame trap = they block they lose meter or they try to attack they get counterhit into free combo.

and is parry really 100% confirmed? you sure you're not getting mixed up with umvc3s card mode which has a parry. if not, i'm sure there will be certain conditions such as it also costs meter or that the recovery frames won't allow a free punish.

sure gems may sound lame, but they said they were balancing the game around it. i highly doubt they're going to really make a gem so powerful that it is an auto-win. if they do, it will probably be an oversight and may be patched out.

 

[lupinko]

No, I was just throwing out random system directions/stats in the fit of pointing out things.

 

[enzo_gt]

People should stop comparing these gems to the ones in MSH. Since you know you can disable the gems in MSH, also the gems in MSH were limited and were only one time uses (also not exclusive to the character as you can knock them off your opponent if not activated).

Having Magneto use the Space gem to get infinite forcefield or Blackheart using Reality gem to disappear and throw even more shit on the screen is fun.

This parry/autoblock/extra stat/COD BS is stupid.

Shots fired at Heroes & Heralds.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

I understand this, yeah. Thing is, fighting games aren't all one game; unlike Baseball, say, there are many different variations of the same theme with their own rules. A fighting game "athlete" is a bit more subdivided and specialized than someone who plays a sport where there's only one official form of the game.

Each fighting game is more like its own sport, though. The parrying skills and knowledge that someone learned in SFIII are almost completely useless in SFIV, and that's ostensibly a direct sequel! That's a huge disincentive for players to invest time and it happens as a matter of course. Mechanics are added and subtracted with no long-term plan in mind by the developers.

I'd argue that a fighting game player now tends to be more subdivided and less specialized - a jack-of-all/master-of-none, which lowers the quality of play. I don't want to watch a baseball game played by two teams composed of people spreading their time over three sports, each of which overhauls its rules every 18-24 months; I want to watch a baseball game composed of two teams full of people who specialize in baseball in which the rules are as stable as possible.

Fighting games allow for more dabbling than professional sports - hell, there is a good deal of utility to be had in acquiring skills from other games - but there is too much change for the sake of change (read: publisher wants a new feature implemented in a sequel so that the product is sufficiently differentiated from the predecessor).

And that can be a strength, I'd say... it means that fighting games CAN experiment without destroying the sport (if you want to call it that). People have turned games like Third Strike into enough of a regulated sport.

And that only happened in Japan because those players have not fully invested their time into newer games in order to focus on Third Strike. Same thing with Super Turbo over there and MvC2 over here. They had to subvert the desires and/or indifference of publishers. Consequently, all three of those games are way more interesting now than they were at launch. Too bad that the audience has shrunk to relatively negligible levels for all three games.

What gets me is the sheer scorn and derision (let's call it the Smash Reaction) to any fighting game that appears and doesn't explicitly follow a set of invisible rules people have made up. A lot of people seem to react not just with "this doesn't interest me"... or even disappointment. Goes way beyond disappointment. Fighting game players are interesting in that they seem to feel they have ownership of the genre and approval over what even gets called a "fighting game".

I know some gamers like that in other genres; I've seen a few people who will insist that all racing games should be Gran Turismo and anything that isn't "serious" like it may as well not even exist. Most of the time, they seem a minority who get laughed at or ignored. In the FGC though, that attitude seems a lot more common, possibly even dominant.

I think a large portion of that is the belief of segments of the audience that a given game got certain elements right. When they encounter a subsequent iteration that deviates from those elements, they are understandably upset because they know that a large portion of the community is going to move to the next shiny thing. The goal of a developer is to optimize their profitability, everything else runs a distant second.

I don't see any reason to believe that the developers have the community's interests in mind to any meaningful degree. Likewise, I don't think they understand how to make fighting games accessible. Reality is that the current success of SFIV is still a pale shadow of the success of SFII, despite the fact that the US population has increased by ~50 million in the intervening years and the industry itself is much larger. Capcom is always running its mouth about accessibility, but completely ignores just how simple and accessible the most popular iterations of SF were. They fixate on the handful of loudmouths whining that they can't do a DP, rather than the silent majority who were drawn to the "simple to learn, but difficult to master" formula of the CPS1 iterations. Developers talk out of both sides of their mouths.

Bottom line is that optimizing games for competition is not compatible with the established business model of console publishers. Accordingly, console publishers don't optimize their games for competition.

 

[Slamtastic]

Only partially related, but now that you mention parrying, there should be a character in a fighting game that has a super that enables parrying for its duration.

That would be pretty hype.

 

[enzo_gt]

Only partially related, but now that you mention parrying, there should be a character in a fighting game that has a super that enables parrying for its duration.

That would be pretty hype.

Not really when it would only encourage turtling and laming for it's duration, and even still that'd be an odd thing to spend meter that can go towards damage on. Unless the duration is like, the rest of the game/set.

 

[Skilletor]

Shots fired at Heroes & Heralds.

Heroes and Heralds is done the right way. Completely optional.

 

[histopher]

What happened to the good old handicap feature???

And btw, over at SRK we got some news that Cody and Guy are not in the initial roster. It sounds like they are DLC, but it's possible they could also be 'bought' in game or something.

 

[Hitokage]

Heroes and Heralds is done the right way. Completely optional.

Yeah, it's like playing with Unlimited characters in Blazblue. Totally broken but fun to have around on the side.

 

[Flying Wonkey]

And btw, over at SRK we got some news that Cody and Guy are not in the initial roster. It sounds like they are DLC, but it's possible they could also be 'bought' in game or something.

We have to pay bail now? Oh it was from that oracle guy again............

Only partially related, but now that you mention parrying, there should be a character in a fighting game that has a super that enables parrying for its duration

Spoiler

Jin Kazama with parries always available, no need to trigger super

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Each fighting game is more like its own sport, though. The parrying skills and knowledge that someone learned in SFIII are almost completely useless in SFIV, and that's ostensibly a direct sequel! That's a huge disincentive for players to invest time and it happens as a matter of course. Mechanics are added and subtracted with no long-term plan in mind by the developers.

I'd argue that a fighting game player now tends to be more subdivided and less specialized - a jack-of-all/master-of-none, which lowers the quality of play. I don't want to watch a baseball game played by two teams composed of people spreading their time over three sports, each of which overhauls its rules every 18-24 months; I want to watch a baseball game composed of two teams full of people who specialize in baseball in which the rules are as stable as possible.

Fighting games allow for more dabbling than professional sports - hell, there is a good deal of utility to be had in acquiring skills from other games - but there is too much change for the sake of change (read: publisher wants a new feature implemented in a sequel so that the product is sufficiently differentiated from the predecessor).


And that only happened in Japan because those players have not fully invested their time into newer games in order to focus on Third Strike. Same thing with Super Turbo over there and MvC2 over here. They had to subvert the desires and/or indifference of publishers. Consequently, all three of those games are way more interesting now than they were at launch. Too bad that the audience has shrunk to relatively negligible levels for all three games.


I think a large portion of that is the belief of segments of the audience that a given game got certain elements right. When they encounter a subsequent iteration that deviates from those elements, they are understandably upset because they know that a large portion of the community is going to move to the next shiny thing. The goal of a developer is to optimize their profitability, everything else runs a distant second.

I don't see any reason to believe that the developers have the community's interests in mind to any meaningful degree. Likewise, I don't think they understand how to make fighting games accessible. Reality is that the current success of SFIV is still a pale shadow of the success of SFII, despite the fact that the US population has increased by ~50 million in the intervening years and the industry itself is much larger. Capcom is always running its mouth about accessibility, but completely ignores just how simple and accessible the most popular iterations of SF were. They fixate on the handful of loudmouths whining that they can't do a DP, rather than the silent majority who were drawn to the "simple to learn, but difficult to master" formula of the CPS1 iterations. Developers talk out of both sides of their mouths.

Bottom line is that optimizing games for competition is not compatible with the established business model of console publishers. Accordingly, console publishers don't optimize their games for competition.

Seriously, This is one of the best posts on the current state of affairs Ive read, especially the bolded

I miss the days when being into street fighter didn't mean you knew framerate data or what the hell a 369 motion was.

Now you are either a scrub/casual or Forum retard/pro gamer.

Somehow SFII managed to grab a middle ground, people who liked the game enough to try a master it, but didn't take it as serious as people do today.

Capcom really need to go back the drawing board and figure out what it was that drew people in in the first place, instead of lowering the barriers of entry so low.

 

[Kimosabae]

Seriously, This is one of the best posts on the current state of affairs Ive read, especially the bolded

I miss the days when being into street fighter didn't mean you knew framerate data or what the hell a 369 motion was.

Now you are either a scrub/casual or Forum retard/pro gamer.

Somehow SFII managed to grab a middle ground, people who liked the game enough to try a master it, but didn't take it as serious as people do today.

Capcom really need to go back the drawing board and figure out what it was that drew people in in the first place, instead of lowering the barriers of entry so low.

I'd a appreciate if you considered a post I made in this thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448373

Yet people will still ignore that to discuss particulars.

I don't want to come across as too self-important (like I always do), but suggesting this game or that game: is a waste of time, and doesn't further the discussion at all. All competitive games - meaning, any game predicated on players being opposing forces and not cooperative forces - can and will develop a competitive barrier of entry if there are lucrative incentives driving players to compete.

Street Fighter series, Marvel Series, Guilty Gear Series, Smash Bros. series, Tetris, Soulcalibur series, MTG, Rock Paper Scissors, Tic Tac Toe, Jax, Football, Baseball, Basketball, Cup-Stacking, Spelling Bees, Curling, Jump Roping, Pog, Dice, Dominoes, Concentration, Go Fish... I could go on and on...

...all of these games have niche competitive scenes that have developed complexed systems of winning that would be both observable and unobservable to the untrained eye and have made into veritable sports to a minority.

Of course, outside the obvious 3, the average person would not even consider viewing most these games as sports, because they aren't funded by large corporations, turned into leagues and planted into a country's consciousness as a norm through exposure, through schools and advertising.

The OP's problem is one of the biggest facing the genre, IMO: how do we get people to embrace these games and enjoy them without feeling inadequate due to their increasing exposure to enthusiasts? If we can agree Fighting Games haven't gotten much less intuitive, fundamentally, since their inception: we should be able to agree that the average person had no problems embracing them during their explosion in the 90s.

This affliction doesn't seem to effect RTS and FPS crowds and I believe this is due to the robust Single Player offerings those genres have attached them - something fighting games have yet to establish.

I believe it truly is similar to social stratification in a broader society. Social stratification breeds feelings of inadequacy, self-contempt and hopelessness in individuals in a society that cannot meet it standards and is given a sense of permanence because it is institutionalized. The source of their discontent goes unchecked, because they've failed (for myriad reasons) to analyze and internalize the potential source. Obviously, the Fighting Game Community - encompassing all those who play fighting games, casually or competitively - isn't as institutionalized, but it seems to breed the same neuroses-like behaviors.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I'd a appreciate if you considered a post I made in this thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448373

I recalled reading that comment and My first instinct is again the same.

The biggest problem is there is just as much a barrier between enthusiasts and general fans as there is general fans and casuals.

The problem with these type of discussion is the person who is dedicated enough to play a game for a few hours every week, knows the battle system well enough to beat the computer on the higher difficulties and can embarsss a few friends goes ignored.

He isn't hardcore enough to hang out on SRK with really dedicated players, but finds being called a "casual" offensive, because he has dedicated time to learn the game and is fairly competent at it, at least at the fundamental levels.

Furthermore, I don't think there is real issues with feelings of "inadequacy, self-contempt and hopelessness" There are plenty of players like myself, who understand what it takes to get that good at a fighting game and just cant justify the time and dedication. I don't feel inadequate by the likes of Justin wong or diago, anymore than Micheal jorden or ronaldo.

I have been playing fighting games since SF1 and can jump into any game and be wrecking shyt within 30 mins, but im never going to take home any trophies or even be higly ranked online..my level of interest and dedication just will never be enough to achieve that and I accept it.

But at the same time, just because I don't know every estoric notation or have no idea of some of the deeper techniques are in a game, i am not a scrub/casual.

what im trying to get at is, your ideas are sound, but I think you need to expand on the different levels of enthusiasts before you can make a general assessment of the situation.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

He isn't hardcore enough to hang out on SRK with really dedicated players

SRK is so hardcore.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

SRK is so hardcore.

For me, it is. Im sure there are worst places, but for me that is one of the worst offenders of FG elitism and arrogance to anyone who doesn't dedicate 4 hours every day in training mode.

 

[Skilletor]

For me, it is. Im sure there are worst places, but for me that is one of the worst offenders of FG elitism and arrogance to anyone who doesn't dedicate 4 hours every day in training mode.

I could say the same thing about GAF and something like the Master Race, or "hivemind."

But that would be silly. SRK isn't an entity and neither is GAF.

 

[kunonabi]

If Capcom wants to get the casual fanbase into it they should follow MK's example instead of just adding system after system.

Capcom used to do really fun things like the meaty story modes,create-a-character,board game stuff in Rival Schools or world tour in SFZ3. Heroes and Heralds is good move for UMVC3 but a well-designed and extensive story mode would be even better. Legit unlockables would go even further but Capcom is just too content to just make all that stuff DLC.

Presentation goes a a long way with getting casual players players interested. A large portion of the KoF just loves the character designs, rich backgrounds, and music that the series is know for. Capcom just doesn't get that anymore. A bare bones arcade mode and trials really don't get people excited, a cool cutscene with Kazuya and Ryu loaded with fanservice does. The best part about that is you don't have sacrifice the game engine and tourney viability to incorporate it either.

I'm fine with practice and versus modes but the vast of majority of people aren't.